Club World USA -- Proof of Full Time Employment?

[Nate]

Okay, Tom from CW says that this student term has always been there.

I quote from Club World Casino T&C's dated 27th December 2005

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater"

Next from the 7th of February 2006

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater"

Then from 2nd January 2007

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater"

and from the 7th June 2007

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full-time Students aged 21 years old and under that are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino"

and finally from the 8th of December 2010

"Players Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino"

*********************************************************
Always been the same?? It is quite evident that this has been chopped and changed over the years. If you want screenshots of the T&C's, I'll gladly post them.

Bryan / Max - With all due respect is Casinomeister advocating this injustice towards the player by not challenging Club World on the decision?

Nate

 

[jelsmith]

I quote from Club World Casino T&C's dated 27th December 2005

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater"

Next from the 7th of February 2006

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater"

Then from 2nd January 2007

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater"

and from the 7th June 2007

"Player Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full-time Students aged 21 years old and under that are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino"

and finally from the 8th of December 2010

"Players Representation and Warranties

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino"

*********************************************************
Always been the same?? It is quite evident that this has been chopped and changed over the years. If you want screenshots of the T&C's, I'll gladly post them.

Bryan / Max - With all due respect is Casinomeister advocating this injustice towards the player by not challenging Club World on the decision?

Nate

At least there it was clearer....why change it later? Its far far less precise now......makes no sense to me. But, since they took out the 21 and under clause....all us older people who are students are clearly due a refund....and I agree Dan needs to be paid.

 

[Pinababy69]

Thanks for that Nate. This is the statement from Tom that I was referring to:

This term has been in the number one slot ever since we launched. Even if some of the edge cases can be discussed it is clear that the only reason that Danl encountered these problems is that he created an account and deposited without reading the terms.

Thanks
Tom

So not entirely true if referring to ClubWorld themselves. However, if Tom was referring to Aladdin's Gold (where DanL played), I guess it is possible that it was always there in its present form?

When I read of the other case, where the student won 33K Euros and was (tentatively?) paid, and then read your post, I almost wondered if they added in that term after April 2010 and Samuel T's big win. But it looks like it has been there in one form or another since 2007. Sort of makes you wonder why they have felt the need to initially add it, then refine it, over the years?

Also meant to comment on the exclusion of Markham in the terms. Another laugher. WTH? I live within about 30 miles or so of Markham....would that make me ineligible to win? Are the players in Markham eating some sort of Smart Food that makes them super duper, inhuman, gamblers? Perhaps I should move there, if that's where all the smart people are. Maybe it will rub off.

One question I meant to ask earlier and forgot...Dan, did you have an account, or play at any of the other CW properties ie. ClubWorld, Lucky Red, Manhattan Slots, High Noon or AllStarSlots? Also, (okay, two questions)....what bonuses, if any, did you receive....and what games did you/do you play? Thanks.

 

[Nate]

So not entirely true if referring to ClubWorld themselves. However, if Tom was referring to Aladdin's Gold (where DanL played), I guess it is possible that it was always there in its present form?

Even so - Since AladdinsGold is part of the same group, I doubt there will be inconsistencies on the T&C's between them. I believe the crux of the matter here is "Full Time Students who are Enrolled..." ... We are all of the same opinion and CW still maintains they will not pay.

Pina, the case you highlighted is also interesting. I would like to still see Tom answer the refund to all losing students and furthermore your question. Tom -please avail yourself as your group were brave enough to void the winnings - Please be brave and RESPOND!

Nate

 

[The Dude]

Just an FYI that both Tom and the operator are on the road at the moment and won't be back until next week sometime I believe. So if you've been wondering why there hasn't been more responses from their end, now you know.

As for entertaining PABs from disgruntled students, I would prefer those people attempt to work things out with the casino management first before putting Max to work.

But to be realistic about the whole thing, I really don't see them going anywhere. Players are obliged to read terms and conditions and in order to participate at any casino, you are required to have read them. What is so hard about understanding that? To go back and say, "Well, I know I was violating your terms and conditions; I want my money back," is frivolous and a complete waste of everyone's time. There are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

The Club World group has had this term in place for quite some time. Skimming through the PABs - going back to 2005 - they seem to have had an issue like this (a student denied winnings) twice - to include this one. So how big of a problem are we looking at here? You can speculate all you want, but this thread needs a serious dose of reality.

If you want to continue debating this - that's fine. But I'm not sure how much more is going to happen besides the casino rewriting the student clause of their terms and conditions.

 

[jelsmith]

The term isnt clear and wasnt clear when the majority of us signed up. It also seems that the two cases one decided in favor of the player and one not, is a pick and choose situation. A student is only a student when enrolled and attending classes. Im a full time student I also work fulltime...what the hell am I? I honestly am having an identity crisis

 

[CoolCat]

As for entertaining PABs from disgruntled students, I would prefer those people attempt to work things out with the casino management first before putting Max to work.

But to be realistic about the whole thing, I really don't see them going anywhere. Players are obliged to read terms and conditions and in order to participate at any casino, you are required to have read them. What is so hard about understanding that? To go back and say, "Well, I know I was violating your terms and conditions; I want my money back," is frivolous and a complete waste of everyone's time. There are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

I can't believe im reading this. So Bryan you're telling us. If a player breaks a T&C and opens multiple accounts. They are entitled to winnings forfeit and deposit returned. If they play the wrong game their winnings are forfeit and deposit returned. If they give false information, winnings are forfeit and deposit returned. "BUT IF THEY WERE A STUDENT AND BROKE THE T&C AND WANTS A REFUND." ITS FRIVOLOUS!!! It shouldn't matter whether the time limit has been a few hours or few months. Its still past tense. Example: A player PAB after several weeks of trying to solve payout issue on his own. It then takes maxd a few weeks to get an answer and rule in favor of the casino. The player deposit is returned in weeks/month time. The deposit made is past tense.

I think we all know where you stand on this issue. I a lot of members here respect you. And will not voice their opinion openly. But I will! Its seems like you are too comfortable with Club World Casinos. I mean issues like CWC "TAXING" withdrawals and people come here and complaining. You turn a blind eye to it. Even this case CWC is wrong on this one. Again, you're turning a blind eye. Especially when majority of your members are ruling in favor of the OP. CWC hosting parties for you. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to read between the line.

The funny thing is you can always tell when a good thing is coming to an end. And Online Gambling is in its finally days. Greed and Distrust is becoming the norm. Even for the most trusted of places. You can take what I said or let it alone. If the shoe fits then wear it.

 

[skiny]

But to be realistic about the whole thing, I really don't see them going anywhere. Players are obliged to read terms and conditions and in order to participate at any casino, you are required to have read them. What is so hard about understanding that? To go back and say, "Well, I know I was violating your terms and conditions; I want my money back," is frivolous and a complete waste of everyone's time. There are bigger fish to fry at the moment.

If I was finished my courses at one institution and waiting to start courses at another I would have read that "Full-time Students who are enrolled" as not applicable to me.

The Club World group has had this term in place for quite some time. Skimming through the PABs - going back to 2005 - they seem to have had an issue like this (a student denied winnings) twice - to include this one.

Student denied his winnings that was currently enrolled in studies or between courses?

You can speculate all you want, but this thread needs a serious dose of reality.

Reality is how you perceive it. We all read these threads everyday. When player's are denied winnings and found to have broken terms or acted fraudulently the members here are all over them like a dirty shirt. It seems this time the forum members are pretty much unanimously against the casino's decision.

If you want to continue debating this - that's fine. But I'm not sure how much more is going to happen besides the casino rewriting the student clause of their terms and conditions.

Well that and one hell of a lot of well known forum members reiterating why this term was applied unfairly and a growing list of potential players reading it and agreeing with them. It's really only the casino's reputation that's at stake.

So how big of a problem are we looking at here?

For us or CW?

 

[coxwel]

besides from their t&c´s, cw is a business and has its rules. if you put your money in there you should make sure yourself you know and understand! these rules. so far so good.

the only thing which bothers me about this is the fact they wont return the players deposits. if a casino calls itself professional and honest business i would exepect the following.

no matter what a player did (fraud/ underage/ student/ broken bonus terms...) the casino has the possibility to void all winnings and bonusses received. BUT to keep any deposits from a player which the casino excludes is just stealing in my opinion. they should put everything back to zero, so no loss on any side and just exclude the player for life, thats their right.


but keeping money from a player which was never entitled to play is not right, fair! with this behaviour they put theirselves in a very bad position and damage their reputation.

in the real world these things are checked even before the first bet has been placed, online you have to hope for good-faith of the casino.

a casino which keeps deposits from players they have excluded and had a positive balance is stealing imho, every other business would/could never do so.

if casinos would finally begin to deeply checkplayers before!! any bets are placed the majority of problems would just vanish from forums etc...

but i guess the casinos have no intention to do so as they make more money doing the the other way. at the end of the day they want to make $$$, nothing else! they dont want to protect anybody from anything, that just sounds good for themselves.
but making $$$ from fraudsters/underage people/excluded players puts you in one line with them in a way.i hope it gets clear what i mean.


its just ridiculous that onlinecasinos mostly only realize/decide not to pay smb after he already played for months or years, and finally wins? there are just too many casinos which have no problem and taking deposits and keeping them from players which as per t&cs were never entitled to play, thats in a way like if i sell alcohol to underage persons for weeks, then the parents come to argue that their child is underage and should have never been able to buy it. then i check the id and say ok for the future your child wont be able to buy here anymore as i know now! hes underage, shouldnt i have checked this before? in this case i would have to deal with the police and explain my behaviour and not the kid.

maybe not the best example but somehow the same thing.


cheers

coxwel

 

[RedAndi]

I can't believe im reading this. So Bryan you're telling us. If a player breaks a T&C and opens multiple accounts. They are entitled to winnings forfeit and deposit returned. If they play the wrong game their winnings are forfeit and deposit returned. If they give false information, winnings are forfeit and deposit returned. "BUT IF THEY WERE A STUDENT AND BROKE THE T&C AND WANTS A REFUND." ITS FRIVOLOUS!!! It shouldn't matter whether the time limit has been a few hours or few months. Its still past tense. Example: A player PAB after several weeks of trying to solve payout issue on his own. It then takes maxd a few weeks to get an answer and rule in favor of the casino. The player deposit is returned in weeks/month time. The deposit made is past tense.

I think we all know where you stand on this issue. I a lot of members here respect you. And will not voice their opinion openly. But I will! Its seems like you are too comfortable with Club World Casinos. I mean issues like CWC "TAXING" withdrawals and people come here and complaining. You turn a blind eye to it. Even this case CWC is wrong on this one. Again, you're turning a blind eye. Especially when majority of your members are ruling in favor of the OP. CWC hosting parties for you. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to read between the line.

The funny thing is you can always tell when a good thing is coming to an end. And Online Gambling is in its finally days. Greed and Distrust is becoming the norm. Even for the most trusted of places. You can take what I said or let it alone. If the shoe fits then wear it.

Unfortunately Coolcat he DID get a refund apparently, but just that, a refund of deposits. Still isn't sitting right with me though, his winnings are removed.

All of this just leaves me wondering how long it's going to take for online players to just boycott. The T & C's seem to be getting more and more tricky, and once again leave me musing on how easy it is to just walk into a B & M (even though sadly we shouldn't play in our PJ's at a B & M....doesn't mean we *COULDN'T* tho ). Very few T & C's at a real casino.

 

[skiny]

Unfortunately Coolcat he DID get a refund apparently, but just that, a refund of deposits. Still isn't sitting right with me though, his winnings are removed.

All of this just leaves me wondering how long it's going to take for online players to just boycott. The T & C's seem to be getting more and more tricky, and once again leave me musing on how easy it is to just walk into a B & M (even though sadly we shouldn't play in our PJ's at a B & M....doesn't mean we *COULDN'T* tho ). Very few T & C's at a real casino.

Well, that's what gets me about these online casinos. You go into a B&M and sit down at a slot. Slide a bill into it or use coins if you're really ambitious and start spinning the reels. If you win, someone walks over and pays you or you just pop your ticket out.

(I do miss the coins jingling out the bottom... I might start bringing a handful of nickles and throw them on the floor every time I win for old time sake.)

Ok, I can understand that you want to know who we are and how old we are. You don't have the benefit of staring into our glassy eyes when you're handing us the money. You don't have the benefit of saying "Hey, you look kind of young. Can I see your driver's license?" So you ask us for ID. I get it.

But that's bloody well it. That's all you need. You only need to know who you're handing the money to and how old we are. If gambling is illegal in whatever country we live in then we shouldn't have accounts in the first place and all these other conditions are simply not necessary.

The only two ways I know of to have your bets voided on a slot at the B&M is if smoke starts coming out the back or you start banging your face on the glass and shaking it around like a candy machine with your OH Henry! stuck in the coily thing.

What B&M on this entire planet is going to stand in the middle of the casino and try to claim that they don't have to pay you because you weren't playing in the spirit of the bonus? Bonuses shouldn't have spirits anyway. It's creepy. So maybe I wasn't playing in the spirit of the bonus. Maybe I was playing in the spirit of I'd finally like to make a bloody withdrawal for a change, sue me.

And sue me if I decide I want to gamble while I'm young and single and in college. I know I shouldn't be gambling money that I could be using to buy kegs for frat parties and that I should probably wait until I'm married with 3 children and gamble the mortgage payments away instead but I'm in a bloody hurry.

And I still don't know what the hell "the area" of Markham means. "The area" is pretty damn vague if you ask me. If you're in the UK and I'm in Ontario I could be considered to be in "the area" of Markham. And if you pat me on the back I could say you were in "the area" of my ass and around here we have laws against arbitrarily patting people in the wrong "areas" so maybe we should all decide exactly what "the area" means before I get disqualified and you get arrested.

 

[ksech]

If you're talking about danl (as originally posted here) the situation is that he has received $5000 of his original $11983.50. As things currently stand CWC's position is that they will not be making further payments to this player because of Terms violations.

Is $11983.50 the amount of total deposits? If so, then he wasn't refunded his TOTAL deposits...

 

[anniemac]

Skiny, what a perfectly spot on post. Besides the fact that it's just funny as the devil, you hit the nail on the head.

I know that all of us are beating a dead horse so to speak because the casinos isn't going to change it's stand on this but that doesn't mean that what has been done was right.

 

[Glunn11]

What B&M on this entire planet is going to stand in the middle of the casino and try to claim that they don't have to pay you because you weren't playing in the spirit of the bonus? Bonuses shouldn't have spirits anyway. It's creepy. So maybe I wasn't playing in the spirit of the bonus. Maybe I was playing in the spirit of I'd finally like to make a bloody withdrawal for a change, sue me.

You, skiny, have proven once again that the most hilarious things in the world are funny because they are true.

I'm kind of glad US online gambling is going down the dumps. It's all the more incentive to stop and wait for meaningful regulation and realistic terms, both standard and promotional. Playing the way things are right now is too much of a gamble for me anymore.

 

[ksech]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore as it seemed like I was beating the proverbial dead horse, BUT...

What if...

Other casino reps have been perusing this thread to see where this ends up? What is to say they won't be adding in their own precarious terms to their T&Cs? With the mindset of, "Hey, they got away with it why can't we?" Does EVERYONE go back to read T&Cs each time they play? (Obviously not since several other STUDENTS totally missed this "Term that has been there since day one in the number 1 slot")

Has anyone figured out WHEN the "area of Markham" was added into the terms (I think I've asked this several times, but no one has responded...)? How many Canadians are in violation of THAT part of the T&Cs? And what is the radius for determining "the area of Markham"?

You can call me cynical, ignorant, or whatever else you feel, BUT the CWC wants the players to be mind readers when it comes to READING and INTERPRETING how the CASINO wants the player to perceive theT&Cs. The player will NEVER win in these situations as, obviously, the casino "has the right to change T&Cs without notice" and it is the players' responsibility to make sure they keep updated for these add-ins.

This is from CWC T&Cs...

10. Club World Casinos (CWCUSD) does not currently accept any real money wagers from the legal jurisdictions of the Netherlands Antilles, Costa Rica, Israel or the area of Markham in Canada.

And this if from Aladdins Gold T&Cs...

10. Aladdins Gold Casino (AGC) does not currently accept any real money wagers from the legal jurisdictions of the Netherlands Antilles, Costa Rica, Israel, France or the area of Markham in Canada.

So players, if you are from France, please notice you are NOT eligible for play at Aladdins Gold casino.

I don't have time to go further with this at the moment, but it would be interesting to compare T&Cs from the various casinos in this group.

 

[P.V.]

As opposed to ....?

I wasn't comparing anything. I was referring to Money Claim Online or something to that effect. He has several options.

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Why don't you ask danl what he thinks of how his PAB was handled? You might be surprised.

Exactly what am I going to be surprised about? I don't recall saying anything negative about your dispute system if that's what you mean. I thought the player wasn't a student during the time of play and still feel this way.



So not sure what your implying or asking me.

 

[maxd]

Is $11983.50 the amount of total deposits? If so, then he wasn't refunded his TOTAL deposits...

Perhaps I was unclear. As I understand it the player deposited $5000, played, and ended up with the balance of $11983.

 

[Nate]

Dear Bryan,

I would like to appeal to you to STAND for the values this site was built on. I am utterly disappointed that you will not engage ClubWorld on this matter. Many seasoned posters have agreed that the actions of the CWC Group were malicious and had no goodwill intended to any group of people.

It is obvious that Club World can be categorised as a Casino that hides when the shit hits the fan. Tom has not been forthcoming in engaging in any constructive debate and has remained absent for most, if not all of this thread. I would agree that you cannot beat a dead horse so I will not ask Tom to appear.

Club World has made a statement - They will confiscate winnings on how they interpret T&C's. They will not apply the rule to themselves when it is to their detriment.

They are NOT straight forward and even although the complainant does not qualify as being a full time student or enrolled, you turn a blind eye.


I am not the only one seeing this Bryan, there are many posters but they will not challenge this. I for one believe in fairness and integrity. I just cannot understand the continued support for Club World by yourself and the way the whole scenario is being diluted by CM.

Nate

 

[The Dude]

@ Cool Cat: I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your emotionally fueled and misinformed accusations to yourself. Sure, CWC has hosted the Meister Meetings and I think the bill came to about GBP 500 - GBP 800. If you think I'd sell out for 500 quid or even 50,000 quid, you've got a lot to learn about me and this site. And that's a party for members - you included. If you want to chip in or sponsor it yourself, be my guest.

Further on this, I agree that the term was poorly written. But the bottom line is if you read the terms and conditions, and if you have questions about any terms and conditions, you should contact player support to ensure that you understand them.

The player by his own admission was a student. The casino defines this player as a student. We've looked at his situation, and yes - he is and was a student. Had he read the terms and conditions, we wouldn't be having this discussion. He didn't read them, and he's trying to blame his own mistake on the casino. That's total BS in my opinion.

What I am understanding from a lot of you is that players have no responsibility by their own accord to read and understand terms and conditions. Players are not obliged to ask questions if they don't understand the rules of a casino.

That's ridiculous.

The casino is taking a hardlined approach to this, that may be true. But does that make them wrong? I'm not going to debate this much further since I'm just repeating yourself.

Edited to add @Nate - perhaps you missed my post where I stated that Tom is on the road at the moment. Please read my postings before accusing people of not repsonding. Thank you.

 

[danl]

Whether or not I was aware of a term is irrelevant for whether I was actually in breach of it.

And why is it unacceptable for someone (especially a consumer, who isn't held in law to the same standards as a business) to examine their situation more precisely when they realise that it is important?

You just have to look at what the term says and what the facts are. Obviously I made mistakes at the time and during the dispute process, but Aladdin's Gold now know the full and true situation, and that is what the case should be assessed on.

If they still make the same decision, then so be it. But my knowledge of the terms aren't relevant when making an objective assessment of the terms ("Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University") and the facts (graduated from one institution, not yet started at another).

My knowledge of the term shouldn't make any difference to whether I broke the term on the facts: if I had been aware of the term from the outset and believed it didn't apply to me, would the decision be the same? If so, then fair enough.

 

[The Dude]

Whether or not I was aware of a term is irrelevant for whether I was actually in breach of it...

I disagree. This is precisely the point. You did not read the terms and conditions. Had you read them, presumably you would have contacted player support asking them if you would be defined as a student, correct? And they would have replied, "Yes, you are considered a student."

And then you would have gone off and deposited at one of their competitors...

...and look at all of the grief you would have saved.

But you didn't read them, you played - won, and they zeroed out your account. You made the mistake - how is this the casino's fault?

But please don't get me wrong on this. I can understand how upsetting this could be. I would be pissed if this happened to me. But if I had failed to read the terms and conditions and consequently breaking one that negates my winnings, I'd just be kicking myself in the ass and moving on.

 

[rockycatt]

If I understand correctly...the $5000 returned to DanL are the total of his deposits, which were refunded. It was not a settlement of any kind. What is outstanding are his winnings of almost 7K. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

pina you are correct in wishing that danl got the winnings along with the returned deposite [but thats a wish that i also have]

hard facts are he very well could still be out all of the money seed money and winnings , now im of the opinion that the seed money was spread over a period of time probably many sessions .

and then a young fella finds him self in the neg $$ of 5,000.00$ [big picture here ] this 5,000.00$ is from his life's money to survive on so from a Internet gaming provider he gets his seed $$$$ returned ,[very lucky he wasn't playing in a rogue casino hu.

now he has taken a settlement from CWC and accepted there terms
its necessary to take each case individually

he obviously wanted to without delay receive his 5,000.00$$ back
a good judgement under the circumstance

so as your sig says [bitch = correct you are life was not intended to be fair it was intended to be a bitch] all we have to do is read a news paper

with all do respect R C

 

[P.V.]

I disagree. This is precisely the point. You did not read the terms and conditions. Had you read them, presumably you would have contacted player support asking them if you would be defined as a student, correct? And they would have replied, "Yes, you are considered a student."

And then you would have gone off and deposited at one of their competitors...

...and look at all of the grief you would have saved.

But you didn't read them, you played - won, and they zeroed out your account. You made the mistake - how is this the casino's fault?

But please don't get me wrong on this. I can understand how upsetting this could be. I would be pissed if this happened to me. But if I had failed to read the terms and conditions and consequently breaking one that negates my winnings, I'd just be kicking myself in the ass and moving on.

He wasn't a student and there is no obligation to read the T & C's for the normal Joe.

T & C's will be read by your regular forum members but maybe not someone like Danl.

I don't care if Danl made every mistake in the book during verification, started backtracking after the fact or whatever, the fact still remains that he wasn't a student during his playing time and that's all that matters.

Reread the thread and see that most every member agrees with Danl, doesn't this not mean anything?

Unless you provide proof that DanL wasn't a student during play then it appears he is due an estimated $7,000 dollars.

There is no way any PAB system is 100% and 100% of the time. No way CW is 100% and 100 % of the time, so you should both reload and listen.

I commend you for what you do and Max too but stop being so darn hard headed when many others are disputing.

You should be grateful for the input and weigh the facts.

 

[maxd]

... there is no obligation to read the T & C's for the normal Joe.

No reflection on the rest of your post but this specific bit is the worst bit of advice I've heard in quite some time.

Every casino under the sun has a clause saying it is the player's responsibility to have read and understood their Terms. So whether "normal Joe" reads them or not he is going to be held to them. Given the state of affairs we find ourselves in these days with the online gaming scene I think it's safe to say that anyone who doesn't read the T&Cs is playing in traffic blind-folded: expect pain.

How you come up with this "no obligation" stuff is beyond me. A serious vacation from reality is required to justify such a thing.

 

[P.V.]

No obligation? There is nothing set in stone stating that they must read them, plain and simple. I didn't say not too, so not bad advice on my part.

I do need a vacation but not sure why you're concerned!

I'm not saying it's not in their best interest to read the T & C's but...

If Danl would had read the T & C's the outcome would be the same cause I feel he never thought he was a student per the legal definition, US or UK or whatever.

With that being said Max should a player feel obligated to read the T & C's every time they log in to play or do you feel when they register and have read the T & C's they are grandfathered at that time of registration?

 

[The Dude]

He wasn't a student and there is no obligation to read the T & C's for the normal Joe.

Yes he was a student, and every "joe" is requred to read the terms and conditions. Before playing, you "agree" that you've read them. To say that you are not obligated to read them is just the point I've been trying to make in this thread.

There seems to be an underlying attitude in this thread that players have no responsibility whatsoever on understanding terms and conditions. I have seen a hell of a lot of analogies and "what ifs" being thrown around, but the bottom line is that this player by the casino's definition was/is a student, he failed to read the T&Cs, and he lost his winnings because he violated them, not because he didn't read them. If he had read and understood them, he would have deposited his money elsewhere.

Terms and conditions are there to protect both the player and the casino. To state that players should disregard terms and conditions is not good advice.

 

[The Dude]

...With that being said Max should a player feel obligated to read the T & C's every time they log in to play or do you feel when they register and have read the T & C's they are grandfathered at that time of registration?

I think that every member here who considers him or herself a responsible and educated player would agree that occasionally checking terms and conditions for any updates is a smart thing to do. Most casinos require you to do so, and believe it or not - you agree to do this when you sign up.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Yes he was a student

Yes he was a GRADUATE with a four year college degree

Terms and conditions are there to protect both the player and the casino.

Yes, like your accredited casinos whereby player's that withdraw winnings are and/or may be required to lend the casinos money interest free with a high probability that the casinos will never have to make good on payment of these subject loans in full

Transparency is a bitch, huh?

 

[The Dude]

Transparency is a bitch, huh?

And what the hell is that supposed to mean?

Seems like some members here are unable to debate without making insinuations or other meaningless accusations. Keep it up, and we'll just end this debate here and now.

A simple "we agree to disagree" would suffice.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

And what the hell is that supposed to mean?

Seems like some members here are unable to debate without making insinuations or other meaningless accusations. Keep it up, and we'll just end this debate here and now.

A simple "we agree to disagree" would suffice.

LOL.......must have hit a hot button.........chill!

 

[ksech]

Sorry guys and gals, but I have to concede several points here to Bryan and Max.

1) When you click on that little box which states "I agree to and have read the terms and conditions", this is a virtual contract you are signing with the casino. Have you never paid for something online (other than gambling) which requires an electronic signature? This is the same deal. I personally feel, it is the responsibility of EVERY player to initially read the GENERAL AND BONUS T&Cs carefully and understand what you are getting into.

2) As we have seen, add-ins CAN be written without notice by the casino, THIS is also stated numerous times throughout various T&Cs from different groups (this is NOT an isolated case). Since no one has stepped forward with an answer to the "area of Markham" clause in CWCs general T&Cs, I am going to ASSUME this is a recent add-in and for the Canadian players who live in/near this area, were you aware of this term? Hence, the need to check back every so often to make sure there are NO relevant terms to void out winnings.

Now, here is where I stand (not that my opinion really means much...), I think the casino was walking a tight rope on this one and made a bad choice/decision. BUT it's one of those damned if you do/damned if you don't situations. And now that Danl has come back and posted several things, I'm sorry to say, but I do have to side with the casino on this one and this is why...

By his own admission, he DIDN'T read the T&Cs, which he and several others feel isn't necessary. He offered up proof after the fact (to Steve Russo and Bryan/Max) when he found out he wasn't going to get paid, that he was no longer at student at one institution while waiting to become a student at a different institution (hence, the debate).

My main beef with all of this is the loosely written term of full-time student. This would/could affect many "adults" who have gone BACK to school for various reasons. Does this make them a liability? Not in my book. With the way the world's economy is now, many people have been "forced" into new professions requiring schooling.

Also, why the need to know if a person is employed full-time? And this needs to be clarified also. Many people are not and never will be a full-time employee.

So, this group is experiencing problems from students...easy, write in a few pop up questions which can be triggered when registering. Skiny had the right thoughts there. Or change your minimum age requirement to 21, 25 or 50...whichever is easier.

I hope Tom will take time to respond to the last parts of this thread when he returns. If not, IMO, this would be grounds to remove the group from the accreditted section.

To Danl, I'm really sorry you didn't receive your winnings, but on the other foot... I think you should be happy the casino returned your deposits (if it was any "rogued" group, you would out everything). I personally think, this may be their savings grace (CWC) in all of this fiasco.

 

[jelsmith]

Sorry guys and gals, but I have to concede several points here to Bryan and Max.

1) When you click on that little box which states "I agree to and have read the terms and conditions", this is a virtual contract you are signing with the casino. Have you never paid for something online (other than gambling) which requires an electronic signature? This is the same deal. I personally feel, it is the responsibility of EVERY player to initially read the GENERAL AND BONUS T&Cs carefully and understand what you are getting into.
2) As we have seen, add-ins CAN be written without notice by the casino, THIS is also stated numerous times throughout various T&Cs from different groups (this is NOT an isolated case). Since no one has stepped forward with an answer to the "area of Markham" clause in CWCs general T&Cs, I am going to ASSUME this is a recent add-in and for the Canadian players who live in/near this area, were you aware of this term? Hence, the need to check back every so often to make sure there are NO relevant terms to void out winnings.

Now, here is where I stand (not that my opinion really means much...), I think the casino was walking a tight rope on this one and made a bad choice/decision. BUT it's one of those damned if you do/damned if you don't situations. And now that Danl has come back and posted several things, I'm sorry to say, but I do have to side with the casino on this one and this is why...

By his own admission, he DIDN'T read the T&Cs, which he and several others feel isn't necessary. He offered up proof after the fact (to Steve Russo and Bryan/Max) when he found out he wasn't going to get paid, that he was no longer at student at one institution while waiting to become a student at a different institution (hence, the debate).

My main beef with all of this is the loosely written term of full-time student. This would/could affect many "adults" who have gone BACK to school for various reasons. Does this make them a liability? Not in my book. With the way the world's economy is now, many people have been "forced" into new professions requiring schooling.

Also, why the need to know if a person is employed full-time? And this needs to be clarified also. Many people are not and never will be a full-time employee.

So, this group is experiencing problems from students...easy, write in a few pop up questions which can be triggered when registering. Skiny had the right thoughts there. Or change your minimum age requirement to 21, 25 or 50...whichever is easier.

I hope Tom will take time to respond to the last parts of this thread when he returns. If not, IMO, this would be grounds to remove the group from the accreditted section.

To Danl, I'm really sorry you didn't receive your winnings, but on the other foot... I think you should be happy the casino returned your deposits (if it was any "rogued" group, you would out everything). I personally think, this may be their savings grace (CWC) in all of this fiasco.

He wasnt a student at the time so regardless of whether he read it or not its null.....CW is gonna get away with this...and I think it sucks...I closed all of my accounts there...and cited this as why maybe if more people do they will wake up and smell the bull$hit.

 

[Jasminebed]

He wasnt a student at the time so regardless of whether he read it or not its null.....CW is gonna get away with this...and I think it sucks...I closed all of my accounts there...and cited this as why maybe if more people do they will wake up and smell the bull$hit.

Since you've stated that you are a student, a wise move on your part. Would it be to your advantage to request a return of your deposits at the Club World Group for the period of time you were a student? If so, I strongly encourage you to do so, first through the casino, then through the rep as outlined in the PAB procedures. If they do not handle this satisfactorily, I suggest you PAB.

I know of at least one other meister member who's an adult student. When I approached them about PABing, they felt "surely this would not apply to me" because they are a mature student.

The current term refers to ANY student.

For the record, I don't feel that Danl was a student at the time of his play and withdrawal. As a graduate (and not just between terms of an undergrad), he was not a student by most definitions. If his winnings were larger ($20K or $50K), it might have been worth deferring his schooling for a year. Then he would most definitely not have been a student.

It's hard to have a crystal ball and tell what a player will do in the future, including returning to school for a post graduate degree. Sometimes employment opportunities change someone's intended path, or a change in family or economic circumstances do.

 

[jelsmith]

Just an FYI that both Tom and the operator are on the road at the moment and won't be back until next week sometime I believe. So if you've been wondering why there hasn't been more responses from their end, now you know.

As for entertaining PABs from disgruntled students, I would prefer those people attempt to work things out with the casino management first before putting Max to work.

But to be realistic about the whole thing, I really don't see them going anywhere. Players are obliged to read terms and conditions and in order to participate at any casino, you are required to have read them. What is so hard about understanding that? To go back and say, "Well, I know I was violating your terms and conditions; I want my money back," is frivolous and a complete waste of everyone's time. There are bigger fish to fry at the moment.The Club World group has had this term in place for quite some time. Skimming through the PABs - going back to 2005 - they seem to have had an issue like this (a student denied winnings) twice - to include this one. So how big of a problem are we looking at here? You can speculate all you want, but this thread needs a serious dose of reality.

If you want to continue debating this - that's fine. But I'm not sure how much more is going to happen besides the casino rewriting the student clause of their terms and conditions.

Thats why i didnt....its pointless...CW will just refuse and its clear what the outcome of a PAB would be....so I wont waste my time...I would rather see CW hit in the pocketbook with players leaving them due to this shady behavior.

 

[Pinababy69]

Before I make a final plea here to the casino and to Bryan...I wanted to say something. Like a few in this thread, there were instances years ago, where I got upset with Bryan because I was convinced that he was no different, nor any better, than some webmasters who are motivated by money. I left here for about a year I guess. In the last three or four years, I think that I have gotten to know him reasonably well, and I can say with conviction, that the man is not motivated by money. Yes, CM is a business, and is in business to make money.....but please believe me when I say, his decisions are NOT based on money.

I have seen him drop casinos in the blink of an eye, without thinking twice. Jackpot Factory, Fortune Lounge....have both had trips to the rogue pit in years past. Betfair is a perfect recent example. Big names all of them. If you are going to question someone's integrity like that, you had better make sure that you know what you're talking about.

This site is one of the last few places that a player can go who has been wronged, and actually hope to get some resolution. We've all seen how ineffective our respective governments, and the various regulating bodies are....when it comes to player protection. We're all frustrated with this case, and with the fact that Bryan doesn't see it "our" way.

Only my opinion here, but for Bryan to be taking this hardline on the side of CW, I have to think it's because he believes in them and their overall ethics and integrity, and their fair treatment of players. Nothing more sinister than that. I can't speak for others, but for myself....I know that when it comes to certain casinos (ie. 32Red and 3Dice), I have more faith in them than in any other casinos. I know the operations and the people behind them, and as much as I pride myself on being unbiased and fair to all....I know that I have a blind spot where those guys are concerned. It's not that I believe they walk on water, or could do no wrong...but I do tend to give them a bit more leeway when an issue pops up on the forum, because I trust them to do the right thing. And if it's something in a "grey" area, I know I'm much more likely to side with them. Not a good thing to admit, but I know it's the truth. It's also a big reason why I try my best to even avoid threads that involve them. Shoot me, I'm human. So is Bryan, and sometimes there are going to be instances where he doesn't agree with the majority. That's just the way it is.

[/end of derail]

Back to CW.

Firstly, to say that a player doesn't have to read the terms is absurd, and any player who follows that practice is asking for trouble. However, I do believe a casino should make their terms as clear and concise and user friendly as possible.

The way I see it there are two issues at play here. One, did DanL break the term as it is/was written? Two, is the term itself fair, and can it be applied in a fair manner for all?

It seems unanimous that the answer to both is no.

Bryan, I would ask you to consider this. In your opinion, DanL was a student and in violation of the student clause. But....is it reasonable for DanL to assume the term would apply to him, given the fact that he was "in limbo"? Graduate of one set of studies, and not yet begun his post graduate studies. My point is that you believe he violated the term, he (and all of us) believe that he didn't. If a term is that ambiguous and that open to interpretation, how can it possibly be considered fair?

You have stated that the casino is going to rewrite it yet again, as have they. If a term needs to be rewritten, then again, there were some problems with it in the first place.

Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player.

Jelsmith's situation is a perfect example of how wrong and unfair this term "can" be. She works, yet she is also a student. Right now, it's a crapshoot as to whether she could play at CW or not, and actually get paid if she won. The way it stands now, the casino could pull this term out anytime they wanted, and use it to deny winnings if a player's situation falls into one of these "grey" areas. It is NOT fair, and is in direct violation of CM Accredited Guidelines. If they insist on keeping it and rewriting it, then fine....if after rewrite, you agree that it is fairly written and UNAMBIGUOUS, players from that point on should be held to it. But to use it the way it is now, and to invoke it on a whim, is 100 kinds of wrong.

I want more clarification on the case of Samuel T, which I posted about yesterday. If he indeed was a student, and did get paid his 33K Euros...I would like to know how the casino can justify paying one player who quite obviously broke the term, yet deny winnings to another whose case is NOT cut and dried by any means. I realize that clarification will have to come from Tom and/or Steve Russo. Casinos cannot pick and choose who to pay dependent on their mood that day.

The discussion of this case and terms in general brought to mind another huge issue/thread from about a year and a half ago. Remember the Spin Palace issue and the ambiguity of their bonus terms?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/palace-group-rules-shenanigans.31264/

I am not going to go back and read all 30 pages, but I remember enough of it to know that it was the catalyst for you reworking the accreditation standards as they pertain to T&C's, and the fairness of those terms for the player. And for the Palace Group rewording and rewriting their bonus terms. I realize that thread was about bonuses, and this is about General T&C's, but the premise is EXACTLY the same.....is the term fair and unambiguous, and can it be applied fairly?

You use the argument here that the student clause is old, and that there have only been two PAB's here since 2005. Originally, you stated the same thing in re: Palace Group and their "majority of balance" term.

This is an old term by the way, it's been there for some time and as far as I know, this is the first time this has been a problem.

In fact, we asked Fortune Lounge to look at this term some time ago:

This was over a year ago, and only now people are complaining about it?

I don't see how that is a valid argument? Whether people complain, or file a PAB is irrelevant, if a term is inherently unfair to begin with, or improperly written (applies to CW and to Palace Group).

So without rehashing that whole issue, the point is that originally you sided with the Palace Group, even though you were pretty much the only one. Sound familiar?

30 pages later, and after a ton of great debate and valid points being made..not only did you change your mind..but the player was paid, the Accredited Sections standards (in re: T&C's) were overhauled to apply to all casinos listed there, and the Palace Group rewrote their bonus terms, so that there was no ambiguity, and absolutely zero room for "interpretation" or opinion.

I know you are fair, and I also know that you keep an open mind and are willing to listen. I'm asking you to please rethink this Bryan. CW aren't back til next week....take the weekend and really think about the fairness of it all. For the most part, this thread has remained extremely civil. There have been some very relevant, thoughtful and intelligent posts made here, by some long standing, knowledgeable members. It's not a witch hunt. But what the casino is doing is wrong. Almost to a person, we all agree on the same key points......that has to count for something? I respect that it is your decision, but I am asking you to reconsider your stance. That's all.

K....I'll shut up....for now.

 

[The Dude]

Sorry guys and gals, but I have to concede several points here to Bryan and Max...

You make this sound like it's a bad thing.

He wasnt a student at the time so regardless of whether he read it or not its null.....CW is gonna get away with this...and I think it sucks...I closed all of my accounts there...and cited this as why maybe if more people do they will wake up and smell the bull$hit.

This is where the problem lies. How is a student defined, and who defines him? Many here are arguing it's a call made by the player; the casino concedes that they are the decision makers.

It's a poorly written term (as I have mentioned), and the casino has stated that they will rewrite this.

I hope most of you can put this into perspective taking in consideration that this is not a common problem. Yeah sure, it's a term most players don't expect and this is why I believe it's term #1. But it should be read and followed. That's a player's responsibility.

Does it suck? Yes, it sucks. I like to see people win - I hate seeing people lose or having bad experiences. Like I said before, if it happened to me I'd be pissed, but at the same time I'd be pissed at myself for not reading the terms.

 

[The Dude]

I don't see how that is a valid argument? Whether people complain, or file a PAB is irrelevant, if a term is inherently unfair to begin with, or improperly written (applies to CW and to Palace Group).

I didn't mean that as an argument but as an observation.

 

[clubworld]

I am overseas at the moment but I have managed to catch up on this thread.

First of all DanL is a student and he is currently studying full time. He lied about this to me, to Steve Russo and to Max and Bryan in his PAB.

If he had played blackjack with a slots coupon there would be no debate. The terms say you can’t play that game with that bonus and failing to read the terms is no excuse.

He is a student and students are not permitted to play in our casino. The terms say that students are not permitted to play so why should this be any different.

The rules are there for all to see on our website and if you deposit without reading them you may well encounter problems.

One thing that this thread has highlighted is that this particular term needs clarifying – it does not adequately cover some of the edge cases that have been pointed out and I when I get back to the office I will work with our legal team to reword this.

Kind Regards
Tom

P.S. Samuel T was paid in full as he was not a student when he played.

 

[Pinababy69]

This is where the problem lies. How is a student defined, and who defines him? Many here are arguing it's a call made by the player; the casino concedes that they are the decision makers.

It's a poorly written term (as I have mentioned), and the casino has stated that they will rewrite this.

You have hit the nail on the head Bryan. Who defines what a student is? If the term is PROPERLY written, there is no need for anyone to define it. And if the casino wants to be the decision makers, then it's up to them to make it 100% clear in their terms what they consider a student to be. Had they done that, this thread would have ended about 20 pages ago. They can't decide after the fact, what they consider a student to be.

And again, if a term is unfair or ambiguous to begin with, then it is unfair to apply it. Period.

I didn't mean that as an argument but as an observation.

My mistake, I misinterpreted it I guess. Told you I need to move to Markham, where all the smart gamblers who never lose, live.

I am overseas at the moment but I have managed to catch up on this thread.

First of all DanL is a student and he is currently studying full time. He lied about this to me, to Steve Russo and to Max and Bryan in his PAB.

If he had played blackjack with a slots coupon there would be no debate. The terms say you can’t play that game with that bonus and failing to read the terms is no excuse.

He is a student and students are not permitted to play in our casino. The terms say that students are not permitted to play so why should this be any different.

The rules are there for all to see on our website and if you deposit without reading them you may well encounter problems.

One thing that this thread has highlighted is that this particular term needs clarifying – it does not adequately cover some of the edge cases that have been pointed out and I when I get back to the office I will work with our legal team to reword this.

Kind Regards
Tom

P.S. Samuel T was paid in full as he was not a student when he played.

You've made my argument for me Tom. If the term needs clarifying, then it has no business in your T&C's to begin with. And you have no business applying it. An unclear or ambiguous term is unfair.

As to whether or not DanL is a student, we will have to agree to disagree. I say no as he is NOT currently studying anything. You say yes. Again, interpretation and a difference of opinion.

Had DanL played blackjack with a slots coupon, I'd be here backing you all the way. And I'd be telling DanL to stop wasting everyone's time. Playing BJ on a Slots coupon is a clear violation of an unambiguous term. Not even in the same ballpark.

In re: SamuelT, thank you for the reply. I know you can't comment further due to confidentiality issues, but man, I'd love to know exactly where he was, in relation to his studies. Had he graduated? Was he planning on taking any further courses? It would be revealing to know how his case was "interpreted".

I would really hope Tom, that you will reconsider your position on this matter. Forget whether or not he was a student, according to your definitions. By your own admission, your student clause is unclear and needs clarifying. As a reputable establishment, and resident of the Accredited List, it is wrong of you to apply such a term.

I know you are travelling, and would hope that when you return, you guys will give this some serious thought.

 

[Jasminebed]

Please someone correct me if I've misread anything, but did danl's deposit and withdrawal request not occur during the period between graduation and his subsequent enrollment in graduate school?

Even if danl had read the T&C's, would it not be reasonable to assume it did not apply to him AS HE WAS NOT A STUDENT AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME?

 

[silcnlayc]

I am going to voice something once agian...stop trying to make rules for EVERYTHING...make it simple..I have never seen so many rules that convey so many responses that you really cannot understand them just as the casino gets lost in their own rulemaking...I mean, if a casino cannot understand the stuff they write, then by golley something is wrong big time! Keep it simple..go back to basics, stop all the silly bonuses with all kinds of ridiculous add on rules..

Sorry, That was not what I was going to comment on but it has gotten under my skin knowing that the casino is just as lost on their own terms and conditions and that is REALLY REALLY BAD...I have closed many accounts and CW is one of the few I got left but I am getting concerned over these rules and decision makings...extremely worried..

Why? Because I went back to school FULL TIME and worked FULL TIME for 4 years a few years ago...and this

The terms say that students are not permitted to play so why should this be any different.

would have applied to me by the decisions made today..I would NEVER have thought it would have applied, being in my late 40's when I went back to school..but here it is in black and white...

So...maybe it is time to stop making such ridicuous convoluted rules, get back to basics of gambling and keep it simple..I mean , really, how hard is that?


And just who are the rules for when even the casino can't figure out what they are saying??? All these edited rules makes for bad relations...Geezes..maybe it is time for everyone to head for the hills...

.

 

[RedAndi]

I don't know how many would admit it, but not since my early gaming days have I REALLY read the T & C's thoroughly. When I first started playing and it was all new I wanted to know every detail of them to be sure I would really get paid if I won (This was back in '03 or so).
Now they just get skimmed.
If I do want to see a particular term I will glance through quickly and try to find it, which sure as hell isn't easy because most T & C's are written in such a way that it is almost like they are written to intentionally make you zone out. I don't consider myself particularly dense either, this isn't an issue of not understanding them. But when you just want to PLAY and you are looking through those words your mind is probably elsewhere.
It's been said before, you shouldn't need a lawyer to get through the T & C's...
And it should also be added that a lot of terms could be considered to be constructed ambiguously. I am sure this is no accident.

I understand they are business' that need to protect themselves.
Is there not some way to simplify the T & C's?
Perhaps they should format them so that each term has a checkbox after it that you have to click to "agree" to. I know for me that would make me more inclined to read each more carefully.
Or maybe just author them MUCH MORE CONCISELY? I dont' think this would be so hard to do.


I also have one question.
Are players alerted in any way when T & C's change?
Are we expected to read them each time we log on to play?
I don't recall ever getting notification of a change, but I could be wrong.
It would be a good idea to mass email change in terms though, a lot of other online companys do this regularly.

 

[just play]

I also have one question.
Are players alerted in any way when T & C's change?
Are we expected to read them each time we log on to play?
I don't recall ever getting notification of a change, but I could be wrong.
It would be a good idea to mass email change in terms though, a lot of other online companys do this regularly

This is a very good point.

Since the casino and CM are saying it's our responsibility to read the T&C's...are we required to read them every single time before we deposit and play? I see people stating "when you signed up, you clicked the agree button", but no one is saying to read them everyday.

If you would be so kind to answer CM or Club World.

 

[Pulver]

Tom: How can one be a full time student when they have graduated?

Tom: Will other students who have played, and lost like jelsmith, have their play voided and receive their deposits back? If not, why? Do you only apply your T&C when it is benificial for your operation?

General note, had this case gone to court CWC would have lost the case. Without any doubt. I think that says it all about CWC Terms and Conditions.

 

[danl]

On the topic of T&Cs: I should have been aware of the term, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I broke it. You can be aware of a term and still break it, or unaware and not break it, as well as the other combinations of possibilities.

However, not all terms are necessarily legal. Just because a casino has a term, it doesn't mean it can rely on it. For example, if a term is particularly unusual or onerous but hidden away. I'm not saying this applies in this case, because the term is #1 on their T&Cs page, so I should have been aware of it, but I just thought it was something worth mentioning in general.

As to whether or not DanL is a student, we will have to agree to disagree. I say no as he is NOT currently studying anything. You say yes. Again, interpretation and a difference of opinion.

Had DanL played blackjack with a slots coupon, I'd be here backing you all the way. And I'd be telling DanL to stop wasting everyone's time. Playing BJ on a Slots coupon is a clear violation of an unambiguous term. Not even in the same ballpark.

Just to make sure that we're discussing the relevant point, it's whether I was a student at the time of playing there in August. It's the facts at the time that are important.

It's like if I lived in Markham in July, moved out and then played at Aladdin's Gold in August. If I had my account closed and then moved back to Markham in September, I would not have broken that particular term. And it wouldn't have mattered if I knew about the term either.

 

[jelsmith]

Tom: How can one be a full time student when they have graduated?

Tom: Will other students who have played, and lost like jelsmith, have their play voided and receive their deposits back? If not, why? Do you only apply your T&C when it is benificial for your operation?

General note, had this case gone to court CWC would have lost the case. Without any doubt. I think that says it all about CWC Terms and Conditions.

What i dont get is they would have no clue in the moon I was a student unless I told them. How do they go about figuring out who is and is not a student? I closed all my accounts there. I dont think Im inclined to try to get $ back its a stalemate and I would be beating my head against the wall. Im also not inclined to call my self a student. I work a full time job and a part time job and Im finishing my degree. Im not the only one that is a so called student here either....Silyc stated earlier that she/he was as well I believe. If I was asked what do you do for a living the answer wouldnt be student despite the fact that Im obtaining another Masters.

 

[The Dude]

On the topic of T&Cs: I should have been aware of the term, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I broke it. You can be aware of a term and still break it, or unaware and not break it, as well as the other combinations of possibilities.

You must be studying law - that is one way to obscure the argument.

Just to make sure that we're discussing the relevant point, it's whether I was a student at the time of playing there in August. It's the facts at the time that are important.

Well, you were a student. Your situation and position in life was "student". You considered yourself a student and probably everybody else that you knew at the time thought you were a student. Quit trying to say that you weren't because you are wrong to claim you were not.

It's like if I lived in Markham in July, moved out and then played at Aladdin's Gold in August. If I had my account closed and then moved back to Markham in September, I would not have broken that particular term. And it wouldn't have mattered if I knew about the term either.

Please don't obfuscate your situation with analogies that don't work.

I think you need to accept the fact that you messed up and chalk it up as a lesson learned: read the terms and conditions before playing. After thirty pages, this conversation is just going around in circles.

 

[The Dude]

Tom: How can one be a full time student when they have graduated?

I can probably answer that for him. The player is/was a graduate student.

General note, had this case gone to court CWC would have lost the case. Without any doubt. I think that says it all about CWC Terms and Conditions.

You don't know that. You don't have any legal expertise that I know of, so please don't make your opinions sound like facts

Since the casino and CM are saying it's our responsibility to read the T&C's...are we required to read them every single time before we deposit and play? I see people stating "when you signed up, you clicked the agree button", but no one is saying to read them everyday.

I'm not the only one who says you have to read the terms and conditions of a casino. Each and every casino will tell you this. Now when a casino makes a change that may affect players - like banned jurisdictions or the like, in most cases they will make an announcement. But honestly, it doesn't seem to happen too often.

If a change would include disallowing me to play, I would expect to be told. But that's not the issue here. It's not like the casino made a change mid-stroke; it's been there for years.

 

[ksech]

For the question about reading and changes in T&Cs...



From Club World Casino
15. CWCUSD reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of any offer including promotional and bonus offers at any time and it is the player’s responsibility to periodically check on this page and the promotions page for changes and updates.

From Aladdins Gold Casino
15. AGC reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of any offer including promotional and bonus offers at any time and it is the player’s responsibility to periodically check on this page and the promotions page for changes and updates.


From Royal Vegas (Fortune Lounge group)
9.1. Amendment

9.1.1. The Casino may, without notice to you, amend, alter, delete, interlineate or add to ("Changes") these Terms and Conditions, the promotion or competition-specific Terms and Conditions or Rules of Play at any time whatsoever.

9.1.2. These Changes shall become effective, and you shall be bound by these Changes, immediately upon their posting on the Casino Website.

9.1.3. You agree to regularly review these Terms and Conditions, promotion or competition-specific Terms and Conditions and the Rules of Play regularly in order to assess whether any Changes have been made.

From All Slots USA (US MG clone)NOTICE
1.1 We expressly reserve the right to modify, amend, supplement or modify these Terms and Conditions at any time without notice. The amended Terms and Conditions will be posted and made available on the casino. You are responsible for regularly reviewing these Terms and Conditions for changes and amendments. The revised Terms and Condition shall be effective immediately upon posting.
1.2 If you do not agree to be bound by (or cannot comply with) these Terms and Conditions, as amended, your only remedy is to discontinue your use of the Casino.
You will be deemed to have accepted the Terms and Conditions, as amended, if you continue to use the Casino after such amendment is effective.

From InetBet
All rules, regulations, and payoffs contained herein are subject to change and revision by the management without prior written notice

 

[silcnlayc]

ksech For the question about reading and changes in T&Cs...



From Club World Casino
15. CWCUSD reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of any offer including promotional and bonus offers at any time and it is the player’s responsibility to periodically check on this page and the promotions page for changes and updates.

From Aladdins Gold Casino
15. AGC reserves the right to change the terms and conditions of any offer including promotional and bonus offers at any time and it is the player’s responsibility to periodically check on this page and the promotions page for changes and updates.


From Royal Vegas (Fortune Lounge group)
9.1. Amendment

9.1.1. The Casino may, without notice to you, amend, alter, delete, interlineate or add to ("Changes") these Terms and Conditions, the promotion or competition-specific Terms and Conditions or Rules of Play at any time whatsoever.

9.1.2. These Changes shall become effective, and you shall be bound by these Changes, immediately upon their posting on the Casino Website.

9.1.3. You agree to regularly review these Terms and Conditions, promotion or competition-specific Terms and Conditions and the Rules of Play regularly in order to assess whether any Changes have been made.

From All Slots USA (US MG clone)NOTICE
1.1 We expressly reserve the right to modify, amend, supplement or modify these Terms and Conditions at any time without notice. The amended Terms and Conditions will be posted and made available on the casino. You are responsible for regularly reviewing these Terms and Conditions for changes and amendments. The revised Terms and Condition shall be effective immediately upon posting.
1.2 If you do not agree to be bound by (or cannot comply with) these Terms and Conditions, as amended, your only remedy is to discontinue your use of the Casino.
You will be deemed to have accepted the Terms and Conditions, as amended, if you continue to use the Casino after such amendment is effective.

From InetBet
All rules, regulations, and payoffs contained herein are subject to change and revision by the management without prior written notice

Amazing isn't it? If rules were kept to the minimum, and clear and understandable..like those bullet style rules...there would be no need to make continuous unreadable, undecipherable changes!

Here ya go!

1. You will play with your own monies. (You cannot use anothers credit card)
2. You must be 21 years of age
3. You will not use any devices or programs that are automated for play
4. You must deposit a minimum of $XX dollars
5. You can withdraw any amount by the same method of depositing or your choice from the list.
6. You will recieve a bonus at the month end in the amount of xx% of deposits as an appreciation for your patronage...without any playthrough required (simple huh?)
7. One account per player (multiple accounts for households withmore than 1 adult are approved on case by case)
8. ENJOY!

I mean, how hard is that? Really?

All that other garbage is just that, garbage..no ifs ands or buts....

Now, tell me ...geezes....