Casino owners/Reps and Affiliates and All Interested Players

[Scooter7]

I agree wholeheartedly with Simmo's analysis and suggestion.
What we'd all like to see is transparency and honesty that results in trust, respect, and loyalty from the players towards the (non-rogue) casino operators and software providers.

Personally, I would never play at RTG because I don't trust them. Playtech and Rival also give me pause with respect to where my entertainment dollar goes for similar, but less severe reasons.

Microgaming and Cryptologic are the only online providers (32Red and InterCasino being the top casinos from each) that I do trust and even MG doesn't give me 100% confidence. They lose points for their (imho) greedy and unfair tournament prize pool issues, thus eroding some of my trust.

I do believe (as others have stated) that even the lowest slot machine returns do exceed acceptable levels at most, if not all land-based casinos, but it's not an apples to apples comparison because a land-based casino, in most cases, doesn't have the same level of 'instant competition' that the online world provides. The nature of the internet allows players to be one click away from the next casino which should ensure a better 'sale price' for their merchandise as opposed to land-based casinos. Here in Toronto, Canada, one can go 70 miles north of Toronto to a full-sized, commercial casino (Rama). If the payouts aren't acceptable once you're there, you're a lot farther than 'one click' from the competition-you've got a 160 mile drive to get to Niagara Falls. The nature of offline geography lends itself to artificially higher profit margins.

In the long run, we as players are better off with the level of competition that the internet provides as long as the stench of the rogues can be reduced and/or eliminated; keeping the reputable operators from being tainted by their underhanded antics.

 

[Mavin1]

If you want my opinion (which you do because you started a public thread ) then you are going about this the wrong way. Instead of complaining about how you think casinos are reducing specific game payouts which a) will achieve nothing and b) is a regular occurrence here ever since I can remember, you should be lobbying for the software providers to state the expected return percentages in the paytable of each of the games, like Wagerworks already do to their great credit.

That would be a far more productive use of time than yet another complaint thread, would benefit players the world over, get you lots of kudos and prove once and for all going forward whether game percentages change.

Or you could just carry on complaining and we'll go through it all again in a few weeks. And then again, and again...ad infinitum 'til we die or get really, really bored

I think if you and your thankers are tired and bored of those of us that have only the avenue of a public forum to voice our opinions, then why don't you go lobby for us to get things fixed and then we will shut up as you wish and not bore you anymore. Or as NJ would say, if you are bored by these threads then why are you posting in them?

 

[Simmo!]

...why don't you go lobby for us to get things fixed and then we will shut up as you wish and not bore you anymore.

I think you may have missed the point I was making. It wasn't that you bore me, I was assuming you wanted things to change or at least to be more transparent so I was giving you a suggestion to help you achieve that goal.

I'll happily lend you my support if you want to take the idea forward.

 

[silcnlayc]

Simmo!:you should be lobbying for the software providers to state the expected return percentages in the paytable of each of the games

All due respect Simmo!, if the players here don't believe, how are we going to get any provider to listen to us ?? We are only one...and a single voice without clout is always ignored, I know...I have been there.

If others with more clout than a lowly player would step up as a WHOLE (group wise)and believe what you just said that can make a difference for us players, that can gain the ear of these providers, maybe then we would see this transparency..

This IS the only place we have as a player...and some casinos do listen up to point, until it affects the bottom line that they have raised higher...


All done...sad it always comes to this point...where are all the affiliates/webmasters/ etc that should be doing this lobbying for us...why do they not listen to our pleas? What we get is exactly this response..."Take it somewhere else". As I said...all done...
...

 

[Simmo!]

All due respect Simmo!, if the players here don't believe, how are we going to get any provider to listen to us ??

Don't know 'til you try. CM is quite a powerful forum for disseminating opinions and information. There are tools to help lobbying, you have people here who know providers very well, others who attend industry conferences, even the providers themselves stop by. But they're not going to read rant threads.

My bet is that even operators will support it (if they don't alter payouts!) because they know the percentages compare favourably to land-based and are usually controlled by the software provider anyway.

So the choices are a) don't bother trying or b) give it a shot. It needs someone who feels strongly about it to organise it, but I think you'll find a lot of support from players, affiliates and even some operators. Will it work? Who knows...but it might.

 

[Mavin1]

I think you may have missed the point I was making. It wasn't that you bore me, I was assuming you wanted things to change or at least to be more transparent so I was giving you a suggestion to help you achieve that goal.

I'll happily lend you my support if you want to take the idea forward.

Well it was that unallowed pms raising it's ugly head again. Your suggestions are great for those would can actually do such a thing. Sure I want change, but so does everyone with questions or concerns, but what does one do about it? How do you fix it or make it better?
If you sincerely have real suggestions, then I am willing to hear it, but if this is a close the door approach then my passion for an idea will get dashed as so many others have.

Silcynlace couldn't have said it better! We at the bottom need those above us to speak for us, as we are so transparent they don't even see us.

 

[Scooter7]

My bet is that even operators will support it (if they don't alter payouts!) because they know the percentages compare favourably to land-based and are usually controlled by the software provider anyway.

...but I think you'll find a lot of support from players, affiliates and even some operators. Will it work? Who knows...but it might.

Very true statements. From the point of view of an honest operator or software provider, more transparency will expose the rogues for what they are and allow the upstanding casinos and their software to shine in a favourable light. That will widen the gap between the best and worst in the business to the benefit of both the good providers and their loyal players.

 

[kakata]

this thread cost me 160 bux....
I see some ppl saying that they get a lot of plaingtime at TOP GAME...of course they do..!!!
Ive been betting the minimum all the time and what I got is...a lot of 5/ 15/ 25/45/cents on an average bet of 35c.
Now what Im tring to say in my broken english is:
I want rather lose at any RTG (not all of em) and DREAM i might win big (as I did 5 times) ...instead of a painfull , boring...slow continuing loss at topgame who will give you plaing time (sure)but who cares???
IMO
I prefer to have a DREAM where I can have a shot to win a lot on a small bet (cause thats what i can afford "A SMALL BET") instead of losing steadely 5c. a spin, knowing already (like at top game) that I will NEVER win sh*t.
Just my opinion...not intended to offend anyone...so please do not attack me.

 

[Simmo!]

...why don't you go lobby for us to get things fixed and then we will shut up as you wish...

...where are all the affiliates/webmasters/ etc that should be doing this lobbying for us...

How do you fix it or make it better?
If you sincerely have real suggestions, then I am willing to hear it but if this is a close the door approach then my passion for an idea will get dashed as so many others have

You can't expect everyone else to do the work for you. Especially when you talk to them like that. You'll get support from those people, but you're the ones that are asking for a solution - there is no guarantee that this is the *right* solution, but it's as good a starting point as any and at the very least will get the message across in a positive rather than in this conspiracy-theorist manner. It needs thought, a bit of planning, but if you really want something then it doesn't always come without a fight, right?

From the point of view of an honest operator or software provider, more transparency will expose the rogues for what they are and allow the upstanding casinos and their software to shine in a favourable light. That will widen the gap between the best and worst in the business to the benefit of both the good providers and their loyal players.

Positive strategies are always more effective than negative ones in my opinion.

 

[Mavin1]

this thread cost me 160 bux....
I see some ppl saying that they get a lot of plaingtime at TOP GAME...of course they do..!!!
Ive been betting the minimum all the time and what I got is...a lot of 5/ 15/ 25/45/cents on an average bet of 35c.
Now what Im tring to say in my broken english is:
I want rather lose at any RTG (not all of em) and DREAM i might win big (as I did 5 times) ...instead of a painfull , boring...slow continuing loss at topgame who will give you plaing time (sure)but who cares???
IMO
I prefer to have a DREAM where I can have a shot to win a lot on a small bet (cause thats what i can afford "A SMALL BET") instead of losing steadely 5c. a spin, knowing already (like at top game) that I will NEVER win sh*t.
Just my opinion...not intended to offend anyone...so please do not attack me.

Sorry Kakata

 

[Mavin1]

Okay, I just shot this quick email off to Top Games website.

Hi, I have been having a heated discussion on Casinomeisters forum about casinos, decreasing the line wins and if this is with all casinos or just yours. My thread is Casino owners/Reps/Affiliates and all interested players, if you would like to give your inuput.
I have been playing Top Game mostly at Rome since June and have noticed the decreased line win payouts from then until now. Can you explain why this change has taken place?
I have finally unistalled Rome and other Top Game casinos due to the fact that now I am forced to play at a higher wager amount to win what I did at the lower amount before.
Bad enough that the five free spin rounds are a total bust, but they have no multipliers to even set them apart from regular play. Like with Reel Crime, I play at $1, get the five free spins and win a stinking 20 cents!
On Diablo 13, since the wilds were put back on reels 1 and 5, the play has been terrible, it used to be my favorite, but now it just takes and rarely gives.
But the fun of playing Top Game and staying loyal has been pretty much dashed for me since the line payouts have been decreased.
I do have a posted win from a couple months back on Fandango, I was playing 75 cents a spin, hit the pistols and wilds for a line win of $500. Then a bit later I was playing the Pharoah multi slot, at 75 cents a spin and got all the Pharoahs with wilds and it paid only $100. The Pistols and Pharoah are both the high paying symbols.
But all the cuts no matter how small the win is very discouraging now since being with Top Game before these changes were made.
Eviecakes

 

[Nifty29]

I think its always admirable when someone feels passionate about something to a point when they want to organise some kind of campaign/petition etc.....so Mavin, its time to step up to the plate!

Its a topic very close to your heart, so you would be the perfect person to get things rolling. Of course, its up to you how you go about it but I can geiv you a few tips form my years around CM:

1. Always (and I mean always) be polite and keep all your comments on topic. Never get personal - you will lose support straight away.

2. Start a new thread which includes some kind of poll e.g. "have payouts decreased' or 'do you feel you are losing more than you used to' or something along those lines. Let it stay around for a few weeks and encourage members to vote and post.

3. Use the results of that poll to lobby Bryan or start a petition, or even compose a group letter to some major operators to see if they are prepared to be more transparent. At least with some kind of evidence of player sentiment, you have something to hang your hat on.

4. I would be realistic about what information will be provided, or what changes will be made by operators. A lot of this stuff is (or at least has been) confidential for commercial reasons so they may not be inclined to answer all your questions. Remember, the information from operators will be what they want you to have and you will have to trust them to some degree....and this can be a big leap if you already believe they are dudding you.

I would support you, as Im sure most members would, in attaining greater transparency from casinos. It is also important, however, to stress to players who say 'they never seem to cash out' that there are methods you can employ to change that to some degree and it cant always be blamed on casino payout % (as Ive stated in previous posts)

Mavin - the floor is yours!!

 

[kakata]

please be careful Mavin...cause Im on the floor, do not step on me

 

[casinojack]

Very true statements. From the point of view of an honest operator or software provider, more transparency will expose the rogues for what they are and allow the upstanding casinos and their software to shine in a favourable light. That will widen the gap between the best and worst in the business to the benefit of both the good providers and their loyal players.

Keep in mind also though, some of us operators CANNOT share a lot of details even if we wanted to...Non disclosure agreements etc...Is not really that easy but I would be willing to hear thought on how coulan operator say claim a slot is set at 97.5%. then you want proof? We cannot show the backend so then what?

Just curious...and I will help on our own to get to where you you want as much as we can.

 

[Scooter7]

on how coulan operator say claim a slot is set at 97.5%. then you want proof? We cannot show the backend so then what?

Just curious...and I will help on our own to get to where you you want as much as we can.

You've hit on the main part of the problem. If you go to a land-based casino in a regulated jurisdiction, you know (or should know) that the games presented are honest and fair, having been approved by the regulatory body. You don't even need to trust the casino operator; just the licensing body.

Online, such regulatory bodies are not universally trustworthy (Kana-ha-ha-ke), Costa Rica, etc.

If I told you that software company 'x' had submitted their games and software to the New Jersey Gambling Commission and been tested and approved, would that provide players with reason to believe company 'x' was fair? It's all about regulation AND trusting the regulators.

There are so many examples of unfair, unethical, and/or (what would be) illegal practices in the online gambling world that trust is a scarce commodity. Additionally, a large percentage of gamblers are superstitious and/or have very selective and short memories, further adding to the problem. Player 'a' lost their deposit at one casino and assumes cheating (because no one they trust can confirm the fairness of their games). Player 'b' made a fortune at the same casino and got paid so their opinion of that casino is very good. (etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum).

It all comes down to the fact that rogue operators cannot stand up to the light of scrutiny and scrutiny can only be trusted if the scrutineers are credible. To me, that's the first step; finding scrutineers that are credible. The rest will fall in place in short order if the first step can be taken.

 

[Mavin1]

Keep in mind also though, some of us operators CANNOT share a lot of details even if we wanted to...Non disclosure agreements etc...Is not really that easy but I would be willing to hear thought on how coulan operator say claim a slot is set at 97.5%. then you want proof? We cannot show the backend so then what?

Just curious...and I will help on our own to get to where you you want as much as we can.

Hi Casinojack, thank you for your input. Let me ask you then if I a player wanted to know if you had decreased the line payouts, decreased number of bonus rounds or freespins alotted for a time frame could you divulge this information or does it fall the non disclosure agreement?

 

[Simmo!]

IMO transparency in fairness of the games is a key factor in the online gambling industry moving forward. Game fairness has been a topic of debate on all forums for many years and is a large factor in determining why our industry is looked on with a certain level of distrust.

A good starting point for this IMO is for the software providers to implement payout information in each specific game. Maybe even with a "switch" that means an operator can show it or not show it. That puts the software providers in a position of trust at least.

The operators who choose to be transparent can be - those who don't wish to be so can then become the basis for discussions like this. This could also provide a competitive edge to those operators who want it aswell, something that is hard to find, or hard to make obvious, when so many casinos use the same software.

If indeed it transpires that certain software providers allow their licencees to alter payout ratios, this could potentially be useful to those casinos who truly run a fair and proper operation and detrimental to those who don't. That is in everyone's best interests, including the software providers who rely on the licencees for their reputation.

Also worth noting that ICE is coming up in London in January and several members of this board will be attending. Although software providers have a tendency not to respond publically to players, thats not to say they don't listen and the majority of software providers do exhibit there.

I have to say that this is one thing I think the industry really needs if it is to be taken seriously, especially considering the legal moves in certain countries. Wagerworks do it and not only do you rarely see their games questioned but the numbers also inspire confidence. In the one instance I can remember when a slot payout of 93% was queried, that number was still enough to prove that online expected returns are pretty decent.

 

[DogBoy001]

If indeed it transpires that certain software providers allow their licencees to alter payout ratios, this could potentially be useful to those casinos who truly run a fair and proper operation and detrimental to those who don't. That is in everyone's best interests, including the software providers who rely on the licencees for their reputation.

I have to say that this is one thing I think the industry really needs if it is to be taken seriously, especially considering the legal moves in certain countries. Wagerworks do it and not only do you rarely see their games questioned but the numbers also inspire confidence. In the one instance I can remember when a slot payout of 93% was queried, that number was still enough to prove that online expected returns are pretty decent.

Heya

Leaving aside the primary issue raised, I would point out that it is perfectly fair and reasonable to allow operators to have a range of possible RTP settings.

This is standard practice in the traditional B&M industry, hence why it's interesting that you raise Wagerworks as an example.

If the internet industry is ever regulated by the U.S., it will allow operators to have different RTP settings, within certain bands (as per every B&M jurisdiction in the country).
And if it follows the B&M regulations then the RTP setting in use will NOT be something that operators will have to disclose.
Wagerworks would adhere to this, as IGT their mother company does in traditional operations.

Whether it should be is the topic (apologies), but I thought I'd throw in my 2c to clarify that allowing different RTP settings does not make one's operation less than a "fair and proper operation"

Woooof

 

[KasinoKing]

Let me ask you then if I a player wanted to know if you had decreased the line payouts...

You keep making this comment, but I don't recall you giving any specifics..

Can you give me some examples of a Top Game slot which you think has had the pay-table changed, and when you think it changed?
Then I will see if I can find some old tables to compare with current so we can see.

KK

 

[Simmo!]

Heya

Leaving aside the primary issue raised, I would point out that it is perfectly fair and reasonable to allow operators to have a range of possible RTP settings.

This is standard practice in the traditional B&M industry, hence why it's interesting that you raise Wagerworks as an example.

There is however quite a difference in perception between the online industry and the well established B&M industry. In order to get anywhere near a level footing in terms of trust, and in light of a very limited largely self-policed regulatory environment, the industry needs to do all it can to raise it's image and profile.

To this end, IMO there need to be extra measures taken from within to garner that trust and prove that the industry isn't as grey as some would like to think it is. Right now, there are areas of the industry which could be vastly improved to this end, and until such a time as global, albeit fragmented, regulation is in place, these changes have to come from within. That does of course assume that the industry *wants* to improve

 

[DogBoy001]

There is however quite a difference in perception between the online industry and the well established B&M industry. In order to get anywhere near a level footing in terms of trust, and in light of a very limited largely self-policed regulatory environment, the industry needs to do all it can to raise it's image and profile.

To this end, IMO there need to be extra measures taken from within to garner that trust and prove that the industry isn't as grey as some would like to think it is. Right now, there are areas of the industry which could be vastly improved to this end, and until such a time as global, albeit fragmented, regulation is in place, these changes have to come from within. That does of course assume that the industry *wants* to improve

Good points, and in relation to a self-regulated industry I couldn't agree more

 

[Nifty29]

God I love a good meaty discussion!

Thanks everyone for your valued input..some excellent points raised, especially about the acceptable and regulated RTP changes available to land based operators. I think sometimes we forget that B&Ms dont exactly provide you with an FAQ when you enter the venue with everything you need to know before you place a bet, and I havent seen where each machine has the current RTP posted (I know occasionally its done for promo purposes etc)

DogBoy - do you know how all this works in Victoria, with the central computer recording each bet and controlling RTP as per the legislation? Do operators have no control in Victoria? I know its different in NSW and SA, particularly where in SA the venues actually 'purchase' the machines rather than having them provided by a 3rd party like Tabcorp etc.

(Sorry if Im derailing here but its kinda relevant )

Wagerworks do it and not only do you rarely see their games questioned but the numbers also inspire confidence

When will Wagerworks let us Aussies PLAY??? I love their games and its so damn annoying!

 

[Simmo!]

When will Wagerworks let us Aussies PLAY??? I love their games and its so damn annoying!

Because they are owned by IGT, that won't happen until Aussie laws permit it - it might even be after US legislation.

 

[DogBoy001]

DogBoy - do you know how all this works in Victoria, with the central computer recording each bet and controlling RTP as per the legislation? Do operators have no control in Victoria? I know its different in NSW and SA, particularly where in SA the venues actually 'purchase' the machines rather than having them provided by a 3rd party like Tabcorp etc.

Heya,

As far as I know there are no operational intranet systems within Australia (yet).
The offices of liquor and gaming regulation in QLD and NSW have recently drafted amendments to allow intranet operation, but at this stage the only non-venue interaction (that I'm aware of) relates to management systems that simply collate information, there is no control.
The key here being whether the results are centrally-driven (intranet with RNG at server), centrally-downloaded (download from server but RNG at machine) or stand-alone (game and RNG is located at the machine, with no avenue for alteration remotely)

Intranet system regulation will not differ from stand-alone machine regulation as far as RTP (or other game mechanics such as max bet, max win etc) are concerned.
Hence in most jurisdictions operators will be able to change an RTP setting once every (n) days, even if they change the game that is being displayed.
As with stand-alone systems there is no requirement to display the RTP in use.
Most pub and club operators will never want to change the RTP anyway, as most pub and club operators set the RTP to the lowest legal variation.

Incidentally, there's also no difference in the frequency with which an operator can change RTP based on whether they own a machine, or lease it, they're still bound by the legislation, and also bound by the available RTP variations the game has been supplied with.

Woooof

 

[casinojack]

Hi Casinojack, thank you for your input. Let me ask you then if I a player wanted to know if you had decreased the line payouts, decreased number of bonus rounds or freespins alotted for a time frame could you divulge this information or does it fall the non disclosure agreement?

I could tell you that as far as RTG goes, you can find most of this information on RTG's website. They have been certified as being fair, and this latest software release has some things that make the games more then fair.

I will tell you about half our slots are set at the max payout we can do, average 97%. We don't sit there "playing" with the number day in and day out.

I think is important to maybe try and filter a few things.

1. Make a list of software providers you feel are fair. RTG, MG, Playtech, etc etc etc. I think there are quite a few brands noone would say the software is rigged

2. The the other side of the coin is the operators themselves.

I might be confused but reading this thread seems to go back and forth. I will answer anything I can.

EDIT: not that the RTP the minimum payout in Nevada is 75%, and in New Jersey, 83%. RTG Min you can set ona few machines is WELL over this.

 

[Scooter7]

EDIT: not that the RTP the minimum payout in Nevada is 75%, and in New Jersey, 83%. RTG Min you can set ona few machines is WELL over this.

When I worked at a land-based casino (Rama, north of Toronto), I believe the minimum was 85% (as mandated by the Government). There is no way online casinos could regularly get away with this due to the proximity of the competition (i.e. a mouse-click).

Another thing to note is that the published returns for places like Nevada clearly show that the higher the coin denomination, the greater the payback. This is another area where online and land have some big differences. Other than Inter's VIP slots (versions of some of their 'regular' slots which I'm told pay more-but they don't divulge exactly how much more), I don't think there are any differences in payout percentage as you increase in coin value online. Land-based slots have only started adding multi-coin value capabilities in the last few years (imho taking the idea from the online casinos and increasing the 'virtual' capacity of their physically limited floor space. I wonder if the chip in the machine contains different payout schedules based on coin value for those cabinet games?

 

[silcnlayc]

casinojack:I might be confused but reading this thread seems to go back and forth. I will answer anything I can.

I am going to try to be clear and hopefully I will get the point across I have been trying to make.

1. Removing of winning combination symbols to improve the Random Jackpots to the detriment of the average joe.

2. Removing of bonus triggering symbols to increase the spins required to attain this goal, again, to the detriment of the player due to less payout on the bonus triggered. (removing a scatter or wild for the trigger which then lessens the bonus payout also)

3. Raising the Random Jackpot triggers to increase more play from players that were used to an average Jackpot, not realizing this change till all the casinos started doing it...VERY BAD move...IMO..I would rather have the smaller ones going off more frequently knowing there is more of a chance of hitting it (not that I have ever hit one,) but the chance WAS still there in my mind, which I no longer believe at all and is the reason, I pretty much stopped playing these casinos as much....knowing this chance has been lowered even more, again, through greed???

There are a few other things I have noticed and every one of them goes against the average joe. What is the reasoning behind this?? All I can think of is greed...

.

 

[greek39]

But then again Jack so were many other now rogue software operators are still categorized as being fair. According to Microgaming and Ecogra Grand Prive is fair. According to Prism RTG brand they say their fair. As far a visiting the RTG site all I see is blanks unless realtimegaming.com is the wrong URL.

As per the intent of this thread,

I think casino owners, reps and affiliates should be lobbying to bring true fair play back to online gaming.

Based on the input I provided and others certainly raises some doubt as to the fairness of game play.

In addition Online Casinos are not regulated therefore what you see is not always what you get. The House Hold Percentage can be played with. However I will admit this is seldom the case and a vast majority of cyber casinos are indeed fair.

greek39

 

[casinojack]

When I worked at a land-based casino (Rama, north of Toronto), I believe the minimum was 85% (as mandated by the Government). There is no way online casinos could regularly get away with this due to the proximity of the competition (i.e. a mouse-click).

Another thing to note is that the published returns for places like Nevada clearly show that the higher the coin denomination, the greater the payback. This is another area where online and land have some big differences. Other than Inter's VIP slots (versions of some of their 'regular' slots which I'm told pay more-but they don't divulge exactly how much more), I don't think there are any differences in payout percentage as you increase in coin value online. Land-based slots have only started adding multi-coin value capabilities in the last few years (imho taking the idea from the online casinos and increasing the 'virtual' capacity of their physically limited floor space. I wonder if the chip in the machine contains different payout schedules based on coin value for those cabinet games?

For RTG, there 100% is! The same goes for hitting the random jackpot, higher bet amount, increased chance.

(Hope i'm reading your statement correct)

 

[casinojack]

I am going to try to be clear and hopefully I will get the point across I have been trying to make.

1. Removing of winning combination symbols to improve the Random Jackpots to the detriment of the average joe.

2. Removing of bonus triggering symbols to increase the spins required to attain this goal, again, to the detriment of the player due to less payout on the bonus triggered. (removing a scatter or wild for the trigger which then lessens the bonus payout also)

3. Raising the Random Jackpot triggers to increase more play from players that were used to an average Jackpot, not realizing this change till all the casinos started doing it...VERY BAD move...IMO..I would rather have the smaller ones going off more frequently knowing there is more of a chance of hitting it (not that I have ever hit one,) but the chance WAS still there in my mind, which I no longer believe at all and is the reason, I pretty much stopped playing these casinos as much....knowing this chance has been lowered even more, again, through greed???

There are a few other things I have noticed and every one of them goes against the average joe. What is the reasoning behind this?? All I can think of is greed...

.

I can only answer for us, and of course sometimes the way a % is used with the symbols, but this is a setting of RDP, but to hurt a player,just set the %. Good points.

 

[casinojack]

But then again Jack so were many other now rogue software operators are still categorized as being fair. According to Microgaming and Ecogra Grand Prive is fair. According to Prism RTG brand they say their fair. As far a visiting the RTG site all I see is blanks unless realtimegaming.com is the wrong URL.

As per the intent of this thread,

Based on the input I provided and others certainly raises some doubt as to the fairness of game play.

In addition Online Casinos are not regulated therefore what you see is not always what you get. The House Hold Percentage can be played with. However I will admit this is seldom the case and a vast majority of cyber casinos are indeed fair.

greek39

Sure greek, good point.

As far as rtg, you might need to google. their site is not to user friendly. As an affiliate I used a a search string that still works, in finding this info.I can PM you if you like or if you think a sec you might figure it out.Is an advanced search option but is public none the less.

 

[Wildfire7]

For TOC, I understand your point very well, but you have to admire KK and Vinylweatherman for being human enough to also understand the point of this post rather than just dismissing it or ignoring it as others have.
I feel that a good affiliate will continue to promote casinos that are rated as the places to play, this is their livelyhood afterall. But KK and Vinylweatherman are not promoting outright Rogues. And to ask them to quit their "jobs" because of changes, this is not reasonable in my opinion. But they cannot advertise the way you say as again this subject is difficult to prove without casinos actually stepping up to the plate and admitting, yes, we have cut paytables, yes we have cut frequency of bonus/freespin rounds or the triggers that make them happen.

If it ever does become established that yes, these changes have been made, it would not fall into a rogue situation in my opinion, just allow the playing public to be aware of such changes and allow us to decide if it's worth it to continue playing or move on, this is a more adult professional approach than to slip things under the radar on us.

So really it comes down to the casinos/platforms being the ones that need to be held accountable and fess up when changes are made, it's not that big of a deal for them to do this, just seems like good business sense to me.

Reps and Affiliates are just the unfortunate ones to have to stand in the front lines but aren't equipped to actually give total resolution to such a way back beyond the back door subject. This comes from the very top, but what Reps and Affilates can do is beat down the door that we at the bottom can't reach.

Good example of what it takes for people to get to the truth is how it took hackers to confiscate the evidence about the global warming scam. This drastic measure proved the deception. Do we the playing public have to resort to such measures?

Mavin

I have already shared with you my own opinions with you in this thread on page 1, so I do not intend to repeat comments I've already made.

However reading through this thread you have to understand that a forum is all about bringing together lots of opinions, some you will agree with, some you will disagree with and some you will think are rediculas. That is totally your perrogative.

So if somebody disagrees with you that does not mean that are dismissing you or ignoring you, nor does it mean they are somehow less human than people you do agree with. They are simply sharing their own views which you have to accept.

You seem very passionate about this particular topic, nothing wrong with that. But remember other people can be as equally passionate as to regards to their own views on the topic.

Mike

 

[daera]

Google is my friend... try typing these in google

site:realtimegaming.com marketing

There's a lot of info there. Look for the links with the specific games that you're interested in, and that say marketing.

 

[casinojack]

Google is my friend... try typing these in google

site:realtimegaming.com marketing

There's a lot of info there. Look for the links with the specific games that you're interested in, and that say marketing.

You on the right track, some VERY good stuff found there.

 

[Scooter7]

For RTG, there 100% is! The same goes for hitting the random jackpot, higher bet amount, increased chance.

(Hope i'm reading your statement correct)

Not quite. Random jackpots based on bet size are a bit of a thorn in my side. Yes, their trigger frequency is based on bet size, but the overall RTP doesn't change as your bet size changes. You pay more money to hit jackpots more frequently, but your individual return (and the size of the jackpots you win) is unchanged. Additionally, if your bet size is so great that you're hitting random jackpots a lot, it's very very likely that the jackpot amounts are insignificant to you relative to your wager.

Example:

If a 25-line, 1 cent per line player hits a $50 Marvel jackpot at Inter, it's a big deal on a $0.25 bet.
A 5 dollar per line player has 500x as great a chance of hitting the same jackpot, but a $50 payout on a $125 bet is (in my opinion) pretty ridiculous.

I think what we need to see are more games that give low-coin value players equal chances to win (proportionally) smaller jackpots. Sorry to keep bringing up Inter as an example (they are my favourite), but their Crazy Jackpot slot does exactly that. Whatever the jackpot hit rate is doesn't change with the coin value, but the jackpot size changes. This way the little guys are going to see the same number of wins as the high-rollers and the high-rollers' jackpots are going to be significant in comparison to their bet size-best of both worlds for big and small players alike.

 

[Mavin1]

Not quite. Random jackpots based on bet size are a bit of a thorn in my side. Yes, their trigger frequency is based on bet size, but the overall RTP doesn't change as your bet size changes. You pay more money to hit jackpots more frequently, but your individual return (and the size of the jackpots you win) is unchanged. Additionally, if your bet size is so great that you're hitting random jackpots a lot, it's very very likely that the jackpot amounts are insignificant to you relative to your wager.

Example:

If a 25-line, 1 cent per line player hits a $50 Marvel jackpot at Inter, it's a big deal on a $0.25 bet.
A 5 dollar per line player has 500x as great a chance of hitting the same jackpot, but a $50 payout on a $125 bet is (in my opinion) pretty ridiculous.

I think what we need to see are more games that give low-coin value players equal chances to win (proportionally) smaller jackpots. Sorry to keep bringing up Inter as an example (they are my favourite), but their Crazy Jackpot slot does exactly that. Whatever the jackpot hit rate is doesn't change with the coin value, but the jackpot size changes. This way the little guys are going to see the same number of wins as the high-rollers and the high-rollers' jackpots are going to be significant in comparison to their bet size-best of both worlds for big and small players alike.

Yes Scooter, very well said, THANK YOU!!!!

I being a US player can't help feeling that we are not only being forced out of the casino venue but also as a small player being forced to either wager more or bug off.
How many times do we get casino emails with events that are always based on the players with the higher wagers and such, we little players can't even participate in these promos.
They take away progressives, now taking away new games, cutting line wins and so on. It makes many of us feel that just because we can only spend $25 at a time that we aren't worth bothering with, we're peanuts and they only want the macadamias.
Then we have to contend with stupid laws perpetrated on the adult US citizens thus losing 75 percent of the brands that were available to us before and no longer are. So our choices have been greatly dimisnished and it's hard to accept that the value of our dollar is diminshed as well.
I would love to be playing at Intercasino again. I would love to have back the choices that the rest of the world has still available.
Keeping competition open to the wider market like it used to be probably made casinos more caring about all players since the did have to have the competitive edge.

I would like to also thank everyone personally for participating in this post. Although I do not always have the politically correct attitude I appreciate all posters.
We may butt heads, agree or disagree, but at least I feel we are making progress and that's all that really matters.
Some of you may think I don't like or agree with you and say this is healthy debate so accept it, well I have seen that not all of you have agreed with me either, I can accept it and those of you I did butt heads with I hope you can accept the same as well.
Afterall, it's not about me, it's about the little guy having a fair chance at a venue we also enjoy just as much as everyone else on this forum.

 

[joyceflorida]

Mavin - I just want to let you know I totally agree with your observations about online play. The difference in payouts, bonus rounds and lack of fair play is extremely noticeable. This dramatic decrease has been going on for quite some time now.

RTG has definitely shown this in games like T-Rex and crystal waters (which was great when it first came out). The answer comes down to greed. Maybe less players are depositing less in this economy and the casino needs to maintain it's profits, so it pays less. The software needed to be adjusted to insure this happens.

Whatever the reason, it's quite apparent and I believe most players will lose all their deposits 90% of the time. You're better off going to a land based casino where you can move to different machines and know that the difference there is "luck" and not casino operator intervention.

 

[Mavin1]

Thank you Joyceflorida for your input and support.

One of the things that many should keep in mind here is this debate has been going on for some time, long before I ever joined this forum and has escalated to today.
We are not complaining or whinning, because we are adults here and aren't looking to be stood in the corner for being dissobedient.
We know very well that we can have losing streaks just as we can have winning ones. But being players for a long time at many platforms we learn to know how they play and how they pay or not pay. We can recognize changes that go on behind the closed doors because these changes are and have been affecting the bottom line which is the players.
If we do not speak up and question things then just as in government and ruling classes they just keep throwing these changes in our face as they know many won't speak up or are affraid to speak up or simply don't care to speak up.
I believe there is nothing wrong with speaking up, questioning, researching or getting to the bottom of things if possible.
There is probably only about 1/3 maybe less of real players that visit forums let alone post on them. So with this in mind there may be hundreds/thousands/10's of thousands that are truly dissapointed to see changes in this multi-billion dollar business that is affecting the bottom line, the players, as we have all been witnessing over the years.

As for reps like casino jack, I don't pick on him personally but he did open the can of worms when he made the statement that he could change games for a player at his level.
It doesn't matter that "he" stated this, what matters is this reckless and cavalier attitude sabotages the last bits of trust that we the players have. It hurts the entire industry, owners, other reps, affiliates and most importantly the players themselves.

So I ask everyone reading this to please visit Simmo's thread to vote on Transparency in published expect returns (by game). Your vote does count and will hopefully make a difference. Then maybe we can get back to enjoying our time online and forums like this will hear less complaining.
Thank you

 

[bernynhel]

Sorry I've taken so long to post here, Mavin1. I've never been much of an RTG player so I can't comment on whether or not those sites are any better or worse than they've ever been. My luck has been down at Rival, lately, but I can't point any fingers there since it hasn't been that long of a losing streak. My last few months at Microgaming casinos has been the best it's been ever - in over 7 years - as far as consistent good hits at sites across the board are concerned. And me n 3Dice are cool, my reluctance to cash out in lieu of really puttin the "hurt" on 'em, notwithstanding. Wish I could be of more help.

 

[Mavin1]

Hi Bern, glad to have your input. The thread was really regarding all casinos not just the RTG's although they are usually the ones with the biggest complaints more constantly.
But as it was pointed out to me that I only have been referring to RNG's and Variances as being the culprit for such bad returns to so many long time players, but I should also have been speaking of RTP, this was a new term for me but made perfect sense, because if the RNG's and such haven't changed or stay within a certain range then the RTP is what is called into question here and maybe should have been all along.
But I think we fought a good fight which initiated a new thread for the transparency poll that was started by Simmo, thank you, many voted and now it is closed and hopefully something positive will come of it for all the players that continue to give their money in earnest to these online sites.
But as for me, I am pretty much done with online gaming. I have been playing for many years and have never been so dissapointed as I have been the last couple years.
For us being in the US our choices are pretty much in a box, there is nothing new, just more of the same ole popping up all the time and it's like eating oatmeal day after day after day, blah!
But thank you Bern.