Document verification - POLL

[chayton]

I know this has come up several times but I couldn't find a poll. I just wanted to find out what the percentages are.

If you had the opportunity to change the way casinos handle verification documents, would you vote for mandatory pre-approval or leave things as they are?

EDIT: Ran out of space on the poll, but the first option (As is) also should include that if you want your docs approved before playing, you can always contact the casino to do it.

 

[P.V.]

I voted no before reading your message below.

I think it should be the players preference whether they want to be pre-approved or during the withdraw.

Of course this is for hard doc. verification, doesn't include internal data base checks during auto. registration, or additional back ground checks after the fact.

 

[Dangerous53]

Definitely before withdrawal, sometimes I will sign up to a casino and not like it after a small deposit. If I don't plan on returning to play there, why would I send in docs?

One pet peeve I have is the speed they pay out at, when I deposit with moneybookers. I guess they can't grasp the concept of the slower they pay, the less I'll play.

 

[chayton]

Definitely before withdrawal, sometimes I will sign up to a casino and not like it after a small deposit. If I don't plan on returning to play there, why would I send in docs?

Especially if it's a new casino - imagine if someplace like JH or one of those other rogue casinos that's popped up in the last few years had your info...? After all, the really scummy rogue casinos don't balk at selling email addresses, imagine what could they do with your name and address and CC numbers!

Actually there was once a casino I wanted to try, I can't remember which one it was, but it was one of those that you play in your browser (no download) and you had to enter a CC number to even sign up. I contacted them and said, "I don't use credit cards to gamble, I'll be using moneybookers or neteller only." They said it didn't matter, they still wanted a credit card number to even open an account. Maybe I'm paranoid but that sounded fishy to me, so I said no thanks.

I'd probably trust the casinos on the accredited list here to send docs for preapproval though - but if I wasn't depositing with a credit card and they asked for one anyhow I'd find it peculiar too.

 

[Nifty29]

Quick question chayton......did u want everyone to see who voted for what for a reason? Just wondering as it's unusual.

 

[chayton]

Quick question chayton......did u want everyone to see who voted for what for a reason? Just wondering as it's unusual.

Thanks Nifty, I didn't know that I had. I must have done something wrong when I set it up, this is only the second poll I've ever done so I'm kinda lame at it.

Does it matter, do you think? Will anyone care if everyone can see which way they voted? If anyone does maybe we can get one of the mods to change it, I don't think that I can...or can I?

 

[H1_Roller]

A. I prefer to send Docs when they are requested.

 

[felicie]

Before deposit would mean every dang crap casino would have my docs too so I'd rather have it remain as is but I never waited till a win to send them except when the win was immediate which was twice.
I'm trying to decide now if I should renew my docs at the few choices we have or just hang for awhile.
Thanks chayton

 

[greasemonkey]

If we truly had the choice here wouldn't you rather send in your docs and get approved PRIOR to playing rather than having them go through your info with a fine toothed comb looking for any loophole NOT to pay you? Plus the delay that adds to an already slow process seems silly. If they want to inspect you before paying you then they should inspect you before accepting money from you. It seems clear to me that you give them much power by deflecting docs until cashout rather than having them commit to you as a player prior to getting your money.

 

[H1_Roller]

If we truly had the choice here wouldn't you rather send in your docs and get approved PRIOR to playing rather than having them go through your info with a fine toothed comb looking for any loophole NOT to pay you? Plus the delay that adds to an already slow process seems silly. If they want to inspect you before paying you then they should inspect you before accepting money from you. It seems clear to me that you give them much power by deflecting docs until cashout rather than having them commit to you as a player prior to getting your money.

I agree with your point, I would just be a bit funny about giving my personal information to every single casino I register at before I know if I'm going to remain a player there.
But it's a double-edged sword because I often find it odd that certain casinos will happily accept countless deposits from me day after day without batting an eyelid, yet put the barricades up as soon as I request a withdrawal. The very same casinos will actually still accept further deposits whilst a withdrawal is 'pending verification' (I've tested it out).
They need ID to pay me, but not to get paid BY me....

 

[luarod]

poll

I don't like my docs flying around the web. I prefer to send them when they request me to do it. Although I have to agree that if you are preapproved there will be less "getting the money" problems.

 

[brucake]

I would rather have my docs flying around than my money being on hold. It is no contest for me. Accept prior to taking money. Anything else is wrong. You should not give these casinos power to back out of paying you should they choose to find some obscure detail odd. If they accept money and accept your bets then they should pay. Period.

 

[Repro]

I think security checks are done very intensive these days and most of it already happens when a player signes up. They verify/check for double streetnames/zipcodes/etc but also ip-adresses/macadresses. Most of the crap/abusers SHOULD be filtered this way before the player even opened a game.

With this in mind i think it's not needed to ask for docs before a cashout and even than i think docs should only be asked in case of realistic doubts about the player OR a law that demands it in some countries.

I mean, why did i never had to send in docs at 32RED and 3DICE ? It's because they did a check and found that i really was a new player. On top of that i deposit with NETELLER so all the id-checks have already been (intensively) done.

 

[felicie]

If we truly had the choice here wouldn't you rather send in your docs and get approved PRIOR to playing rather than having them go through your info with a fine toothed comb looking for any loophole NOT to pay you? Plus the delay that adds to an already slow process seems silly. If they want to inspect you before paying you then they should inspect you before accepting money from you. It seems clear to me that you give them much power by deflecting docs until cashout rather than having them commit to you as a player prior to getting your money.

I guess as long as it is an accredited casino or referred to me by another player I trust then yes, I'd prefer to start playing with everything in order and be good to go. But then again, if a casino decides it can't pay you for some reason or another, your docs wont matter since they'll just find another reason or maybe even go so far as to fabricate a reason. They might even change their name 2 weeks later. oops sorry

 

[Nifty29]

Some good points here.

I think it is important to note that pre-verification doesn't necessarily mean that a cashout will be free of delays and scrutiny e.g. bonus requirements. It would also be an issue if the player decided to use another payment method.

The real problem isn't that pre-verification isn't doable, its that it would be incredibly time consuming and would turn away far more players than it attracts.....unless every casino adopts it simultaneously, which isn't going to happen. Considering that doc verification as it stands can sometimes take a day or two, you can imagine how long it would take if the casino was going through every players docs at once (which would happen at a new casino and upon implementation at an existing one). I'm not sure about anyone else, but I wouldn't be prepared to wait 2-3 days to make my first deposit.

The way things are now, the only players who have anything to fear from reputable operators are those who break the rules or try to run some kind of scam. In the case of the inetbet player in the other thread, there is no gaurantee that pre-verification would have uncovered the rule breach as the OP had previously used other methods (unless the casino does a lot of cross-checking which means even more delays).

I am yet to see a case where a genuine player who followed the rules at a reputable casino has had their winnings confiscated, which tells me that when it comes to verification and security screening it really is a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". People have to accept responsibility for their own actions and stop expecting everyone else to "stop" them from doing the wrong thing. If you think a rule is unfair, don't play. If you do play, then accept the consequences if you break it.

 

[felicie]

More good points. The time it would take to check and verify before deposit would be a pain to both player and casino. Maybe the next Poll should be 'Are you willing to hold off playing X amount of time while the casino verifies your docs?' I think most would go elsewhere. So we either wait before depositing or during a cash-out. Or do like me and send your docs thru right after your 1st deposit since by then I usually know if I'll be going back there or not. Geez, sometimes the more we talk about this stuff the better a land casino sounds.

 

[takethemoney]

I'd be in favor of a central doc site. You could upload all your stuff, update as necessary, then a casino could retrieve this info, once authorized with a PIN# from you.
This site, would, of course need to be secure. Frankly, I'd rather not have more documents in people's hands than was absolutely necessary.

I vote NO to the question.

 

[LHofsdal]

What I would like to see, as with many casinos they have sister sites, so they all use they same support, have 1 data bank for all of them. I have sisters site ask for documents already approved at another sister site and when I pointed out that they were already approved, I was told that the site asking for them doesn't have them and they need them.

I think if RTG had a data bank, Microgames had their own and all other platforms, this would do each of them a service, and cut down on the red tape and headaches.

LH

 

[felicie]

From their end they probably already have a central data base but from our end they want to appear independent of each other, otherwise we might only go to one instead of trying them all. just my opinion.

 

[Papa-ya]

I didn't vote as I am getting tired of this whole document thing. I can purchase and pay for anything, even my bills on the internet without having to send in a copy of my drivers license, front and back copy of my credit/debit card, recent utility bill.

I didn't even have to go through all this to open my bank account.

If I deposit with my debit card and win, then the only place the money should be paid back to is the means it came from. I know there are arguments against this thinking, but that is my opinion.

Over the years I have played at so many casinos and sent in docs and much of my info is at crappy casinos as well, including good casinos that went bad, casinos that closed to US players, casinos that just closed. If this document thing is not obviously ridiculous then I don't know what is.

I know we get manipulated in many things into thinking, "it's for your protection", but seriously, the more information I give, the less protected I feel and for online casinos? Just give me a secure means of depositing/withdrawing and let me protect the rest of my private information.

I can walk in a B&M, play all day, cashout and walk away and never have to show anything to prove I won fair and square.

The whole document thing is just outdated IMO.

 

[rockycatt]

its a what if game

ok what if player robs a bank takes cash and deposits it into his checking account
then he uses his debit card or purchases a prepaid makes a sizable deposite and plays,
wins , and cashes out

gets arrested makes the locale news paper bails himself out and keeps on playing
and cashing

hows a casino on line on a diferent continent going to police that

i voted yes oh and i play at casino's
including in the past the fortune lounge group with never documentation at all ever

ty RC

 

[chayton]

I didn't vote as I am getting tired of this whole document thing. I can purchase and pay for anything, even my bills on the internet without having to send in a copy of my drivers license, front and back copy of my credit/debit card, recent utility bill.

I didn't even have to go through all this to open my bank account.

If I deposit with my debit card and win, then the only place the money should be paid back to is the means it came from. I know there are arguments against this thinking, but that is my opinion.

Over the years I have played at so many casinos and sent in docs and much of my info is at crappy casinos as well, including good casinos that went bad, casinos that closed to US players, casinos that just closed. If this document thing is not obviously ridiculous then I don't know what is.

I know we get manipulated in many things into thinking, "it's for your protection", but seriously, the more information I give, the less protected I feel and for online casinos? Just give me a secure means of depositing/withdrawing and let me protect the rest of my private information.

I can walk in a B&M, play all day, cashout and walk away and never have to show anything to prove I won fair and square.

The whole document thing is just outdated IMO.

Totally agree that it's outdated. I'd love to see a more centralized and secure method of doing this. If you do it once and receive a pin number or something and you just enter that in when you make a withdrawal no matter which casino you play at. Even if it's just for the personal info, like your ID and proof of address - and CC or deposit/withdrawal methods could be done on a case by case method by the casino it's used at...?

To have to send everything over and over is not only annoying but it's also a huge security risk. With identity theft rampant as it is, sending your docs via email or fax could be an issue. Not that I'm all that worried for myself, anyone who wants my identity is welcome to it!

Also with all the hacking of supposedly 'secure' databases online these days, who's to say that your stuff is secure sitting in the casino database?

Thanks for all the input everyone!

 

[Papa-ya]

Totally agree Chayton.

In Nifty's post he pointed out also that it would be to time consuming to do the verification before allowing play, but I have to dissagree. When I think about the ongoing processing that is constantly going on anyways, it would be the same amount of verifying and same man power hours whether it's done prior to playing or upon withdrawal and every player will likely withdraw at least once.

As was pointed out by another poster, doing this verification upon withdrawal slows the withdrawal process down.

Verification, (which I still think is outdated nonsense), during a withdrawal is double tasking the finance department of the casinos, getting all docs, readable and verified and then working on the processing of the payment.

Also, how many players are asked to resubmit their docs again and again, because they aren't readable, or missed something, or wasn't received. We have read posts here where this has been an ongoing issue and I would imagine it's a bigger problem than we know.

 

[Nifty29]

Totally agree Chayton.

In Nifty's post he pointed out also that it would be to time consuming to do the verification before allowing play, but I have to dissagree. When I think about the ongoing processing that is constantly going on anyways, it would be the same amount of verifying and same man power hours whether it's done prior to playing or upon withdrawal and every player will likely withdraw at least once.

As was pointed out by another poster, doing this verification upon withdrawal slows the withdrawal process down.

Verification, (which I still think is outdated nonsense), during a withdrawal is double tasking the finance department of the casinos, getting all docs, readable and verified and then working on the processing of the payment.

Also, how many players are asked to resubmit their docs again and again, because they aren't readable, or missed something, or wasn't received. We have read posts here where this has been an ongoing issue and I would imagine it's a bigger problem than we know.

You didn't understand the point.

If we are talking about verification before a deposit, it means that EVERYONE will need to have their docs checked upon registration or at the time the policy is implemented. It means a deluge of documents all being submitted at one time, as opposed to a relatively small % of players who request their first withdrawal.

Imagine a casino with 10000 existing players that implements pre-verification. Let's assume 50% have been verified already at cashout time, that leaves 5000 emails to be sent at once saying "you may not deposit further until you submit docs etc" and a huge influx of documents to be carefully reviewed and approved. Absolutely unworkable. It's a great way to lose 50% of your players who will just go elsewhere.

Imagine a new casino now. It isn't uncommon to get thousands of new signups in the first week. I would think it would cause a delay of several days or a week to complete verification if you were lucky enough to get in early. A casino would be lucky to get off the ground. Again, absolutely unworkable.

Your statement about the man hours being the same is only partially true given that not all players cashout or have done at that point, but even if it were accurate we are talking about manhours that would normally be spread over months or years having to be done immediately.

I would be interested in some rough figures from an actual operator about how many verifications they do in a week.

Pre-verification is a good idea but as it stands it can't work, and won't work because operators know it would be commercial suicide.

 

[jstrike]

Great thread here, Chayton. I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier.

Felicie and others have raised some good points. Just paraphrasing -- from the player's perspective, there's a worry that a casino will find a way to screw you and/or not make withdrawals easy even if you pre-verify; that a lot of times you try a casino for a few bucks and never come back, and you don't want your docs floating around; that you can't always trust who you're handing your docs to. From a casino's perspective, that it would turn away players; that it won't necessarily mean instant withdrawals; that it doesn't prove the player is who they say they are anyway.

The thing is, all of these arguments about verification are just as true when a player wins and wants to withdraw. The only really good argument for waiting on it is if you just go to a place to lose, and never plan to come back, so you don't want them to have your docs. That's a legitimate privacy concern. But if you're ready to give someone your credit card and your money, which you'd have to show your passport to ever get back anyway, then showing them a passport up front seems trivial.

I think the only reason it isn't done is because no one wants to be the first to do it. So I'm gonna be the first to do it.

No one's really gone into the benefits of it much, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about it because StrikeSapphire has always planned to pre-verify depositors when we launch. I'm not worried about letting this out because no casino now is going to implement it, we'll be the first and only for a long time. So here are the good things about pre-verification:

1. Yes, it does mean we can guarantee hassle-free, rapid withdrawals. To any payment method, regardless of how the deposit was made. Other parts of our platform play into making this possible, so it's not necessarily just the pre-verification that makes it happen, but it would be impossible without it. No one should have to wait longer to withdraw than it took them to deposit. Basic ethics, basic good business: Don't take someone's money easily and then make it hard for them to get it back. And casinos wonder why they lose most players after the first few months. Mm?

2. We don't want minors, Americans or terrorists playing on our site. I'm not trying to equate those three things, but they're all just as bad for us. We can't be complicit in breaking any laws. It's too easy for a casino to be turned into a money laundering vehicle. It's too easy for some scrawny vegetable in an IRS office in Kansas City (yes, I know you guys) to deposit and then make a federal case out of it. We obviously can't cash players out if we can't verify their identity, so why the hell should we let them deposit if we don't know if we can cash them out anyway? It's more risk for us.

3. Radically reduced fraud and chargeback rates mean we can shower more bonuses on legitimate players.

4. Players are more likely to come back if they know we're dealing with them above-board, which means they should never be surprised by untimely requests for information. Pre-verification means everyone puts their cards on the table right up front. It lets the player know we're not trying to pull any crap on them. If a player doesn't want to do it, we probably don't want them on our site. Not to sound harsh, but if they have a reason to deposit without ever showing the ID they'd need to withdraw, then there's something wrong.

Again, the caveat to that last one is the privacy argument that Felicie put out there, and I think it's really valid. This isn't something a roguish casino could do. And it's not something a big casino would do. But if players know you're secure, trustworthy and not about to share their info, then it's really in their interests and the house's interests to clear everything up front. Especially if you want to create a safe, enjoyable, community environment for everybody on the site.

I'm against loss of privacy, though. And I don't think you should trust everyone. That's why I came up with something original. When we launch, I do want to pre-verify. But I don't care about a passport, a utility bill, etc. if I believe who I'm talking to.

No, our verification strategy is really simple (and I think they should do this in airports too, instead of all the bullshit with the shoes and the belts): I just want to talk to the players. Say hello, make sure they're regular people, they know we're regular people, and meet them face to face. After that, I'm not worried.

And just to point out, real-world casinos do this all the time. When I turned 21 I got carded more times than I can count at every place on the strip. Even now, Harrahs in New Orleans routinely checks ALL IDs at the door, not just kids. There's facial recognition software on the dome cams, and behavior specialists walking the floor in plain clothes. Real world casinos don't wait until they have a problem...

So I hear people saying, "yeah, but there they can check your id in person"...well, give us about 4 minutes on video chat, and we'll be able to let you in for life