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ATTN: Casino Rep Club World, still waiting on T&C changes...

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by ksech, Jan 14, 2011.

    Jan 14, 2011
  1. ksech

    ksech Dormant account

    Occupation:
    yes
    Location:
    Here
    It's been over a month since the issue of the "full-time" student was brought forth, but to date, no changes OR clarifications on this term. Any chance of letting the players know when we/they can expect this ambiguous term to be rectified?

    Also, will the casino group be clarifying the "area of Markham in Canada" anytime soon? I'm sure there are still players who are "eagerly" awaiting these clarifications so they aren't left in the dark concerning their status...
     
    6 people like this.
  2. Jan 15, 2011
  3. jod5413

    jod5413 Is That Better?

    Occupation:
    having a good time doing anything
    Location:
    somewhere on the planet
    Good idea to bring this back up to the front page of the forum. All too often, things get shuffled to the "back of the line" and no one "does anything" to rectify the problem. :thumbsup:
     
  4. Jan 15, 2011
  5. ksech

    ksech Dormant account

    Occupation:
    yes
    Location:
    Here
    Maybe this thread needs the "rep friendly" thing Maxd suggested...
    Would be a good start to "see" how this rep friendly concept could go?
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Jan 15, 2011
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    @ksech, I have PM'd you with a couple options. Let me know and we'll proceed.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Jan 15, 2011
  9. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Ok, upgraded to Rep Friendly. Please see here for what that means.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Jan 17, 2011
  11. ksech

    ksech Dormant account

    Occupation:
    yes
    Location:
    Here
    Bump. Sorry, I think this is too important to let the thread slip to the bottom/ or off the first page.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jan 17, 2011
  13. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Just a thought, you might want to PM the rep, clubworld, point them to this thread and explain that it will be Rep Friendly.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Jan 17, 2011
  15. ksech

    ksech Dormant account

    Occupation:
    yes
    Location:
    Here
    Thanks max! The PM has been sent. :thumbsup:
     
  16. Jan 17, 2011
  17. clubworld

    clubworld Rogue casino operator

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    UK
    There have been some delays in working with our legal team in clarifying the Student clause in our terms. Getting lawyers to do anything quickly is a challenge, especially over Christmas.

    The opinion that we have received so far is that the intent of the term is clear so any changes required would be to cover certain situations that may be covered by the term unintentionally. We cannot cover every single edge case individually and attempting to do so would cause more problems than it would solve.

    Our current thinking is to simply apply a maximum age where the student clause could be applied, this way if you are over this age you know for a fact that there is nothing to worry about. Our lawyers need to sign off on this before we post it on our website.

    Regarding the excluded town of Markham in Canada, what further clarification do you require? I cannot really discuss too many specifics of our reasons for taking this action, but suffice to say it was in response to a specific problem.

    Kind Regards
    Tom
     
    2 people like this.
  18. Jan 17, 2011
  19. ksech

    ksech Dormant account

    Occupation:
    yes
    Location:
    Here
    I believe the area of Markham in Canada was unclear due to the fact that it is considered part of Ontario Canada, which would/could affect ANY Canadian player from that area.

    Just a quick question on the student term... wouldn't it just be easier to change the minimum age to 21 then?

    And thank you for answering, perhaps other members/ reps will see you are at least willing to take on questions in a "friendly" atmosphere....
    I personally think, this interaction is vital to keeping a healthy environment.
     
  20. Jan 17, 2011
  21. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Thanks to Tom for dropping by. :thumbsup:
     
  22. Jan 17, 2011
  23. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I think the question refers to the "area"
    I believe players were confused whether or not this meant city, count, region, whatever. Maybe you could modify the term "the area of Markham in Canada. If you are unsure whether or not this term pertains to you, please contact our customer support."
     
  24. Jan 17, 2011
  25. Webzcas

    Webzcas Winter is Coming!

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
    Tom, what about having the student clause highlighted during the sign up process. Whereby a player signing up has to confirm they are not in full time education.

    This should be a straightforward thing to do and will eliminate any grey areas moving forward and head off the potential for future longest thread of the year contenders. As this term is unique to Club World, I think this would make sense.

    This also wouldn't need your legal team to look at it and thus having to wait for their response. Meaning it could be done, pretty much straight away. :)
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Jan 17, 2011
  27. clubworld

    clubworld Rogue casino operator

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    UK
    Fair comments on the Area of Markham, I have updated the terms as follows:

    ...does not currently accept any real money wagers from the legal jurisdictions of the Netherlands Antilles, Costa Rica, Israel, France or the Town of Markham in Canada. If you are unsure as to whether these restrictions apply to you please contact support.

    I have to say i am not keen about posting individual terms on the registration page as it would diminish the player’s responsibility to visit the terms page. It is also tough to decide which terms to put there – if the student clause is in on the registration page then I should really put the age restriction there, and the geographical restrictions, and the one account per household….

    You can see where that would lead us :)

    Kind Regards
    Tom
     
  28. Jan 17, 2011
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It is terms that are considered unusual that would benefit from being highlighted.

    Rather than a load of terms, perhaps a system whereby specific terms are highlighted on sign-up as a declaration, in the form "Tick box to confirm I am not a student in full time education", in the same way that a declaration of age is often made explicitly at sign-up, rather than relying on the under age player reading the terms.

    The student and "Town of Markham" terms are unique to Club World, and much of the puzzlement is why it is ONLY Club World that has such a problem with these two categories. There must be other casinos exposed to the "unique problem" caused by the "Town of Markham", yet they don't deal with it by a blanket ban. No-one can really imagine HOW a problem of any description can be unique to a single town, as surely a problem of the same severity could occur from any location.
    The application of this term should use the OFFICIAL definition of the "town of Markham", such as used by the postal service, or local authority area of responsibilty. In the UK, a town can be excluded by giving a list of postcodes.
    For example, to exclude the city of Reading in Berkshire, a term would exclude "Players covered by the postcode RG1"

    The student clause DID have a maximum age, and it was the REMOVAL of this that created much of the confusion around these "edge cases".

    I don't believe the intent is clear either, since the LOGICAL intent seems to be to exclude young "undergraduate" students, yet has been used to exclude fully adult "further study" students, and not just undergraduates.

    An age of 25 might be the best option, as many companies use 25 as a marker between "young adult" and "responsible adult". There are some clubs and bars that are "25 and over" because they want to avoid the trouble caused by people who have reached the right age, but lack the experience and ability to exercise restraint.

    "Full time education" can also be a problem, as there are some practical courses where the definition can be vague. These are courses where there is an element of practical experience using a placement with a company, perhaps even a paid one.

    There is also "full time" study that can take place at home using "Computer Based Training", that is the equivalent of a traditional university course.

    Maybe the focus should be on whether a player has at least had his/her first taste of a "proper paid job" after completing their education.

    If this ends up being too complicated, the responsible gambling aspect could be applied by setting low deposit limits for young players, which to get raied they have to pass further checks to ensure they are fully aware of the negative aspects of gambling, and are NOT using funds they don't have. A ban on credit cards until such extra vetting has taken place should make it harder for inexperienced players to "chase" their losses with borrowed money, even if within the preset deposit limits.
     
  30. Jan 17, 2011
  31. Webzcas

    Webzcas Winter is Coming!

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
    You have to confirm you are of legal age no?

    This would be an addition to that and would make sense, seeing as the term is unique to Club World.

    I don't see the issue here, seeing as the term caused a lot of unnecessary flak on this forum and it certainly does not open up a pandora's box or set a precedent. As the term is unique to Club World and should be highlighted ( I was not aware of it for example and I am an affiliate ).
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Jan 17, 2011
  33. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    FWIW I believe I've had PABs with other casinos who had the very same Markham problem. 'Course they hadn't included it in their Terms but that particular issue is not unique to CW. Mucho fraud partly aided by some very particular demographic features of that place. Not saying those features are unique to Markham but the fraudster problem was very much exacerbated by said features.
     
  34. Jan 17, 2011
  35. slotjunkie

    slotjunkie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Interior Designer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Is there a way for the system to just block them from further registration if they are under age? And if they lie and put in a a made up birthdate, they would clearly be in violation thus causing any winnings to be void!
     
  36. Jan 17, 2011
  37. jod5413

    jod5413 Is That Better?

    Occupation:
    having a good time doing anything
    Location:
    somewhere on the planet
    I applaud Tom for coming forward to let us prove that Casinomeister members can, in fact, be polite and civilized.

    As far as the student rule goes, I really think it should be removed totally and just an age minimum should be required. If you are old enough to protect your country, you should be allowed to play at casinos. Eighteen is the magic number. Some casinos use 18 some use 21. Either way, the student criteria is too restrictive and confusing and should be abandoned completely, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jan 18, 2011
  39. clubworld

    clubworld Rogue casino operator

    Occupation:
    Casino Manager
    Location:
    UK
    At the moment there is no minimum age on the registration form, instead the server instantly bans the underage account as it is created in the database preventing them from ever logging into it.

    This way if they then create another account but enter an age above the minimum the system can automatically link it to the banned underage account and prevent deposits.

    I think that the issue with the student clause is not so much making players aware of it – after all there are many items in our terms of use and players need to be aware of all of them.

    In my view the objective is to write the term in such a way that when players do read it they are left in as little doubt as possible as to whether or not it applies to them.
     

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