Bypassed Gamstop, can I be refunded etc?

[joebloggs]

What's the ukgc guidelines around allowing deposits before a casino has verified you? I joined up with a casino today I had no recollection of joining, submitted my documents as I always do on live chat and to my surprise was able to deposit. Happy days I thought, they've verified my quickly. Lost about £50 so not life changing sums of money, but I then got an email tonight saying I've got another account that was excluded (which I used to do back in the day when I'd had enough of a casino). I could have deposited thousands though in a day! I thought all casinos had to verify you first to prevent this happening? Should they be returning my deposit? I'm not bothered about the money per say, just the principal of it. Have to add they are a well established sportsbook who previously had their license suspended for major fraud and other issues...I discovered this afterwards I should add.
Thanks all!

I’m going back to the original question as I am really trying to figure out how it goes.. I have looked at my previous gambling issues with most if not all the casinos you might know? I have been registered on GameStop off then on and so on and my gambling is like £50-£100 deposits every few minutes at times so quite alarming you might agree especially when you add in I’ve not always been verified or asked for id or have DOB saying 88 when it is 86 etc.. do you think that I should try and get some money back as it would be a ridiculous amount of money to get back?! I have mental health problems too as you can probably tell and I have to add I’m still betting on some well known sites and I’m still currently on GameStop and my credit score is not worth mentioning and I have fraud markers on my file too! Im uk also.

 

[dunover]

Yes, if you feel the need to manouver around Gamstop using different details then as you say you have serious gambling issues. As for refunds, no, because it's not a case of them not spotting your genuine Gamstop info.

It's a pointless exercise anyway as if doing this at a legitmate UK site you would be checked when winning anything substantial and fall short, so at best being refunded deposits and thus not winning anything. If you are playing at unlicensed scam sites, you likely get neither winnings nor deposits back.

So that says to me, really don't do it.

 

[jasonuk]

It sounds like you need to seek help - on the personal side there is an

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, on the technical side there are more aggressive tools like BetBlocker.

I have been registered on GameStop off then on and so on and my gambling is like £50-£100 deposits every few minutes at times so quite alarming you might agree especially when you add in I’ve not always been verified or asked for id or have DOB saying 88 when it is 86 etc..

So this would be considered an attempt to evade GAMSTOP. The terms and conditions are pretty brutal on this now-a-days, not only can winnings be voided, but your deposits can be forfeit too.

do you think that I should try and get some money back as it would be a ridiculous amount of money to get back?!
I have mental health problems too as you can probably tell and I have to add I’m still betting on some well known sites and I’m still currently on GameStop and my credit score is not worth mentioning and I have fraud markers on my file too! Im uk also.

Given how much self-exclusion fraud there has been in recent years, even if your case was legitimate (used correct details etc) you might struggle to get your money back.

Once the site asks you for identification, then it'll be game over because you can't be verified - that'll be true whether it's a UKGC site or not.

However, if the "mistakes" are pre-meditated (which given you haven't corrected them, it sounds like they could be) then it would be considered somewhere between evasion and fraud. So not only do you not have a leg to stand on, but if an operator group can piece the puzzle together (e.g. you've done it on multiple sites in their group) then you may open yourself up to legal repercussions.

If you are willing to commit fraud - seek help. It has gone too far...

 

[GourdFollower]

Hello @joebloggs

Public discussions about circumventing GAMSTOP are not suitable topics for our forum as this is aiding and abetting problem gamblers putting themselves in harms way.

Regards,
GourdFollower
PAB Manager

 

[justdoit]

*snip*

 

[maxd]

Sorry but please don’t advertise anything related to circumventing Gamstop, not cool.

- Max

 

[mulven]

Unfortunately the only time you get to double dip (refund losing deposits) is when there is operator malfeasance. I've seen quite a lot of situations where Casinos operate improperly in the Dutch Market and have been made to do pay back players who shouldn't have been able to play there. And obviously there'll be situations where they have spat in the face of responsible gaming and should rightfully refund deposits.

However, In your case the casino met their requirements for responsible gaming and you were the one who made efforts to circumvent them and as a result are responsible for these losses

 

[jasonuk]

I've seen quite a lot of situations where Casinos operate improperly in the Dutch Market and have been made to do pay back players who shouldn't have been able to play there.

For clarity, that situation is a lot more nuanced than that - in many cases it's not the operators behaving improperly, but the KSA - who having spent two decades fighting (and losing) in EU courts finally threw in the towel and opened up the market (where they get to set the rules - including attempting to rewrite history). Although perhaps not surprisingly, they already appear to be strangling said market to return to their de facto monopoly.

 

[mulven]

For clarity, that situation is a lot more nuanced than that - in many cases it's not the operators behaving improperly, but the KSA - who having spent two decades fighting (and losing) in EU courts finally threw in the towel and opened up the market (where they get to set the rules - including attempting to rewrite history). Although perhaps not surprisingly, they already appear to be strangling said market to return to their de facto monopoly.

Ah, very interesting I never looked past the surface level of the situations (surface level being a ton of dutch people crying about trying to get deposits they lost fairly at non-rogue casinos paid back) From the sound of it, it seemed as though they were legally bound to do so for some reason. In the case of Casbit, who appear to have re-incorporated as luckywayz limited with slightly renamed versions of their old websites launched, justbit>joebit, it appears they made agreements with these dutch players and were shafting them with delays and possibly the above re-incorporation to get out of paying them. Not often I found myself siding with a casino but I can't deny I enjoyed seeing them play their chess moves for these have my cake and eat it too dutch players. I view it as those players using the dutch situation as a loophole to get losses back and the casino group using the legal/delay/financial loopholes they have on hand to fight back. Casbit group have been nothing but exemplary in how they've conducted themselves with me. Whilst they aren't doing the withdrawals instantly or in a few minutes/hours like some sites, they reliably pay after about 48h, probably quicker if i played in crypto, so I enjoyed seeing them appear to be victorious.

I am curious since you are well acquainted with the situation, what are the KSA using to strong arm these groups as i've seen the same situation happen across quite a few companies that accepted dutch players. Some of these companies are indeed paying the players so I was wondering what legal grounds forced them to do so?

Also just want to mention I've been lurking the forums the last month or two and seen plenty of your contributions and have to say your breadth of knowledge and rational responses to idiots on here have been refreshing. Much nicer to read through than the idiots who think because they have ten losing sessions that a casino or slot provider is rigged. Not sure if you are an advantage gambler or sharp but you definitely have a lot of experience and knowledge based on the replies i've seen so wouldn't be surprised if you did this for a living like I may or may not do.

 

[jasonuk]

Ah, very interesting I never looked past the surface level of the situations (surface level being a ton of dutch people crying about trying to get deposits they lost fairly at non-rogue casinos paid back) From the sound of it, it seemed as though they were legally bound to do so for some reason.

We did a deep dive on this last year, so that thread will be of interest - Getting money back from PokerStars because it was illegal? - Casinomeister Forum

I am curious since you are well acquainted with the situation, what are the KSA using to strong arm these groups as i've seen the same situation happen across quite a few companies that accepted dutch players. Some of these companies are indeed paying the players so I was wondering what legal grounds forced them to do so?

As far as we know there isn't one - the KSA has a lengthy list of losses in EU courts over the past two decades.

What they do have is leverage - so a group like Kindred will dance to the KSA's tune because they wanted an NL license, but ignore the NGA's tune (Norway) because they're offering nothing in return and know the EU law is on their side.

 

[mulven]

What they do have is leverage - so a group like Kindred will dance to the KSA's tune because they wanted an NL license, but ignore the NGA's tune (Norway) because they're offering nothing in return and know the EU law is on their side.

Just finished reading through that thread. As you said, it indeed is just that the EU law is clear and in favour of the gaming companies and that they only kowtow to the KSA in an attempt to play nice in hopes of gaining a valuable licence, as illustrated by your very neat unibet example. And then as the legal precedent is on their side, display inaction to the NGA. I haven't looked into this at all but I'm going to guess that norway has a state monopoly on iGaming and thats why there is no advantage to doing what they say when you are legally in the clear.