Casino On Net will steal your deposit and winnings

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
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In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account."

This unfortunately pretty much covers it. Sorry, but I agree with eCOGRA and 888 on this one :cool:
 

fortuneriver

Dormant account
Joined
May 7, 2006
Location
polis
Webzcas said:
This unfortunately pretty much covers it. Sorry, but I agree with eCOGRA and 888 on this one :cool:

If i would have violated any Reef club's rules- they should have return my withdrawal at Reef club back to the account and to ask me to comply with the rules. Instead- they pay my withdrawal at Reef club and steal my 700$ winnings at Casino on Net...
 

Zoozie

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fortuneriver said:
27th March 2006, you played one round of Roulette on your Casino On Net account, betting $200, which you won. You then proceeded to play several rounds of Blackjack and left your account with a Bankroll of $710. You did not login again and were blocked for being a Bonus Advantage member on 30th March and was advised of such via email.

Interesting. You did nothing wrong except playing LEGAL games, but in a way they didnt like.

Actually you played excacly as suggest by Wizard of Odds
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Wizard said:
If you're not afraid of losing, a good way to get out of the wagering requirement is to bet aggressively early, either going for a big win or go bust trying. If you make the big win then grind out required play more conservatively.

So intelligent gamblers are now breaking the rules and have winnings confiscated.

Again a very poorly and unclear written TC.
Here are some help for the casinos. They can add one of the followings:
1) If you are not playing badly and trying deliberatly to waste you money, all winnings will void.
2) For welcome bonus, bet size must not exceed 10$ on any game.

Zoozie
 
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fortuneriver

Dormant account
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polis
In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account."

Webzcas said:
This unfortunately pretty much covers it. Sorry, but I agree with eCOGRA and 888 on this one :cool:

Actually, this excerpt covers EVERY possible thing. It just states that the casino have a right to call anything they want a bonus abuse and then confiscate the bonus. By the way, it doesn't say about confiscating one's winnings as in my case.
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
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Location
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I think that you would find that if you had restricted yourself to just playing at 888, you would not find yourself in the position you are in now. The fact that you played tactically the same at both properties owned and operated by 888, flagged you as a result as a bonus hunter, rightly or wrongly. As such the casino has implemented that clause.

Like I say, not what you want to hear, but this is how I am interpreting it.
 

fortuneriver

Dormant account
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Location
polis
Webzcas said:
I think that you would find that if you had restricted yourself to just playing at 888, you would not find yourself in the position you are in now. The fact that you played tactically the same at both properties owned and operated by 888, flagged you as a result as a bonus hunter, rightly or wrongly. As such the casino has implemented that clause.

Like I say, not what you want to hear, but this is how I am interpreting it.


First of all, why should i restrict myself from playing at both of their casinos? Where it says in their terms and coditions that i SHOULD play only at one of two? Now, where it says also that i SHOULD play different ways at both of those casinos so they don't consider me bonus hunter? Also, why should i know that these casinos belong to the same group and why should it bother me as a player?
So, about what implementation of clause are you talking? According to this clause thay can make whatever they want to whoever they want.
 

fortuneriver

Dormant account
Joined
May 7, 2006
Location
polis
Webzcas said:
FRiver. I am just saying how I am reading all of this. You don't have to agree with me. FWIW good luck in seeing if they will change their mind.

thank you for your opinion. And i just tried to explain you my view: the Casino on Net just steal my winnings using absolutely absurd idea of bonus abuse. The actual meaning of the words "bonus abuse" is " winning with the bonus". Abusing the bonus = making profit of bonus. I dont see any other rational explanation.
 

fortuneriver

Dormant account
Joined
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Location
polis
Section 9(ii):

"In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account

and here is my interpretaion. I only change the term bonus abuse with the term winning with the bonus. Look how well it fits.

In the event that the Company believes a user is winning with the bonus or attempting to win with a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through bonus or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account."
 

mucullus

Experienced Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Location
Germany
I think it is crystal clear that fortuneriver is a hardcore bonus hunter and a real nightmare for most online casinos. I have to admit that I don't feel much sympathy for his situation, BUT IMO 888 and eCOGRA made a poor decision. As always in such situations casinos should honor their own terms, pay the player (after playthrough) and then ban him.
If they don't like players taking advantage of their promos in a risk-free way they should tell the players and update their t&c's. It's so easy!
 

nafanny29

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 8, 2004
Location
London, England
It would help 888's case if when you leave their website or casino they didnt have a pop-up window saying "take me to reef club for a $200 bonus"

Kind of dilutes 888's "multiple bonus abuse" excuse a bit really.

As I see it I think that 888 are in the wrong. If they dont want this sort of play then they should have a bonus where no withdrawals are permitted until the wagering requirement is met or the players account hits zero. Simple really.
 

chuchu59

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Clear bonus abuse but nobody said this was disallowed. Imagine the player had won the $710 at CON first and lost the $200 at Reef later. Will he be able to cash out the $710? Definitely. The sequence of events should not be a deterrent in cashing out winnings. I would suggest that the player be paid the $710 minus the $200 at Reef because he was should not cash out and thus render it a no-risk bonus at a second casino.
 

paul02085

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 29, 2002
Location
USA
Grief Club is already infamous for pulling these stunts and they are part of CasinoOnNet i dont care what they say so this not really surprising.

I remember when Grief Club was robbing players we hoped CasinoOnNet would make them change. I guess it happened the other way around.
 

fortuneriver

Dormant account
Joined
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Location
polis
chuchu59 said:
Clear bonus abuse but nobody said this was disallowed. Imagine the player had won the $710 at CON first and lost the $200 at Reef later. Will he be able to cash out the $710? Definitely. The sequence of events should not be a deterrent in cashing out winnings. I would suggest that the player be paid the $710 minus the $200 at Reef because he was should not cash out and thus render it a no-risk bonus at a second casino.

My friend, what is a bonus abuse? I played by the RULES. Tell me where and when I violated the rules of the Casino On Net.
 

fortuneriver

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Joined
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Location
polis
mucullus said:
I think it is crystal clear that fortuneriver is a hardcore bonus hunter and a real nightmare for most online casinos. I have to admit that I don't feel much sympathy for his situation, BUT IMO 888 and eCOGRA made a poor decision. As always in such situations casinos should honor their own terms, pay the player (after playthrough) and then ban him.
If they don't like players taking advantage of their promos in a risk-free way they should tell the players and update their t&c's. It's so easy!


I suppose the only way to get your sympathy is to come to the casino and to play slots 3 times the necessary wagering requirements? How can somebody accuse me in the fact that i tried to win and not to lose? Is there any normal person in the universe who plays at the casino with the purpose to lose ? But overall, you are right- the casino must honor its own terms. That is what it all about.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
fortuneriver said:
27th March 2006, you played one round of Roulette on your Reef Club Casino account, betting $200, which was lost. You then cashed out your original $200 deposit which was paid according to the Cash-out Policy.

fortuneriver said:
What they call abuse in my case?
The fact that you only risked the bonus at Reef Club. I must say, I have some simpathy with Reef Club here.

Zoozie said:
Interesting. You did nothing wrong except playing LEGAL games, but in a way they didnt like.

Actually you played excacly as suggest by Wizard of Odds
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No, the Wizard recommends "If you're not afraid of losing, a good way to get out of the wagering requirement is to bet aggressively early, either going for a big win or go bust trying." Fortuneriver was not willing to risk his own money. I don't see the Wizard recommending anywhere that you withdraw your deposit once you have lost the bonus.
 

fortuneriver

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polis
GrandMaster said:
The fact that you only risked the bonus at Reef Club. I must say, I have some simpathy with Reef Club here.


No, the Wizard recommends "If you're not afraid of losing, a good way to get out of the wagering requirement is to bet aggressively early, either going for a big win or go bust trying." Fortuneriver was not willing to risk his own money. I don't see the Wizard recommending anywhere that you withdraw your deposit once you have lost the bonus.

But it is not about wizard recommending or not- it is about what casino lets you to do and what not. Reefclub as well as Casino on Net LETS YOU to withdraw your deposit after you played with the bonus. It is the same story as with Intercasino. Actually, at Intercasino , i was refused to receive any bonuses after the half a year i played in a no risk manner. But they NEVER refused to pay me my winnings. And if Reef club doesnt let me to withdraw my deposit without risking it- why would they let me to withdraw it and then confiscate three times more money from their sister casino? So,once again, in no way i violated Casino On Net's rules and that is why i state: Casino On net stole 500$ from me.
 
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mitch

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UK
Fortuneriver gets no sympathy from me.
It is players like him who have caused the casinos to tighten up their conditions to such an extent that I bet at very few casinos these days. (Well done for killing the golden goose!)

You now have to be a high roller to get good offers.

Having said that I have no time for 888.com. They were the first and only casino to specifically bar me from bonuses.

I had been with them for some time and was well up overall depositing for all their bonuses but also depositing far more money every month without bonuses and betting quite often at table limits.

I then eventually joined Reef Club. On my first ever visit I lost all my money including bonus, I immediately re-deposited a few thousand dollars and bet upto table max. I ended up well ahead and cashed out.

The following day Reef Club gave me a gift of $300 for my "style of play", the day after they gave me a substantial sum for coming second in their BJ wagering contest (which I didn't even realise was running whilst I was playing)

A couple of days later (Xmas day!) Casaver e- mailed me and said I would not receive any more bonuses from their casinos as they did not like my play and withdrawal pattern eg I won and withdrew my winnings.!!!

After going backwards and forwards with their reps and ECOGRA, I informed them I was banning them from ever receiving any more deposits from me (LOL) until they gave me recompense for their insulting behaviour.

Hell, my biggest ever single internet bet is 60 times their BJ table max!

They have sent me generic e-mails since, offering a few dollars but I ignore them because they are a crap operation and I am glad the Meister has rogued them.

Mitch
 

fortuneriver

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Location
polis
mitch said:
Fortuneriver gets no sympathy from me.
It is players like him who have caused the casinos to tighten up their conditions to such an extent that I bet at very few casinos these days. (Well done for killing the golden goose!)

You now have to be a high roller to get good offers.

Having said that I have no time for 888.com. They were the first and only casino to specifically bar me from bonuses.

I had been with them for some time and was well up overall depositing for all their bonuses but also depositing far more money every month without bonuses and betting quite often at table limits.

I then eventually joined Reef Club. On my first ever visit I lost all my money including bonus, I immediately re-deposited a few thousand dollars and bet upto table max. I ended up well ahead and cashed out.

The following day Reef Club gave me a gift of $300 for my "style of play", the day after they gave me a substantial sum for coming second in their BJ wagering contest (which I didn't even realise was running whilst I was playing)

A couple of days later (Xmas day!) Casaver e- mailed me and said I would not receive any more bonuses from their casinos as they did not like my play and withdrawal pattern eg I won and withdrew my winnings.!!!

After going backwards and forwards with their reps and ECOGRA, I informed them I was banning them from ever receiving any more deposits from me (LOL) until they gave me recompense for their insulting behaviour.

Hell, my biggest ever single internet bet is 60 times their BJ table max!

They have sent me generic e-mails since, offering a few dollars but I ignore them because they are a crap operation and I am glad the Meister has rogued them.

Mitch


Very sad story of yours...But it surely makes you feel better knowing that somebody else was refused his winnings. And, by the way, i don't need your sympathy.
 

fortuneriver

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polis
This is my last post in this topic.

I see that some users consider Casino on Net's decision as a fair one. Ok ,that is their right. My only point is that when somebody comes to play at the casino- the only thing that he is obliged to are terms and conditions. Unfortunately, this time it was not the case. I was playing exactly according to the rules i didn't violate it in ANY WAY. And still- i was refused my winnings. The term "bonus abuse" means nothing because you will not find any exact definition for this term at the Casino On Net website. So, from now on, anyone playing at Casino On Net may find himself robbed by the casino on the base of the unclear words- "bonus abuse". I wish you all not to find yourself in my situation and advise you not to play at this casino. Regarding my 500$ stolen from me by the richest casino in the world...what can i say...the rich just get richer :)

Sorry for my bad english and good luck!
 

chuchu59

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fortuneriver said:
My friend, what is a bonus abuse? I played by the RULES. Tell me where and when I violated the rules of the Casino On Net.


Mon ami,

Let's see if I have got this right. You purchased $200 at Reef and got a $200 bonus. You played $200 in one spin ,lost and cashed out the remaining $200. 0 risk and a profit of $400 if you win. All casinos will lose their shirts if all players did this. Bonuses are meant to cushion you against bad luck/streaks but frankly I do believe you did not take them in good faith by choosing to cash out immediately. You did not even bother to play anymore or anything else. So I still think this is a classic example of bonus abuse.
 

dickens1298

Dormant account
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May 30, 2004
Location
LA, California
It's interesting to note that at the end of all of this, Fortuneriver is no worse off than the moment before he began wagering at Reef Club and 888. He either cashed out or was refunded his deposit both times, so his net loss is zero, yet he still feels that there was money "stolen" from him.

Obviously, the casinos are there to make money for themselves. And obviously, they do so at the expense of us. The balance is a fine one - if the casinos are too successful, they end up killing their markets, and if the gamblers are too successful, then the casinos are no longer profitable to run.

Bonuses are designed to attract customers, and the casino "out" is that "catch-all" clause that allows the casino to bar any customer is suspects of bonus abuse. But the bottom line is that they're seeking to bar players who can win with no threat to their own bankrolls. It's pretty similar to a retail establishment posting a sign that says "WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE". We may think it's "unfair" or "not right", but the casinos are doing what they can to maintain profitability, and the bottom line is that Fortuneriver lost nary a penny when all was said and done.
 

Linus

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TX
They're not refusing service. They're accepting a wager, and refusing to pay when they lose.
 

Zoozie

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GrandMaster said:
I don't see the Wizard recommending anywhere that you withdraw your deposit once you have lost the bonus.

I agree with that one, but I misunderstood that he was able to withdraw after just wagering 200$. Normally there is a wagering requirement so withdrawal is not possible.

I thought he was gambling the full bonus+deposit on the roulette. (this is the 'normal' way to bonus whore, but TC should still be more clear)

In this case I gotta change my mind then. No sympaty for the player.

Zoozie
 

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