Casino owners/Reps and Affiliates and All Interested Players

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
I think casino owners, reps and affiliates should be lobbying to bring true fair play back to online gaming. Now I don't want to hear the bull about Variances, RNG's or any technical baloney to explain away why the majority of players are dissapointed so many times.
I have noticed a new slight to even drastic trend of decreased prizes on line wins, decreased to never getting bonus rounds and if you do get bonus rounds decreased chances that the round will outshine the regular play.
A few months back I had posted a winning screenshot of $500 playing at 75 cents a spin and hit wilds and pistols on Fandango, a couple months later playing the Pharoah game at the same casino I hit wilds and the Pharoahs for 5 of a kind on a payline, playing 75 cents and was paid $100. The pharoah is equivalent to pistols.
So okay, maybe the $500 was excessive, but to cut it down to $100 is a bit drastic. Now this is just one example.
I believe that wins at any and all casinos has been decreased but maybe not as noticeable as some are.
It is also not fair play when for instance playing RTG's, spending a good amount of money and time and not getting any bonus rounds what so ever, time and time again! A couple times on my last play at an RTG casino I hit the T-Rex bonus rounds 4 times, every time the 3 eggs only gave 2 spins per egg, so each time I only won 6 free spins. Then to add insult to injury not once did the dino's come toghether to make a decent win. One round was a grand total win of $1.65 or so and none were higher than $6.00. On the new x-mas themed games, santa has never won during my many sessions and the other one which I played at least 6 times for extended periods never once gave a bonus round.
The thing that makes these games at any and all of the casino's is the bonus rounds, this is the fun and exciting part of playing, but if they are going to continually being watered down and feel more like a lottery than a slot, then the whole reason why you want us to play is only down to the money and not to give your customers a true and fun experience.
Sure there will always be the die hard gamer out there that will continue to play no matter what, but there is also I'm sure a good portion of small time revenue that will be lost because of these on going changes. These things will effect the pocketbooks of the Owners, Reps and Affiliates one day just as it is affecting players pocketbooks now.

So please, no tech excuses.
 
Last edited:

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
So no tech baloney, no expaining it away by high variance or RNGS. Well that leaves one remaining factor you might want to consider, its called luck!

Yes believe it or not all players need an element of this during their play, perhaps you have just had a bad run and are seeking explanations for problems that are not really there.

Sorry I can't be more helpful or give you the answers you perhaps want to hear, but as you seem to have ruled out the obvious explanations then you are not left with an awful lot......apart from luck.

Other than that perhaps look at the way you play, your bet size in proportion to your bankroll, the type of games you play, how long your sessions last.

Mike
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
So no tech baloney, no expaining it away by high variance or RNGS. Well that leaves one remaining factor you might want to consider, its called luck!

Yes believe it or not all players need an element of this during their play, perhaps you have just had a bad run and are seeking explanations for problems that are not really there.

Sorry I can't be more helpful or give you the answers you perhaps want to hear, but as you seem to have ruled out the obvious explanations then you are not left with an awful lot......apart from luck.

Other than that perhaps look at the way you play, your bet size in proportion to your bankroll, the type of games you play, how long your sessions last.

Mike



Well let's rule out the "luck" explaination too. You have not addressed my posted observation, just trying to turn it around to my bad luck or my good luck. This is not what this post is about.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I have been waiting 3 years for 5 scatters on Thunderstruck and I've hit two of them in the last week and I'm up overall on my past 3 months play for the first time in God knows how long. I'd like to know why the casinos are suddenly being so generous. It's perplexing. :cool: It might have something to do with the fact that I've got a new strategy that involves hitting the cashout button, but let's rule that out.

Ok...Mavin...sorry that was a bit tongue in cheek ;) My point being that i've done well the last few months and you can't rule out things like luck, variance and other factors because, like it or not, they play an important part. It's a bit like asking why Obama got elected but you rule out voting as an answer :D

Hey look, if your point is that the casino software providers have downgraded all their paytables so their clients can make more money, then maybe you are right, who knows - most of them aren't transparent in that regard and IMO they should be. But I think its unlikely and even if they did, i bet they would still be better than B&M slot payouts.
 

dominique

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Location
The Boonies
and even if they did, i bet they would still be better than B&M slot payouts.

You can say that again!

Payouts in Vegas positively SUCK! Yes, it's still good entertainment, but it's getting to where it's barely gambling anymore, it's just paying to see the game play....
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
My reason for ruling out the routine responses for Variances, RNG's, Luck and what have you is because they don't actually come out and say yes, before you would win $1 with 4 symbols alike on a winning payline but now the same scenario will only win you 45 cents.
Or before you could have hundreds hitting free spins/bonus rounds where now we have alotted them to only 45 to hitting these features.
So in other words, what I would win at 40 cents now costs me $1.25 to get.
Just an example of what I am meaning and why the canned response does not answer my post.


As for voting, I won't even go there.;)
 
Last edited:

Wildfire7

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Location
UK
before you would win $1 with 4 symbols alike on a winning payline but now the same scenario will only win you 45 cents.
Or before you could have hundreds hitting free spins/bonus rounds where now we have alotted them to only 45 to hitting these features.
So in other words, what I would win at 40 cents now costs me $1.25 to get.
Just an example of what I am meaning and why the canned response does not answer my post.


As for voting, I won't even go there.;)

Hi Mavin

Another thing to consider is choice. There are more casinos and more games available than ever. For us consumers this can only be a good thing.
As for paytables changing I can't say I have noticed.

What you would get for 5 scatters at Thunderstruck 5 years ago, you would get exactly the same today. The bonus rounds and free spins are harder to quantify as they vary so greatly on their payouts.

Simmo, in your voting anology I was thinking it was a good job you didn't use Bushs 2000 US presidential elections as the analogy! :D
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
As for voting, I won't even go there.;)

Thought you'd like that one ;)

Simmo, in your voting anology I was thinking it was a good job you didn't use Bushs 2000 US presidential elections as the analogy! :D

LOL yeah...shooting myself in the foot I try to avoid!

Dominique said:
but it's getting to where it's barely gambling anymore, it's just paying to see the game play....

:lolup:
 

NicolasJohnson

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Location
A Place
hmmm, you seem to feel ALL casinos cheat so my advice is...

First I would like to say, I can't answer your question, as you are asking 'why' we did something you have no evidence we did (and especially in our case, you can't have evidence, since we didn't do anything. I should know, I can see the payouts).

If you don't want to hear about variance or luck, and are 100% convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you (which is what you implied in your post), then I suggest you stop playing online casinos. If you TRULY believe that, then there can be no fun in playing, and fun should be the ultimate goal of every casino gambler. If it is not fun, I suggest you don't gamble.

We want to have customers, but only ones that enjoy a healthy hobby. If you want to hear our honest answer, we have the exact payout % we did when we started (and is pretty standard). That is part of variance, even we as operators feel it. The only way you can get a fair result is through randomness, and with that comes variance/luck.

P.S. I'm not saying you shouldn't gamble, just don't gamble if it ONLY leads to you being upset and having the feeling of being cheated.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I play mostly MGS, and I HAVE noticed a trend towards lower overall prizes for line wins in the base game. I think this is down to more being allocated to "spicier" bonus rounds. Thunderstruck pays 10,000 for 5 wilds, but recent video slots have seen lower top payouts, even a mere 500 for one. This is because more is paid out in the bonus rounds, so not only are the paytables lower, the slot will suck your money very quickly if the bonus round fails to come along.

The other trend is for more and more winlines, so the maximum payouts for line wins are much lower as a proportion of TOTAL bet. This also makes a slot appear to "suck" during play. Slots such as Cashapillar, with 100 lines, APPEAR to be low variance, but because of clever reel design are actually HIGH variance. Cashapillar only really pays well if you get stacked wilds in view, and in the right place. Many slots also seem to no longer offer small prizes for 2 of a kind, such as the prizes on Thunderstruck for 2 of "9", "hammer", and "shaft".

RTG, as we know, can operate slots at any RTP between 97.5% and 91%. Operators of RTG casinos can easily change these settings, and all the players will see is a change in the "tightness" of the slot over extended periods of play.
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
First I would like to say, I can't answer your question, as you are asking 'why' we did something you have no evidence we did (and especially in our case, you can't have evidence, since we didn't do anything. I should know, I can see the payouts).

If you don't want to hear about variance or luck, and are 100% convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you (which is what you implied in your post), then I suggest you stop playing online casinos. If you TRULY believe that, then there can be no fun in playing, and fun should be the ultimate goal of every casino gambler. If it is not fun, I suggest you don't gamble.

We want to have customers, but only ones that enjoy a healthy hobby. If you want to hear our honest answer, we have the exact payout % we did when we started (and is pretty standard). That is part of variance, even we as operators feel it. The only way you can get a fair result is through randomness, and with that comes variance/luck.

P.S. I'm not saying you shouldn't gamble, just don't gamble if it ONLY leads to you being upset and having the feeling of being cheated.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager


Why is it that the average player that has questions gets referred to as being upset, being cheated or having bad luck? Is this just a way of discrediting an honest inquiry?
Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk, but do care about results and noticed changes. I said some changes are drastic and some aren't but I have noticed them.
If you say your casino hasn't changed in the payouts and feature hits then fine, I accept your word for it.
But don't turn this around as me a simple player whinning and sobbing about bad luck, or being cheated or anything like that, this is far from the intent of this thread. If I think a casino is to tight or cheating, I simply don't spend my time and money there anymore.

Simmo, thanks for the chuckle! :lolup:
Vinylweatherman, :thumbsup:
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Hi Mavin

Can you show that a game actually had its line pays reduced e.g. 3 aces used to pay 50 coins but now they pay 30 or something like that? I would be surprised if an operator could get away with that, given how sharp most slot players are when it comes to differences. I would think every slot has its dedicated fans who would jump up and down if the actual paytable was altered.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that the factors you dont want to hear about are the causes of your experiences, along with some plain old dumb luck. If you want a slot that pays lots of bonus rounds and gives you lots of play time, then you need to accept that those bonus rounds will pay very little and your chances of winning anything large would be very low. The excitement of getting 3 vampires on scary rich or 5 scatters on rain dance or 5 scatters on thunderstruck that make these slots popular, but the price you pay for such big pays is that the rest of the time you can expect to get more or less screwed. Your example of the T-Rex bonus rounds is nothing unusual at all and has happened quite often to me personally...I once had 21 free spins (retriggered) and ended up with less than 10x bet :eek: ....but have hit 6 free spins and won 1000x bet so its just being in the right place at the right time.

I know you are frustrated, and we all get that way from time to time, but slots are designed for you to lose....its just that some are designed to pay large wins less often, and some are designed to pay smaller wins more often. In other words, variance is the key to making your bankroll last. If you want lots of play time, you need to be careful about which slots you choose i.e. I would stay away from T-Rex as it will suck you dry more often than not.

Hope your luck changes for the better~!
 

NicolasJohnson

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Location
A Place
no disrespect Marvin, just giving friendly advice and you are right to want good %s

Why is it that the average player that has questions gets referred to as being upset, being cheated or having bad luck? Is this just a way of discrediting an honest inquiry?
Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk, but do care about results and noticed changes. I said some changes are drastic and some aren't but I have noticed them.
If you say your casino hasn't changed in the payouts and feature hits then fine, I accept your word for it.
But don't turn this around as me a simple player whinning and sobbing about bad luck, or being cheated or anything like that, this is far from the intent of this thread. If I think a casino is to tight or cheating, I simply don't spend my time and money there anymore.

Simmo, thanks for the chuckle!
Vinylweatherman,

You said you were being cheated. I would be upset if that was true. I'm not trying to disregard your inquiry... I wouldn't post in this thread if that was the case.

You have all the right to want to get the maximum bang for your buck! I agree you should. :thumbsup:

And if you notice a trend in casinos lowering payout %, then by all means share it (given a good sample set). But one thing is a trend, another to say all casinos (including VRC) have lowered their payout %.

I can't speak for any other casinos, but I can speak for VRC, and we can't/haven't/wouldn't lower payout %. Even if we could it would be bad for business. We would have unhappy customers. And an unhappy customer is one that doesn't return. We know this. :notworthy

I understand you, I really do, I work hard for my money and when I spend it I want good service; it is normal for freedom loving people to want that.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Operators of RTG casinos can easily change these settings, and all the players will see is a change in the "tightness" of the slot over extended periods of play.

Who told you that VWM? I asked about this and was told that an operator had to apply for, and justify, a change and then wait for up to 6 months for it to be implemented and only RTG could adjust it.

I was also told there are three settings - 93%, 95% and 97%.

I'd be interested to know where you got your information.
 

vegetagirl2008

Mafia Wars Level 472
Joined
May 10, 2008
Location
Brooklyn, New York, United States
I think that its not the software it just the draw of the luck, sometimes I don't win a whole lot and sometimes I don't win at all. Others are high rollers some are low rollers. But there is a common denominator. We win and we lose. I don't win all the time so I do not post winning screenshots. But there are members who constantly adding screenshots because they are genuinely lucky. I am not one of those people. My luck is always finding a job. That's where my luck lies. Not playing online casino or any casino for that matter.

Maybe you have to stick to one casino that you enjoy and don't always play all the time. Spread it out and if you don't have any luck there don't play anymore. See you have a special gift and that's painting and that's where your luck lies. Maybe we are not cut out for gambling. Maybe there are better things we are lucky at.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Mavin

Can you show that a game actually had its line pays reduced e.g. 3 aces used to pay 50 coins but now they pay 30 or something like that? I would be surprised if an operator could get away with that, given how sharp most slot players are when it comes to differences. I would think every slot has its dedicated fans who would jump up and down if the actual paytable was altered.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that the factors you dont want to hear about are the causes of your experiences, along with some plain old dumb luck. If you want a slot that pays lots of bonus rounds and gives you lots of play time, then you need to accept that those bonus rounds will pay very little and your chances of winning anything large would be very low. The excitement of getting 3 vampires on scary rich or 5 scatters on rain dance or 5 scatters on thunderstruck that make these slots popular, but the price you pay for such big pays is that the rest of the time you can expect to get more or less screwed. Your example of the T-Rex bonus rounds is nothing unusual at all and has happened quite often to me personally...I once had 21 free spins (retriggered) and ended up with less than 10x bet :eek: ....but have hit 6 free spins and won 1000x bet so its just being in the right place at the right time.

I know you are frustrated, and we all get that way from time to time, but slots are designed for you to lose....its just that some are designed to pay large wins less often, and some are designed to pay smaller wins more often. In other words, variance is the key to making your bankroll last. If you want lots of play time, you need to be careful about which slots you choose i.e. I would stay away from T-Rex as it will suck you dry more often than not.

Hope your luck changes for the better~!


This was done by Top Game after "responding to player feedback" about the games being too "flat". Sadly, although appropriate, it has set a precedent for EXISTING games to be "messed around with". Now there will be a grounded SUSPICION that perceived changes in other operators' games are a result of the game being "messed with", rather than pure chance.

Without access to source code, or operator "back end" settings, there is no way for operators to PROVE they don't cheat, and no way for players to prove they DO.

We DO have independent third party verification, but this depends upon how well the players trust this third party, and whether they believe the right things are being verified. Verifying RNG output alone is NOT the same as verifying that a game is completely random.
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
This was done by Top Game after "responding to player feedback" about the games being too "flat". Sadly, although appropriate, it has set a precedent for EXISTING games to be "messed around with". Now there will be a grounded SUSPICION that perceived changes in other operators' games are a result of the game being "messed with", rather than pure chance.

Without access to source code, or operator "back end" settings, there is no way for operators to PROVE they don't cheat, and no way for players to prove they DO.

We DO have independent third party verification, but this depends upon how well the players trust this third party, and whether they believe the right things are being verified. Verifying RNG output alone is NOT the same as verifying that a game is completely random.


Yes and since you mention Top Game, this is where I have first noticed this change. On page 1642 of "Winner Screenshots", you will see my screenshot of Fandango where I was playing 75 cents per spin and hit the high paying symbol of the pistols with the wilds and was paid $500 for that win. A couple months later I was playing the Pharoah game at 75 cents per spin, hit the pharoahs with the wilds and the win was $100. The Pharoah and Pistol are equivalent, so why the drastic difference? I did not get a screenshot of the pharoah win. But surely there must be others that play Top Game and can verify this difference.
Although I can't prove or disprove what my thoughts are here of payouts being decreased, but this one instance that I do have a screenshot of what was and maybe someone will have a screenshot of what is.
 

arash

Newbie member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Location
Europe
Why is it that the average player that has questions gets referred to as being upset, being cheated or having bad luck? Is this just a way of discrediting an honest inquiry?
Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk, but do care about results and noticed changes. I said some changes are drastic and some aren't but I have noticed them.
If you say your casino hasn't changed in the payouts and feature hits then fine, I accept your word for it.
But don't turn this around as me a simple player whinning and sobbing about bad luck, or being cheated or anything like that, this is far from the intent of this thread. If I think a casino is to tight or cheating, I simply don't spend my time and money there anymore.

Simmo, thanks for the chuckle! :lolup:
Vinylweatherman, :thumbsup:

Playing at online casino's and winnig big amounts is just like hitting the jackpot.

If everyone win high amounts, the online casino's simply will not exist anymore. That is how the software is been programmed. Just like the jackpot: Big winnigs come when there is enough money to be paid!

Thats all!
 

Mavin1

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Location
Arizona
Playing at online casino's and winnig big amounts is just like hitting the jackpot.

If everyone win high amounts, the online casino's simply will not exist anymore. That is how the software is been programmed. Just like the jackpot: Big winnigs come when there is enough money to be paid!

Thats all!

Again, might I ask what does this have to do with my inquiry? Can some people that aren't overdosed on Flouride please chime in?

Actually just forget it!
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you
Not cheating but changing the payouts to become slimmer...as VWM said, I believe he has hit the nail on the head since they have been lowering them...IMO and experience..
The other trend is for more and more winlines, so the maximum payouts for line wins are much lower as a proportion of TOTAL bet. This also makes a slot appear to "suck" during play.
I too have been moving more towards MG casinos..due to the BETTER payouts on the spicier ones
I think this is down to more being allocated to "spicier" bonus rounds
I choose this compared to others lately. My last 6 LARGE withdrawals have been from MG casinos whereas RTG's have only sucked my bankroll dry each and every time...that is why I am trying to stay away(except for a pop in once in a while) until they come to their senses and bring back the fun to them....

.
 
Top