Brexit - whats the difference.....

[thr0b]

The Russia Report.

"There have been widespread allegations that

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sought to influence voters in the 2016 referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU: studies have pointed to the preponderance of pro-Brexit or anti-EU stories on RT and Sputnik, and the use of ‘bots’ and ‘trolls’, as evidence. The actual impact of such attempts on the result itself would be difficult – if not impossible – to prove. However what is clear is that the government was slow to recognise the existence of the threat – only understanding it after the ‘hack and leak’ operation against the Democratic National Committee, when it should have been seen as early as 2014. As a result the government did not take action to protect the UK’s process in 2016. The committee has not been provided with any post-referendum assessment - in stark contrast to the US response to reports of interference in the 2016 presidential election. In our view there must be an analogous assessment of Russian interference in the EU referendum"


Or to put it another way; the government knew that the Brexit referendum had probably been interfered with, but did nothing to look into it, nor did they use any of the findings they should have found to protect future elections and referendums.

They got the result they wanted, so they didn't care if it was legitimate.

And there you have it. Tories don't care how they win, as long as they win.

 

[goatwack]

I thought most of the 'Elites' and Tory rabble favoured Remain, and fought tooth-and-nail to convince the Great Unwashed, i.e the stupid racists that didn't know what they were doing?

So if our overlords 'knew' about it and it went against their interests then they really shot themselves in the foot there, haven't they

Seems we have more history revision here. But that's fine, 'tis the season for it!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This might come as a bit of a shock, but Johnson was lying his ass off about having an 'oven ready' deal with the EU.

(I mean, this was pointed out at the time by many folks, but they were dismissed as being 'gloomy Remoaners'.)

 

[Drekken]

Please can someone tell me what the difference is between a permanent customs union, which JC is telling Labour MP's to support, and remaining in the EU?
My limited knowledge tells me that if you are in the customs union you cant negotiate your own trade deals, you must have freedom of movement for people and goods, but you can't have a say in how the EU is run. Is this not a wee bit daft since 52% of the voters said they wanted to leave the EU? I know im not the brightest light in the room, but surely this is the worst possible scenario for leavers and remainers?

U.K. would be able to restrict the movement of people at its border.

 

[thr0b]

The UK has always had full control of its borders. We've just chosen to take a more relaxed approach than other EU countries because immigration is good for the economy and the country as a whole.

 

[dunover]

Hauwei is the 1668/JAZ of the telecoms industry. Good riddance. Like letting Jimmy Savile run a chain of after school clubs.

 

[goatwack]

As much as 'freedom of movement' benefited transition and eg wanting to acquire equal status wherever one lay their hat, it was always prone to abuse.

I'm fairly certain it wasn't intended for work tourism where people plunder the local economy to send it to their families, and then leave the debris behind. Seen that happen rather a lot, and that's before we get into NHS tourists.

As for Immigration policies, relaxed is the word! Though I'd say 'open door' would be more accurate, especially with our smiley friend Tony at the helm

 

[goatwack]

Grrrreat

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm sure we were told this would be the easiest trade deal in history.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hmmmm.

It's almost as if there was lying and cheating involved.

 

[dunover]

Hmmmm.

It's almost as if there was lying and cheating involved.

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Buy GOLD bullion mate, that's what I've been doing. VAT free, tax-free on the first 11k of profits too. Unless you're like those lot and have a tax haven to move to, like Monaco, Malta or the IoM lol....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Buy GOLD bullion mate, that's what I've been doing. VAT free, tax-free on the first 11k of profits too. Unless you're like those lot and have a tax haven to move to, like Monaco, Malta or the IoM lol....

In fairness I moved here in 1996, loooooooong before any of these Brexit shenanigans kicked off

(And I certainly didn't move here to hide my money, as I had absolutely fuck all when I moved over and my first couple of jobs here were in pubs/restaurants doing bar/kitchen work!)

 

[goatwack]

To be fair to Fox, he did say 'one of'

 

[thr0b]

Never be fair to disgraced MP Liam Fox.

 

[goatwack]

I'm actually buying up Pound Sterling as of now. Wayyy more fun than Penny Shares

 

[dunover]

I'm actually buying up Pound Sterling as of now. Wayyy more fun than Penny Shares

Put it this way, the Royal Mint has run out of Gold bars except the 400-oz one at £543k which is slightly out of my price range. 10g, 20g, 50g, 100g, 500g etc. are all out of stock. I had to go somewhere else to get the 100g bars which are Swiss and no, not fucking Toblerones before the jokes come in...
I bought some £100 coins (1oz .999 gold) instead.

 

[goatwack]

Just seeing the excerpts of Bojo in bonnie Scotland, he looks without a care in the world



Disappointed no one set up a staged gaffe, like him slapping someone with a haddock or driving a Brexit boat through a wall

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Another fine, albeit very sobering analysis from the excellent Chris Grey, who has been calling every single aspect of this Brexit shitshow pretty much spot on for the last four years.

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----------------------

The fundamental conundrum, obviously, is that the only way of showing serious preparedness for no deal is to also admit the massive dislocations that it would cause and, therefore, the reasons why it would be a terrible course of action. That continues to apply now, but with a new twist, which is that many of these dislocations also have to be admitted in order to prepare for any deal which may be done. Even in this best case scenario there’s simply no good news – just as the Brexiters were warned all along – so the only way to square the circle is to foreground all the guff about sovereignty and leave it for the still largely unsuspecting public to grub around for the details of just how much more difficult their lives are about to become.

--------------------

The whole Project Fear dismissal would have been unnecessary. The message would simply have been – yes, there are costs but they are worth it as a price to pay for sovereignty. But such a message would never have won them the Referendum. Instead, the claim had to be that, yes, sovereignty would be regained (hence, ‘taking back control’) but that it would be costless or, even, financially advantageous (hence, ‘£350 Million a week’). It’s only since winning that the ‘but it was never about money’ line has been spun – a line which would only have worked with a minority of voters had it been attempted at the time.

----------------------

So the ‘New Start’ campaign has to be understood as the lineal descendent of Vote Leave campaign. What it conceals is the massive unpreparedness of both businesses and government – worsened by coronavirus – as outlined in

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. Almost daily new problems emerge or re-emerge, this week ranging from the

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of the sort needed by non-members of the EU to ship goods (much less trivial than it sounds) through to what will happen to the

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(even more serious than it sounds). These were both things that have been long-warned about (see

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and

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) yet no, or insufficient, preparations have been made.

But even if all the necessary preparations had been or come to be made for this ‘new start’ what they would be preparation for is invariably something unpleasant. It is to be hoped that the sense of sovereignty will be satisfying, because according to the government website every practical impact of Brexit is going to be negative. There is not one single thing listed which will make anyone’s life easier or better.

 

[Playford7]

Another fine, albeit very sobering analysis from the excellent Chris Grey, who has been calling every single aspect of this Brexit shitshow pretty much spot on for the last four years.

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----------------------

The fundamental conundrum, obviously, is that the only way of showing serious preparedness for no deal is to also admit the massive dislocations that it would cause and, therefore, the reasons why it would be a terrible course of action. That continues to apply now, but with a new twist, which is that many of these dislocations also have to be admitted in order to prepare for any deal which may be done. Even in this best case scenario there’s simply no good news – just as the Brexiters were warned all along – so the only way to square the circle is to foreground all the guff about sovereignty and leave it for the still largely unsuspecting public to grub around for the details of just how much more difficult their lives are about to become.

--------------------

The whole Project Fear dismissal would have been unnecessary. The message would simply have been – yes, there are costs but they are worth it as a price to pay for sovereignty. But such a message would never have won them the Referendum. Instead, the claim had to be that, yes, sovereignty would be regained (hence, ‘taking back control’) but that it would be costless or, even, financially advantageous (hence, ‘£350 Million a week’). It’s only since winning that the ‘but it was never about money’ line has been spun – a line which would only have worked with a minority of voters had it been attempted at the time.

----------------------

So the ‘New Start’ campaign has to be understood as the lineal descendent of Vote Leave campaign. What it conceals is the massive unpreparedness of both businesses and government – worsened by coronavirus – as outlined in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Almost daily new problems emerge or re-emerge, this week ranging from the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

of the sort needed by non-members of the EU to ship goods (much less trivial than it sounds) through to what will happen to the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(even more serious than it sounds). These were both things that have been long-warned about (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

and

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) yet no, or insufficient, preparations have been made.

But even if all the necessary preparations had been or come to be made for this ‘new start’ what they would be preparation for is invariably something unpleasant. It is to be hoped that the sense of sovereignty will be satisfying, because according to the government website every practical impact of Brexit is going to be negative. There is not one single thing listed which will make anyone’s life easier or better.

Your such a negative nelly.
Don’t you worry yourself and get all upset, no deal will be majestic.

 

[mack341]

Another fine, albeit very sobering analysis from the excellent Chris Grey, who has been calling every single aspect of this Brexit shitshow pretty much spot on for the last four years.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

----------------------

The fundamental conundrum, obviously, is that the only way of showing serious preparedness for no deal is to also admit the massive dislocations that it would cause and, therefore, the reasons why it would be a terrible course of action. That continues to apply now, but with a new twist, which is that many of these dislocations also have to be admitted in order to prepare for any deal which may be done. Even in this best case scenario there’s simply no good news – just as the Brexiters were warned all along – so the only way to square the circle is to foreground all the guff about sovereignty and leave it for the still largely unsuspecting public to grub around for the details of just how much more difficult their lives are about to become.

--------------------

The whole Project Fear dismissal would have been unnecessary. The message would simply have been – yes, there are costs but they are worth it as a price to pay for sovereignty. But such a message would never have won them the Referendum. Instead, the claim had to be that, yes, sovereignty would be regained (hence, ‘taking back control’) but that it would be costless or, even, financially advantageous (hence, ‘£350 Million a week’). It’s only since winning that the ‘but it was never about money’ line has been spun – a line which would only have worked with a minority of voters had it been attempted at the time.

----------------------

So the ‘New Start’ campaign has to be understood as the lineal descendent of Vote Leave campaign. What it conceals is the massive unpreparedness of both businesses and government – worsened by coronavirus – as outlined in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Almost daily new problems emerge or re-emerge, this week ranging from the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

of the sort needed by non-members of the EU to ship goods (much less trivial than it sounds) through to what will happen to the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(even more serious than it sounds). These were both things that have been long-warned about (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

and

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) yet no, or insufficient, preparations have been made.

But even if all the necessary preparations had been or come to be made for this ‘new start’ what they would be preparation for is invariably something unpleasant. It is to be hoped that the sense of sovereignty will be satisfying, because according to the government website every practical impact of Brexit is going to be negative. There is not one single thing listed which will make anyone’s life easier or better.

To my mind brexiteers didn't really need a campaign to convince them of anything, just as the remainers largely didn't either. This is a gut instinct decision for most, what is right and wrong, the principle of following orders from unelected technocrats [ with the connivance of you're own govt ] is unappealing to many. Even if our democracy is a bit of a pretence most of the time, we don't want to bolt onto that another body of powerful officials based in brussels, uninterested in what we think.

On the basis of the arguments chris grey is making, he must believe no country should or would ever have a desire to leave the EU?

It seems we cannot get a free trade deal unless we agree to continue to be a member in all but name. [i.e carry on following the EU's edicts]. I can't see how any democratic country would sign up to that because who knows what the future brings and how much flexibility is needed to do well as a country.

More and more red tape has consequences and increases business costs in compliance, thus squeeezing out any new smaller firms, reducing competition and increasing crony capitalism.

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It is estimated that there are over 25,000 lobbyists working in the European quarter, most of whom in the service of corporations and their lobby groups. And their efforts to influence the regulations and laws that affect a union of more than 510 million people do not come cheaply. Conservative estimates suggest that over €1.5 billion is spent every year on lobbying targets like the European Commission, the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, and Brussels offices of national governments.

^So the EU structure saves multinational big business the trouble of having to lobby in every individual country, they can focus efforts in brussels and achieve europe wide results.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yet another one of those depressing, inevitable, and predicted brickbats to the face of British industry thanks to Brexit, where a sector faces huge new costs and bureaucracy just to emulate what we already get for free by being an EU member.

Some businesses will be able to absorb the extra costs (although that will be reflected in increased prices), some will relocate to a country in the EU, some will simply give up or go under.

It's just an endless procession of downsides. No upsides. No benefits. Nothing getting better.

And time and time again, we end up simply trying to replicate what the EU have anyway, because we need to maintain so many equivalences and standards to be able to continue to do business with them.



“Our EU competitors are licking their lips, and that is deeply frustrating,” Ms Loughran said of the mounting costs. “We’ve spent 30 years growing from nothing, now all these barriers are being forced upon us. “It is enormously wasteful and uncompetitive for UK companies like us to have to spend time, money and resources to repeat all of these registrations for no additional benefit to anyone.”

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[ChopleyIOM]

Probably shouldn't have voted for the Withdrawal Agreement earlier this year then, eh?

Anyone else think he probably didn't even read it?

It's almost as if, and I'm just going to throw this out there, that the entire Brexit cohort had no earthly fucking idea of how they were actually going to do any of this, once they got past the tub-thumping anti-EU rhetoric.



And before anyone suggests that the WA was a 'Theresa May Remainer' agreement, here's a picture of who signed it.



Seriously folks, never, ever, listen to anything that this cabal of cheats, liars, chancers, incompetents and frauds have to say ever again.

 

[Sidmanaman73]

Ian Duncan Smith. The Mondeo Man. Chris Grayling wants to be this inept when he grows up....

 

[thr0b]

And of course, the agreement signed by Boris was by several metrics WORSE than the agreement May had negotiated. Bunch of twats, the Tories. Self-serving twats. Many of whom have conspicuously taken up EU citizenship where applicable, while at the same time convincing the plebs to vote to leave.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is an actual quote (on the parliamentary Hansard record!) from IDS in the WA debate.

The man is either stupid, or a liar, or quite possibly of course, both.

Brexit is the con of the century. And they got the British people to vote for it. (I mean, albeit only just, and only by telling lie after lie after lie and running an illegal campaign, but still.)

.