Debates between moderators and forum members

brucake

Banned User - player fraud - flaming troll
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Location
Kintston-upon-Thames
ahhhhhhhhhh, GreaseMOnkey. A popular poster, loved by many members detested by the mods.

Between this thread and the other that has spun off because of inet, Greasemonkey has made obvious and good points. He has been treated again very poorly as he usually seems to be regardless of the circumstances. Their is an obvious dislike of him by the mods. I happen to love his posts. I cringe everytime I see you people being "mean" to GM rather than embracing his thoughts and knowledge. Unless you have had past issues that I am unaware of then you have been grossly rude to gm for no apparent reason.

Why is he constantly told to be quiet or chill out or stop posting about a subject? Trying to silence him is not what many of us happen to desire. I happen to agree with him most often and would like him to post more often even as he is being shouted down by Bryan, nifty and a few others.

Why was he threatened with his membership for asking simple questions to inetbet that they have refused to answer in full?
Why was he warned to quit badgering when he simply asked for a direct and honest answer to finally determine who was and who was not being honest?
Why was this then squashed and lightly explained away?
Methinks THOU doth protesteth too much on inet's behalf. Those were good questions. inet is caught up in falsehoods. Shame on them. Don't protect them, shed the light on them.
What was meant by the bonus issue is moot?!!? It is surely not. They lied about it. Why do we accept their word for anything now? If the person was not using a bonus then she wasn't cheating the casino if her IDs are valid. This was a very poor way of handling that thread. Why in the world would anyone lock it if they are not trying to suppress information?
You warned gaydave for not being on topic then thanked inet for the same in the next thread. It is apparent that you are not being open minded or fair in your reactions.

It is apparent to level headed readers here, that something is wrong with the alicek situation and the handling of the thread. Also, that leads to questioning of the pab findings.

We all talk about multiple accounts when a fraudster is caught out. Or false ID or wrong age. Why is this being buried? Why arent basic questions answered?

this may very well be frustrating for bryan and max. it probably is. it is also very frustrating for readers trying to discern who is correct and who is wrong. it has become more difficult when threads are locked and questioners threatened. It is like an ancient tribunal. You are guilty and you just must believe, evidence be damned. yes, they lied but that is moot. ?

End Derail:
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Moved this from derailing another thread and titled it myself FYI.

ahhhhhhhhhh, GreaseMOnkey. A popular poster, loved by many members detested by the mods.

My thoughts: i don't detest him at all. Far from it in fact - colourful characters are what a forum needs. In fact I don't detest any user here. What I do hate is posts that are confrontational or disrepectful. I honestly can't remember if GM has ever fallen into that category but if he has, it's the posts I hate, not the poster.

Sure I might lose some respect for people who rant and rave without consideration for others but I don't hate them for it. I even stop reading those people's posts if the record gets stuck but hey, everyone's different. It's what makes a forum interesting. Until it gets personal. Then the fun's over.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
ahhhhhhhhhh, GreaseMOnkey. A popular poster, loved by many members detested by the mods...
Actually, I take offense at this comment - and have given an infraction to Brucake for posting troll comments.

I detest no one in this forum. To make comments like this tempts me to escort you to the door.

Admin note: renamed thread from Greasemonkey to "Debates between moderators and forum members"
 
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chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Actually, I take offense at this comment - and have given an infraction to Brucake for posting troll comments.

I detest no one in this forum. To make comments like this tempts me to escort you to the door.

I hope you wont do that Bryan. I have been here long enough to know the mods wont detest anyone but if there is a general feeling GM is disliked by the mods the best way would be to tolerate these views and let passage of time do the trick. GMmakes a lot of valid points but is sometimes confrontational in approach rendering his posts provocative in a way. However, in a sense, his strong sentiments do mean he cares for the forum hence his outbursts.
 

gaydave

Banned User - complete PITA
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Location
USA
I know I am a jerk when I am a jerk. I have done it and I know it. I just got back from a banning and I knew it was coming when I posted.

This is different though. I rarely catch GM being a jerk and it does appear that there is a different set of rules for his posts. Bryan has been sort of called out about being tough on him in the past. I thought it had been worked out but this whole inetbet issue resurfaced that tension. That whole scenario in the other thread was bizarre IMO. It didn't seem like an appropriate response to GM. I think GM is asking strong, pointed questions that deserved an answer. The response was, in fact, threatening towards him and he was basically told to shut up about it several times. Thats bull IMO. Then the thread was locked lol. Suppressing the whole issue further. :eek:

If anyone goes back and reads GMs posts, you will come away with the feeling that there is ill feeling about his posts from some mods. It is inescapable. Maybe CM doesn't dislike GM personally but he DOES get angry extremely often at his posts and lashes out with threats. That is from the political forums to the inetbet issue and going all the way back to the false accusation about GM's activities from Clubworld.
Regardless of what the truth may be, the appearance is a dislike of GM and I think it is unfair. I think he is treated unfairly often.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
As Bryan said earlier, it is the same people protesting about the same things.

The same people always going into bat for those poor ol' fraudsters that never get a fair deal. (Not saying GM is a fraudster before anyone goes off)

Anyway, the whole suggestion that mods treat some posters differently is a load of horse manure.
 

gaydave

Banned User - complete PITA
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Location
USA
As Bryan said earlier, it is the same people protesting about the same things.

The same people always going into bat for those poor ol' fraudsters that never get a fair deal. (Not saying GM is a fraudster before anyone goes off)

Anyway, the whole suggestion that mods treat some posters differently is a load of horse manure.

I have to kinda' agree with Nifty. It is the same people that question things. It is also the same people that constantly jump to the side of the casino and rail against the players. ALWAYS the same people do the same thing.

I disagree strongly that there is not different treatment. There was just given several examples of it in this thread. Since you labled it horse manure can you give examples of your point of view to match the examples of the other points of view?
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
If there is "different treatment" then it's subconscious. I also think it's kind of inevitable as some people help the forum and it's members while others don't. What I do know is that generally, as mods we try and apply the rules as evenly as possible. We miss some, we get some right, we get some wrong and some users get watched more closely than others when certain topics arise but that's no different to any forum with vocal posters.

Personally, if I was a member of a forum where I contributed and felt I was being singled out for ill treatment by the mods, I'd go somewhere else anyway so I'm sure those who are, do. Or maybe they are secretly masochists at heart :D

Edited to add: thinking about it more, I do tend to treat posters who are rude and disrepectful differently, so yes, you are right. But that isn't going to change :)
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I have to kinda' agree with Nifty. It is the same people that question things. It is also the same people that constantly jump to the side of the casino and rail against the players. ALWAYS the same people do the same thing.

I disagree strongly that there is not different treatment. There was just given several examples of it in this thread. Since you labled it horse manure can you give examples of your point of view to match the examples of the other points of view?

I must have missed something GAydave.

What examples?

The only thing I have seen is someone making baseless allegations against Bryan and Max, who are about as even handed as you can get, and being called out on it.

Who are you referring to about "railing against players"? I don't see it anywhere. I do see the same people putting their reputation into question by staunchly defending proven fraudsters who they don't even know from a bowl of soup (or do they?). All I know is that most of these people have had smoke around them at various stages, and you know what they say about the existence of smoke....

Again, as CM said, some things become more and more obvious about these people as time goes on.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Greasemonkey may on occasion be an acerbic or even abrasive poster, but his arguments are generally well researched and he is always prepared to back them with facts and consider an alternative viewpoint. For that reason I personally consider him to be a worthwhile contributor whose views I respect, if not always agree with.

The notion that the mods here "pick on" GM is to my mind unlikely.

What mods do correctly look for is posting conduct that is unnecessarily discourteous, belligerent, abusive, insulting, trolling, de-railing, fraudulent, drearily repetitive or reminiscent of lynch mob behaviour. Regrettably that occasionally surfaces here, and has to be dealt with for the health of the forum as a whole, and I think our mods generally do that with a light touch.

This is not a court of law, it's a forum where people exchange news and views of mutual interest.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Greasemonkey may on occasion be an acerbic or even abrasive poster, but his arguments are generally well researched and he is always prepared to back them with facts and consider an alternative viewpoint. For that reason I personally consider him to be a worthwhile contributor whose views I respect, if not always agree with.

The notion that the mods here "pick on" GM is to my mind unlikely.

What mods do correctly look for is posting conduct that is unnecessarily discourteous, belligerent, abusive, insulting, trolling, de-railing, fraudulent, drearily repetitive or reminiscent of lynch mob behaviour. Regrettably that occasionally surfaces here, and has to be dealt with for the health of the forum as a whole, and I think our mods generally do that with a light touch.

This is not a court of law, it's a forum where people exchange news and views of mutual interest.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Just to add -

brucake said:
We all talk about multiple accounts when a fraudster is caught out. Or false ID or wrong age. Why is this being buried? Why arent basic questions answered?
Maybe because the answers to those basic questions would enlighten those who are involved with the fraud ring on how they got caught - or what the casinos are looking at. It's a public forum - I know for a fact that the people who are involved in these fraud rings are watching these threads carefully, so I'm not going to divulge this info - period. I really don't think any casino rep would do the same either.

If this bothers you so much, well in my opinion - you're spending way too much time in front of the computer.
 

Seventh777

RIP Roy
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Location
Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
It`s a catch 22 situation, it may seem that the mods are on GM`s case with nigh on every post he makes, but, a high percent of his posts involve delicate situations etc, think of it like this, imagine a poster whose posts are always 100% whinging and moaning based (terribad loser), no sooner have they made a thread/post the mods are all over it waving their editing truncheons, this could be seen by some as `omg poor terribad has been censured once again, the mods really have it in for him`, which ofc is not the case, forum moderating is a thankless task, and the one saving grace I see is it has drove Bryan to drink ;).

You cannot please all the folks, all the time, no matter what the situation is.
 

gaydave

Banned User - complete PITA
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Location
USA
Just to add -


Maybe because the answers to those basic questions would enlighten those who are involved with the fraud ring on how they got caught - or what the casinos are looking at. It's a public forum - I know for a fact that the people who are involved in these fraud rings are watching these threads carefully, so I'm not going to divulge this info - period. I really don't think any casino rep would do the same either.

If this bothers you so much, well in my opinion - you're spending way too much time in front of the computer.


Well that is hard to understand. I don't think anyone is asking you HOW the fraudster gets caught. They are asking what the fraud charge is. A generic answer is fine but just saying "fraud" is not fine.
Was it mulitple accounts? Then the accused can respond. Was it bad documents? then the accused can respond. Just saying "fraud" is hard for critical thinking people to accept. Look, the fraudsters already know what they did. Saying "multiple accounts" for example is not going to give them any heads up. They already know it. Just don't tell them how it was found out. Regardless if you tell them what the charge is or not; a real fraudster knows what he did. Those that want to know what they did should be told. Not how it was found, just what the charge is.
A true pro fraudster will not stick around this forum arguing. They will be too busy going off to make try again. This is not worth it to them.

That is why the AlicK situtation is getting beaten to death on these boards and why many are unsatisfied with the answers (or non-answers) to the questions. She sent in her IDs. She didn't use a bonus. She couldn't have collaborated with others in the games. What was the fraud? Not HOW she was caught, but what was it?
Gambling grumbles agrees that it is not acceptable to keep her money.
Even if not one question about her charge is answered the other questions could have and should have been answered as they don't have anything to do with security.
Absolutely a solid definition of fraud needs to be in place. I would love to see what that term means to alicek as it is mindboggling at this point.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Well that is hard to understand. I don't think anyone is asking you HOW the fraudster gets caught. They are asking what the fraud charge is. A generic answer is fine but just saying "fraud" is not fine.
Was it mulitple accounts? Then the accused can respond. Was it bad documents? then the accused can respond. Just saying "fraud" is hard for critical thinking people to accept. Look, the fraudsters already know what they did. Saying "multiple accounts" for example is not going to give them any heads up. They already know it. Just don't tell them how it was found out. Regardless if you tell them what the charge is or not; a real fraudster knows what he did. Those that want to know what they did should be told. Not how it was found, just what the charge is.
A true pro fraudster will not stick around this forum arguing. They will be too busy going off to make try again. This is not worth it to them.

That is why the AlicK situtation is getting beaten to death on these boards and why many are unsatisfied with the answers (or non-answers) to the questions. She sent in her IDs. She didn't use a bonus. She couldn't have collaborated with others in the games. What was the fraud? Not HOW she was caught, but what was it?
Gambling grumbles agrees that it is not acceptable to keep her money.
Even if not one question about her charge is answered the other questions could have and should have been answered as they don't have anything to do with security.
Absolutely a solid definition of fraud needs to be in place. I would love to see what that term means to alicek as it is mindboggling at this point.

AFAIK there is always some reason given for someone being called a fraudster...at least at CM anyway. If the reason is "they are part of a fraud ring that uses several methods to cheat", then why do you have to know more than that? After all, you said the fraudster already knows what they did, they just want the casino to tell them how they caught them. The only reason I can see why anyone would want to know specifics of the case (besides the downright nosey) would be if they are involved in fraudulent activity themselves and want to know how to better prevent being discovered.

Gambling grumbles has their own agenda from what I've read...one of them being the attraction of players to the site. Just have a look at some of the sites they advertise:

Cool Cat
Prism
Cirrus
Palace of Chance

Getting the picture?

Casinomeisters PAB may not be 100% right 100% of the time, but they are 100% thorough and 100% honest. I'll take their judgement over rogue-promoters any day.

How do you know what a pro fraudster would do BTW? I wouldn't have the first clue myself.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... imagine a poster whose posts are always 100% whinging and moaning based (terribad loser), no sooner have they made a thread/post the mods are all over it waving their editing truncheons ....

I believe you are mistaken. We edit spam posts and (extremely occasionally) the most unconscionably vile abuse. I can't think of a single instance in the past four years (in other words since I started here at CM) where someone was edited simply because they were bitching and moaning.

In fact the only case I can think of where a post was edited for reasons other than spam or outrageous abuse was an edit I made on a post of Nifty's because I thought it would help keep the peace. I realised soon after that it was a BIG mistake to have done that and I do not expect to repeat it.
 

LHofsdal

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
NY
Just My Opinion

I personally feel that the Mods here do treat all members the same until they become rude, abusive or just a plain old jerk. I do enjoy reading GM's posts, and I agree, they are well thought out. But sometimes because we are reading and not actually hearing in person what the poster is trying to say, their posts can be misinterpreted.

With that being said, I think the Mods here do a damn good job in trying to keep the peace. All to often posters are offended by something some has said and they feel like they have to retaliate and go (excuse the expression) "Ape Shit" over it. When in all reality, it wasn't that big of a deal.

I personally have the utmost respect for the Mods here, they are big enough to admit they have made a mistake when it happens, and man enough to offer an apology. To me that says alot. I think they are fair and unbiased, but sometimes posters don't see it that way. Being in the gaming industry, many members are not privy to see alot of things that go on behind the scenes, and because of that, the posters and readers aren't always in the "know". Many people will jump right in and call something foul without all the facts. What everyone must realize is that there is always 2 sides to the story. Often times it later comes to light that we, the readers, did not get the full story and sometimes have been duped by their story.

GM is pretty straightforward, and some people my not like that about him, but that is just the way he is. If you don't like it, there is an ignore feature that in my opinion, is not used enough. I feel if that feature was used, there would alot less bickering and mud slinging on this forum.

Like I said, just my opinion.

LH
 

Seventh777

RIP Roy
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Location
Planet Tharg, dark side, where nothing grows.
I believe you are mistaken. We edit spam posts and (extremely occasionally) the most unconscionably vile abuse. I can't think of a single instance in the past four years (in other words since I started here at CM) where someone was edited simply because they were bitching and moaning.

In fact the only case I can think of where a post was edited for reasons other than spam or outrageous abuse was an edit I made on a post of Nifty's because I thought it would help keep the peace. I realised soon after that it was a BIG mistake to have done that and I do not expect to repeat it.

My bad I should have explained better, ie:- titles of threads that have been renamed due to <random casino is rogue because I didn`t get no free spins> type stuff, that`s what I meant ;).
 

gaydave

Banned User - complete PITA
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Location
USA
@LHofsdale,

I have to agree with you on one thing in particular. The mods are very "big" people when they mess up often times. It takes a certain personality to admit being errant and I have to agree that is a great quality that I see in them.
 

felicie

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
somewhere else
As long as greasemonkey remains a conservative, he will sooner or later be jacked up in every form of media he participates in and the smarter he is the worse it will be and that is the truth plain and simple.
And you are not a jerk gaydave.;)

Thank you brucake but you're already gone aren't you. :rolleyes:
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... titles of threads that have been renamed due to <random casino is rogue because I didn`t get no free spins> type stuff, that`s what I meant.

Ah yes, well, guilty as charged there. In the same way that a thread entitled "Seventh777 is a <nasty words here>", for example :D, would get edited so too will the occasional anti-casino rant thread title get edited down to something more acceptable. This usually happens where the thread title and contents are obviously intended to harass and bully the casino, such as your "random casino is rogue because I didn`t get no free spins" example, or are being used to blackmail the casino as in "Casino XYZ is Rogue!" and then the OP says something like "I'll update further here when they give my bonus/withdrawal/free gift/whatever." That's "personal agenda" stuff and has to be monitored pretty closely. But this is hardly "mods waving their editing truncheons", no?

Other than those two examples I can think of only one other instance where thread titles get edited: ALL CAPS. I will routinely and without apology knock an ALL CAPS thread title back to "Title Case". In other words "I HATE XYZ CASINO BECAUSE THEY SUCK!" will become "I Hate XYZ Casino Because They Suck" in a heartbeat. That said, something like "I HATE Casino Whatever" (typically) won't get touched.
 
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ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
Is this all really necessary? It's an us vs. them? Since when? Sheesh. YOU choose to come here amd post. You choose to gamble online. YOU choose which online casino to play at. YOU choose which bonus to use.

You are fortunate enough to have a place to come to to discuss with YOUR peers, your frustrations over payouts, game play, rogue casinos, good casinos. You have the PRIVILEDGE to have some extremely GENEROUS people who take THEIR time to go to bat for YOU when some casino decides you've broken some hinky T&C, you get tied up in some mess about unreadable verification documents, or whatever.

And what does it cost you when it comes time to PAB? Nada, nil, zilch, nothing, except for the few minutes it takes to read the rules for the PAB, and the few minutes it takes to fill out the PAB form. But for some of you I guess that just isn't enough. You're not always going to win every "battle" in life, and if you think you are you're very wrong. These little vindictive snipes against Bryan and Maxd make me sick and ashamed that you think they have it against certain people.

The constant derailment of threads, the kindergarten mentality of name calling and fingerpointing is tiresome, and the member bashing is just a turnoff. I used to look forward to coming here and reading threads, interacting, with what I thought were mature, rational adults, but not anymore.

There is very little learning, sharing and "good" debating about the online gambling industry here lately. I can go to any MSN or Yahoo forum and find the same kind of nonsense as is evolving here. This used to be a great place. You as members are the ones who can decide if it can go back to being that great place or if it will continue into the "National Enquirer" of the forum world...*just my opinion*
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
As long as greasemonkey remains a conservative, he will sooner or later be jacked up ....

You might want to have a closer look at the criticisms GM has received here at CM. Being a "conservative" is not among them, AFAIK, nor are any "conservative" policies or views he may hold.

The idea that "you punished that guy, that guy wears cowboy boots, you are picking on people who wear cowboy boots!" is (a) exceedingly weak logic and (b) is pointing you in a completely bogus direction if you are actually looking for the truth.
 
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Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Is this all really necessary? It's an us vs. them? Since when? Sheesh. YOU choose to come here amd post. You choose to gamble online. YOU choose which online casino to play at. YOU choose which bonus to use.

You are fortunate enough to have a place to come to to discuss with YOUR peers, your frustrations over payouts, game play, rogue casinos, good casinos. You have the PRIVILEDGE to have some extremely GENEROUS people who take THEIR time to go to bat for YOU when some casino decides you've broken some hinky T&C, you get tied up in some mess about unreadable verification documents, or whatever.

And what does it cost you when it comes time to PAB? Nada, nil, zilch, nothing, except for the few minutes it takes to read the rules for the PAB, and the few minutes it takes to fill out the PAB form. But for some of you I guess that just isn't enough. You're not always going to win every "battle" in life, and if you think you are you're very wrong. These little vindictive snipes against Bryan and Maxd make me sick and ashamed that you think they have it against certain people.

The constant derailment of threads, the kindergarten mentality of name calling and fingerpointing is tiresome, and the member bashing is just a turnoff. I used to look forward to coming here and reading threads, interacting, with what I thought were mature, rational adults, but not anymore.

There is very little learning, sharing and "good" debating about the online gambling industry here lately. I can go to any MSN or Yahoo forum and find the same kind of nonsense as is evolving here. This used to be a great place. You as members are the ones who can decide if it can go back to being that great place or if it will continue into the "National Enquirer" of the forum world...*just my opinion*

Couldn't have put it better myself. Would be nice to just have sensible adult discussions on issues without all the jibes and agendas but I guess gambling is just too emotional a subject for that.
 

brucake

Banned User - player fraud - flaming troll
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Location
Kintston-upon-Thames
AFAIK there is always some reason given for someone being called a fraudster...at least at CM anyway. If the reason is "they are part of a fraud ring that uses several methods to cheat", then why do you have to know more than that? After all, you said the fraudster already knows what they did, they just want the casino to tell them how they caught them. The only reason I can see why anyone would want to know specifics of the case (besides the downright nosey) would be if they are involved in fraudulent activity themselves and want to know how to better prevent being discovered.

Gambling grumbles has their own agenda from what I've read...one of them being the attraction of players to the site. Just have a look at some of the sites they advertise:

Cool Cat
Prism
Cirrus
Palace of Chance

Getting the picture?

Casinomeisters PAB may not be 100% right 100% of the time, but they are 100% thorough and 100% honest. I'll take their judgement over rogue-promoters any day.

How do you know what a pro fraudster would do BTW? I wouldn't have the first clue myself.

firstly, calling gambling grumbles rogue is ignorant as to what that site is. Take a minute and read the articles. He gives both sides a chance to state their cases then he reports it. Almost word for word. How that is rogue or dishonest is beyond me. I think you spoke prior to informing yourself. They are way more transparent then here.

secondly, nobody is asking HOW they got caught. NOBODY so quit saying it. You all keep saying "not gonna tell them how they got caught". Well great. Don't do that. That would be foolish. Nobody here is suggesting that. What they are suggesting is to know what the charge is. and as has been stated just saying fraud is not good enough, especially when it makes no sense.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
firstly, calling gambling grumbles rogue is ignorant as to what that site is. Take a minute and read the articles. He gives both sides a chance to state their cases then he reports it. Almost word for word. How that is rogue or dishonest is beyond me. I think you spoke prior to informing yourself. They are way more transparent then here.

secondly, nobody is asking HOW they got caught. NOBODY so quit saying it. You all keep saying "not gonna tell them how they got caught". Well great. Don't do that. That would be foolish. Nobody here is suggesting that. What they are suggesting is to know what the charge is. and as has been stated just saying fraud is not good enough, especially when it makes no sense.

Gambling grumbles promote I.e make money from ROGUE casinos who are well known as ripping off GENUINELY honest players. IMO their integrity is ZERO.

The service they provide is an advertising tool designed to attract players to their ROGUE links. It's blood money plain and simple.

Casinomeister does NOT promote rogue casinos and will NOT advertise casinos that do the wrong thing.

I'll take CM every day, and twice on Sundays, over rogue-peddlers.

You know, this whole alicek thing seems almost personal to you....hmmm...
 
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