Debates between moderators and forum members

[baldyj]

Gambling grumbles promote I.e make money from ROGUE casinos who are well known as ripping off GENUINELY honest players. IMO their integrity is ZERO.

The service they provide is an advertising tool designed to attract players to their ROGUE links. It's blood money plain and simple.

Casinomeister does NOT promote rogue casinos and will NOT advertise casinos that do the wrong thing.

I'll take CM every day, and twice on Sundays, over rogue-peddlers.

You know, this whole alicek thing seems almost personal to you....hmmm...

inetbet is Rogue. CM just opts not to call it that and protect them.

They were caught in several lies and then the thread is suddenly locked and buried while CM tried to divert attention. Luckily places like gambling grumbles have the morals to take them on honestly.

I know that you are super in love with this site but you should open your eyes just a bit, eh?
Why was the casino not made to verify their statements which were proved to be lies?
Why was cm trying to divert and minimize the lies?
why was the thread locked?
why was alicek locked out so that she couldn't tell her story here like was done at GG?
How can alicek in the complaint from GG be guilty of fraud since she used no bonus on her win and turned in her docs?
Why are you not curious about the lies but you are curious every time a player has a complaint as to find if they are lying?

It is quite obvious that something really stinks about the whole episode. Of course, CM doesn't wish to discuss it so we should just believe it without so much as a question. inetbet has several complaints against them at several sites. GG is one of the sites that have a bunch of complaints in against them.

 

[Casinomeister]

inetbet is Rogue. CM just opts not to call it that and protect them.

They were caught in several lies and then the thread is suddenly locked and buried while CM tried to divert attention. Luckily places like gambling grumbles have the morals to take them on honestly.

I know that you are super in love with this site but you should open your eyes just a bit, eh?
Why was the casino not made to verify their statements which were proved to be lies?
Why was cm trying to divert and minimize the lies?
why was the thread locked?
why was alicek locked out so that she couldn't tell her story here like was done at GG?
How can alicek in the complaint from GG be guilty of fraud since she used no bonus on her win and turned in her docs?
Why are you not curious about the lies but you are curious every time a player has a complaint as to find if they are lying?

It is quite obvious that something really stinks about the whole episode. Of course, CM doesn't wish to discuss it so we should just believe it without so much as a question. inetbet has several complaints against them at several sites. GG is one of the sites that have a bunch of complaints in against them.

Since you seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder - I'd would be willing to put a wager on you being connected to the PA fraud group - the one that hit up the EH group, Lock casino, Main Street, etc. Don't worry, I have a ton of notes I can go through and connect the dots. I'm not going to make any accusations here, but you clearly fit the profile of some banned members from PA. It's a Saturday, and I have better things to do than respond to trolls. But here I go...

The thread you are referring to was ChuChu's thread about whether or not he received some emails. It was a nine page slugfest that was derailed several times - all on the account of this alicek complaint. I closed it because it was going nowhere.

Alicek submitted a PAB here and we determined that she is connected to a fraud ring operating out of the UK. If you submit a fraudulent PAB, you are booted from the forum. We have strict rules about this. If she was so badly wronged I'm sure she would have emailed us by now. But since then (it's been a few weeks), not a peep.

Unfortunately, there is a small group of members (estimated in the single digits), that have a hair up their ass about this. This is the third thread that has been derailed - and moderating these amateurish juvenile outbursts is becoming tiresome.

Do it some more and see what happens

 

[LHofsdal]

I guess the key word here is "DEBATE".

In a debate there is not really the right answer, there are just opinions. Some of these opinions people believe so strongly, they think they are right. And because of this belief being so stong, they don't see the other side. Or maybe they DON'T want to see the other side. I guess in all reality, that is their right, but doesn't mean they are right.

If members here don't like the way things are run, by all means leave. This is a site that is voluntary, not mandatory. It is by free will that members post here. Because of this being a site that open, of course we are going to get shills, spammers and fraudsters. Nothing we can do about it, they only ones that can do something is the mods and owner to weed them out. Personally, I think they do a terrific job at doing so.

As for this site being "biased" to certain casinos, that is rubbish. If they were "biased" in any way, do you think this site would be here for over a decade? And be respected enough for casinos who have done wrong to ask to be taken of the rogue list? C'mon people think about it.

This thread was started because someone didn't like the way another member was treated, and that is fine, he had an opinion about the mods and owner not liking another member. He obviously felt that way and wanted to let us know why. Does it make him wrong? Does it make him right?

That is where the word "DEBATE" comes into play. The OP stated his opinion, and so did the mods and owner. Then other members stated their opinions and the OP had a chance to rebut it and so did the mods. How this turned into a slug fest about Inetbet and other casinos is beyond me. Everything other than the treatment of GM should not be discussed here.

Do I like Greasemonkey, yes I do. I think he has some valid points that he brings up, do I think he was mistreated? No. We are all adults here and honestly, if Greasemonkey can dish it out, he has to take it too. What really gets under my skin is people posting a "cover up". We all know that there are things behind the scenes that casinos can not let us see, why on earth would the mods and owner let us see this stuff? If they did breach the trust of any casino this site would have been gone a long time ago. We can sit here and debate casinos and the way this site is run until the end of time, but it comes down to trust and fairness of the mods. If they were not trust worthy or fair about members, disputes and everything else, this site would have vanished faster than some processors.

With all that being said, it is of my free will I am going to stop here, my blood is boiling and ask anyone that knows me, you really don't want me to blow a gasket.

LH

 

[greasemonkey]

slight derail... if that is still possible on this thread

If she was so badly wronged I'm sure she would have emailed us by now. But since then (it's been a few weeks), not a peep.

I have seen this said on a few occasions and it makes me curious. Why would you assume that someone would contact you via email after you have kicked them out of the forum and told them you don't believe them?
I personally would not bother contacting or ever coming here again if I was innocent and those things happened to me. I would guess most people are the same. Unless there was correspondence that we were unaware of or something of that nature.

 

[jetset]

I'd would be willing to put a wager on you being connected to the PA fraud group - the one that hit up the EH group, Lock casino, Main Street, etc. Don't worry, I have a ton of notes I can go through and connect the dots

Run for cover, I think someone may be about to be exposed

 

[baldyj]

Since you seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder - I'd would be willing to put a wager on you being connected to the PA fraud group - the one that hit up the EH group, Lock casino, Main Street, etc. Don't worry, I have a ton of notes I can go through and connect the dots. I'm not going to make any accusations here, but you clearly fit the profile of some banned members from PA.

Oh do I fit a profile do I? Wow. I realize that you noted you would not make an allegation yet until you could look over your notes but you are trying to discredit my argument with some stuff that is irrellevant. Not only that but it is VERY wrong. so you just muddied the waters and diverted attention away from the inetbet issue, whether on purpose or not. Still have not addressed inetbet lying either. I would be interested in your opinion on them lying about things on that thread.

I hope that in your investigations you are not so apt to assume someone is in a fraud group before you actually look into it. I know that you have this one dead wrong. Painfully wrong. methinks the same thing happened in the alicek situation.

 

[Casinomeister]

Oh do I fit a profile do I? Wow. I realize that you noted you would not make an allegation yet until you could look over your notes but you are trying to discredit my argument with some stuff that is irrellevant. Not only that but it is VERY wrong. so you just muddied the waters and diverted attention away from the inetbet issue, whether on purpose or not. Still have not addressed inetbet lying either. I would be interested in your opinion on them lying about things on that thread.

I hope that in your investigations you are not so apt to assume someone is in a fraud group before you actually look into it. I know that you have this one dead wrong. Painfully wrong. methinks the same thing happened in the alicek situation.

Bye-bye troll.

 

[Diane]

I have seen this said on a few occasions and it makes me curious. Why would you assume that someone would contact you via email after you have kicked them out of the forum and told them you don't believe them?
I personally would not bother contacting or ever coming here again if I was innocent and those things happened to me. I would guess most people are the same. Unless there was correspondence that we were unaware of or something of that nature.

I disagree. Most people would keep trying to prove their innocence. It's the silence and giving up that seems to reinforce that they were guilty.

If I was innocent, wrongly accused, and kicked out of CM -- you better believe that I would be emailing and protesting the situation to high heaven. I would keep going until it was clear that any further action wouldn't work. All we have is our good name -- I wouldn't slink away if I felt I was accused unfairly. Not by a long shot.

Diane

 

[greasemonkey]

I disagree. Most people would keep trying to prove their innocence. It's the silence and giving up that seems to reinforce that they were guilty.

If I was innocent, wrongly accused, and kicked out of CM -- you better believe that I would be emailing and protesting the situation to high heaven. I would keep going until it was clear that any further action wouldn't work. All we have is our good name -- I wouldn't slink away if I felt I was accused unfairly. Not by a long shot.

Diane

Whoa. That seems crazy from the way I think.

I wouldn't slink away at all either. I would actually go somewhere that I thought would help me though . Obviously if you are kicked out of the forum and cannot log in and you are told that CM will not help you, then you would be best served to go somewhere that actually would help you.
Why would you keep asking someone that is calling you a liar if you know that you are not? You would be wasting your time and you should go somewhere else for that help.

 

[jod5413]

Thank goodness we do not all think the same way, huh?

 

[bryand]

Gotta keep the singleness of purpose here

@greasemonkey - when you first started posting here I should have sent you a PM with a little insight about this forum based on my experience. But I'll share it here in hopes that it may help someone else down the road.

First I'll say that this site is far and away the best, most ethical and most respected of any online player's advocacy site. I have seen countless miracles regarding player disputes, not to mention calling out and weeding out corrupt players.

But you will get little or no love or respect on this board if the mods do not share your position on any given topic. You've been warned.

 

[jod5413]

@greasemonkey - when you first started posting here I should have sent you a PM with a little insight about this forum based on my experience. But I'll share it here in hopes that it may help someone else down the road.

First I'll say that this site is far and away the best, most ethical and most respected of any online player's advocacy site. I have seen countless miracles regarding player disputes, not to mention calling out and weeding out corrupt players.

But you will get little or no love or respect on this board if the mods do not share your position on any given topic. You've been warned.

Although the first part of your post is quite correct, Bryand, the last paragraph is a bit dramatic and not quite true. I have, and I am sure others will chime in, seen on many occasions where a different viewpoint was well received, even with no endorsement by "the mods"! GASP!! And many here are respected for their insights, not how they please or appease the mods. In fact, the mods jobs are simply to "keep things on an even keel", so to speak.

Just my opinion.

 

[jetset]

Although the first part of your post is quite correct, Bryand, the last paragraph is a bit dramatic and not quite true. I have, and I am sure others will chime in, seen on many occasions where a different viewpoint was well received, even with no endorsement by "the mods"! GASP!! And many here are respected for their insights, not how they please or appease the mods. In fact, the mods jobs are simply to "keep things on an even keel", so to speak.

Just my opinion.

I couldn't agree more...and I'm surprised that a respected and together member like Bryand would believe that agreement with the mods is a prerequisite here for a peaceful and productive posting life. I have personally seen many interesting exchanges where members and mods differ in perspective and opinion...without unpleasant consequences.

If I may offer my own perspective, I would suggest that the real trick here is to be reasonable and civil in discussing issues, even when you may have a conflicting view on a topic.

 

[Simmo!]

But you will get little or no love or respect on this board if the mods do not share your position on any given topic. You've been warned.

Let me rephrase that for you...

But you will get little or no love or respect on this board if the mods think you deliver your opinin on any given topic in a disrespectful, antagonistic or confrontational way. You've been warned.

Or put another way: behave respectfully, get treated respectfully.

IMO too many forum posters (on every forum, not just here) think that, because they are 'anonymous' or 'out of reach', they can treat other people and their opinions like shit with no repercussions. That's the real problem.

You can pretty much say what you want (within the forum rules!) as long as you say it politely, with a little humility or while showing respect for the opinions of those you are responding to. The minute you get aggressive, arsey, pissy, arrogant or obnoxious then BryanD is absolutely 100% correct.

-----

Bottom line is I go to a forum to learn, share, have interesting conversations and generally enjoy myself. I don't want to read a bunch of whiney, pissy, aggressive posts from people with agendas, points to prove, chips (sic) on their shoulder or grudges.

 

[maxd]

But you will get little or no love or respect on this board if the mods do not share your position on any given topic. You've been warned.

I think you are confusing "the mods position" with the Forum Rules. Even a casual tour of the forums would turn up a whole variety of circumstances and instances where the mods hold a different position on things than the forum members. In fact there are so many obvious instances of this that your statement beggars belief.

Anyway, as I say, if it the Forum Rules you're talking about then yes, falling afoul of them (especially if you do it intentionally) is good way to catch some stick. Other than that your claim is long on trollish hand-waving and short on facts, IMO.

 

[gaydave]

Guys, with all due respect, every single criticism here is met with dismissal and minimization. I really don't think some of you are taking what is being said at all seriously but it is how many feel. You can't just say "no your wrong" every time someone has an issue with the way things are handled can you? Not and be taken seriously can you?
obviously I like things about the site. I am still here and I still check in. That being said, I agree whole heartedly with bryand. Certainly people are treated differently here. Certainly it has much to do with how agreeable with max and bryan that they are. Some can be rude and crass while defending bryan/max and still be well received here. Others state opposition to something regardless of how calm they state it and are jumped on, silenced, threatened....etc.
Whether you think you are doing it or not isn't important. It is the perception of others and that is that you ARE doing it. Perhaps some could step back and take a harder look. It has been said enough that it must have some merit, right? Obviously many think it is fact, right? Perhaps just saying it isn't happening isn't the way to go. Maybe some looking at it from other's perspective is what is needed.

 

[Simmo!]

Whether you think you are doing it or not isn't important. It is the perception of others

A reasonable point in overall a reasonable post. I think though some people are going to get treated differently whether we want to, realise it or not, simply because you build up opinions of people and react accordingly. We all do it, mods included, because we are human and that's our nature.

I'd reiterate that for me personally, most of the issues faced are with how people post rather than what they post. As pointed out elsewhere, a good post often won't get fully appreciated if it's posted in a way that riles other people.

I just wish more posters would read back their own posts as if they were the recipient of the comments and see how they would react to it. They'd perhaps realise how it is going to rile/upset/antagonise and annoy people, not to mention damaging their own rep with those that just don't care about petty squables and bruised egos.

 

[Nifty29]

A reasonable point in overall a reasonable post. I think though some people are going to get treated differently whether we want to, realise it or not, simply because you build up opinions of people and react accordingly. We all do it, mods included, because we are human and that's our nature.

I'd reiterate that for me personally, most of the issues faced are with how people post rather than what they post. As pointed out elsewhere, a good post often won't get fully appreciated if it's posted in a way that riles other people.

I just wish more posters would read back their own posts as if they were the recipient of the comments and see how they would react to it. They'd perhaps realise how it is going to rile/upset/antagonise and annoy people, not to mention damaging their own rep with those that just don't care about petty squables and bruised egos.

I disagree.

It's not reasonable at all....its just another "I'm a hapless victim" whinge with some snide comments thrown in.

I don't hear any of these 'victims' offering to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.

If Gaydave feels he is being treated with less respect than others, perhaps he should go back over his posting history, where his lack of respect for the forum and its staff are very obvious. No, its not a personal attack or libel etc.....because its on the record and it is true.

 

[Simmo!]

I disagree.

It's not reasonable at all....its just another "I'm a hapless victim" whinge with some snide comments thrown in.

I don't hear any of these 'victims' offering to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.

If GAYdave feels he is being treated with less respect than others, perhaps he should go back over his posting history, where his lack of respect for the forum and its staff are very obvious. No, its not a personal attack or libel etc.....because its on the record and it is true.

I was responding to the sentiment behind the post, not the content. Of course I disagree with things like "every single criticism here is met with dismissal and minimization" and of course lines like "Not and be taken seriously can you" could be seen as "snide". But I have my opinions on stuff like that and I choose to keep it to myself. Plus those weren't the points I wanted to make something of.

Can you also be careful with referencing people's usernames Nifty - I'd hate for there to be an unfortunate misunderstanding.

 

[gaydave]

I disagree.

It's not reasonable at all....its just another "I'm a hapless victim" whinge with some snide comments thrown in.

I don't hear any of these 'victims' offering to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.

If GAYdave feels he is being treated with less respect than others, perhaps he should go back over his posting history, where his lack of respect for the forum and its staff are very obvious. No, its not a personal attack or libel etc.....because its on the record and it is true.

I believe that this post helps to illustrate a few of my points as well as some of the others. Thank you for that.

 

[jetset]

Like most things, surely it comes down to a matter of opinion?

Although GayDave and one or two others may feel aggrieved, and that it is wrong for other members to refute their claims of mod partisanship, it is imo absolutely in order for those other members to voice a different opinion that may be just as strongly held e.g. that the mods do not "pick on" some individuals.

All we can do as members is form and post a personal point of view, preferably in a polite and reasonable manner...we don't have to agree with other views critical of our hosts here. And we are imo right to say so.

Both sides are entitled to their opinions, which appear unlikely to change any time soon, and for that matter continued membership.

 

[Casinomeister]

Guys, with all due respect, every single criticism here is met with dismissal and minimization. I really don't think some of you are taking what is being said at all seriously but it is how many feel. You can't just say "no your wrong" every time someone has an issue with the way things are handled can you? Not and be taken seriously can you?

Actually, I welcome criticism; I don't dismiss criticism at all. Bear in mind there is a difference in how criticism is presented. A crass "you are all crooks and help people steal money" is not criticism. Questioning the validity of a rogue listing or accredited casino is. Much of the criticism over the years has been integrated into the site and has actually improved Casinomeister.

Certainly people are treated differently here. Certainly it has much to do with how agreeable with max and bryan that they are. Some can be rude and crass while defending bryan/max and still be well received here. Others state opposition to something regardless of how calm they state it and are jumped on, silenced, threatened....etc.

There are three moderators (Max, Simmo!, Webzcas) and one administrator (moi). This is not the bryan/max show; it's a forum with a load of members and four people who try to maintain the peace. You can agree with everything I say, make my coffee, and wash my car, but if you become troublesome and start wrecking the peace, then all that energy has gone to waste.

Whether you think you are doing it or not isn't important. It is the perception of others and that is that you ARE doing it. Perhaps some could step back and take a harder look. It has been said enough that it must have some merit, right? Obviously many think it is fact, right? Perhaps just saying it isn't happening isn't the way to go. Maybe some looking at it from other's perspective is what is needed.

Noted.

If GAYdave feels he is being treated with less respect than others...

That was really uncool. Please don't do that again.

 

[Casinomeister]

I have seen this said on a few occasions and it makes me curious. Why would you assume that someone would contact you via email after you have kicked them out of the forum and told them you don't believe them?
I personally would not bother contacting or ever coming here again if I was innocent and those things happened to me. I would guess most people are the same. Unless there was correspondence that we were unaware of or something of that nature.

I need to clear up a misconception here. When you submit a complaint via the PAB process, communication between Max and the person is strictly by email; the forum has nothing to do with it. When we deal with fraudulent complaints, we normally get zilch responses from the player when she or he is informed: "the casino has reason to believe fraud has been committed".

Wouldn't you fire back a response like "they are mistaken!" "they lie!" "I did no such thing!"? I know I would. 95% of the time we get nada - as in the case of AliceK. We never heard a word back from her, and we closed her account. Closing one's account does not forbid one from emailing us. They are always free to debate their issue via email.

 

[LHofsdal]

Or put another way: behave respectfully, get treated respectfully.

IMO too many forum posters (on every forum, not just here) think that, because they are 'anonymous' or 'out of reach', they can treat other people and their opinions like shit with no repercussions. That's the real problem.

You can pretty much say what you want (within the forum rules!) as long as you say it politely, with a little humility or while showing respect for the opinions of those you are responding to. The minute you get aggressive, arsey, pissy, arrogant or obnoxious then BryanD is absolutely 100% correct.

-----

Bottom line is I go to a forum to learn, share, have interesting conversations and generally enjoy myself. I don't want to read a bunch of whiney, pissy, aggressive posts from people with agendas, points to prove, chips (sic) on their shoulder or grudges.

I think Simmo hit the nail on the head here. That old saying "Treat people the way you would like to be treated" is so NOT used enough. Before I retired, I worked for a major retail chain for 21 years, and let me tell you, if I was nice to a customer and they came at me with an attitude, I gave it back. I did this for a few years, then thought to myself, there has to be a better way to let these idiots know they are idiots without being a "biatch". I came up with 51 ways to politely tell people they were idiots without ever saying the words "Your a damn idiot". Trust me they knew exaactly what I was saying too.

Even though we are reading what people are typing, the disrespect sometimes makes my mouth fall wide open. It is true that these forums can be a fantastic source of information, and a way to vent some frustration. It is also true we all have a right to have our own opinion. Why must it come down to a slug fest to be able to voice it? It is another thing to voice your opinion and why you feel that way and have someone right there to give you "smack" about your opinion.

Let me give you my opinion, if you like that is great, you don't move on,it is my opinion. But here is my opinion anyway...

This thread was started by Brucake, voicing here opinion on GreaseMonkeys treatment by the mods. He stated his opinion and then the mods stated theirs, nothing to harsh going yet. Then KABOOM some members came in with a not so polite jabs against casinos that really had nothing to do with the reason why this thread was started.

Members talking about threads being locked because the site is "biased" or trying to cover up crap. What the hell does that have to do with the way Greasemonkey was treated. Please someone fill me in on this one, because this highly educated women still can't figure it out.

When Simmo stated treat people respectfully, and that is the way you will be treated, he was 100% correct. Take any thread, I don't care what one it is, but look through it, and noticed if the post was polite, and not in a mean tone, the mods and administrator replied in the same manor. Hell, even when the thread turns ugly with member bashing member, they mods and administrator would chime in with something polite like "Hey lets keep this on topic and be cool about it" of something of that nature. (Good thing they have patience, because if it were me and I had to repeat myself, it would not be pretty.)

Greasemonkey is a big boy and I am sure he can look out for himself, but there is nothing wrong with asking why he was mistreated if you felt strongly about it. He still posts, and asks questions and I still continue to enjoy reading his posts, but the attacks on the mods, admistrator and other members is getting very tiresome. Unless someone comes on here and says something like "ALL YOU MEMBERS HERE ARE SUCH F'N IDIOTS TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT IS WRITTEN ON THIS SITE", then I can see people coming back at them like a raging bull, but when someone stats there opinion let it be, if you reply do it with repect and be polite about it. There is no sarcasism needed.

Get the drift of what I am saying here?

LH

 

[Simmo!]

Get the drift of what I am saying here?

Yup, it's...

Treat other people how you want to be treated yourself

Bang on