Brexit - whats the difference.....

[thr0b]

Because we want be able to do things entirely our way, and in ways which would put us at an advantage over EU members who wouldn’t have the same advantages.

Any negotiator who agreed to give up rights for their own side or disadvantage themselves for the benefit of a small third party would not be doing their job properly.

We need and have always needed the EU more than the EU has needed us. Our entire economic recovery from the 70s to the 2000s was thanks in no small part to EU funding and the scales involved.

Nowadays, the EU has nothing significant to gain in bending their rules for us. Any industry we have left will happily relocate to the EU if needs be.

There’s a reason that no other country in world history has effectively put economic sanctions on itself. We’ve done it. There was never a good reason to do it, other than to make a few very rich people even richer.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

They have agreed free trade deals with japan and canada but won't do the same deal with the uk because we are physically nearer to them

But that's a big deal mack, especially since the UK won't agree to LPF (Level Playing Field) terms either.

If we can undercut the EU, right on their doorstep, and then just whoosh all the stuff through the channel tunnel or a quick hop on a ferry (albeit with all the new customs paperwork to do), then the EU is putting itself at a disadvantage.

The fact that goods have to travel most of the way across the world to get to the EU from Japan or Canada makes that far less of an issue.

The EU is negotiating in its own best interest, we're a third country now by choice, they don't owe us any special favours or treatment, and made it clear before the referendum was even held that'd be the case, so it's not like they've stabbed us in the back.

We got the trade deals with Japan and Canada by being part of the EU, now we're not part of the EU we have to renegotiate our own trade deal with them, and as Japan made very clear, we won't get the same deal because we're a medium sized economy, (and not part of the largest single trading bloc in the world, the EU), and a shrinking medium sized economy at that. (Did you see the pieces I linked to the other day whereby sterling is now being treated as an 'emerging market' currency?)

It's the worst of all worlds, basically. We have to negotiate a trade deal with the EU because we left, and we have to negotiate trade deals with countries such as Canada and Japan too, because we gave those up by leaving the EU.

Again, all predicted, all well known, all dismissed as Project Fear.

 

[mack341]

Because we want be able to do things entirely our way, and in ways which would put us at an advantage over EU members who wouldn’t have the same advantages.

Any negotiator who agreed to give up rights for their own side or disadvantage themselves for the benefit of a small third party would not be doing their job properly.

We need and have always needed the EU more than the EU has needed us. Our entire economic recovery from the 70s to the 2000s was thanks in no small part to EU funding and the scales involved.

Nowadays, the EU has nothing significant to gain in bending their rules for us. Any industry we have left will happily relocate to the EU if needs be.

There’s a reason that no other country in world history has effectively put economic sanctions on itself. We’ve done it. There was never a good reason to do it, other than to make a few very rich people even richer.

Aren't you able to see that is effectively what the EU intransigence is going to lead to, tariff's on their biggest export market, all because we wanted independence, to determine our own laws and govern for ourselves?

I don't know exactly what you are suggesting we do, you've advocated for an extension but also said the EU doesn't need us and implied we're going to get a bad outcome unless we agree to their rules. [which would have to be forever?]

 

[thr0b]

We may be their biggest export market, but we are tiny in the scheme of things.

And we only got that big by being part of the union. Now we’re not part of that union, trade will drop. They’ll realign with the current members.

Look at it like a corner shop; you’d go there because it was convenient, but if they jacked up all their prices and Tesco was the same distance, you’d go to Tesco.

We’re the corner shop. And our stock is second rate, covered in dust and it’s run by a racist.

 

[mack341]

But that's a big deal mack, especially since the UK won't agree to LPF (Level Playing Field) terms either.

If we can undercut the EU, right on their doorstep, and then just whoosh all the stuff through the channel tunnel or a quick hop on a ferry (albeit with all the new customs paperwork to do), then the EU is putting itself at a disadvantage.

The fact that goods have to travel most of the way across the world to get to the EU from Japan or Canada makes that far less of an issue.

The EU is negotiating in its own best interest, we're a third country now by choice, they don't owe us any special favours or treatment, and made it clear before the referendum was even held that'd be the case, so it's not like they've stabbed us in the back.

We got the trade deals with Japan and Canada by being part of the EU, now we're not part of the EU we have to renegotiate our own trade deal with them, and as Japan made very clear, we won't get the same deal because we're a medium sized economy, (and not part of the largest single trading bloc in the world, the EU), and a shrinking medium sized economy at that. (Did you see the pieces I linked to the other day whereby sterling is now being treated as an 'emerging market' currency?)

It's the worst of all worlds, basically. We have to negotiate a trade deal with the EU because we left, and we have to negotiate trade deals with countries such as Canada and Japan too, because we gave those up by leaving the EU.

Again, all predicted, all well known, all dismissed as Project Fear.

I haven't spent the same amount of time looking at the current issues as before when this thread was lively, so I am not up to speed but the media are hardly mentioning it now and the uk negotiators/govt don't look like they're panicking, the EU team are also being far more circumspect in their announcements too [that is my impression, we're not privy to all the details from the talks, so I'm going on that]

Boris could suddenly announce an extension in november, you just don't know with him, not somebody who you can set your watch by. He may make big concessions at the eleventh hour as well.

To say the uk is an insignificant backwater and we need to get out our begging bowl is just not reality, they are 27 countries together but they won't always agree or have the exact shared interests.

 

[thr0b]

The deadline to ask for an extension as ratified in law was the end of June 2020.

He could ask for one now, but it would require the agreement of the member states.

And we are insignificant. We’re tiny! We’re independent! As part of the EU, the Republic Of Ireland has greater international standing than us.

 

[mack341]

" The United Kingdom, with a $2.83 trillion GDP is the sixth largest economy in the world. " It must mean france is insignificant as well then?

The ROI and apple just won a case against the EU regarding ROI's tax arrangements with apple, who make about 10 billion in profit from europe and only pay 50 million in tax. So much for rules and level playing fields, this approach of tax avoidance by big corporations is not sustainable but no surprise it has gone on in the liberal EU when the last EU president had turned luxembourg into a major centre of tax avoidance.

 

[goatwack]

I'd always wondered what Luxembourg was for

 

[dunover]

Because we want be able to do things entirely our way, and in ways which would put us at an advantage over EU members who wouldn’t have the same advantages.

Any negotiator who agreed to give up rights for their own side or disadvantage themselves for the benefit of a small third party would not be doing their job properly.

We need and have always needed the EU more than the EU has needed us. Our entire economic recovery from the 70s to the 2000s was thanks in no small part to EU funding and the scales involved.

Nowadays, the EU has nothing significant to gain in bending their rules for us. Any industry we have left will happily relocate to the EU if needs be.

There’s a reason that no other country in world history has effectively put economic sanctions on itself. We’ve done it. There was never a good reason to do it, other than to make a few very rich people even richer.

I still haven't stopped laughing at that one. Adjusted for today's prices since 1973, the UK has paid the EU just under £0.5tn Pounds, with £110bn in rebates and reverse grants. So £390bn says to me we have chiefly made other economies wealthier.

Our economic recovery came from binning inefficient nationalised industries, deregulation (something which Thatcher basically handbagged the French and Germans into doing in the late 80's when she was an advocate of it, pre-federalism) a floating exchange rate and removal of currency limits between the UK and overseas. Then add tax reductions in the basic rate of PAYE from 33 down to 20% and removing Denis Healey's punitive klepto-tax on the wealthy who lived as tax exiles or wouldn't invest time or money in UK-based business.

The EU had next to bugger-all to do with it, aside from the CAP creating food mountains so we had cheaper food to benefit us all. oh! hang on - we weren't allowed to buy it cheap so it was dumped or given to the third world.

 

[paul7388]

So because we are a small nation and not part of the EU no one will want too trade with us and we are doomed to a life of poverty.

Someone like to explain how every all the other countries in the world survive.

I see it will be hard to trade with Japan. Never realised they were a world superpower but they seem to manage to get by fine and trade with other countries okay. That huge Island Nation New Zealand manages to export it's lamb even tho it is miles from anywhere.

Half the Bloody countries in EU do nothing apart from drain money. Had to laugh at Ireland having Greater International standing than us now since they are in EU. Half the bloody world thinks Ireland are part of us.

Seriously things might be tough. Deals might be hard. But if you have something a country wants to buy then they will still buy it from them. All these countries in the world manage to survive.

Many European countries rely on British tourists. They make up more than 50% of their visitors and income. We still want German cars they still want our Whisky. One way or another the guy next door will still have his Audi and the wee old man in Munich will still sit down with his pipe and slippers having his wee dram of Glenfiddich.

 

[Kroffe]

Half the Bloody countries in EU do nothing apart from drain money. Had to laugh at Ireland having Greater International standing than us now since they are in EU. Half the bloody world thinks Ireland are part of us.

Not the uk?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

EU = Bad.

Trump = Good.

Anyone think for one second the UK would have done this were it not for the fact we were desperate for some sort of trade deal with the States?

(The trade deal which, of course, no one is even pretending will come close to replacing even a modest chunk of what we'll lose with the EU when transition ends.)

 

[ZoeP]

EU = Bad.

Trump = Good.

Anyone think for one second the UK would have done this were it not for the fact we were desperate for some sort of trade deal with the States?

(The trade deal which, of course, no one is even pretending will come close to replacing even a modest chunk of what we'll lose with the EU when transition ends.)

View attachment 137170

I find it doesn't matter what the normal folk say, what every way it was planned it happened.
I don't look at the data, as it comes from one source.

Where it really matters is our local communities.

 

[goatwack]

EU = Bad.

Trump = Good.

Anyone think for one second the UK would have done this were it not for the fact we were desperate for some sort of trade deal with the States?

(The trade deal which, of course, no one is even pretending will come close to replacing even a modest chunk of what we'll lose with the EU when transition ends.)

View attachment 137170

You really can't mention Trump and not partake in the festivities over in the N. Korea thread. You don't know what you're missing!

Let's go champ!

 

[thr0b]

 

[goatwack]

Good God no, no, NO, not the holiday insurance

I'll have to forfeit my plans to tan myself in Ayia Napa for another year, to go with the 28 years holiday I haven't had

 

[mack341]

Anyone think for one second the UK would have done this were it not for the fact we were desperate for some sort of trade deal with the States?

Huawei looks like an issue for the EU too now, be interesting to see how independent and strong the EU actually are, or whether they also change course and restrict huawei.

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The about-face follows anger in London at China’s crackdown on Hong Kong and the view that Beijing has not told the full truth over coronavirus. It also reflects the impact of new U.S. sanctions on chip technology, which London says affects Huawei’s ability to remain a reliable supplier.

Europe now finds itself front and centre of the U.S. drive to uproot Huawei from next-generation mobile networks.

...But since the European Commission published its toolbox there have been significant geopolitical developments, including the spread of COVID from China, hardnosed diplomacy by Beijing that has angered some EU governments, the imposition of China’s new security law in Hong Kong and the U.S. chip-tech sanctions.

“EU member states do seem to be increasingly doubtful about Huawei,” the official said. “The standard view is heading towards giving maybe just a very small role to Huawei [for 5G].”

A lot is likely to depend on the view Germany takes.....The German government is not expected to make a decision on its 5G rules until September. While Deutsche Telekom backs Huawei, Germany’s head of foreign intelligence has said the Chinese firm cannot be trusted and should not play a major role.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Oh for sure mack, there are problems with Huawei and there have been for a while, the point here is that the UK have basically been told what to do by the States, specifically Trump. 'Do what I tell you or you don't get a trade deal' - which is what happens when a medium sized economy goes it alone in the world and finds itself being pushed about and bullied by an economic superpower such as the United States.

It doesn't bode well for us maintaining our animal welfare and production standards once the US trade 'discussions' start in earnest.

We'd be in a far better position helping to forge an EU consensus around Huawei, as a member of the EU top-table, which the UK always was.

This is one of the things that mystifies me about Brexit, the idea that the EU were always 'telling us what to do', when in reality the UK was absolutely one of the most influential top-table EU members, hence all the concessions and rule bending the EU did for us over the years, which we've just set fire to and replaced with being pushed around by the States.

 

[thr0b]

All going swimmingly. Perfectly normal.

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[goatwack]

And this is Brexiteers' fault how?

 

[thr0b]

And this is Brexiteers' fault how?

"US Pressure" - we're so desperate for trade deals, we'll bend to the whims of America's own loon at the drop of a hat.

 

[goatwack]

"US Pressure" - we're so desperate for trade deals, we'll bend to the whims of America's own loon at the drop of a hat.

So essentially he holds all the cards by forcing us to get the begging bowl out to have TikTok set their offices up here, as he's essentially given TikTok an ultimatum of 'U.S or nothing'

I can see why that would put us at a disadvantage

 

[ternur]

So essentially he holds all the cards by forcing us to get the begging bowl out to have TikTok set their offices up here, as he's essentially given TikTok an ultimatum of 'U.S or nothing'

I can see why that would put us at a disadvantage

I'll have a guess.

Frantic by Metallica. Tick tick tick tick tick tick tock.

That's another comp bagged I think. I'll PM you my delivery details for the beer.

 

[goatwack]

I'll have a guess.

Frantic by Metallica. Tick tick tick tick tick tick tock.

That's another comp bagged I think. I'll PM you my delivery details for the beer.

All bagged up & sent to

フィンランドのテルヌール

Congrats

 

[ternur]

All bagged up & sent to

フィンランドのテルヌール

Congrats

Gracias

That was too easy. I was the only participant.

And extra thanks for the language lession. I trust that this was done by actual typing instead of some interweb c/p thingy. I can actually read the characters by now. But kanji is hard. It requires copious amounts of beer:

a character learned, a beer earned (my new motto).

 

[thr0b]

The Russia Report.

"There have been widespread allegations that

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sought to influence voters in the 2016 referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU: studies have pointed to the preponderance of pro-Brexit or anti-EU stories on RT and Sputnik, and the use of ‘bots’ and ‘trolls’, as evidence. The actual impact of such attempts on the result itself would be difficult – if not impossible – to prove. However what is clear is that the government was slow to recognise the existence of the threat – only understanding it after the ‘hack and leak’ operation against the Democratic National Committee, when it should have been seen as early as 2014. As a result the government did not take action to protect the UK’s process in 2016. The committee has not been provided with any post-referendum assessment - in stark contrast to the US response to reports of interference in the 2016 presidential election. In our view there must be an analogous assessment of Russian interference in the EU referendum"


Or to put it another way; the government knew that the Brexit referendum had probably been interfered with, but did nothing to look into it, nor did they use any of the findings they should have found to protect future elections and referendums.

They got the result they wanted, so they didn't care if it was legitimate.

And there you have it. Tories don't care how they win, as long as they win.

 

[goatwack]

I thought most of the 'Elites' and Tory rabble favoured Remain, and fought tooth-and-nail to convince the Great Unwashed, i.e the stupid racists that didn't know what they were doing?

So if our overlords 'knew' about it and it went against their interests then they really shot themselves in the foot there, haven't they

Seems we have more history revision here. But that's fine, 'tis the season for it!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This might come as a bit of a shock, but Johnson was lying his ass off about having an 'oven ready' deal with the EU.

(I mean, this was pointed out at the time by many folks, but they were dismissed as being 'gloomy Remoaners'.)

 

[Drekken]

Please can someone tell me what the difference is between a permanent customs union, which JC is telling Labour MP's to support, and remaining in the EU?
My limited knowledge tells me that if you are in the customs union you cant negotiate your own trade deals, you must have freedom of movement for people and goods, but you can't have a say in how the EU is run. Is this not a wee bit daft since 52% of the voters said they wanted to leave the EU? I know im not the brightest light in the room, but surely this is the worst possible scenario for leavers and remainers?

U.K. would be able to restrict the movement of people at its border.

 

[thr0b]

The UK has always had full control of its borders. We've just chosen to take a more relaxed approach than other EU countries because immigration is good for the economy and the country as a whole.

 

[dunover]

Hauwei is the 1668/JAZ of the telecoms industry. Good riddance. Like letting Jimmy Savile run a chain of after school clubs.

 

[goatwack]

As much as 'freedom of movement' benefited transition and eg wanting to acquire equal status wherever one lay their hat, it was always prone to abuse.

I'm fairly certain it wasn't intended for work tourism where people plunder the local economy to send it to their families, and then leave the debris behind. Seen that happen rather a lot, and that's before we get into NHS tourists.

As for Immigration policies, relaxed is the word! Though I'd say 'open door' would be more accurate, especially with our smiley friend Tony at the helm

 

[goatwack]

Grrrreat

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm sure we were told this would be the easiest trade deal in history.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hmmmm.

It's almost as if there was lying and cheating involved.

 

[dunover]

Hmmmm.

It's almost as if there was lying and cheating involved.

View attachment 137485

View attachment 137486
View attachment 137487

Buy GOLD bullion mate, that's what I've been doing. VAT free, tax-free on the first 11k of profits too. Unless you're like those lot and have a tax haven to move to, like Monaco, Malta or the IoM lol....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Buy GOLD bullion mate, that's what I've been doing. VAT free, tax-free on the first 11k of profits too. Unless you're like those lot and have a tax haven to move to, like Monaco, Malta or the IoM lol....

In fairness I moved here in 1996, loooooooong before any of these Brexit shenanigans kicked off

(And I certainly didn't move here to hide my money, as I had absolutely fuck all when I moved over and my first couple of jobs here were in pubs/restaurants doing bar/kitchen work!)

 

[goatwack]

To be fair to Fox, he did say 'one of'

 

[thr0b]

Never be fair to disgraced MP Liam Fox.

 

[goatwack]

I'm actually buying up Pound Sterling as of now. Wayyy more fun than Penny Shares

 

[dunover]

I'm actually buying up Pound Sterling as of now. Wayyy more fun than Penny Shares

Put it this way, the Royal Mint has run out of Gold bars except the 400-oz one at £543k which is slightly out of my price range. 10g, 20g, 50g, 100g, 500g etc. are all out of stock. I had to go somewhere else to get the 100g bars which are Swiss and no, not fucking Toblerones before the jokes come in...
I bought some £100 coins (1oz .999 gold) instead.

 

[goatwack]

Just seeing the excerpts of Bojo in bonnie Scotland, he looks without a care in the world



Disappointed no one set up a staged gaffe, like him slapping someone with a haddock or driving a Brexit boat through a wall

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Another fine, albeit very sobering analysis from the excellent Chris Grey, who has been calling every single aspect of this Brexit shitshow pretty much spot on for the last four years.

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----------------------

The fundamental conundrum, obviously, is that the only way of showing serious preparedness for no deal is to also admit the massive dislocations that it would cause and, therefore, the reasons why it would be a terrible course of action. That continues to apply now, but with a new twist, which is that many of these dislocations also have to be admitted in order to prepare for any deal which may be done. Even in this best case scenario there’s simply no good news – just as the Brexiters were warned all along – so the only way to square the circle is to foreground all the guff about sovereignty and leave it for the still largely unsuspecting public to grub around for the details of just how much more difficult their lives are about to become.

--------------------

The whole Project Fear dismissal would have been unnecessary. The message would simply have been – yes, there are costs but they are worth it as a price to pay for sovereignty. But such a message would never have won them the Referendum. Instead, the claim had to be that, yes, sovereignty would be regained (hence, ‘taking back control’) but that it would be costless or, even, financially advantageous (hence, ‘£350 Million a week’). It’s only since winning that the ‘but it was never about money’ line has been spun – a line which would only have worked with a minority of voters had it been attempted at the time.

----------------------

So the ‘New Start’ campaign has to be understood as the lineal descendent of Vote Leave campaign. What it conceals is the massive unpreparedness of both businesses and government – worsened by coronavirus – as outlined in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Almost daily new problems emerge or re-emerge, this week ranging from the

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of the sort needed by non-members of the EU to ship goods (much less trivial than it sounds) through to what will happen to the

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(even more serious than it sounds). These were both things that have been long-warned about (see

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and

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) yet no, or insufficient, preparations have been made.

But even if all the necessary preparations had been or come to be made for this ‘new start’ what they would be preparation for is invariably something unpleasant. It is to be hoped that the sense of sovereignty will be satisfying, because according to the government website every practical impact of Brexit is going to be negative. There is not one single thing listed which will make anyone’s life easier or better.

 

[Playford7]

Another fine, albeit very sobering analysis from the excellent Chris Grey, who has been calling every single aspect of this Brexit shitshow pretty much spot on for the last four years.

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----------------------

The fundamental conundrum, obviously, is that the only way of showing serious preparedness for no deal is to also admit the massive dislocations that it would cause and, therefore, the reasons why it would be a terrible course of action. That continues to apply now, but with a new twist, which is that many of these dislocations also have to be admitted in order to prepare for any deal which may be done. Even in this best case scenario there’s simply no good news – just as the Brexiters were warned all along – so the only way to square the circle is to foreground all the guff about sovereignty and leave it for the still largely unsuspecting public to grub around for the details of just how much more difficult their lives are about to become.

--------------------

The whole Project Fear dismissal would have been unnecessary. The message would simply have been – yes, there are costs but they are worth it as a price to pay for sovereignty. But such a message would never have won them the Referendum. Instead, the claim had to be that, yes, sovereignty would be regained (hence, ‘taking back control’) but that it would be costless or, even, financially advantageous (hence, ‘£350 Million a week’). It’s only since winning that the ‘but it was never about money’ line has been spun – a line which would only have worked with a minority of voters had it been attempted at the time.

----------------------

So the ‘New Start’ campaign has to be understood as the lineal descendent of Vote Leave campaign. What it conceals is the massive unpreparedness of both businesses and government – worsened by coronavirus – as outlined in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Almost daily new problems emerge or re-emerge, this week ranging from the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

of the sort needed by non-members of the EU to ship goods (much less trivial than it sounds) through to what will happen to the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(even more serious than it sounds). These were both things that have been long-warned about (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

and

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) yet no, or insufficient, preparations have been made.

But even if all the necessary preparations had been or come to be made for this ‘new start’ what they would be preparation for is invariably something unpleasant. It is to be hoped that the sense of sovereignty will be satisfying, because according to the government website every practical impact of Brexit is going to be negative. There is not one single thing listed which will make anyone’s life easier or better.

Your such a negative nelly.
Don’t you worry yourself and get all upset, no deal will be majestic.

 

[mack341]

Another fine, albeit very sobering analysis from the excellent Chris Grey, who has been calling every single aspect of this Brexit shitshow pretty much spot on for the last four years.

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----------------------

The fundamental conundrum, obviously, is that the only way of showing serious preparedness for no deal is to also admit the massive dislocations that it would cause and, therefore, the reasons why it would be a terrible course of action. That continues to apply now, but with a new twist, which is that many of these dislocations also have to be admitted in order to prepare for any deal which may be done. Even in this best case scenario there’s simply no good news – just as the Brexiters were warned all along – so the only way to square the circle is to foreground all the guff about sovereignty and leave it for the still largely unsuspecting public to grub around for the details of just how much more difficult their lives are about to become.

--------------------

The whole Project Fear dismissal would have been unnecessary. The message would simply have been – yes, there are costs but they are worth it as a price to pay for sovereignty. But such a message would never have won them the Referendum. Instead, the claim had to be that, yes, sovereignty would be regained (hence, ‘taking back control’) but that it would be costless or, even, financially advantageous (hence, ‘£350 Million a week’). It’s only since winning that the ‘but it was never about money’ line has been spun – a line which would only have worked with a minority of voters had it been attempted at the time.

----------------------

So the ‘New Start’ campaign has to be understood as the lineal descendent of Vote Leave campaign. What it conceals is the massive unpreparedness of both businesses and government – worsened by coronavirus – as outlined in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Almost daily new problems emerge or re-emerge, this week ranging from the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

of the sort needed by non-members of the EU to ship goods (much less trivial than it sounds) through to what will happen to the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(even more serious than it sounds). These were both things that have been long-warned about (see

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

and

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) yet no, or insufficient, preparations have been made.

But even if all the necessary preparations had been or come to be made for this ‘new start’ what they would be preparation for is invariably something unpleasant. It is to be hoped that the sense of sovereignty will be satisfying, because according to the government website every practical impact of Brexit is going to be negative. There is not one single thing listed which will make anyone’s life easier or better.

To my mind brexiteers didn't really need a campaign to convince them of anything, just as the remainers largely didn't either. This is a gut instinct decision for most, what is right and wrong, the principle of following orders from unelected technocrats [ with the connivance of you're own govt ] is unappealing to many. Even if our democracy is a bit of a pretence most of the time, we don't want to bolt onto that another body of powerful officials based in brussels, uninterested in what we think.

On the basis of the arguments chris grey is making, he must believe no country should or would ever have a desire to leave the EU?

It seems we cannot get a free trade deal unless we agree to continue to be a member in all but name. [i.e carry on following the EU's edicts]. I can't see how any democratic country would sign up to that because who knows what the future brings and how much flexibility is needed to do well as a country.

More and more red tape has consequences and increases business costs in compliance, thus squeeezing out any new smaller firms, reducing competition and increasing crony capitalism.

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It is estimated that there are over 25,000 lobbyists working in the European quarter, most of whom in the service of corporations and their lobby groups. And their efforts to influence the regulations and laws that affect a union of more than 510 million people do not come cheaply. Conservative estimates suggest that over €1.5 billion is spent every year on lobbying targets like the European Commission, the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, and Brussels offices of national governments.

^So the EU structure saves multinational big business the trouble of having to lobby in every individual country, they can focus efforts in brussels and achieve europe wide results.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yet another one of those depressing, inevitable, and predicted brickbats to the face of British industry thanks to Brexit, where a sector faces huge new costs and bureaucracy just to emulate what we already get for free by being an EU member.

Some businesses will be able to absorb the extra costs (although that will be reflected in increased prices), some will relocate to a country in the EU, some will simply give up or go under.

It's just an endless procession of downsides. No upsides. No benefits. Nothing getting better.

And time and time again, we end up simply trying to replicate what the EU have anyway, because we need to maintain so many equivalences and standards to be able to continue to do business with them.

“Our EU competitors are licking their lips, and that is deeply frustrating,” Ms Loughran said of the mounting costs. “We’ve spent 30 years growing from nothing, now all these barriers are being forced upon us. “It is enormously wasteful and uncompetitive for UK companies like us to have to spend time, money and resources to repeat all of these registrations for no additional benefit to anyone.”

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[ChopleyIOM]

Probably shouldn't have voted for the Withdrawal Agreement earlier this year then, eh?

Anyone else think he probably didn't even read it?

It's almost as if, and I'm just going to throw this out there, that the entire Brexit cohort had no earthly fucking idea of how they were actually going to do any of this, once they got past the tub-thumping anti-EU rhetoric.

And before anyone suggests that the WA was a 'Theresa May Remainer' agreement, here's a picture of who signed it.

Seriously folks, never, ever, listen to anything that this cabal of cheats, liars, chancers, incompetents and frauds have to say ever again.

 

[Sidmanaman73]

Ian Duncan Smith. The Mondeo Man. Chris Grayling wants to be this inept when he grows up....

 

[thr0b]

And of course, the agreement signed by Boris was by several metrics WORSE than the agreement May had negotiated. Bunch of twats, the Tories. Self-serving twats. Many of whom have conspicuously taken up EU citizenship where applicable, while at the same time convincing the plebs to vote to leave.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is an actual quote (on the parliamentary Hansard record!) from IDS in the WA debate.

The man is either stupid, or a liar, or quite possibly of course, both.

Brexit is the con of the century. And they got the British people to vote for it. (I mean, albeit only just, and only by telling lie after lie after lie and running an illegal campaign, but still.)

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