Casino owners/Reps and Affiliates and All Interested Players

[Scooter7]

I agree wholeheartedly with Simmo's analysis and suggestion.
What we'd all like to see is transparency and honesty that results in trust, respect, and loyalty from the players towards the (non-rogue) casino operators and software providers.

Personally, I would never play at RTG because I don't trust them. Playtech and Rival also give me pause with respect to where my entertainment dollar goes for similar, but less severe reasons.

Microgaming and Cryptologic are the only online providers (32Red and InterCasino being the top casinos from each) that I do trust and even MG doesn't give me 100% confidence. They lose points for their (imho) greedy and unfair tournament prize pool issues, thus eroding some of my trust.

I do believe (as others have stated) that even the lowest slot machine returns do exceed acceptable levels at most, if not all land-based casinos, but it's not an apples to apples comparison because a land-based casino, in most cases, doesn't have the same level of 'instant competition' that the online world provides. The nature of the internet allows players to be one click away from the next casino which should ensure a better 'sale price' for their merchandise as opposed to land-based casinos. Here in Toronto, Canada, one can go 70 miles north of Toronto to a full-sized, commercial casino (Rama). If the payouts aren't acceptable once you're there, you're a lot farther than 'one click' from the competition-you've got a 160 mile drive to get to Niagara Falls. The nature of offline geography lends itself to artificially higher profit margins.

In the long run, we as players are better off with the level of competition that the internet provides as long as the stench of the rogues can be reduced and/or eliminated; keeping the reputable operators from being tainted by their underhanded antics.

 

[Mavin1]

If you want my opinion (which you do because you started a public thread ) then you are going about this the wrong way. Instead of complaining about how you think casinos are reducing specific game payouts which a) will achieve nothing and b) is a regular occurrence here ever since I can remember, you should be lobbying for the software providers to state the expected return percentages in the paytable of each of the games, like Wagerworks already do to their great credit.

That would be a far more productive use of time than yet another complaint thread, would benefit players the world over, get you lots of kudos and prove once and for all going forward whether game percentages change.

Or you could just carry on complaining and we'll go through it all again in a few weeks. And then again, and again...ad infinitum 'til we die or get really, really bored

I think if you and your thankers are tired and bored of those of us that have only the avenue of a public forum to voice our opinions, then why don't you go lobby for us to get things fixed and then we will shut up as you wish and not bore you anymore. Or as NJ would say, if you are bored by these threads then why are you posting in them?

 

[Simmo!]

...why don't you go lobby for us to get things fixed and then we will shut up as you wish and not bore you anymore.

I think you may have missed the point I was making. It wasn't that you bore me, I was assuming you wanted things to change or at least to be more transparent so I was giving you a suggestion to help you achieve that goal.

I'll happily lend you my support if you want to take the idea forward.

 

[silcnlayc]

Simmo!:you should be lobbying for the software providers to state the expected return percentages in the paytable of each of the games

All due respect Simmo!, if the players here don't believe, how are we going to get any provider to listen to us ?? We are only one...and a single voice without clout is always ignored, I know...I have been there.

If others with more clout than a lowly player would step up as a WHOLE (group wise)and believe what you just said that can make a difference for us players, that can gain the ear of these providers, maybe then we would see this transparency..

This IS the only place we have as a player...and some casinos do listen up to point, until it affects the bottom line that they have raised higher...


All done...sad it always comes to this point...where are all the affiliates/webmasters/ etc that should be doing this lobbying for us...why do they not listen to our pleas? What we get is exactly this response..."Take it somewhere else". As I said...all done...
...

 

[Simmo!]

All due respect Simmo!, if the players here don't believe, how are we going to get any provider to listen to us ??

Don't know 'til you try. CM is quite a powerful forum for disseminating opinions and information. There are tools to help lobbying, you have people here who know providers very well, others who attend industry conferences, even the providers themselves stop by. But they're not going to read rant threads.

My bet is that even operators will support it (if they don't alter payouts!) because they know the percentages compare favourably to land-based and are usually controlled by the software provider anyway.

So the choices are a) don't bother trying or b) give it a shot. It needs someone who feels strongly about it to organise it, but I think you'll find a lot of support from players, affiliates and even some operators. Will it work? Who knows...but it might.

 

[Mavin1]

I think you may have missed the point I was making. It wasn't that you bore me, I was assuming you wanted things to change or at least to be more transparent so I was giving you a suggestion to help you achieve that goal.

I'll happily lend you my support if you want to take the idea forward.

Well it was that unallowed pms raising it's ugly head again. Your suggestions are great for those would can actually do such a thing. Sure I want change, but so does everyone with questions or concerns, but what does one do about it? How do you fix it or make it better?
If you sincerely have real suggestions, then I am willing to hear it, but if this is a close the door approach then my passion for an idea will get dashed as so many others have.

Silcynlace couldn't have said it better! We at the bottom need those above us to speak for us, as we are so transparent they don't even see us.

 

[Scooter7]

My bet is that even operators will support it (if they don't alter payouts!) because they know the percentages compare favourably to land-based and are usually controlled by the software provider anyway.

...but I think you'll find a lot of support from players, affiliates and even some operators. Will it work? Who knows...but it might.

Very true statements. From the point of view of an honest operator or software provider, more transparency will expose the rogues for what they are and allow the upstanding casinos and their software to shine in a favourable light. That will widen the gap between the best and worst in the business to the benefit of both the good providers and their loyal players.

 

[kakata]

this thread cost me 160 bux....
I see some ppl saying that they get a lot of plaingtime at TOP GAME...of course they do..!!!
Ive been betting the minimum all the time and what I got is...a lot of 5/ 15/ 25/45/cents on an average bet of 35c.
Now what Im tring to say in my broken english is:
I want rather lose at any RTG (not all of em) and DREAM i might win big (as I did 5 times) ...instead of a painfull , boring...slow continuing loss at topgame who will give you plaing time (sure)but who cares???
IMO
I prefer to have a DREAM where I can have a shot to win a lot on a small bet (cause thats what i can afford "A SMALL BET") instead of losing steadely 5c. a spin, knowing already (like at top game) that I will NEVER win sh*t.
Just my opinion...not intended to offend anyone...so please do not attack me.

 

[Simmo!]

...why don't you go lobby for us to get things fixed and then we will shut up as you wish...

...where are all the affiliates/webmasters/ etc that should be doing this lobbying for us...

How do you fix it or make it better?
If you sincerely have real suggestions, then I am willing to hear it but if this is a close the door approach then my passion for an idea will get dashed as so many others have

You can't expect everyone else to do the work for you. Especially when you talk to them like that. You'll get support from those people, but you're the ones that are asking for a solution - there is no guarantee that this is the *right* solution, but it's as good a starting point as any and at the very least will get the message across in a positive rather than in this conspiracy-theorist manner. It needs thought, a bit of planning, but if you really want something then it doesn't always come without a fight, right?

From the point of view of an honest operator or software provider, more transparency will expose the rogues for what they are and allow the upstanding casinos and their software to shine in a favourable light. That will widen the gap between the best and worst in the business to the benefit of both the good providers and their loyal players.

Positive strategies are always more effective than negative ones in my opinion.

 

[Mavin1]

this thread cost me 160 bux....
I see some ppl saying that they get a lot of plaingtime at TOP GAME...of course they do..!!!
Ive been betting the minimum all the time and what I got is...a lot of 5/ 15/ 25/45/cents on an average bet of 35c.
Now what Im tring to say in my broken english is:
I want rather lose at any RTG (not all of em) and DREAM i might win big (as I did 5 times) ...instead of a painfull , boring...slow continuing loss at topgame who will give you plaing time (sure)but who cares???
IMO
I prefer to have a DREAM where I can have a shot to win a lot on a small bet (cause thats what i can afford "A SMALL BET") instead of losing steadely 5c. a spin, knowing already (like at top game) that I will NEVER win sh*t.
Just my opinion...not intended to offend anyone...so please do not attack me.

Sorry Kakata

 

[Mavin1]

Okay, I just shot this quick email off to Top Games website.

Hi, I have been having a heated discussion on Casinomeisters forum about casinos, decreasing the line wins and if this is with all casinos or just yours. My thread is Casino owners/Reps/Affiliates and all interested players, if you would like to give your inuput.
I have been playing Top Game mostly at Rome since June and have noticed the decreased line win payouts from then until now. Can you explain why this change has taken place?
I have finally unistalled Rome and other Top Game casinos due to the fact that now I am forced to play at a higher wager amount to win what I did at the lower amount before.
Bad enough that the five free spin rounds are a total bust, but they have no multipliers to even set them apart from regular play. Like with Reel Crime, I play at $1, get the five free spins and win a stinking 20 cents!
On Diablo 13, since the wilds were put back on reels 1 and 5, the play has been terrible, it used to be my favorite, but now it just takes and rarely gives.
But the fun of playing Top Game and staying loyal has been pretty much dashed for me since the line payouts have been decreased.
I do have a posted win from a couple months back on Fandango, I was playing 75 cents a spin, hit the pistols and wilds for a line win of $500. Then a bit later I was playing the Pharoah multi slot, at 75 cents a spin and got all the Pharoahs with wilds and it paid only $100. The Pistols and Pharoah are both the high paying symbols.
But all the cuts no matter how small the win is very discouraging now since being with Top Game before these changes were made.
Eviecakes

 

[Nifty29]

I think its always admirable when someone feels passionate about something to a point when they want to organise some kind of campaign/petition etc.....so Mavin, its time to step up to the plate!

Its a topic very close to your heart, so you would be the perfect person to get things rolling. Of course, its up to you how you go about it but I can geiv you a few tips form my years around CM:

1. Always (and I mean always) be polite and keep all your comments on topic. Never get personal - you will lose support straight away.

2. Start a new thread which includes some kind of poll e.g. "have payouts decreased' or 'do you feel you are losing more than you used to' or something along those lines. Let it stay around for a few weeks and encourage members to vote and post.

3. Use the results of that poll to lobby Bryan or start a petition, or even compose a group letter to some major operators to see if they are prepared to be more transparent. At least with some kind of evidence of player sentiment, you have something to hang your hat on.

4. I would be realistic about what information will be provided, or what changes will be made by operators. A lot of this stuff is (or at least has been) confidential for commercial reasons so they may not be inclined to answer all your questions. Remember, the information from operators will be what they want you to have and you will have to trust them to some degree....and this can be a big leap if you already believe they are dudding you.

I would support you, as Im sure most members would, in attaining greater transparency from casinos. It is also important, however, to stress to players who say 'they never seem to cash out' that there are methods you can employ to change that to some degree and it cant always be blamed on casino payout % (as Ive stated in previous posts)

Mavin - the floor is yours!!

 

[kakata]

please be careful Mavin...cause Im on the floor, do not step on me

 

[casinojack]

Very true statements. From the point of view of an honest operator or software provider, more transparency will expose the rogues for what they are and allow the upstanding casinos and their software to shine in a favourable light. That will widen the gap between the best and worst in the business to the benefit of both the good providers and their loyal players.

Keep in mind also though, some of us operators CANNOT share a lot of details even if we wanted to...Non disclosure agreements etc...Is not really that easy but I would be willing to hear thought on how coulan operator say claim a slot is set at 97.5%. then you want proof? We cannot show the backend so then what?

Just curious...and I will help on our own to get to where you you want as much as we can.

 

[Scooter7]

on how coulan operator say claim a slot is set at 97.5%. then you want proof? We cannot show the backend so then what?

Just curious...and I will help on our own to get to where you you want as much as we can.

You've hit on the main part of the problem. If you go to a land-based casino in a regulated jurisdiction, you know (or should know) that the games presented are honest and fair, having been approved by the regulatory body. You don't even need to trust the casino operator; just the licensing body.

Online, such regulatory bodies are not universally trustworthy (Kana-ha-ha-ke), Costa Rica, etc.

If I told you that software company 'x' had submitted their games and software to the New Jersey Gambling Commission and been tested and approved, would that provide players with reason to believe company 'x' was fair? It's all about regulation AND trusting the regulators.

There are so many examples of unfair, unethical, and/or (what would be) illegal practices in the online gambling world that trust is a scarce commodity. Additionally, a large percentage of gamblers are superstitious and/or have very selective and short memories, further adding to the problem. Player 'a' lost their deposit at one casino and assumes cheating (because no one they trust can confirm the fairness of their games). Player 'b' made a fortune at the same casino and got paid so their opinion of that casino is very good. (etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum).

It all comes down to the fact that rogue operators cannot stand up to the light of scrutiny and scrutiny can only be trusted if the scrutineers are credible. To me, that's the first step; finding scrutineers that are credible. The rest will fall in place in short order if the first step can be taken.

 

[Mavin1]

Keep in mind also though, some of us operators CANNOT share a lot of details even if we wanted to...Non disclosure agreements etc...Is not really that easy but I would be willing to hear thought on how coulan operator say claim a slot is set at 97.5%. then you want proof? We cannot show the backend so then what?

Just curious...and I will help on our own to get to where you you want as much as we can.

Hi Casinojack, thank you for your input. Let me ask you then if I a player wanted to know if you had decreased the line payouts, decreased number of bonus rounds or freespins alotted for a time frame could you divulge this information or does it fall the non disclosure agreement?

 

[Simmo!]

IMO transparency in fairness of the games is a key factor in the online gambling industry moving forward. Game fairness has been a topic of debate on all forums for many years and is a large factor in determining why our industry is looked on with a certain level of distrust.

A good starting point for this IMO is for the software providers to implement payout information in each specific game. Maybe even with a "switch" that means an operator can show it or not show it. That puts the software providers in a position of trust at least.

The operators who choose to be transparent can be - those who don't wish to be so can then become the basis for discussions like this. This could also provide a competitive edge to those operators who want it aswell, something that is hard to find, or hard to make obvious, when so many casinos use the same software.

If indeed it transpires that certain software providers allow their licencees to alter payout ratios, this could potentially be useful to those casinos who truly run a fair and proper operation and detrimental to those who don't. That is in everyone's best interests, including the software providers who rely on the licencees for their reputation.

Also worth noting that ICE is coming up in London in January and several members of this board will be attending. Although software providers have a tendency not to respond publically to players, thats not to say they don't listen and the majority of software providers do exhibit there.

I have to say that this is one thing I think the industry really needs if it is to be taken seriously, especially considering the legal moves in certain countries. Wagerworks do it and not only do you rarely see their games questioned but the numbers also inspire confidence. In the one instance I can remember when a slot payout of 93% was queried, that number was still enough to prove that online expected returns are pretty decent.

 

[DogBoy001]

If indeed it transpires that certain software providers allow their licencees to alter payout ratios, this could potentially be useful to those casinos who truly run a fair and proper operation and detrimental to those who don't. That is in everyone's best interests, including the software providers who rely on the licencees for their reputation.

I have to say that this is one thing I think the industry really needs if it is to be taken seriously, especially considering the legal moves in certain countries. Wagerworks do it and not only do you rarely see their games questioned but the numbers also inspire confidence. In the one instance I can remember when a slot payout of 93% was queried, that number was still enough to prove that online expected returns are pretty decent.

Heya

Leaving aside the primary issue raised, I would point out that it is perfectly fair and reasonable to allow operators to have a range of possible RTP settings.

This is standard practice in the traditional B&M industry, hence why it's interesting that you raise Wagerworks as an example.

If the internet industry is ever regulated by the U.S., it will allow operators to have different RTP settings, within certain bands (as per every B&M jurisdiction in the country).
And if it follows the B&M regulations then the RTP setting in use will NOT be something that operators will have to disclose.
Wagerworks would adhere to this, as IGT their mother company does in traditional operations.

Whether it should be is the topic (apologies), but I thought I'd throw in my 2c to clarify that allowing different RTP settings does not make one's operation less than a "fair and proper operation"

Woooof

 

[KasinoKing]

Let me ask you then if I a player wanted to know if you had decreased the line payouts...

You keep making this comment, but I don't recall you giving any specifics..

Can you give me some examples of a Top Game slot which you think has had the pay-table changed, and when you think it changed?
Then I will see if I can find some old tables to compare with current so we can see.

KK

 

[Simmo!]

Heya

Leaving aside the primary issue raised, I would point out that it is perfectly fair and reasonable to allow operators to have a range of possible RTP settings.

This is standard practice in the traditional B&M industry, hence why it's interesting that you raise Wagerworks as an example.

There is however quite a difference in perception between the online industry and the well established B&M industry. In order to get anywhere near a level footing in terms of trust, and in light of a very limited largely self-policed regulatory environment, the industry needs to do all it can to raise it's image and profile.

To this end, IMO there need to be extra measures taken from within to garner that trust and prove that the industry isn't as grey as some would like to think it is. Right now, there are areas of the industry which could be vastly improved to this end, and until such a time as global, albeit fragmented, regulation is in place, these changes have to come from within. That does of course assume that the industry *wants* to improve

 

[DogBoy001]

There is however quite a difference in perception between the online industry and the well established B&M industry. In order to get anywhere near a level footing in terms of trust, and in light of a very limited largely self-policed regulatory environment, the industry needs to do all it can to raise it's image and profile.

To this end, IMO there need to be extra measures taken from within to garner that trust and prove that the industry isn't as grey as some would like to think it is. Right now, there are areas of the industry which could be vastly improved to this end, and until such a time as global, albeit fragmented, regulation is in place, these changes have to come from within. That does of course assume that the industry *wants* to improve

Good points, and in relation to a self-regulated industry I couldn't agree more

 

[Nifty29]

God I love a good meaty discussion!

Thanks everyone for your valued input..some excellent points raised, especially about the acceptable and regulated RTP changes available to land based operators. I think sometimes we forget that B&Ms dont exactly provide you with an FAQ when you enter the venue with everything you need to know before you place a bet, and I havent seen where each machine has the current RTP posted (I know occasionally its done for promo purposes etc)

DogBoy - do you know how all this works in Victoria, with the central computer recording each bet and controlling RTP as per the legislation? Do operators have no control in Victoria? I know its different in NSW and SA, particularly where in SA the venues actually 'purchase' the machines rather than having them provided by a 3rd party like Tabcorp etc.

(Sorry if Im derailing here but its kinda relevant )

Wagerworks do it and not only do you rarely see their games questioned but the numbers also inspire confidence

When will Wagerworks let us Aussies PLAY??? I love their games and its so damn annoying!

 

[Simmo!]

When will Wagerworks let us Aussies PLAY??? I love their games and its so damn annoying!

Because they are owned by IGT, that won't happen until Aussie laws permit it - it might even be after US legislation.

 

[DogBoy001]

DogBoy - do you know how all this works in Victoria, with the central computer recording each bet and controlling RTP as per the legislation? Do operators have no control in Victoria? I know its different in NSW and SA, particularly where in SA the venues actually 'purchase' the machines rather than having them provided by a 3rd party like Tabcorp etc.

Heya,

As far as I know there are no operational intranet systems within Australia (yet).
The offices of liquor and gaming regulation in QLD and NSW have recently drafted amendments to allow intranet operation, but at this stage the only non-venue interaction (that I'm aware of) relates to management systems that simply collate information, there is no control.
The key here being whether the results are centrally-driven (intranet with RNG at server), centrally-downloaded (download from server but RNG at machine) or stand-alone (game and RNG is located at the machine, with no avenue for alteration remotely)

Intranet system regulation will not differ from stand-alone machine regulation as far as RTP (or other game mechanics such as max bet, max win etc) are concerned.
Hence in most jurisdictions operators will be able to change an RTP setting once every (n) days, even if they change the game that is being displayed.
As with stand-alone systems there is no requirement to display the RTP in use.
Most pub and club operators will never want to change the RTP anyway, as most pub and club operators set the RTP to the lowest legal variation.

Incidentally, there's also no difference in the frequency with which an operator can change RTP based on whether they own a machine, or lease it, they're still bound by the legislation, and also bound by the available RTP variations the game has been supplied with.

Woooof

 

[casinojack]

Hi Casinojack, thank you for your input. Let me ask you then if I a player wanted to know if you had decreased the line payouts, decreased number of bonus rounds or freespins alotted for a time frame could you divulge this information or does it fall the non disclosure agreement?

I could tell you that as far as RTG goes, you can find most of this information on RTG's website. They have been certified as being fair, and this latest software release has some things that make the games more then fair.

I will tell you about half our slots are set at the max payout we can do, average 97%. We don't sit there "playing" with the number day in and day out.

I think is important to maybe try and filter a few things.

1. Make a list of software providers you feel are fair. RTG, MG, Playtech, etc etc etc. I think there are quite a few brands noone would say the software is rigged

2. The the other side of the coin is the operators themselves.

I might be confused but reading this thread seems to go back and forth. I will answer anything I can.

EDIT: not that the RTP the minimum payout in Nevada is 75%, and in New Jersey, 83%. RTG Min you can set ona few machines is WELL over this.