Club World USA -- Proof of Full Time Employment?

[justymich]

So wait, i'm really confused. Does this only apply to 18-21 year old students? I returned to school 6 months ago, and i'm 32 years old. I play at CW very often, does this mean if i ever managed to cashout i wouldn't be paid? These terms are so vague.

Thanks
Justy

 

[Marie2473]

I am not a student, however if I was asked this I would be pissed off. What kind of docs can prove that I have a fulltime job without me going to my boss and asking for something.
I dont think that my boss should know what I do and dont do online, as long as it is not suring work hours, and I also dont think that a casino has to know where I work and what I make (wich they would if I had to send in a payslip or something.
I guess it is ok that they wanna keep students from playing, but in the end, when you are 18 , you are 18 and considered an adult, therefor you should be able to do whatever u want.
What if this student is rich as hell and just plays for fun? Shouldnt he or she be able to for the reason that they are attending school?

This is a bit of a split for me since I see both sides ... hrmmm

 

[vinylweatherman]

Dan L informed Gambling Grumbles that he provided the documentation, When GG told this to the casino, it did not deny it. In fact, it confirmed everything that Dan L. said. Still, because he had originally said he was a student it refused to pay him.

Tom, tell me honestly -- if tomorrow, Player X who lost $7000 at Aladdin's Gold, were to ask for it back, saying that he is a student, but the only "proof" he could provide is a student ID that expired before he played, would Aladdin's give him his money?

If that ID would not be sufficient to determine that Player X is still a student, why is it sufficient in Dan L's case?

If you were to come across documents showing that Player X had, in fact, graduated before playing, would you still give him the $7000? Or would you cite those documents as proof that he was not a student when he played?

Again, if those documents would be considered proof that Player X had not been a student when he played, why would they not be seen in the same way in Dan L's case?

This is looking more and more like this is all about protecting the CASINO from STUDENTS, rather than the other way around.

It doesn't matter that your player recently graduated, he still presents the same RISK to the casino as a current students. He STILL has contact with his peers, and could STILL be in a position to collude with a "student player syndicate".

He said VERBALLY that he was a student, a casual answer to what appeared to be an inconsequential question about "occupation". Normally "occupation" doesn't matter, so people will give a "nearest answer" rather than a long winded explanation. I face this problem all the time. My own "occupation status" does NOT usually feature in those forms with a drop down menu. I am faced with looking at the options available, and picking one that I think fits the closest. I often give slightly different answers in different forms, because the menus offer different wordings and options.

When your player was asked for an occupation, he didn't have one. He chose the word "student", but could equally have said "unemployed" or even "graduate" - neither of which would have got him into trouble. At the time, the agent should have sought clarification, given that the student ID he supplied was expired, STRONGLY suggesting that he WAS, rather than IS, a "student", and used the expired student ID because he could offer nothing else with his photo on it.

CW put considerable weight on the fact that he supplied a student ID card to prove his ID. This is unwarranted, he provided an ID with a photo on it, the ONLY ONE HE HAD, SIMPLE! The option NOT to provide a photo ID simply was not available. There ARE no general photo ID cards in the UK (Tom should know this), people have OTHER cards that JUST HAPPEN to double up as a photo ID. I use my driving licence, this player used what HE had to hand, a student ID card left over from his recent studies.

He is in the UK, so probably has not yet learned to drive given that many universities do not permit students to keep cars on the premises, as well as the fact that to INSURE himself to drive would be MORE costly than the $5000 he spent at Club World. He simply preferred to spend his $5000 at Club World, rather than on a car and lessons/insurance. In his position, I would get the car first, THEN play at the casino.

I graduated well before the internet, but I DID gamble quite a bit on the fruit machines. I NEEDED a car to get to them, as well as the freedom it offered to go where and when I wanted, rather than where and when the trains and busses wanted to run.

My first "luxury" after graduating was to get an Atari 400 personal computer, so that I could try my hand at the emerging home video game industry (I've still got it).

 

[danl]

Vinylweatherman: I really appreciate your posts, but you are mistaken on the facts. I do have a driving licence and did provide it.

Regardless of that, and policy arguments aside, the issue in my case is that their terms say that students are not allowed to play, and I have provided documentation that demonstrate that I was not a student at the time when I registered, deposited or played at Aladdin's Gold Casino.

I would like to refrain from posting too extensively while there is a potentially active PAB, but I felt it was appropriate to clarify and correct the facts.


Regards,
Dan

 

[Simmo!]

A Bit OT: This student thing brings to light one of the biggest issues this industry faces. At what point do you verify a customer? All casinos will argue it isn't practical to do it pre-deposit because the player will go somewhere else. True. On the other hand, a publican won't sell alcohol to someone who looks underage then go and ask for ID later.

The difference is our industry isn't [properly] regulated so there is no penalty/incentive for not doing the right thing. In the absence of regulation that imposes these conditions it's down to the casino to do what's right for their reputation. If all casinos had a standard to adhere to then players would accept and be prepared for it.

Back OT: IMO in the Danl case, the obvious sticking point is that the player provided student ID as proof of ID. Then in retrospect, proof he was no longer a student. A bit of an Oops IMO. There is also the social responsibilty aspect that while he may no longer be a student, that doesn't mean he is yet endowed with the financial means to gamble. So I can see Club World's point here.

However, the bottom line IMO is "was Danl a student at the time he signed up and first played?". If the answer is "no" then I see no reason not to pay him (unless, as is so often the case, there are other factors in play we are not privvy to). If the answer is "yes" then strikes me it's a fair cop guv.

Cheers,

Simmo!

 

[Steve Russo]

it.

Back OT: IMO in the Danl case, the obvious sticking point is that the player provided student ID as proof of ID. Then in retrospect, proof he was no longer a student. A bit of an Oops IMO. There is also the social responsibilty aspect that while he may no longer be a student, that doesn't mean he is yet endowed with the financial means to gamble. So I can see Club World's point here.

Somehow, I suspect that refusing to pay him the $7000 he won isn't going to help him become endowed with the financial means to gamble.

In all seriousness, the casino is not claiming that he did not have the means to gamble. It would be hard-pressed to get away with that as he made a $5000 deposit.

Nor, for that matter, does Aladdin's Gold stop people from playing on its site if they are not in the best financial condition. All it requires is that they are able to fund their accounts.

The one question, as you pointed out, is whether Dan L was a full time student when he played.

Aladdin's Gold is contending that he was, based on an expired student ID that he provided and his reply on an on line chat. If Dan L is telling the truth about the documents which he says he sent them (and which the casino told Gambling Grumbles that it received) it has absolutely no reason to believe that he was a student.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

this is not the first time that the casino has made collecting winnings difficult for a player.

The player in the link only won $110 but it took her three months, and Gambling Grumbles' intervention, to collect it. The casino refused to accept the documents she sent, and eventually demanded both her birth certificate and her marriage license!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Vinylweatherman: I really appreciate your posts, but you are mistaken on the facts. I do have a driving licence and did provide it.
Regardless of that, and policy arguments aside, the issue in my case is that their terms say that students are not allowed to play, and I have provided documentation that demonstrate that I was not a student at the time when I registered, deposited or played at Aladdin's Gold Casino.

I would like to refrain from posting too extensively while there is a potentially active PAB, but I felt it was appropriate to clarify and correct the facts.


Regards,
Dan

That's an "Oops". This is the document casinos accept as "standard". I assumed you didn't have one because you fished out a rather unusual alternative, which lead you into this situation.

Had you provided your driving license instead, this issue would never have arisen, and CW would have never had cause to ask you to confirm your current occupation.

Although most casinos don't specifically ban students, they don't LIKE students either. They think students are a higher risk because of on-campus collusion and "syndicates". You should keep your student ID to yourself, and provide the driving licence the next time you are asked to verify your account at a casino. Further, register from your home PC, not that of a friend, internet cafe, or other such shared environment. This also makes casinos think you are a student of some description, because they see a number of players coming through a single internet connection.

Casinos prefer players to play from home, and alone. It reassures them that there is little chance that players are "up to something".

If you are asked again for "occupation", DON'T say "student", tell them you are currently unemployed but looking for your first job.

Questions may also be asked about where you found a spare $5000 from given that you recently graduated, but have yet to find a job.

Wait until the PAB has run it's course before doing anything other than correcting mis-statements (such as an assumption that you didn't have a driving licence as an alternative).

Apart from your specific case, there is a GENERAL issue that needs to be discussed so that other recent graduates don't walk into the same "trap" by careless use of language during account verification.

 

[justymich]

Well i also think its imperative to know what ages they restrict as far as students go, is this only for 18-21 year old students, or all students regardless of age? I know some people mentioned what if a 50 year old returns to school, does that make him ineligible to play? However i don't believe i saw anywhere it was answered. This particular point hits home with me, since i'm 32, and recently decided to pursue another avenue of work and return to school to get the education for it. I deposit regularly at CW and would hate to be in the same boat as Dan one day simply because i attend school.

 

[butterflyboogie]

Statement and Question

I think the crux of the matter is this:

It is irresponsible for us to encourage people to gamble when they are still dependant on their parents and attending school full time.

If you are 50 and going to school full time, I'm sure you have the means to support yourself - at least I would hope you would. That's a bit different than someone straight out of high school.

Bryan,

Although I do understand what you are saying here, the need to feel "concerned" about whether an 18 year old is gambling if he or she is a student and living with parents needs to be established "before" one single deposit is made. If the casino is willing to take the money on a contigency that he or she may or not be a student, then the same said casino should be willing to pay if the individual wins. My question, if it is established that Glunn is a student and the casino is not willing to pay for the winnings, is this casino (out of the need to make sure that student gamblers are not going to act irresponsible) going to refund his or her deposits? I mean, after all the casino does not want to encourage this behavior do they?

 

[Jasminebed]

Glunn's issue has been resolved. He's provided sufficent proof of his employment.

There is another new member, danl, who is a FORMER student, and told CW he was a student when he was in fact a GRADUATE. He provided his proof:

This isn't the case, as I provided a dated degree certificate, results transcript and an award that I received for being the best graduating student on my course, which demonstrate that I had already graduated (and therefore no longer a student) at the time when I registered, deposited and played at Aladdin's Gold Casino. My provision of documentation was confirmed in my action filed with Gambling Grumbles.

but his winnings were denied. His deposit(s) were returned however. The matter is now being PAB'd here at CM.

Although the age of the OP Glunn may have triggered his request for proof of employment, all CWC properties have the clause you may not be a full time student and play at their casinos, apparently regardless of age.

I read terms and conditions, and I've joined a couple of Clubworld properties. It didn't apply to me, but it is the very first term in their T&C's. I asked where it was, and it is front and centre.

I forgot it was there. People often play at casinos for years, and even though we should, do not go back and re-read the T&Cs of casinos we trust because we decided to go back to school.

My stay-at-home Mom daughter gave online gaming a foray (not CW). She's decided that back-to-school was the right move for her (// derail, I'm so glad//). She's not gambling, so it's not a personal issue. But for many parents of young children, a little online gambling is cheaper than a sitter. When my daughter was small and I was a married lady, Bingo was my night out.

I'm all for responsible gambling, but the whole rule seems rife with problems. I'm not employed, and I couldn't prove I'm not in school. And seriously, if I did back to school briefly to upgrade skills, how the heck would Clubworld Group know unless I told them?

I think people need to be responsible for themselves. And in my jurisdiction it's 18 for gambling.

I think VWM is more on the money about CWG wanting to protect themselves. Well designed bonus will only reduce the house edge, not eliminate it, so the rash of student "bonus abusers" would not pose any threat.

Continuing with this policy may lead to students that were not lucky enough to win on their deposits requesting refunds. And perhaps students would jump on the bandwagon know that it might be possible to slip through the nets on a withdrawal, while their deposits were risk free.

"The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, Gang aft agley, An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain"

While I don't think Clubworld's policy is unfair, I do think it is unwise.

 

[P.V.]

danl's case

For what it's worth the player did provide a student ID even though they had recently graduated. CW's T & C's state, line 12.

"The player is required to provide their complete, current and full personal details, including their phone number where they can be contacted. Incomplete, inaccurate or fraudulent information may result in the player's account being closed and any bonus and winnings being removed."

Inaccurate information, winnings being removed is the kicker here and the player did provide a student ID rather than his DL and after he had already graduated.

Appears to be a costly mistake and a firm enforcement of CW's T & C's.

 

[Steve Russo]

For what it's worth the player did provide a student ID even though they had recently graduated. CW's T & C's state, line 12.

"The player is required to provide their complete, current and full personal details, including their phone number where they can be contacted. Incomplete, inaccurate or fraudulent information may result in the player's account being closed and any bonus and winnings being removed."

Inaccurate information, winnings being removed is the kicker here and the player did provide a student ID rather than his DL and after he had already graduated.

Appears to be a costly mistake and a firm enforcement of CW's T & C's.

Actually, he provided both the student ID (which had expired) and his driver's license, which had not expired. Neither were fraudulent. About the only thing which could be considered fraudulent was him saying in an on line chat that he was a student -- and given that he had been a student most of his life and had not yet found his first job, even that would be a stretch.

The only valid argument against providing fraudulent or incomplete information is if the truth would make you ineligible to collect (eg: if you had a second account, you were not of legal age to play, or were, in fact, a full time student).

Frankly, I find it rather risky to play at a casino which reserves the right not to pay you if you do not provide "full personal details". That is just too broad.
What if I refuse to give them a copy of my medical history? If I don't agree to discuss my sex life with them? If I refuse to tell them whether or not I am a member of a particular political party?

All these are "personal details" yet a strict reading of their T&Cs would disqualify me from getting my winnings if I refuse to answer such questions.

Aladdin's certainly has the right to question me about matters which show whether or not I am eligible to play there. If necessary they can demand that I prove that eligibility. Dan L did do that. The fact that he took a short cut and said he was a "student" should not have mattered in the least after he provided the papers proving that he was not.

If you read the other grumble about Aladdin's, to which I linked earlier in this thread, the player (Laura D), was first asked by the casino to provide her passport and a recent utility bill. She did so.

Then they asked for a fax back. She sent it to them.

Then they asked for her driver's license (which she could not provide as she is not a driver).

This was all before she contacted Gambling Grumbles. Then, as I wrote in the published report:

Not having gotten a reply from their Support address, Gambling Grumbles contacted someone we know to be close to the casino's management. In the meantime, Aladdin's Gold upped the ante and now wanted copies of Laura's birth certificate and marriage license.

She sent them and our contact got back to us saying, "We have the player id’s as requested but we don’t have the players fax back form. This form is required for all cashouts to help prevent fraud. If you can ask Laura to send it again to cashier we can process the withdrawal."

Laura did, indeed, send it again. This time it was rejected on two counts: a. It did not have her user name on it (which, as they knew what it was, they could easily have added). b. They said it was too blurry and pixilated and told her to re-scan it at 300 dpi.

Gambling Grumbles asked Laura to send us a copy of the attachment she had sent so we could judge for ourselves if it was clearly readable. It was.

All this for a mere $110? Yes, after Gambling Grumbles intervened, Laura did get paid. Presumably Aladdin's was able to do it without seeing her marriage license and without learning the details of where and when she had her wedding.

But should they have ever asked for that in the first place? At what point is something none of a casino's business?

 

[Simmo!]

The complication seems to come in how you define the point at which you cease to become a student. I just asked a current UK student for their thoughts. Here are the salient points:

1) A student gets a U Card with a specific end date where student priviledges around campus cease.

2) The point of Graduation is normally assumed to be the end of your student days, but...

a) some people hang on until the U card priviledges stop
b) some students re-enroll for further studies​

I also wonder if another avenue possibly worth investigating is the point at which a local council say you cease to be eligible for student council tax benefits and go to normal adult rate.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

 

[CoolCat]

Is it just me or does anyone else thinks CWC is becoming a little shady as of lately?

 

[Diane]

Not to stir things up even more ------ but I feel compelled to insert that ANY business has the right to question their customers (especially those using credit cards) to determine if they are acceptable to the business. Whether its done on the front of the transaction (which I would recommend) or the back end.

Any B&M casino can prevent a player from entering/gambling. And if underage or other suspicious activity can also refuse to pay on gaming wins. There have been many examples of people under age hitting jackpots and not being allowed to collect in B&M Casinos. Funds return to the casino.

"We reserve the right to refuse to serve any patron" Has been a business mantra for a long time everywhere from bars to restaurants to casinos.

It appears that GUN11 and CWC are handling it correctly behind the scenes with PM's and that's where it should stay. Tom's explanation of not wanting to allow YOUNG students to play makes perfect sense.

People waving money in the face of a business are not guaranteed the right to enter the establishment and conduct transactions. The business can decide, IMO. I would suspect CWC doesn't go on a "witch hunt" to look for ways to disqualify winners. But if there are legitimate reasons, they can and should establish their rules. Spellling this out clearly in the T&C would make their position stronger and more defensible.

IMO

Diane

Yep, same old.


As long as you lose, you're welcome.

As soon as you win, we'll do everything to 'protect' you.

As far as I know, CWC does phoneverification as soon as you make your your first deposit at one of their casinos.
Would it really be so much trouble to include the question if the new player is a student or not?
Especially if the new player appears to be rather young?

_________________________________________________________

 

[Steve Russo]

Not to stir things up even more ------ but I feel compelled to insert that ANY business has the right to question their customers (especially those using credit cards) to determine if they are acceptable to the business. Whether its done on the front of the transaction (which I would recommend) or the back end.

I agree about the front end, but not the back end. A casino has the same right to refuse to let me play that I have to refuse to play at a particular casino.

However, once the casino accepts a bet it has no right to refuse to pay off.

 

[Diane]

It happens regularly in Vegas and other gaming venues. Underage person plays poker or slot machine and then happens to win a jackpot that requires identification. Underage person cannot prove they are over the allowed age and winnings are held pending proof of age. If proof is not provided, funds remain with the casino.

I saw it happen to a 17 year old in a poker room.in Vegas. Hit bad beat jackpot for $10,000, management suits came wanting his driver's license and Social Security card to fill out the 1099-G for IRS purposes. Underage kid could not provide. He admitted he was only 17, didn't get paid and got escorted out of casino. Jackpot stayed open until someone of proper age happened to win it.

Same thing has happened with slot machines that lock up with a win that triggers a hand pay. If you can't provide the documentation to support age, you do NOT get paid. You can call the gaming commission, you can call whoever you want, but if you were not "legal" by the standards set by casino or jurisdiction you will not get paid. You may have already wagered hundreds or thousands, and you may have already won considerable amounts --- but once you trigger their threshold for asking age verfication, you are done.

Should be sufficient screening and checking of ID's on front, but people are resourceful and do sneak in.

Diane

Diane

 

[Steve Russo]

Diane,

You are talking about cases where it is illegal for the player to be gambling, hence it would be against the law for the casino to pay him.

Moreover, if a casino has told a specific person that he is not allowed on its premises, it is permitted to void his bets (in some jurisdictions). That person, however, has broken the law by trespassing.

However, if I am a good card counter, and the casino does not want card counters playing blackjack -- even though it is legal -- it will pay me my winnings until such point as it tells me I am no longer eligible to be at its tables.

Once it accepts a bet, if there is no legal reason why it should not pay out, it will.

 

[maxd]

FYI, Bryan and I are working on this. The player's PAB has been submitted to the casino manager. They are usually very responsive to these issues so I expect to hear back on this soon.

LATER: in this and my subsequent posts I am referring to danl, not the OP (Glunn11). I have no PAB on file from Glunn11.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Once it accepts a bet, if there is no legal reason why it should not pay out, it will.

This is called and legally known as the "Contractual Aspect of Gambling". The online gaming industry prefers to ignore the above in entirety(+/-) via their TandC's (aka an idiot's Ten Commandments). Afterall stealing money is preferred to owing and paying money.

 

[maxd]

As far as the [strike]OP's[/strike] danl's issue is concerned I have heard back from CWC with info -- a chat transcript -- that triggered the concerns casino-side. I understand from what the OP told them where their issues arose.

That said this isn't settled yet and I'll be in touch with both the casino and the OP for more info and clarifications. Unfortunately the weekend is upon us and further developments will have to wait until Monday.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

As far as the OP's issue is concerned I have heard back from CWC with info -- a chat transcript -- that triggered the concerns casino-side. I understand from what the OP told them where their issues arose.

That said this isn't settled yet and I'll be in touch with both the casino and the OP for more info and clarifications. Unfortunately the weekend is upon us and further developments will have to wait until Monday.

Just to be sure I am not confused, the OP's aka Glen(n)'s issue(s) has/have not been settled yet. Am I correct?

 

[maxd]

My bad. I've been talking about 'danl'. I'll clean this up ASAP.

Ok, have clarified the previous posts. I've been talking about danl and his PAB. Nothing I've said applies to Glunn11 and I have no PAB on file for that user.

 

[Casinomeister]

If you can't provide the documentation to support age, you do NOT get paid. You can call the gaming commission, you can call whoever you want, but if you were not "legal" by the standards set by casino or jurisdiction you will not get paid. You may have already wagered hundreds or thousands, and you may have already won considerable amounts --- but once you trigger their threshold for asking age verfication, you are done.

Excellent point.

This is not an issue of "stealing" someone's money, this is an issue of a casino enforcing its policy. In fact, it a policy set forth to protect young players. Some of the comments about this casino being on the take are really unnecessary, and quite thoughtless in my opinion.

This casino does not allow underage play, and play from full time college students. That's clear as a bell and it's stated #1 in their terms and conditions - it's not hidden anywhere.

I'm not going to get involved with this publicly until this is settled via PAB.

 

[Glunn11]

Just to be sure I am not confused, the OP's aka Glen(n)'s issue(s) has/have not been settled yet. Am I correct?

My issues have all been squared away without PAB.

This thread is now a vessel for DanL's complaints afaik.