Casino owners/Reps and Affiliates and All Interested Players

[Mavin1]

I think casino owners, reps and affiliates should be lobbying to bring true fair play back to online gaming. Now I don't want to hear the bull about Variances, RNG's or any technical baloney to explain away why the majority of players are dissapointed so many times.
I have noticed a new slight to even drastic trend of decreased prizes on line wins, decreased to never getting bonus rounds and if you do get bonus rounds decreased chances that the round will outshine the regular play.
A few months back I had posted a winning screenshot of $500 playing at 75 cents a spin and hit wilds and pistols on Fandango, a couple months later playing the Pharoah game at the same casino I hit wilds and the Pharoahs for 5 of a kind on a payline, playing 75 cents and was paid $100. The pharoah is equivalent to pistols.
So okay, maybe the $500 was excessive, but to cut it down to $100 is a bit drastic. Now this is just one example.
I believe that wins at any and all casinos has been decreased but maybe not as noticeable as some are.
It is also not fair play when for instance playing RTG's, spending a good amount of money and time and not getting any bonus rounds what so ever, time and time again! A couple times on my last play at an RTG casino I hit the T-Rex bonus rounds 4 times, every time the 3 eggs only gave 2 spins per egg, so each time I only won 6 free spins. Then to add insult to injury not once did the dino's come toghether to make a decent win. One round was a grand total win of $1.65 or so and none were higher than $6.00. On the new x-mas themed games, santa has never won during my many sessions and the other one which I played at least 6 times for extended periods never once gave a bonus round.
The thing that makes these games at any and all of the casino's is the bonus rounds, this is the fun and exciting part of playing, but if they are going to continually being watered down and feel more like a lottery than a slot, then the whole reason why you want us to play is only down to the money and not to give your customers a true and fun experience.
Sure there will always be the die hard gamer out there that will continue to play no matter what, but there is also I'm sure a good portion of small time revenue that will be lost because of these on going changes. These things will effect the pocketbooks of the Owners, Reps and Affiliates one day just as it is affecting players pocketbooks now.

So please, no tech excuses.

 

[Wildfire7]

So no tech baloney, no expaining it away by high variance or RNGS. Well that leaves one remaining factor you might want to consider, its called luck!

Yes believe it or not all players need an element of this during their play, perhaps you have just had a bad run and are seeking explanations for problems that are not really there.

Sorry I can't be more helpful or give you the answers you perhaps want to hear, but as you seem to have ruled out the obvious explanations then you are not left with an awful lot......apart from luck.

Other than that perhaps look at the way you play, your bet size in proportion to your bankroll, the type of games you play, how long your sessions last.

Mike

 

[Mavin1]

So no tech baloney, no expaining it away by high variance or RNGS. Well that leaves one remaining factor you might want to consider, its called luck!

Yes believe it or not all players need an element of this during their play, perhaps you have just had a bad run and are seeking explanations for problems that are not really there.

Sorry I can't be more helpful or give you the answers you perhaps want to hear, but as you seem to have ruled out the obvious explanations then you are not left with an awful lot......apart from luck.

Other than that perhaps look at the way you play, your bet size in proportion to your bankroll, the type of games you play, how long your sessions last.

Mike

Well let's rule out the "luck" explaination too. You have not addressed my posted observation, just trying to turn it around to my bad luck or my good luck. This is not what this post is about.

 

[Simmo!]

I have been waiting 3 years for 5 scatters on Thunderstruck and I've hit two of them in the last week and I'm up overall on my past 3 months play for the first time in God knows how long. I'd like to know why the casinos are suddenly being so generous. It's perplexing. It might have something to do with the fact that I've got a new strategy that involves hitting the cashout button, but let's rule that out.

Ok...Mavin...sorry that was a bit tongue in cheek My point being that i've done well the last few months and you can't rule out things like luck, variance and other factors because, like it or not, they play an important part. It's a bit like asking why Obama got elected but you rule out voting as an answer

Hey look, if your point is that the casino software providers have downgraded all their paytables so their clients can make more money, then maybe you are right, who knows - most of them aren't transparent in that regard and IMO they should be. But I think its unlikely and even if they did, i bet they would still be better than B&M slot payouts.

 

[dominique]

and even if they did, i bet they would still be better than B&M slot payouts.

You can say that again!

Payouts in Vegas positively SUCK! Yes, it's still good entertainment, but it's getting to where it's barely gambling anymore, it's just paying to see the game play....

 

[Mavin1]

My reason for ruling out the routine responses for Variances, RNG's, Luck and what have you is because they don't actually come out and say yes, before you would win $1 with 4 symbols alike on a winning payline but now the same scenario will only win you 45 cents.
Or before you could have hundreds hitting free spins/bonus rounds where now we have alotted them to only 45 to hitting these features.
So in other words, what I would win at 40 cents now costs me $1.25 to get.
Just an example of what I am meaning and why the canned response does not answer my post.


As for voting, I won't even go there.

 

[Wildfire7]

before you would win $1 with 4 symbols alike on a winning payline but now the same scenario will only win you 45 cents.
Or before you could have hundreds hitting free spins/bonus rounds where now we have alotted them to only 45 to hitting these features.
So in other words, what I would win at 40 cents now costs me $1.25 to get.
Just an example of what I am meaning and why the canned response does not answer my post.


As for voting, I won't even go there.

Hi Mavin

Another thing to consider is choice. There are more casinos and more games available than ever. For us consumers this can only be a good thing.
As for paytables changing I can't say I have noticed.

What you would get for 5 scatters at Thunderstruck 5 years ago, you would get exactly the same today. The bonus rounds and free spins are harder to quantify as they vary so greatly on their payouts.

Simmo, in your voting anology I was thinking it was a good job you didn't use Bushs 2000 US presidential elections as the analogy!

 

[Simmo!]

As for voting, I won't even go there.

Thought you'd like that one

Simmo, in your voting anology I was thinking it was a good job you didn't use Bushs 2000 US presidential elections as the analogy!

LOL yeah...shooting myself in the foot I try to avoid!

but it's getting to where it's barely gambling anymore, it's just paying to see the game play....

 

[NicolasJohnson]

hmmm, you seem to feel ALL casinos cheat so my advice is...

First I would like to say, I can't answer your question, as you are asking 'why' we did something you have no evidence we did (and especially in our case, you can't have evidence, since we didn't do anything. I should know, I can see the payouts).

If you don't want to hear about variance or luck, and are 100% convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you (which is what you implied in your post), then I suggest you stop playing online casinos. If you TRULY believe that, then there can be no fun in playing, and fun should be the ultimate goal of every casino gambler. If it is not fun, I suggest you don't gamble.

We want to have customers, but only ones that enjoy a healthy hobby. If you want to hear our honest answer, we have the exact payout % we did when we started (and is pretty standard). That is part of variance, even we as operators feel it. The only way you can get a fair result is through randomness, and with that comes variance/luck.

P.S. I'm not saying you shouldn't gamble, just don't gamble if it ONLY leads to you being upset and having the feeling of being cheated.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

 

[vinylweatherman]

I play mostly MGS, and I HAVE noticed a trend towards lower overall prizes for line wins in the base game. I think this is down to more being allocated to "spicier" bonus rounds. Thunderstruck pays 10,000 for 5 wilds, but recent video slots have seen lower top payouts, even a mere 500 for one. This is because more is paid out in the bonus rounds, so not only are the paytables lower, the slot will suck your money very quickly if the bonus round fails to come along.

The other trend is for more and more winlines, so the maximum payouts for line wins are much lower as a proportion of TOTAL bet. This also makes a slot appear to "suck" during play. Slots such as Cashapillar, with 100 lines, APPEAR to be low variance, but because of clever reel design are actually HIGH variance. Cashapillar only really pays well if you get stacked wilds in view, and in the right place. Many slots also seem to no longer offer small prizes for 2 of a kind, such as the prizes on Thunderstruck for 2 of "9", "hammer", and "shaft".

RTG, as we know, can operate slots at any RTP between 97.5% and 91%. Operators of RTG casinos can easily change these settings, and all the players will see is a change in the "tightness" of the slot over extended periods of play.

 

[Mavin1]

First I would like to say, I can't answer your question, as you are asking 'why' we did something you have no evidence we did (and especially in our case, you can't have evidence, since we didn't do anything. I should know, I can see the payouts).

If you don't want to hear about variance or luck, and are 100% convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you (which is what you implied in your post), then I suggest you stop playing online casinos. If you TRULY believe that, then there can be no fun in playing, and fun should be the ultimate goal of every casino gambler. If it is not fun, I suggest you don't gamble.

We want to have customers, but only ones that enjoy a healthy hobby. If you want to hear our honest answer, we have the exact payout % we did when we started (and is pretty standard). That is part of variance, even we as operators feel it. The only way you can get a fair result is through randomness, and with that comes variance/luck.

P.S. I'm not saying you shouldn't gamble, just don't gamble if it ONLY leads to you being upset and having the feeling of being cheated.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

Why is it that the average player that has questions gets referred to as being upset, being cheated or having bad luck? Is this just a way of discrediting an honest inquiry?
Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk, but do care about results and noticed changes. I said some changes are drastic and some aren't but I have noticed them.
If you say your casino hasn't changed in the payouts and feature hits then fine, I accept your word for it.
But don't turn this around as me a simple player whinning and sobbing about bad luck, or being cheated or anything like that, this is far from the intent of this thread. If I think a casino is to tight or cheating, I simply don't spend my time and money there anymore.

Simmo, thanks for the chuckle!
Vinylweatherman,

 

[Nifty29]

Hi Mavin

Can you show that a game actually had its line pays reduced e.g. 3 aces used to pay 50 coins but now they pay 30 or something like that? I would be surprised if an operator could get away with that, given how sharp most slot players are when it comes to differences. I would think every slot has its dedicated fans who would jump up and down if the actual paytable was altered.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that the factors you dont want to hear about are the causes of your experiences, along with some plain old dumb luck. If you want a slot that pays lots of bonus rounds and gives you lots of play time, then you need to accept that those bonus rounds will pay very little and your chances of winning anything large would be very low. The excitement of getting 3 vampires on scary rich or 5 scatters on rain dance or 5 scatters on thunderstruck that make these slots popular, but the price you pay for such big pays is that the rest of the time you can expect to get more or less screwed. Your example of the T-Rex bonus rounds is nothing unusual at all and has happened quite often to me personally...I once had 21 free spins (retriggered) and ended up with less than 10x bet ....but have hit 6 free spins and won 1000x bet so its just being in the right place at the right time.

I know you are frustrated, and we all get that way from time to time, but slots are designed for you to lose....its just that some are designed to pay large wins less often, and some are designed to pay smaller wins more often. In other words, variance is the key to making your bankroll last. If you want lots of play time, you need to be careful about which slots you choose i.e. I would stay away from T-Rex as it will suck you dry more often than not.

Hope your luck changes for the better~!

 

[NicolasJohnson]

no disrespect Marvin, just giving friendly advice and you are right to want good %s

Why is it that the average player that has questions gets referred to as being upset, being cheated or having bad luck? Is this just a way of discrediting an honest inquiry?
Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk, but do care about results and noticed changes. I said some changes are drastic and some aren't but I have noticed them.
If you say your casino hasn't changed in the payouts and feature hits then fine, I accept your word for it.
But don't turn this around as me a simple player whinning and sobbing about bad luck, or being cheated or anything like that, this is far from the intent of this thread. If I think a casino is to tight or cheating, I simply don't spend my time and money there anymore.

Simmo, thanks for the chuckle!
Vinylweatherman,

You said you were being cheated. I would be upset if that was true. I'm not trying to disregard your inquiry... I wouldn't post in this thread if that was the case.

You have all the right to want to get the maximum bang for your buck! I agree you should.

And if you notice a trend in casinos lowering payout %, then by all means share it (given a good sample set). But one thing is a trend, another to say all casinos (including VRC) have lowered their payout %.

I can't speak for any other casinos, but I can speak for VRC, and we can't/haven't/wouldn't lower payout %. Even if we could it would be bad for business. We would have unhappy customers. And an unhappy customer is one that doesn't return. We know this. :notworthy

I understand you, I really do, I work hard for my money and when I spend it I want good service; it is normal for freedom loving people to want that.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

 

[Simmo!]

Operators of RTG casinos can easily change these settings, and all the players will see is a change in the "tightness" of the slot over extended periods of play.

Who told you that VWM? I asked about this and was told that an operator had to apply for, and justify, a change and then wait for up to 6 months for it to be implemented and only RTG could adjust it.

I was also told there are three settings - 93%, 95% and 97%.

I'd be interested to know where you got your information.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

I think that its not the software it just the draw of the luck, sometimes I don't win a whole lot and sometimes I don't win at all. Others are high rollers some are low rollers. But there is a common denominator. We win and we lose. I don't win all the time so I do not post winning screenshots. But there are members who constantly adding screenshots because they are genuinely lucky. I am not one of those people. My luck is always finding a job. That's where my luck lies. Not playing online casino or any casino for that matter.

Maybe you have to stick to one casino that you enjoy and don't always play all the time. Spread it out and if you don't have any luck there don't play anymore. See you have a special gift and that's painting and that's where your luck lies. Maybe we are not cut out for gambling. Maybe there are better things we are lucky at.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi Mavin

Can you show that a game actually had its line pays reduced e.g. 3 aces used to pay 50 coins but now they pay 30 or something like that? I would be surprised if an operator could get away with that, given how sharp most slot players are when it comes to differences. I would think every slot has its dedicated fans who would jump up and down if the actual paytable was altered.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that the factors you dont want to hear about are the causes of your experiences, along with some plain old dumb luck. If you want a slot that pays lots of bonus rounds and gives you lots of play time, then you need to accept that those bonus rounds will pay very little and your chances of winning anything large would be very low. The excitement of getting 3 vampires on scary rich or 5 scatters on rain dance or 5 scatters on thunderstruck that make these slots popular, but the price you pay for such big pays is that the rest of the time you can expect to get more or less screwed. Your example of the T-Rex bonus rounds is nothing unusual at all and has happened quite often to me personally...I once had 21 free spins (retriggered) and ended up with less than 10x bet ....but have hit 6 free spins and won 1000x bet so its just being in the right place at the right time.

I know you are frustrated, and we all get that way from time to time, but slots are designed for you to lose....its just that some are designed to pay large wins less often, and some are designed to pay smaller wins more often. In other words, variance is the key to making your bankroll last. If you want lots of play time, you need to be careful about which slots you choose i.e. I would stay away from T-Rex as it will suck you dry more often than not.

Hope your luck changes for the better~!

This was done by Top Game after "responding to player feedback" about the games being too "flat". Sadly, although appropriate, it has set a precedent for EXISTING games to be "messed around with". Now there will be a grounded SUSPICION that perceived changes in other operators' games are a result of the game being "messed with", rather than pure chance.

Without access to source code, or operator "back end" settings, there is no way for operators to PROVE they don't cheat, and no way for players to prove they DO.

We DO have independent third party verification, but this depends upon how well the players trust this third party, and whether they believe the right things are being verified. Verifying RNG output alone is NOT the same as verifying that a game is completely random.

 

[Mavin1]

This was done by Top Game after "responding to player feedback" about the games being too "flat". Sadly, although appropriate, it has set a precedent for EXISTING games to be "messed around with". Now there will be a grounded SUSPICION that perceived changes in other operators' games are a result of the game being "messed with", rather than pure chance.

Without access to source code, or operator "back end" settings, there is no way for operators to PROVE they don't cheat, and no way for players to prove they DO.

We DO have independent third party verification, but this depends upon how well the players trust this third party, and whether they believe the right things are being verified. Verifying RNG output alone is NOT the same as verifying that a game is completely random.

Yes and since you mention Top Game, this is where I have first noticed this change. On page 1642 of "Winner Screenshots", you will see my screenshot of Fandango where I was playing 75 cents per spin and hit the high paying symbol of the pistols with the wilds and was paid $500 for that win. A couple months later I was playing the Pharoah game at 75 cents per spin, hit the pharoahs with the wilds and the win was $100. The Pharoah and Pistol are equivalent, so why the drastic difference? I did not get a screenshot of the pharoah win. But surely there must be others that play Top Game and can verify this difference.
Although I can't prove or disprove what my thoughts are here of payouts being decreased, but this one instance that I do have a screenshot of what was and maybe someone will have a screenshot of what is.

 

[arash]

Why is it that the average player that has questions gets referred to as being upset, being cheated or having bad luck? Is this just a way of discrediting an honest inquiry?
Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk, but do care about results and noticed changes. I said some changes are drastic and some aren't but I have noticed them.
If you say your casino hasn't changed in the payouts and feature hits then fine, I accept your word for it.
But don't turn this around as me a simple player whinning and sobbing about bad luck, or being cheated or anything like that, this is far from the intent of this thread. If I think a casino is to tight or cheating, I simply don't spend my time and money there anymore.

Simmo, thanks for the chuckle!
Vinylweatherman,

Playing at online casino's and winnig big amounts is just like hitting the jackpot.

If everyone win high amounts, the online casino's simply will not exist anymore. That is how the software is been programmed. Just like the jackpot: Big winnigs come when there is enough money to be paid!

Thats all!

 

[Mavin1]

Playing at online casino's and winnig big amounts is just like hitting the jackpot.

If everyone win high amounts, the online casino's simply will not exist anymore. That is how the software is been programmed. Just like the jackpot: Big winnigs come when there is enough money to be paid!

Thats all!

Again, might I ask what does this have to do with my inquiry? Can some people that aren't overdosed on Flouride please chime in?

Actually just forget it!

 

[silcnlayc]

convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you

Not cheating but changing the payouts to become slimmer...as VWM said, I believe he has hit the nail on the head since they have been lowering them...IMO and experience..

The other trend is for more and more winlines, so the maximum payouts for line wins are much lower as a proportion of TOTAL bet. This also makes a slot appear to "suck" during play.

I too have been moving more towards MG casinos..due to the BETTER payouts on the spicier ones

I think this is down to more being allocated to "spicier" bonus rounds

I choose this compared to others lately. My last 6 LARGE withdrawals have been from MG casinos whereas RTG's have only sucked my bankroll dry each and every time...that is why I am trying to stay away(except for a pop in once in a while) until they come to their senses and bring back the fun to them....

.

 

[Nifty29]

Again, might I ask what does this have to do with my inquiry? Can some people that aren't overdosed on Flouride please chime in?

Actually just forget it!

Mavin, there is no need for that comment.

Dont abuse people who are simply offering a non-offensive opinion on the topic at hand - it ain't cool.

Time to chill out a bit mate.

 

[AussieDave]

Marvin IMO you have the right to question what's up.

But the two two points you've addressed are like chalk and cheese, although valid points, they need to be kept separate because they are two separate issues.

If your playing at a casino where they have dramatically decreased the pay-out table on a give game, my question to you is why are you still playing at this casino?

In regards to your lack of winning success, your playing slots! These are streaky and have no rhyme or reason - no strategy to increase your success.

However you've stated they've been fiddling with pay-tables on their slots. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Fandango a bonus slot from TopGame software They were held to count over missing slot symbols and worse a missing $191K jackpot that still hasn't been accounted for.

My personal opinion is to cut your losses and un-install whatever casino this is.

If you want to gamble at online slots do it at a reputable venue - one that doesn't slash their game pay-out tables.

Me, being and average player doesn't care for the tech talk

Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast. The only way to avoid being given tech talk is to play tables games at a B&M casino. As soon as you play anything that uses a microprocessor or an RNG your going to get exactly what you don't like, tech speak.



Cheers

Dave

 

[KasinoKing]

Yes and since you mention Top Game, this is where I have first noticed this change. On page 1642 of "Winner Screenshots", you will see my screenshot of Fandango where I was playing 75 cents per spin and hit the high paying symbol of the pistols with the wilds and was paid $500 for that win. A couple months later I was playing the Pharoah game at 75 cents per spin, hit the pharoahs with the wilds and the win was $100. The Pharoah and Pistol are equivalent, so why the drastic difference? I did not get a screenshot of the pharoah win. But surely there must be others that play Top Game and can verify this difference.
Although I can't prove or disprove what my thoughts are here of payouts being decreased, but this one instance that I do have a screenshot of what was and maybe someone will have a screenshot of what is.

I started promoting some Top Game casinos a few months ago, and I can tell you one thing - the players who's stats I get to see have won hell of a lot more from the casinos than the casinos have won from the players!
I don't know which games they were playing though...

While we're on the subject, which TG slots would you say are the best, and why?

KK

 

[silcnlayc]

KK:I started promoting some Top Game casinos a few months ago, and I can tell you one thing - the players who's stats I get to see have won hell of a lot more from the casinos than the casinos have won from the players!
I don't know which games they were playing though...

While we're on the subject, which TG slots would you say are the best, and why?

KK
__________________

KK, do you promote Gold Vegas Casino? I have been playing there for a while and have had a few withdrawals without a hitch after the first one. They seem extremley nice and payouts have been within 24 hours or less, and have unique games. I agree that the game play and wins have been pretty good here ever since I joined (Topgame).

I also would like to say that Mandarin Casino also has been very good in play time for what is deposited. I played for 4 hours on one deposit last night, had a blast and got it up to a nice piece of change( failed to withdraw due to my enjoyment)..they also have some unique slots and they are playing a lot faster lately. Any thoughts on this one?

All in all, all the regular casinos I have played at for YEARS have become put on the back burner because they have become a drag on my fun money...I seem to be finding some really good off the wall casinos that have great CS, payout times and play times. I have narrowed down my slot play to these casinos and have not been disapointed in the last few months with them.

Hopefully, these two casinos make an effort to get on the meisters list.

.

 

[helwhipped]

There's nothing fun about finally getting to deposit somewhere and have it being a dud, quick and insulting. I can't help but feel I've been sabotaged and this is when I'll go to chat and send an e-mail. I may appear to some as a whiner, but I'll do it with good reason and usually they will try to make it right. As for the changes I've noticed them too, at TopGaming. Even so I love their games....they seem to let you "hang on" and "come up" with little balances. It's such a rush thinking you still might win. I can get it up, but once I do it's hard to keep it up, cause you start playing different. That's all. Good night

 

[Scooter7]

If you don't want to hear about variance or luck, and are 100% convinced EVERY online casino is cheating you (which is what you implied in your post), then I suggest you stop playing online casinos. If you TRULY believe that, then there can be no fun in playing, and fun should be the ultimate goal of every casino gambler. If it is not fun, I suggest you don't gamble.

We want to have customers, but only ones that enjoy a healthy hobby. If you want to hear our honest answer, we have the exact payout % we did when we started (and is pretty standard).

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager

This-perfect attitude from a casino staff member. :notworthy:clap:

 

[Mavin1]

Marvin IMO you have the right to question what's up.

But the two two points you've addressed are like chalk and cheese, although valid points, they need to be kept separate because they are two separate issues.

If your playing at a casino where they have dramatically decreased the pay-out table on a give game, my question to you is why are you still playing at this casino?

In regards to your lack of winning success, your playing slots! These are streaky and have no rhyme or reason - no strategy to increase your success.

However you've stated they've been fiddling with pay-tables on their slots. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Fandango a bonus slot from TopGame software They were held to count over missing slot symbols and worse a missing $191K jackpot that still hasn't been accounted for.

My personal opinion is to cut your losses and un-install whatever casino this is.

If you want to gamble at online slots do it at a reputable venue - one that doesn't slash their game pay-out tables.



Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast. The only way to avoid being given tech talk is to play tables games at a B&M casino. As soon as you play anything that uses a microprocessor or an RNG your going to get exactly what you don't like, tech speak.



Cheers

Dave

To answer your question as to why I still play at Top Game casinos, well because they are one of the few that I do have withdrawals from and frequently. I have always liked them from the start even through the situation of the missing wilds episode. I still like them best and probably always will.


As to your comment of my lack of success, again this is not the issue and I am not nor was not looking for winning strategy.


Yes Fandango is a Top Game slot and is still my favorite even with the decrease in win amounts.


I have cut my losses by playing at MCG's and RTG's on very rare occasions, these are the casino's that are losses in my opinion.

My question simply was is all casino's cutting back the amount a win is on a single pay line.
Have casino's cut back on the amount of times a feature/free spins pop up.
These are yes or no questions.

I do not need any lectures on "if you feel you're being cheated", or "your bad luck", or "if we all won jackpots, the casino's would go broke", or "cut your losses".
Obviously some of you don't understand my point and some of you do.

As for my angered comment, well blame it on pms, but it is very frustrating when a thread gets turned around to something other than what it is. I have read many threads where posters are trying to get to the same results as I am and see how they get shot down with all of these excuses of, you're whinning because you are having a bad run/luck and so on, thus the posters have been frustrated at every turn by those that want the door closed on these questions.
The shoot down I despise the most is "Then why are you gambling, you should find another hobby if you feel you're being cheated". This is just attitude and a ploy of discrediting.

And no, I'm not cool and am not looking to be thought of as such.

 

[Simmo!]

As for my angered comment, well blame it on pms.

Nah...let's rule that out

 

[felicie]

Ok Mavin1 thought I was following you and now so many later, I'm totally confused but I do know this. The whole 'fun' in slots for me can only occur when I feel the randomness of it all. because that means hope, a chance, a surprise and thats fun. Anymore the random thing is missing from most slots as the reels jerk around like theres little hands pulling them a little further this way and oops back this way and sooner or later you have to wonder what the hells going on back there. The problem is I think that it's really only noticeable when it is in our favor so we hate to complain. hello! And as mad as I've gotten towards some of Rivals 'built in harassment" of their own good depositing players, I've got to say, they are the only slots imo right now that have anything close to a random feeling. maybe they just get lubed more often and run smoother I don't know. but that makes it fun to me and therefore hard to stay away from even when I should sometimes. (Vegas Regal and a couple others excluded Nicholas and thats because they/you do treat your customers different) just in case anyone around here was thinking of calling me a suck-up.:baby:

When I get down to last 14 cents and suddenly get the bonus round several times a week or 4 times in an hour of play, somethings not random. its too regular to be random. and not random is our biggest fear isn't it? I think it is mine, since: moma didn't raise no fool.

Also playing for hours last nite at microgaming, kept thinking what? l x multiplyer? wtf? reason I went to that slot was I remembered multiplyer was NOT lx and to get a 90 cent win on 15 free spins. never happened no matter what the bet. The new slots although enjoyable with sound affects, come to a big crashing fart in the road when you get win after win left side to right side but realize you have also lost your 50 deposit getting all those great sounding wins for 12 cents, 18 woo hoo maybe 40 cents. And I always had my old reliables to rescue my balance usually. not anymore. they laugh in your face. and my big wins were rtg and micro this past year and all in 3 months time. It's like the real time achilles and all those. now I couldn't hit free spins no matter what option I choose which leads me to realize the more options to stop or use spacebar etc. the less I'm going to win. You just know what ya know. no proof in the puddin.

 

[silcnlayc]

felicie:The whole 'fun' in slots for me can only occur when I feel the randomness of it all. because that means hope, a chance, a surprise and thats fun.

Very well put!

When I get down to last 14 cents and suddenly get the bonus round several times a week or 4 times in an hour of play, somethings not random. its too regular to be random. and not random is our biggest fear isn't it? I think it is mine, since: moma didn't raise no fool.

But we are supposed to be fools and believe nothing has changed!

You just know what ya know. no proof in the puddin.

Hard to "prove" anything unless you are an insider no matter what others try to shove down your throat on "luck, variance etc"..

And I always had my old reliables to rescue my balance usually. not anymore. they laugh in your face.

That is called "variance" didn't you know that?? No changes, just "variance" (tongue in cheek)

You put this very well...in words many can understand and relate to.

.

 

[Mavin1]

Okay, Simmo, you are just to much, gotta love ya!

Felicie, you are not confused, you have gotten the point of what I am saying and you have echoed my feelings/observations pretty much right on!

Same with Silcnlayc, she has been saying this for a very long time, but people aren't hearing her, just pooh poohing her, making her out like she's whinning. Well she's not, but pooh poohers keep dismissing her.

I believe RNG's, Variance and all that techno garble can be the same today as it was two years ago, BUT, the amount of line payouts and feature/freespins can still be greatly diminished without affecting percentages of public numbers. How is this done, haven't a clue, it's one of those things that is hard to prove unless people kept screenshots of every facet of every game at every casino from then until now.

 

[amatrine]

Well I must have the worst luck in variance because I have not been getting play on my deposits at any RTG for the last couple years! $200 bucks yesterday gone, playing 50 cent spins never winning more that 6 bucks. Most free spins were like $1.58. Thats when I got them. I had 5 all night.

Poker, no wins, hand after hand of useless cards, where I just hit enter because there is not even anything to hold.

I have noticed this too. I have been playing for almost 8 years, so I know what I am talking about. I too will be leaving the rtg's etc. I played at Grand Eagle and played like the good ole days! Lots of play time for my money. Fast cashout time, they just need to post their real processing fees, my only complaint there.

Anyway, gambling used to be fun before it changed. Call me what you want to, but I am no dummy. I used to do better online gaming at the reservation, that is not the case anymore. It is harder to win on here, ( im talking rtg, no experience with microgaming recently) than land based now.

I am not the only one seeing this. You say if it is no fun, don't play. Fine with me. I will put my money where I get enjoyment from it. I have only been able to make a cashout at rtg once in two years, and that is not because I played it back, it is because I never made more than I deposited! In two years! That is bad. I remember when I cashed out one in four times.

 

[Mavin1]

I started promoting some Top Game casinos a few months ago, and I can tell you one thing - the players who's stats I get to see have won hell of a lot more from the casinos than the casinos have won from the players!
I don't know which games they were playing though...

While we're on the subject, which TG slots would you say are the best, and why?

KK

Good for you KK! Top Game even with the changes are still number 1 with me. It is a very fair casino group when one compares the amount of withdrawals from Top Game compared to so many other platforms. I am not talking about wanting to hit big money, but it is nice to get something back from a casino that you routinely invest in. So, although I really liked the higher payouts Top Game had, I at least know that I can win here where anywhere else I am just reluctant anymore.
My favorites are Fandango, because it's a fun slot, has good free spin rounds that can sometimes pop up several times and retrigger many times in a single session.
I also like Diablo 13, for the 13 free spins and it too can retrigger frequently, plus getting the wizards can be very nice as it's prizes are exponetially increased to higher amounts with the more wizards you get.
Same with Reel Crime, not to crazy about the free spins when you only get 3 newspapers, only 5 free spins which can be dissapointing, but the bonus round is quit fun and if you get 5 safes, which I have, the win amount really happily surprised me. Plus the wilds are very frequent and many times multipled on win lines.
I will play the other slots, but these are my main ones I enjoy the most.

So, although this is somewhat off the point of my post, KK, I didn't want to ignore you.

 

[Mavin1]

Well I must have the worst luck in variance because I have not been getting play on my deposits at any RTG for the last couple years! $200 bucks yesterday gone, playing 50 cent spins never winning more that 6 bucks. Most free spins were like $1.58. Thats when I got them. I had 5 all night.

Poker, no wins, hand after hand of useless cards, where I just hit enter because there is not even anything to hold.

I have noticed this too. I have been playing for almost 8 years, so I know what I am talking about. I too will be leaving the rtg's etc. I played at Grand Eagle and played like the good ole days! Lots of play time for my money. Fast cashout time, they just need to post their real processing fees, my only complaint there.

Anyway, gambling used to be fun before it changed. Call me what you want to, but I am no dummy. I used to do better online gaming at the reservation, that is not the case anymore. It is harder to win on here, ( im talking rtg, no experience with microgaming recently) than land based now.

I am not the only one seeing this. You say if it is no fun, don't play. Fine with me. I will put my money where I get enjoyment from it. I have only been able to make a cashout at rtg once in two years, and that is not because I played it back, it is because I never made more than I deposited! In two years! That is bad. I remember when I cashed out one in four times.

Thank you! I am glad to see postings from people that do understand what is being said here.
And you're right, we're not dummies!

My thought is they can call poop pudding but my taste buds still say it's poop!!!

 

[silcnlayc]

amatrine: Well I must have the worst luck in variance because I have not been getting play on my deposits at any RTG for the last couple years! $200 bucks yesterday gone, playing 50 cent spins never winning more that 6 bucks. Most free spins were like $1.58. Thats when I got them. I had 5 all night.

Poker, no wins, hand after hand of useless cards, where I just hit enter because there is not even anything to hold.

I have noticed this too. I have been playing for almost 8 years, so I know what I am talking about. I too will be leaving the rtg's etc. I played at Grand Eagle and played like the good ole days! Lots of play time for my money. Fast cashout time, they just need to post their real processing fees, my only complaint there.

Anyway, gambling used to be fun before it changed. Call me what you want to, but I am no dummy. I used to do better online gaming at the reservation, that is not the case anymore. It is harder to win on here, ( im talking rtg, no experience with microgaming recently) than land based now.

I am not the only one seeing this. You say if it is no fun, don't play. Fine with me. I will put my money where I get enjoyment from it. I have only been able to make a cashout at rtg once in two years, and that is not because I played it back, it is because I never made more than I deposited! In two years! That is bad. I remember when I cashed out one in four times.

Thank you amatrine, it is nice to know I have not been alone in this with so many trying to convince others "nothing has changed" etc etc..it is good to see another "old time player" viocing the same scenerios I came across. Sad part about this whole deal is if the players would have believed what was being done sooner, it might have made an impact on how these casinos treated us...I think it is now too late for us to force them back to the "norm" which is a fairer play for us as they used to be. Too many backed the casinos in their underhanded changes (remember the UIGEA? This felt just like that but no one believed)...and now I feel we have no voice except to move on to better playing fields until the csinos come back to their senses.

Same with Silcnlayc, she has been saying this for a very long time, but people aren't hearing her, just pooh poohing her, making her out like she's whinning. Well she's not, but pooh poohers keep dismissing her.

Thank you Mavin for understanding how long I have been fighting this. I actually stopped posting for a long time when I first brought this up and was made to feel "stupid", when I knew something was changed but was asked to "prove" it...well, I couldn't so I stopped saying anything until they started hitting me in the face with their brassiness and boldness of changes..this is when I came back trying to explain and warn others but again, all I got was deaf ears....UNTIL NOW!
Thank you!

.

 

[Roanan]

What about the Rival casino's that are screwing with the skill based bonus rounds and making them even more difficult then they already are?

Hole In Won has suddenly stopped shooting straight.

In the last month or so, every time I've wound up in the Hole In Won bonus round and have made my putts, they've shot off in a different direction from where I am aiming.

Stunts like this are outright crooked (no pun intended)

 

[Mavin1]

Thank you amatrine, it is nice to know I have not been alone in this with so many trying to convince others "nothing has changed" etc etc..it is good to see another "old time player" viocing the same scenerios I came across. Sad part about this whole deal is if the players would have believed what was being done sooner, it might have made an impact on how these casinos treated us...I think it is now too late for us to force them back to the "norm" which is a fairer play for us as they used to be. Too many backed the casinos in their underhanded changes (remember the UIGEA? This felt just like that but no one believed)...and now I feel we have no voice except to move on to better playing fields until the csinos come back to their senses. Thank you Mavin for understanding how long I have been fighting this. I actually stopped posting for a long time when I first brought this up and was made to feel "stupid", when I knew something was changed but was asked to "prove" it...well, I couldn't so I stopped saying anything until they started hitting me in the face with their brassiness and boldness of changes..this is when I came back trying to explain and warn others but again, all I got was deaf ears....UNTIL NOW!
Thank you!

.

Well I am still fairly new to this forum stuff but I have certainly observed how when these questions are brought up there is always those that jump on the subject immediately and start dashing the threads with, oh you're just having bad luck, if you think casinos are cheating then why don't you quit, you aren't utilizing a proper strategy Blah Blah Blah!
I have followed this trend closely and see if anyone seriously wants answers behind the tech talk you are going to get shot down dead cold and other posters will most likely be apprehensive about posting because they don't want to be ridiculed, dismissed as a whinner, told well maybe you should stop playing then if you're so incompetent and what ever other tactic is being used against those of us that have legitimate questions and concerns.
So some of us just have to stand together and stand strong until we have climbed over or broke down the wall that is standing in our way. Or at the very least let them hear our voices that we are not stupid.
So call me what you want, tell me to quit and find something else to do, I have gotten to the age where I really don't care about those of you that would critisize, dismiss, belittle or whatever other than truly answering a posters question.

In my opinion if tech talk is always going to be thrown up, then this just tells me that my questions will be avoided with the general canned response as anything more is not privy to us who are spending our money at these casinos.

I actually stopped posting for a long time when I first brought this up and was made to feel "stupid", when I knew something was changed but was asked to "prove" it...well, I couldn't so I stopped saying anything until they started hitting me in the face with their brassiness and boldness of changes..this is when I came back trying to explain and warn others but again, all I got was deaf ears....UNTIL NOW!

This is exactly what they want you to do, shut up and don't ask, I say FRIG that! But gee everything is coppasetic as long as we are posting positive happy things all the time. Kind of makes me feel like we are living in Stepford.

 

[Nifty29]

The people who say 'something has changed' or 'the payouts are lower' etc etc may well be right.

Problem is, nobody is EVER going to know for sure if its true. Not me, not you, not anyone except the operators. The only possible 'real' type of 'evidence' might be from affiliates - if they are making more, you are losing more and vice-versa.

So, the only 'evidence' we can base these statements on is our own play and/or win/loss ratios over time.

Personally, my wins and losses are about the same as they were 4 years ago and, in some cases, Im well ahead (with RTG I am way ahead). However, with Rival Ive been taking a beating lately.

Now, there are people (even in this thread) who swear by Rival and think they are great, but my experience has been the opposite this year - so again it all comes down to personal experience.

Nobody on this issue is 'right' or 'wrong' because none of us has the information required to prove it either way, other than our own 'gut feeling' or our own figures (for those that keep them).

Its also important to note that the playing style and strategy that one employs can have a major effect on the bottom line. For instance, if you are someone who deposits say $25 a session and has your balance up to $150+, you should seriously consider cashing out - you have 6 more sessions worth of deposits there which could keep you going quite a while. If you are expecting to cashout $500+ from a small deposit, chances are your sessions are going to end in tears most of the time. How do I know this??....from learning the hard way. I have had many more cashouts and much more gambling time (and more big wins) since I started gambling that way. It isnt for everyone, but it works for me and it does make sense when you think about it. You also should bet according to your bankroll - if you start with $50 and are betting $2 a spin you are asking for trouble.

So if you think the software is worse than before, you need to change software.....if you think that maybe your strategy could be improved, then try a different approach with the same software. I dont see any sense in saying the casino is taking you for a ride, and then continuing to play there....after all, based on your opinion you are certainly going to lose....and nobody wants to do that.

Anyway, its a good thread and a worthwhile discussion provided it doesnt become personal or confrontational.

 

[Mavin1]

The people who say 'something has changed' or 'the payouts are lower' etc etc may well be right.

Problem is, nobody is EVER going to know for sure if its true. Not me, not you, not anyone except the operators. The only possible 'real' type of 'evidence' might be from affiliates - if they are making more, you are losing more and vice-versa.

So, the only 'evidence' we can base these statements on is our own play and/or win/loss ratios over time.

Personally, my wins and losses are about the same as they were 4 years ago and, in some cases, Im well ahead (with RTG I am way ahead). However, with Rival Ive been taking a beating lately.

Now, there are people (even in this thread) who swear by Rival and think they are great, but my experience has been the opposite this year - so again it all comes down to personal experience.

Nobody on this issue is 'right' or 'wrong' because none of us has the information required to prove it either way, other than our own 'gut feeling' or our own figures (for those that keep them).

Its also important to note that the playing style and strategy that one employs can have a major effect on the bottom line. For instance, if you are someone who deposits say $25 a session and has your balance up to $150+, you should seriously consider cashing out - you have 6 more sessions worth of deposits there which could keep you going quite a while. If you are expecting to cashout $500+ from a small deposit, chances are your sessions are going to end in tears most of the time. How do I know this??....from learning the hard way. I have had many more cashouts and much more gambling time (and more big wins) since I started gambling that way. It isnt for everyone, but it works for me and it does make sense when you think about it. You also should bet according to your bankroll - if you start with $50 and are betting $2 a spin you are asking for trouble.

So if you think the software is worse than before, you need to change software.....if you think that maybe your strategy could be improved, then try a different approach with the same software. I dont see any sense in saying the casino is taking you for a ride, and then continuing to play there....after all, based on your opinion you are certainly going to lose....and nobody wants to do that.

Anyway, its a good thread and a worthwhile discussion provided it doesnt become personal or confrontational.

Thanks Nifty, I can certainly appreciate a logical and mature approach to this subject. What you say is correct and I as others do employ this technique. I am a small depositor and never wager more than 75 cents a spin at my highest, the norm for me is 25 to 50 cents. I don't keep pushing the envelope for that big win, I am actually realistic about it. If I am up a bit I do cash out, not looking for the big win. But again this is off the topic.

I am not crying about not winning, not in the least. I am simply asking if you play 40 cents a spin and hit 4 symbols that paid $2.50 several months ago and now it is paying $1.50 for the exact same symbols at the exact same 40 cents, is this change across the board with all casinos?
Have the bonus rounds and free spins been also cut back, to where they may give out 20 a day and now only give 5 over a number of players.

Why is this so hard? It is not about I want to win or I'm going to throw a fit!

I will try not to be confrontational but it is difficult for me, just ask the hubby.

 

[De Beuker]

I've not noticed any changes to the paytables at MG, but I have with Rival.
Sometimes I really wonder how certain Rival games reach their RTP percentage, as nothing seems to pay big.
Rock On for example, when the game was just released, during free spins the green guitars would become active on all the reels, not just 1, 2, and 3.
I'm sure about this because I got them on 3, 4 and 5 once.
(payout sucked because reel 1 and 2 only matched the 'V-fingers')
It was also stated on the payout table.
A while ago I was wondering why I never saw the green guitars on the last reels anymore, checked the paytable and the helpfile, and there is no mention of it anymore, so I'm sure they changed it.

Reel party has also been unavailable for a while, played it yesterday and hit 5 of the fireworks/jackpotsymbols, already jumped out of my chair until i saw it only paid 10 bucks on a 30ct. bet?!?
I've had that hit before, and it paid out more than that, I'm almost 100% sure.
But KK should know that, as its one of his favourite games.

About Top Game, I played some about a year ago, and found it to be boring as hell to be honest.
But last week I got an Email offer for 25 free, so I thought lets give it a try again, and I have to say they made alot of improvements to their software, I really enjoyed playing, the games are faster now and I got lots of play for, eh, their money
What I really missed was a multiplier on the free spins, I played Ocean Treasure, Doogies Delight and the Farao game.
But the only game I kinda liked a year ago was no longer there, cant remember the name.
It was a 9-liner, pink coloured with stacked wilds and bonus symbols, with jewellery symbols, ring, gold necklace, that stuff. Any idea?

 

[KasinoKing]

What about the Rival casino's that are screwing with the skill based bonus rounds and making them even more difficult then they already are?

Hole In Won has suddenly stopped shooting straight.

In the last month or so, every time I've wound up in the Hole In Won bonus round and have made my putts, they've shot off in a different direction from where I am aiming.

Stunts like this are outright crooked (no pun intended)

So I'm not the only one to notice that! Missing putts from 20mm
However, since day one I have always said this is a pseudo skill game - you can deliberately take more putts and win less than the pre-determined max, but you can't get more by skillful putting.
It's a bit like Jacques Pot - even if you miss ALL the filling for the burger it still gives the same prize.

Reel party has also been unavailable for a while, played it yesterday and hit 5 of the fireworks/jackpotsymbols, already jumped out of my chair until i saw it only paid 10 bucks on a 30ct. bet?!?
I've had that hit before, and it paid out more than that, I'm almost 100% sure.
But KK should know that, as its one of his favourite games.

I don't have screenshots of the old pay-table, but I hit this in December 2007:-

Old Attachment (Invalid)

Betting 20c/line x 500 x 3 = $300
So the top prize was x 500 then, just as it is now.

KK

 

[Nifty29]

Ive been wanting to post something about Reel Party actually....but didnt want to sound like I was complaining.

Since it was taken down and re-introduced, the free spins are FAR less frequent and, in about 25 different sessions with multiple free spins (50 in one case with retriggers) I did not hit the bonus round ONCE. Im sure KK will agree that this is pretty bad and nothing like the old one...besides the fact that this is one of the only ways to have a decent win. It just doesnt 'feel' right....but alas I have no proof...but go and play Cleos Coins and you will notice a big difference, and the 2 used to be almost identical in the way they paid/played.

I just dont play it at all now, but it was a costly investigation!

Can't say Ive noticedthe putt thing...must be a new glitch.

Rival did change their paytables (without advertising the fact btw) on Grandmas Attic and a few others to increase the variance....and it worked LOL. I used to get a lot of play out of these games but now they are hoovers like the others....BUTTTTT its real nice when they hit!! ....(mutters)...damn variance....dang nabbit...

 

[TOC]

RTG, as we know, can operate slots at any RTP between 97.5% and 91%. Operators of RTG casinos can easily change these settings, and all the players will see is a change in the "tightness" of the slot over extended periods of play.

I'd like to see the facts to support this, please post it! Also, if true why do you advertise RTG casino's on your affiliate website's if you feel as though payouts can be manipulated? Kind of seems like a double standard don't ya think?? Your site says RTG (USA OK) but shouldn't it say something like RTG (USA OK but RTG casino's can change RTP between 97.5% and 91% and GOOD LUCK SUCKER? No pun intended, just don't get you advertising RTG on your site vrs the downgrade here in the forum. Personally if I had facts proving manipulation of any casino I'd never promote it again!

 

[AussieDave]

if you play 40 cents a spin and hit 4 symbols that paid $2.50 several months ago and now it is paying $1.50 for the exact same symbols at the exact same 40 cents, is this change across the board with all casinos?

Apart from Rival and TopGame, I'm not aware that any other casino has slashed their slot pay-tables.

Yes Fandango is a Top Game slot and is still my favorite even with the decrease in win amounts.

Why make an issue out of the reduced pay-table? It doesn't make sense given your above statement.

And you wonder why people are not on the same page as you


Cheers

Dave

 

[silcnlayc]

Nifty29:It just doesnt 'feel' right....but alas I have no proof

And then you get this knowing the only ones privy to the answer is behind the scenes people...

TOC:I'd like to see the facts to support this, please post it

If we had the "proof" we wouldn't be gving our experience in the way it was from"before" to after" now would we?? I have given proof, but that still was not good enough. Green light was a classic example...when it first came out, the bonus round paid $200 for 1st place, early this year or late last year, the bonus round now is $100. They said it was a mistake on their part and the game was "over paying,"

But no mention of this change until I brought it up and a few others that noticed it...there were a few others noticing missing payline symbols reducing the pay line hits...(The paytable was not changes so no one could prove the symbold were removed)...these little things kept popping up and slapping us in the face and many kept saying I didn't know what I was talking about...

Well, the paytable might be the same at some of casino, but the payouts and bonus hits have been reduced by the removal of some of the symbols, classic example, Ceasars. The bonus trigger on the end ALWAYS passed the window when spun, now it passes the window every 5th to 10th spin..Prove how it was before? I can't because I did not take a screenshot of EVER spin I played on it.

No, I am not crazy, subtle changes in all areas have been being done and I am angry over the fact that these casinos think we are stupid...It is NOT about winning or losing where some have lost the story, it is about the underhanded way these changes have been done and only owned up to when caught red handed as in Green Light and a few other mentions.

Take a look at the random jackpots that used to go off at an average of $2500 a few years ago...you will see NUMEROUS screenshots anywhere from a $1000 plus to $3000 plus...now, you see them running in the THOUSANDS...and very few below an average of $4000, and people are saying "nothing has changed"

.

 

[casinojack]

I'd like to see the facts to support this, please post it! Also, if true why do you advertise RTG casino's on your affiliate website's if you feel as though payouts can be manipulated? Kind of seems like a double standard don't ya think?? Your site says RTG (USA OK) but shouldn't it say something like RTG (USA OK but RTG casino's can change RTP between 97.5% and 91% and GOOD LUCK SUCKER? No pun intended, just don't get you advertising RTG on your site vrs the downgrade here in the forum. Personally if I had facts proving manipulation of any casino I'd never promote it again!

Even at 91%, if they were set that low, is still much higher then Vegas or AC's minimum. I don't really think the term manipulated is fair. Is just a setting like any slot machine in the world, online or off has...

 

[Mavin1]

Apart from Rival and TopGame, I'm not aware that any other casino has slashed their slot pay-tables.



Why make an issue out of the reduced pay-table? It doesn't make sense given your above statement.

And you wonder why people are not on the same page as you


Cheers

Dave

Not making an issue, just posting my dissapointment in how the changes are coming about and taking the fun out of playing. Actually last night after playing at Top Game, I did uninstall when my funds were depleted. I feel that it is pointless anymore to play where the line pays have changed so much no matter how much I like a slot or a casino. I feel it is unfair to small players like my self to be forced to play at higher wagers to win what I would at the lower wager.
I also feel this needs to be made public as casino reps and owners should be aware that losing their customers will affect them in the long run.
I still like Top Game, but am really dissapointed the changes are not all good. If a casino is going to cut line payouts on games and the bonus rounds are not any different than regular play then it makes me feel like why bother. I feel if line pays are going to be cut then bonus/free spin rounds should be balanced to keep the fun in it for the player that is afterall spending their money into these casinos.
You can still get some extremely long play time on minimal money with Top Game casinos unlike so many others. But I am not wasting my time anymore nor going to be forced into higher wagering.
But the issue is as I stated when I started this thread and also the issue that has long been voice by many meister members as to the play being so "tight" anymore.
Crank it down any tighter and casinos might as well shoot themselves in the head.

 

[Mavin1]

Ive been wanting to post something about Reel Party actually....but didnt want to sound like I was complaining.

Since it was taken down and re-introduced, the free spins are FAR less frequent and, in about 25 different sessions with multiple free spins (50 in one case with retriggers) I did not hit the bonus round ONCE. Im sure KK will agree that this is pretty bad and nothing like the old one...besides the fact that this is one of the only ways to have a decent win. It just doesnt 'feel' right....but alas I have no proof...but go and play Cleos Coins and you will notice a big difference, and the 2 used to be almost identical in the way they paid/played.

I just dont play it at all now, but it was a costly investigation!

Can't say Ive noticedthe putt thing...must be a new glitch.

Rival did change their paytables (without advertising the fact btw) on Grandmas Attic and a few others to increase the variance....and it worked LOL. I used to get a lot of play out of these games but now they are hoovers like the others....BUTTTTT its real nice when they hit!! ....(mutters)...damn variance....dang nabbit...

This is one of the problems, we need to be complaining and complaining loud long and unrelentingly!!!!! If we can not get a true accounting of things because of the battlefield defense of RNG's, Variances and your a crybaby, then what will we do when our last freedoms are taken away, just step back and say okay, if you say so. I say no! We should not be shot down one at a time and feel embarrassed and stupid for having said anything in the first place. This is so New World Order attitude and I hate it!

If you pay good money for a DVD player, drive all the way home with it, hook it up and find it doesn't work, do you not complain? Doesn't it make you mad when you have to unhook it, repack it and drive all the way back to the store you bought it from to get it replaced or get your money back.
Well this situation is not much different in the aspect of what a person will bow to and accept or stand up to and rebel/complain!!!!

We are spending our money into these institutions, we are the backbone since our money is what has made them and we need to be treated right and fairly across the board!
It should not cost us anymore to play today than it did a year ago or more.
We should not have to spend hundreds of dollars to be finally awarded a long and hard fought for bonus round and free spins and then to come out with $1.98 for it, this is just blatantly criminal!

When we get told then why don't you quit, well fine, I can do that, but if this is the attitude then what will a casino or rep or affiliate have when finally you have told everyone this and the majority takes you up on this lame advice. So this attitude is not a true carring about the playing public where your revenue is coming from.
I may quit playing but you will still be dealing daily with dissatisfied players complaints until we are listened to and action taken to not only make casinos/reps/affiliates happy but also make the players happy.

 

[Mavin1]

For TOC, I understand your point very well, but you have to admire KK and Vinylweatherman for being human enough to also understand the point of this post rather than just dismissing it or ignoring it as others have.
I feel that a good affiliate will continue to promote casinos that are rated as the places to play, this is their livelyhood afterall. But KK and Vinylweatherman are not promoting outright Rogues. And to ask them to quit their "jobs" because of changes, this is not reasonable in my opinion. But they cannot advertise the way you say as again this subject is difficult to prove without casinos actually stepping up to the plate and admitting, yes, we have cut paytables, yes we have cut frequency of bonus/freespin rounds or the triggers that make them happen.

If it ever does become established that yes, these changes have been made, it would not fall into a rogue situation in my opinion, just allow the playing public to be aware of such changes and allow us to decide if it's worth it to continue playing or move on, this is a more adult professional approach than to slip things under the radar on us.

So really it comes down to the casinos/platforms being the ones that need to be held accountable and fess up when changes are made, it's not that big of a deal for them to do this, just seems like good business sense to me.

Reps and Affiliates are just the unfortunate ones to have to stand in the front lines but aren't equipped to actually give total resolution to such a way back beyond the back door subject. This comes from the very top, but what Reps and Affilates can do is beat down the door that we at the bottom can't reach.

Good example of what it takes for people to get to the truth is how it took hackers to confiscate the evidence about the global warming scam. This drastic measure proved the deception. Do we the playing public have to resort to such measures?

 

[Simmo!]

This is one of the problems, we need to be complaining and complaining loud long and unrelentingly!!!!! If we can not get a true accounting of things because of the battlefield defense of RNG's, Variances and your a crybaby, then what will we do when our last freedoms are taken away, just step back and say okay, if you say so.

If you want my opinion (which you do because you started a public thread ) then you are going about this the wrong way. Instead of complaining about how you think casinos are reducing specific game payouts which a) will achieve nothing and b) is a regular occurrence here ever since I can remember, you should be lobbying for the software providers to state the expected return percentages in the paytable of each of the games, like Wagerworks already do to their great credit.

That would be a far more productive use of time than yet another complaint thread, would benefit players the world over, get you lots of kudos and prove once and for all going forward whether game percentages change.

Or you could just carry on complaining and we'll go through it all again in a few weeks. And then again, and again...ad infinitum 'til we die or get really, really bored