Getting money back from PokerStars because it was illegal?

[bessola]

Hi, this is a question for players from the Netherlands, but maybe also other countries where PokerStars offered their services illegally for years.

I always been very curious if anyone ever did a serious effort to get their lost money back from Pokerstars (casino) from the period that PokerStars was active illegally on the Dutch market (that is at least since 2008 until Oct 1st 2021).

To explain in short: The Dutch gambling law is very clear that online casinos need a license for the Netherlands. Pokerstars never had a license (and still does not), but Pokerstars did offer their games to Dutch players for many years, even communicating in Dutch language. In September 2019 the Dutch Gambling Authority (KSA) gave them a fine of €400,000 for this crime (see here:

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)

So although the Dutch law and KSA give clear proof that it was a crime of PokerStars, when I asked PokerStars about this (nicely) the answer of the legal department of Flutter International was: "We understand that you believe that the services we provided in the Netherlands are and were prohibited, however, TSG Interactive Gaming Europe Limited is based in the EU and holds a valid gambling license issued by the Malta Gaming Authority. Whilst at present residents in the Netherlands are no longer able to access our products the services previously offered by TSG within the Netherlands were offered on the basis of this EU license and the freedom of services guaranteed by EU law. In the circumstances we are unfortunately unable to offer a refund of your deposits."

Does anyone have more information about this 'legal contradiction' between EU laws and Dutch laws? Is there any case law on this?
Is there any legal ground for players to demand their money back (all deposits minus withdrawals) because the games were offered illegal?

Thank you!

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[Schind]

You may need a very good lawyer, a lot of money and plenty of patience.
Regarding the 'legal contradiction', Pokerstars' line "the services previously offered by TSG within the Netherlands were offered on the basis of this EU license and the freedom of services guaranteed by EU law." isn't as straightforward as they make out.

There was a case in 2010. Carmen Media Group v Land Schleswig-Holstein and Innenminister des Landes Schleswig-Holstein.
It's not exactly the same as the Dutch scenario in that Carmen Media were licensed in Gibraltar and applied for a licence to operate in Germany but were refused, but the court does give their interpretation on Article 49 (freedom to provide services) in regard to gambling.
Short answer - it depends.

Quote - "On a proper interpretation of Article 49 EC, national legislation prohibiting the organisation and intermediation of games of chance on the internet for the purposes of preventing the squandering of money on gambling, combating addiction to the latter and protecting young persons may, in principle, be regarded as suitable for pursuing such legitimate objectives, even if the offer of such games remains authorised through more traditional channels."

Taken from the very long answer, including references to other similar cases, here -

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[Triple A]

Did they pay you out fairly and without hiccups when you won big?

 

[deleted20230517]

Mweh. Ive seen casino's once the KSA stepped in, retract the iDEAL option for first time depositters, but start showing it after they done their first deposit. Its to avoid legal issues with KSA obviously and alot of casino's are doing this.

I'm not sure if above could be even possible. On the other hand i cheated myself into a dutch casino while playing from abroad. The system is quite weak. But i would not play at Dutch casino's for having the lack of the following:

- Bet caps
- No option to bonus buys
- No auto play

I mean come'on. I heard players from the UK complain about their conditions but this is the same. Half of the online market and regulations is getting nuts or all the fun taken out of it. Yes it has a addictive nature but only spend what you can afford.



Reminds me of above case. A known gambling addict attempting to recoup his 400k losses a decade ago. Failed.

 

[Triple A]

Mweh. Ive seen casino's once the KSA stepped in, retract the iDEAL option for first time depositters, but start showing it after they done their first deposit. Its to avoid legal issues with KSA obviously and alot of casino's are doing this.

I'm not sure if above could be even possible. On the other hand i cheated myself into a dutch casino while playing from abroad. The system is quite weak. But i would not play at Dutch casino's for having the lack of the following:

- Bet caps
- No option to bonus buys
- No auto play

I mean come'on. I heard players from the UK complain about their conditions but this is the same. Half of the online market and regulations is getting nuts or all the fun taken out of it. Yes it has a addictive nature but only spend what you can afford.



Reminds me of above case. A known gambling addict attempting to recoup his 400k losses a decade ago. Failed.

Easy to say gamble only what you can afford, but it's not that easy for everyone. That's where the responsible gambling tools like wager limit, deposit limit and loss limit come in. I'm the type of person who has the urge to gamble while actually deep down I do not wanna gamble but that's why I use wager limits when I win a nice amount. To keep myself safe till the casino processes my withdrawal. Because when the money is still on my casino account without that it might go wrong. The wager limit keeps me to my senses.

 

[deleted20230517]

It's all about discipline my friend.

 

[L&L-Jan]

Would you feel comfortable never playing at stars again after their poker client and casino becomes available in the Netherlands again?

 

[bessola]

You may need a very good lawyer, a lot of money and plenty of patience.

That's for sure :-D

Thanks for the case law link!

 

[bessola]

Would you feel comfortable never playing at stars again after their poker client and casino becomes available in the Netherlands again?

So you're employer of the month at PokerStars now? ;-) Just kidding...

I've told them I'm happy to play their games if it's legal.
You probably mean that if I complain to them about their past crimes, they will block me forever when they're back on the Dutch market? :-D They probably will, and that would be a pity, but so be it.

 

[bessola]

Mweh. Ive seen casino's once the KSA stepped in, retract the iDEAL option for first time depositters, but start showing it after they done their first deposit. Its to avoid legal issues with KSA obviously and alot of casino's are doing this.

I'm not sure if above could be even possible. On the other hand i cheated myself into a dutch casino while playing from abroad. The system is quite weak. But i would not play at Dutch casino's for having the lack of the following:

- Bet caps
- No option to bonus buys
- No auto play

I mean come'on. I heard players from the UK complain about their conditions but this is the same. Half of the online market and regulations is getting nuts or all the fun taken out of it. Yes it has a addictive nature but only spend what you can afford.



Reminds me of above case. A known gambling addict attempting to recoup his 400k losses a decade ago. Failed.

Sure as a player you can still play from abroad using VPN.
Sure as a player you can still use autoplay with any auto-mouse-click-tool
And much more. If you want to break the rules. But I don't want to. I want to play legal and fair.

This topic is about NOT breaking the rules and laws, and about a very big and rich company getting away with breaking the law, probably because of lack of ethics and lack of law enforcement.

 

[Schind]

That's for sure :-D

Thanks for the case law link!

Quick note if you're going to use the info in any further correspondence with PokerStars. I believe what was Article 49 at the time is now Article 56 of the TFEU.

 

[deleted20230517]

Sure as a player you can still play from abroad using VPN.
Sure as a player you can still use autoplay with any auto-mouse-click-tool
And much more. If you want to break the rules. But I don't want to. I want to play legal and fair.

This topic is about NOT breaking the rules and laws, and about a very big and rich company getting away with breaking the law, probably because of lack of ethics and lack of law enforcement.

This is a money business. It's all about making money. You gamble with the intention to make money too, no? So yeah. Thats a short answer. Moral etics or not, they give a rats ass and if it was'nt for the KSA they would open their doors wide open to anyone raking in deposits.

 

[bessola]

This is a money business. It's all about making money. You gamble with the intention to make money too, no? So yeah. Thats a short answer. Moral etics or not, they give a rats ass and if it was'nt for the KSA they would open their doors wide open to anyone raking in deposits.

That's no reason or excuse to commit crimes.

and no, I gamble for fun, I'm not that naive to think I can make money from it.

 

[bessola]

It's all about discipline my friend.

Very offensive to your fellow gamblers to say you 'just need discipline'. There's enough scientific research and literature about addiction being a disease, which means people cannot control discipline themselves. There's a very good reason for RG policies.

 

[Triple A]

Very offensive to your fellow gamblers to say you 'just need discipline'. There's enough scientific research and literature about addiction being a disease, which means people cannot control discipline themselves. There's a very good reason for RG policies.

Jeroen is the gambler all problem gamblers strife to be.

 

[L&L-Jan]

I'm with Jeroen in a way and not because I'm an operator.

You as a player during an era where online gambling was offered in the Netherlands. You made the decision to agree to generic terms and conditions of a service provider. The service provider in this event is an online casino. During your customers journey you deposited, played and withdrew funds that were paid out accordingly (most of the time, def if you play at Stars, Party etc).

Responsible Gaming starts with you as the player, each deposit, each bet, each withdrawal is your responsibility. Why if one dude believes he sees a flaw in the law, try to get your money back?

There are hundreds of outlets over my past 10 years of online gambling where I technically could claim losses back. But I am not going to, because I made the decision to deposit, play and lose funds.

Also, if you are in profit on the casino, would you return your profits? Pretty sure not.

 

[Triple A]

I'm with Jeroen in a way and not because I'm an operator.

You as a player during an era where online gambling was offered in the Netherlands. You made the decision to agree to generic terms and conditions of a service provider. The service provider in this event is an online casino. During your customers journey you deposited, played and withdrew funds that were paid out accordingly (most of the time, def if you play at Stars, Party etc).

Responsible Gaming starts with you as the player, each deposit, each bet, each withdrawal is your responsibility. Why if one dude believes he sees a flaw in the law, try to get your money back?

There are hundreds of outlets over my past 10 years of online gambling where I technically could claim losses back. But I am not going to, because I made the decision to deposit, play and lose funds.

Also, if you are in profit on the casino, would you return your profits? Pretty sure not.

That's why I asked him if they always paid out fairly. If the answer is yes then they shouldn't get punished. That means it's a honest casino. And ofcourse if they also had working RG tools.

 

[Schind]

That means it's a honest casino.

They're clearly not an honest casino. By saying they have a right to operate in any EU state they're lying. And they know they're lying as, as far as I'm aware, they didn't appeal the fine they received from the KSA.
If they did appeal because they genuinely thought they were in the right then I'll change my opinion of them.

 

[Triple A]

They're clearly not an honest casino. By saying they have a right to operate in any EU state they're lying. And they know they're lying as, as far as I'm aware, they didn't appeal the fine they received from the KSA.
If they did appeal because they genuinely thought they were in the right then I'll change my opinion of them.

For me an honest casino is one that pays out your winnings without stalling and has fair RG tools to protect players. Thats why i asked him if the casino was like that.

 

[deleted20230517]

Jeroen is the gambler all problem gamblers strife to be.

Ok so hear me out,

I win 5k. I hit withdrawl. Now it's so tempting to cancel and continue, right?

I can choose to take a walk, jack myself off, go watch a movie, and proceed to 48 hours of waiting. I'm disciplined in this case because i'm resisting the urge.

If i dont do it, and i fold because of the "tempting" shit to cancel and still continue, i'm lacking discipline, dont i?

There's still people who enjoy playing, and yeah even i was tempted many times, but ive learned that the good old discipline is a good way to learn. Start small. Go in with a Double or Nothing mentality. You doubled your money? Great! Hit withdrawl, and dont touch it untill it's processed to your account. It's yours now.

You have a issue with gambling in general? Unable to control or stop yourself? Well, seek help. I'm from a generation in where discipline is something very valuable and ive learned that at quite young age. It is not really a problem for me that when i say no it's no. And no matter how strong the urge to that might be, i still stay solid to my point.

That is the big difference in between a experienced gambler or a problem gambler.

There's songs made about this subject:



I suggest you listen to it.

 

[deleted20230517]

Very offensive to your fellow gamblers to say you 'just need discipline'. There's enough scientific research and literature about addiction being a disease, which means people cannot control discipline themselves. There's a very good reason for RG policies.

Well i'm sorry if you have problems with gambling you shoud'nt be gambling in the first place, dont you?

If you keep suckering for the obvious then your never going to get out of it. Its you either go in there with a mission, or step out, for good. A gambling disease will progress over time the longer you battle or have to deal with it. If you have access to such tools to keep it in check, use them.

That urge to gambling will be there till the day you hit your grave. If it's the hit you seek there's a zillion other ways to get those dopamine hits. Trust me. We humans never needed gambling. Gambling needs us.

I knew people who gone so far to have their marriage inside a casino. I mean how charming it may sound, having your wedding ceremy done in a casino, it says something about how deeply rooted that was for those individuals.

A decade later i had a drink with him in the casino. He told me he could never touch it ever again, and just enjoyed the show. That is the only healthy way out.

An alcoholic is'nt told to "socially drink" either... It's a hardcore stop and never touch it again approach.

A heroine addict yields the same fate. You cant do nor touch it anymore if it tears your life apart. Simple as that!

The same goes up for gambling. If it is destroying you then stop gambling. Seek alternative pleasures, fixes or whatever floats your boat. Its each and everyone for their own.

But with all the medical knowledge, i think there should be pills that can supress the urge to gamble or the thrill to lose everything. Why is'nt this researched ?

 

[PAlGeMi]

It seems dishonest to me, had you won then, would you refund them because they operate without a license?

 

[bessola]

They're clearly not an honest casino. By saying they have a right to operate in any EU state they're lying. And they know they're lying as, as far as I'm aware, they didn't appeal the fine they received from the KSA.
If they did appeal because they genuinely thought they were in the right then I'll change my opinion of them.

Yes, they did appeal, but the appeal was rejected. See here:

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Then in the end they did pay the fine to KSA.
If they didn't it would have be explicitly mentioned. Source:

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[bessola]

For me an honest casino is one that pays out your winnings without stalling and has fair RG tools to protect players. Thats why i asked him if the casino was like that.

That's not relevant @Triple A . It's about the fact they didn't have a license and were operating illegal. Therefore they also didn't have any RG tools complying with the law.

 

[bessola]

I'm with Jeroen in a way and not because I'm an operator.

You as a player during an era where online gambling was offered in the Netherlands. You made the decision to agree to generic terms and conditions of a service provider. The service provider in this event is an online casino. During your customers journey you deposited, played and withdrew funds that were paid out accordingly (most of the time, def if you play at Stars, Party etc).

Responsible Gaming starts with you as the player, each deposit, each bet, each withdrawal is your responsibility. Why if one dude believes he sees a flaw in the law, try to get your money back?

There are hundreds of outlets over my past 10 years of online gambling where I technically could claim losses back. But I am not going to, because I made the decision to deposit, play and lose funds.

Also, if you are in profit on the casino, would you return your profits? Pretty sure not.

Dutch players agreed to terms and conditions that were offered under false pretenses. They pretended they offered legal services (eg. accepting Dutch players, offering iDEAL deposit method, communicating in Dutch language), which were actually illegal.

I agree with you that RG is also the responsibility of the players itself, but that's really not the topic of this thread. This is purely about not having a license, therefore scamming players, and as a provider taking the responsibility to acknowledge and rectify this.

Don't forget that when they stopped offering their services for Dutch players in 2021 (because they want a license so had to behave), they put literally on their website they did this "to comply with regulators". Well, if they really want to comply with regulators they should grant my request. Also, I'm not asking for any compensation money, I just asked for the money back that they took illegaly, nothing more.