Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, because pretending something doesn't exist and/or isn't real makes it go away!

 

[thr0b]

Yes, because pretending something doesn't exist and/or isn't real makes it go away!

It's astonishing. People argue facts and hand-wave them as lies. Half a nation was groomed, and a good proportion of that half are still denying it.

 

[mack341]

I give the link but the daily express is a nightmare of adverts and popups interspersed within the article. [25th june 2020]

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" Economist Roger Bootle argued the EU's root contradiction has been exposed and could spell the end of the bloc. While speaking on YouTube channel Brexit Watch, Mr Bootle claimed there was tension building between two groups that both support the institution of the EU. The economist claimed, the tension was rising between those that wanted to see a United States of Europe and those that wanted a Europe made up of individual cooperating member states. "

Mr Bootle said: "I think the wheels are coming off the EU and I have thought this for a long time.

"In my book 'the Trouble with Europe', I actually forecast then not just the Euro would break up but the EU would eventually break, it wouldn't survive.

"I stand by this, though it is not bound to happen but right at the centre of the EU there has been a contradiction."

He said: "In its very essence you have those people who wanted to create a United States of Europe, who wanted to drive Europe into ever-closer integration.

"Then you had others who didn't subscribe to that aim who essentially wanted to keep it a Europe of nation-states.

He continued: "These two things are fundamentally in opposition to each other.

"Th EU behaved with the attitude of, oh it will be alright, it will work on the night.

"That is exactly what the monetary union is, what the Euro is.

"It is a halfway house, a half-completed monetary union."


Mr Bootle concluded: "It nearly collapsed in 2012 and it has been on the ropes ever since.

"Now we have got the coronavirus crisis and it has exposed the problem I referred to.

"The contradiction of groups and the tension between those that want a proper full union and those that don't.

"It is right at the root of the union and I think Europe is going to have to face up to this.

"It is not going to be able to go on fudging it and thinking it is all going to be alright on the night."

-------------

I definitely get the sense our negotiators aren't panicking like they were before under Theresa may, probably because they know a WTO based no deal is not the end of the world, and preferable to a rushed bad deal with longer term consequences. We can always renegotiate individual matters as things pan out. The whole world economy is probably going to be in trouble now due to the virus, 'the great reset' is on it's way.

 

[thr0b]

There is not a major developed nation in the world that trades solely on WTO terms. It is NOT a good thing.

The EU are not panicking. Our negotiators aren't panicking because Johnson's team does not want a deal; they never have.

And all the time, right-wing newspapers are telling you not to worry. Because their owners are going to be just fine, no, better off because of the oncoming clusterfuck.

There's a reason Farage and Johnson's relatives are taking up their citizenship options for other EU nations.

The EU is not remotely close to collapse. If it were, they would not be speaking in a united voice still against a former member state. There would be no sense in doing so if others were considering leaving, as they'd be damning themselves down the line.

I really can't believe people are still falling for the Mail/Express shit, which has been consistently and provably wrong.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I definitely get the sense our negotiators aren't panicking like they were before under Theresa may, probably because they know a WTO based no deal is not the end of the world, and preferable to a rushed bad deal with longer term consequences. We can always renegotiate individual matters as things pan out. The whole world economy is probably going to be in trouble now due to the virus, 'the great reset' is on it's way.

With all due respect though mack, that's the kind of rhetoric we've been hearing for years and yet here we are, the EU is still intact, 'Project Fear' is becoming 'Project Reality' in front of our eyes, and all the stuff that the Leave campaign told us would happen ('exact same benefits as we have now' etc) is being revealed for the stack of lies it was all along.

No one ever said it would be 'the end of the world' to leave the EU without a deal, but let's face it, that's a pretty low bar to cross. I mean, 'Well it could have been worse I suppose, the world could have ended' isn't exactly a shining endorsement of a course of action, is it?

For example, current best estimates are that in a no deal scenario, the prices of everyday staples will increase by 5-20%, with some issues around availability of fresh produce, shelf life etc.

And what have we got out of it? Blue passports designed by a French owned company that are made in Poland.

 

[mack341]

There is not a major developed nation in the world that trades solely on WTO terms. It is NOT a good thing.

The EU are not panicking. Our negotiators aren't panicking because Johnson's team does not want a deal; they never have.

And all the time, right-wing newspapers are telling you not to worry. Because their owners are going to be just fine, no, better off because of the oncoming clusterfuck.

There's a reason Farage and Johnson's relatives are taking up their citizenship options for other EU nations.

The EU is not remotely close to collapse. If it were, they would not be speaking in a united voice still against a former member state. There would be no sense in doing so if others were considering leaving, as they'd be damning themselves down the line.

I really can't believe people are still falling for the Mail/Express shit, which has been consistently and provably wrong.

They are quoting a well respected economist, that is the whole basis of the article, if you read it he said the break up was not 'bound to happen' but there is a glaring contradiction between countries that want closer alignment and others that don't. In an economist's terms close could be two decades or longer, as he uses the word 'eventually'

I think you'd have to be a bit of a blind EU fanatic to believe everything is sailing along fine just the same as the late 90's to early 2000s?

[ There's also no need to swear in reply to a post unless you are seeking confrontation? ]

 

[thr0b]

Bootle is a serial Eurosceptic, who has made lots of money and written books consistently on the subject. A one-note thinker. He's also a regular Express contributor, and most of his writing appears only in right-wing and Eurosceptic newspapers.

I don't hold much weight in his assessments. Again, he is provably wrong. And the Leave argument has been proved to be built on lies.

You cannot argue with facts, and he doesn't. He argues an opinion.

 

[mack341]

With all due respect though mack, that's the kind of rhetoric we've been hearing for years and yet here we are, the EU is still intact, 'Project Fear' is becoming 'Project Reality' in front of our eyes, and all the stuff that the Leave campaign told us would happen ('exact same benefits as we have now' etc) is being revealed for the stack of lies it was all along.

No one ever said it would be 'the end of the world' to leave the EU without a deal, but let's face it, that's a pretty low bar to cross. I mean, 'Well it could have been worse I suppose, the world could have ended' isn't exactly a shining endorsement of a course of action, is it?

For example, current best estimates are that in a no deal scenario, the prices of everyday staples will increase by 5-20%, with some issues around availability of fresh produce, shelf life etc.

And what have we got out of it? Blue passports designed by a French owned company that are made in Poland.

I don't have a lot of faith in our leaders and decision makers to fulfill the ambitions for the country that they speak about, but that wil be part of our democratic process and debate [hopefully]

The cost of food has already shot up during the lockdown, but you have to look at how Uk/britain plc makes a lot of it's money/income, and how that will be impacted by a no deal with europe. London is probably still the leading financial centre [maybe number two] we'd be in trouble without it.

Many, many top conservatives were in favour of remaining, cameron and osborne, May etc.. and of course the biggest fanboy is crony blair, so I'm willing to take my chances and ignore them.

 

[paul7388]

Everywhere is totally fucked with economies ruined through the Coronavirus. So who knows if it will get worse or not because of Brexit.

But I would imagine some countries in EU would want best deals they can get with UK as it is proven fact their economies rely on UK visitors. If they make things too difficult for UK and it affects the amount of tourists to their countries they would be totally screwed.

 

[mack341]

Bootle is a serial Eurosceptic, who has made lots of money and written books consistently on the subject. A one-note thinker. He's also a regular Express contributor, and most of his writing appears only in right-wing and Eurosceptic newspapers.

I don't hold much weight in his assessments. Again, he is provably wrong. And the Leave argument has been proved to be built on lies.

You cannot argue with facts, and he doesn't. He argues an opinion.

He read Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Merton College, Oxford before completing his graduate studies at Nuffield College.

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Bootle began his career in the academic world as a lecturer in Economics at St Anne’s College, Oxford.

He worked as an economist for Capel-Cure Myers and Lloyds Merchant Bank. From 1989 until 1998, he was an economist at Midland Bank/HSBC, rising to the position of Group Chief Economist of the HSBC group. During the John Major government in the 1990s, he was appointed to the UK treasury’s panel of economic forecasters under Kenneth Clarke.

^ that sounds to me like he is an intelligent man and respected as an economist; he is sceptical of the EU, it is allowed and not a modern day heresy. He probably realises endless EU red tape is not good for small and medium sized businesses in the uk, doesn't mean the uk govt won't adopt the same approach, as Chopley has mentioned recently. But at least (theoretically) we can vote in politicians who wish to change that.

 

[thr0b]

Red Tape?

Oh man, you really have fallen for it.

The fact that on the most basic level - there was previously little to no red tape for trucks to cross from the continent to us, yet next year they will have to fill out more paperwork and we will have to pay more people to review that paperwork which right now is not necessary has not been noticed by you?

The fact that the cost of running just one lorry park in Kent (which their Brexiteer MP has whinged about being placed in his constituency) will more than outweigh any negligible benefit appears to have been ignored.

"the UK government expects businesses to complete hundreds of millions of additional import and export customs declarations - an official estimate of around 400 million was later revised down to 215 million - as a result of Brexit, at a cost previously estimated by HM Revenue and Customs at anything up to £20bn a year."

And that's just the customs costs.

You think we've got price rises now due to a temporary blip? Just wait until that temporary blip hits the reality of what's coming on January 1st. Get used to potatoes.

 

[goatwack]

These Remainers' optimism is infectious, to the point where I'm almost exploding with joy

I mean sure, potatoes. We could have mashed, wedged, hell even 'Potatoes Au Gratin' so don't be knocking its unquestionable versatility!

We'll become a Third-World Country outpost that likely sinks to the bottom of the ocean

Rather reminiscent of the Millennium Bug, I recall the fear-mongering employed back then and people profiteering heavily off the back of that

Only realistic short-term fallout felt for the next couple of decades will be due to, shit what was it, Cor.....Cov.....some sort of biblical pandemic that decimated world economies in a Quarter. But no, let's beat the Brexit Pessimism Drum and attribute our collective failings on that!

So yes, we're all f*cked. These Remainer parties must be fun

 

[thr0b]

No. We've now got Covid PLUS the reality of Brexit combining.

A sensible government, acting in the interests of the nation would've taken up the opportunity at a time of global pandemic to extend the transition agreements. The option was there. They did not reject it to look after the interests of the nation, rather as ideology.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That's the thing, just because you've got a broken leg doesn't mean you throw yourself out of a window to break your arm as well, since the broken leg is already causing you a lot of pain so you might not notice the difference that much.

Brexit was already a crazy act of national self harm, to deliberately do it off the back of Covid (when we had the opportunity to extend transition) is insanity driven by wild-eyed ideology and disaster capitalists eyeing the spoils of the economic carnage.

I do note however that literally no one, at all, anywhere, is still trying to make the case for anything that Brexit might actually make better.

 

[goatwack]

 

[goatwack]

But wait, there's more!

 

[goatwack]

And of course finally, not forgetting, we have

 

[mack341]

No. We've now got Covid PLUS the reality of Brexit combining.

A sensible government, acting in the interests of the nation would've taken up the opportunity at a time of global pandemic to extend the transition agreements. The option was there. They did not reject it to look after the interests of the nation, rather as ideology.

If you extend the transition agreements on the basis of the 'pandemic' what time frame are you going to put on it, given the scientists keep saying it's going to be with us for some time and there will be further waves.

You could be looking at delaying brexit until 2022. The EU always want something, I bet any extension would have had extra big costs. [maybe political sovereignty concessions] I do not object to giving more time to EU citizens seeking uk residency as the lockdown may have caused problems for people.

 

[goatwack]

If you extend the transition agreements on the basis of the 'pandemic' what time frame are you going to put on it, given the scientists keep saying it's going to be with us for some time and there will be further waves.

You could be looking at delaying brexit until 2022. The EU always want something, I bet any extension would have had extra big costs. [maybe political sovereignty concessions] I do not object to giving more time to EU citizens seeking uk residency as the lockdown may have caused problems for people.

I dig the shout-out Mack, kudos

Spoiler

please don't cart me off to Azerbaijan. I have so much left to give

 

[thr0b]

 

[goatwack]

Cruel, yet funny

 

[mack341]

Red Tape?

Oh man, you really have fallen for it.

The fact that on the most basic level - there was previously little to no red tape for trucks to cross from the continent to us, yet next year they will have to fill out more paperwork and we will have to pay more people to review that paperwork which right now is not necessary has not been noticed by you?

The fact that the cost of running just one lorry park in Kent (which their Brexiteer MP has whinged about being placed in his constituency) will more than outweigh any negligible benefit appears to have been ignored.

"the UK government expects businesses to complete hundreds of millions of additional import and export customs declarations - an official estimate of around 400 million was later revised down to 215 million - as a result of Brexit, at a cost previously estimated by HM Revenue and Customs at anything up to £20bn a year."

And that's just the customs costs.

You think we've got price rises now due to a temporary blip? Just wait until that temporary blip hits the reality of what's coming on January 1st. Get used to potatoes.

If you read my post you can see I mentioned red tape [and Chopley raising that issue recently]

But how do you know the border red tape is not at the EU's insistence as they are worried about imports from us undercutting their set up ? [a bit like the gray imports issue from years back]

And you really don't need to try and make these discussions personal, just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're gullible fools who have fallen for something - why not keep it civil? Otherwise I've made a mistake engaging with this thread again.

I read the for and against posts and the remainer arguments remain unconvincing, and how they feel the EU will benefit the average person in the street is not coming across very clearly [ it's approach to bureaucracy is like the ukgc on steroids from where I'm sitting ]

 

[thr0b]

I won't waste my time typing the many, many positives of the EU, nor that the laws of the EU were in almost every single case approved by the EU's elected members, and that we were at the top of the table throughout.

I will simply put it this way; the Brexit campaign was based on lies and run by liars. Liars who have variously been found in contempt of parliament, have links to Russian oligarchs, who run hedge funds who will benefit massively from us crashing out without trade deals, based on a referendum which had no legal force and has been found to have been gamed from the start by foreign actors. The current government has only this morning told people they should return to working in offices at the height of a pandemic, simply to protect the economy, not out of any change in the medical advice. Their own medical advisor said only yesterday there is no reason to amend the work from home advice. Johnson this morning said "We listen to advice, but we make the decisions."

And you put your trust in this shower.

You Brexiteers can own this. If it works out, great. I'll be shocked, but I'll be happy.

But admit it to yourself; the course is insanity. Steer away from the right-wing media, look directly at reports from international sources. We're a fucking laughing stock of a nation with a currency now being treated as that of an emerging nation.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But how do you know the border red tape is not at the EU's insistence as they are worried about imports from us undercutting their set up ? [a bit like the gray imports issue from years back]

The border 'red tape' was inevitable mack, it's been inevitable ever since the decision was made (on May's watch, the 'ardent remainer'......) to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union.

At the time both the EU and the 'Remoaners' said (this was years ago now, remember) - 'Holy shit folks, there's going to be a hell of a lot of form filling required as a result of this approach, you're gonna need some big ass lorry parks in Kent, tens of thousands of extra staff to cope with all the extra paperwork, a load of extra customs infrastructure, and you're going to add billions of pounds per year to the cost of doing business with the EU, as well as slowing it all down'

What was the Brexiteer answer to that? Project Fear.

And now where are we? That's exactly what's happening.

As dan said above, lies on top of lies on top of lies, and now the tower of lies is coming crashing down. Truth always wins in the end.

 

[thr0b]

The amazing thing is, they're not even trying to hide that they're lying anymore.

They're not even bothered about breaking the law. Attempting to shut down parliament.

This week, Johnson chucked one of his MPs out of the party for not voting in his incompetent tame mate to the security committee. A vote which was not Johnson's right to demand (and that was set in law in 2013.)

Now why would he want a tame yes-man on the team which could block the release of the Russia report if it's chairman wanted?

 

[mack341]

I won't waste my time typing the many, many positives of the EU, nor that the laws of the EU were in almost every single case approved by the EU's elected members, and that we were at the top of the table throughout.

I will simply put it this way; the Brexit campaign was based on lies and run by liars. Liars who have variously been found in contempt of parliament, have links to Russian oligarchs, who run hedge funds who will benefit massively from us crashing out without trade deals, based on a referendum which had no legal force and has been found to have been gamed from the start by foreign actors. The current government has only this morning told people they should return to working in offices at the height of a pandemic, simply to protect the economy, not out of any change in the medical advice. Their own medical advisor said only yesterday there is no reason to amend the work from home advice. Johnson this morning said "We listen to advice, but we make the decisions."

And you put your trust in this shower.

You Brexiteers can own this. If it works out, great. I'll be shocked, but I'll be happy.

But admit it to yourself; the course is insanity. Steer away from the right-wing media, look directly at reports from international sources. We're a fucking laughing stock of a nation with a currency now being treated as that of an emerging nation.

I did say that I don't have massive faith in our leaders and decision makers to deliver on their goals/speeches, but the brexit vote was not about that. It's two sets of politicians making laws, one you can theoretically control/directly influence through democracy and the other you cannot.

I bet if every country had a referendum you'd be surprised at the results, Poland has just re-elected a president who's not exactly the biggest fan of the EU. And it's only going to grow if the EU go down their United states of europe road, [which influential people like verhofstadt push for] centralising more power from the various member states.

It could be that the EU has been blamed for things that the UK govt could have handled differently/better, either in the veto stage or implementation. [due to incompetence or not being bothered]

 

[Slottery]

Just for outsider is bit weird to follow this whole show, finding some news and negotiations (or that these don't seem to exist) quite entertaining.

For some UK peeps i know, it seems not be really great thing as it's not that easy anymore to spend most of the year in Europe where you bought a property years ago for your retirement days and seem that in few months you are threatened like any other 3rd country people with Visa requirements and max stays and many other day to day things like health care and others.

Hope everything goes well, just wonder these negotiations where no much seem to happen together with some weird requests to re-negotiate something what's agreed years ago. Probably not much different for me to travel UK 2-5 times a year for short period.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

For some UK peeps i know, it seems not be really great thing as it's not that easy anymore to spend most of the year in Europe where you bought a property years ago for your retirement days and seem that in few months you are threatened like any other 3rd country people with Visa requirements and max stays and many other day to day things like health care and others.

Sounds like more PROJECT FEAR to me.

Oh, wait.......

 

[goatwack]

I mean he may have had a disastrous latter half to his tenure & been a War Criminal but Tony Blair makes a somewhat truthful point. Even if just to pipe up and attempt to stay relevant

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Problem is as mentioned these politicians won't back down on their timeframes as it simply won't affect them negatively anyway. I'm all for sticking to a pledge but there are some rather powerful outside factors at play - e.g a global health crisis not seen in 300 years

So it would be nice for the bravado to stop, personally I couldn't care less about 18-30 holidays but most certainly like this shit-show to at least be salvaged to some degree, even if it meant another 12 months. Because what's another 12 months eh, after (what seems like) two decades' worth of wrangling

 

[thr0b]

The simplest way to look at it is right now you have a bunch of rights.

On 1st January, there is nothing to stop the Tory party tearing up every one of those hard-earned rights that doesn’t suit their ideology. They’re in power for four more years. Don’t even consider that they won’t try.

 

[goatwack]

The simplest way to look at it is right now you have a bunch of rights.

On 1st January, there is nothing to stop the Tory party tearing up every one of those hard-earned rights that doesn’t suit their ideology. They’re in power for four more years. Don’t even consider that they won’t try.

I am fully aware that come December the posturing will stop, and our revered leaders will throw us (EU rabble) under the bus, to set an example if anything. Of that I am certain

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A sobering economic assessment from the filthy scaremongering Remoaner left wing rag the, erm, hang on, The Financial Times.

--------------------------------

Britain is about to discover the hard way that while Leavers were sincere in many of their political beliefs about Brexit, their economic arguments were, and are still, a costly and damaging sham.

 

[thr0b]

Sell to the EU today? Easy.
Do it on January 1st?

sunlit uplands.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Looks like TAKING BACK CONTROL to me.

British businesses must be absolutely delighted with the extra £7bn in costs per year (recurring) they'll be saddled with, and all the extra paperwork and administration they'll have to do as well.

Mind you, the total cost of Brexit so far has already exceeded the UK's lifetime contributions to the EU (i.e. between the dates it joined and left), and it's only going to get worse.

 

[thr0b]

Looks like TAKING BACK CONTROL to me.

British businesses must be absolutely delighted with the extra £7bn in costs per year (recurring) they'll be saddled with, and all the extra paperwork and administration they'll have to do as well.

Mind you, the total cost of Brexit so far has already exceeded the UK's lifetime contributions to the EU (i.e. between the dates it joined and left), and it's only going to get worse.

STOP TARKING ARE CONTRY DOWN!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's stuff like this that's going to be happening on a near daily basis between now and the end of the year.

Nothing massive by itself, nothing earth-shattering, and it'll be done quietly, without fanfare, but add all these changes together, 'The Brexit Of Small Things' as it's known as (I say again, no one ever claimed it would be 'THE END OF THE WORLD'), and it all points towards everyone's lives getting shitter, and more inconvenient, and things costing more, right across the board.

Endless downsides, no upsides, unless you're a massively wealthy disaster capitalist.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is a good, and brief summary. The Leave campaign could never tell the truth, because if they did, they wouldn't have won.

 

[Kroffe]

This is a good, and brief summary. The Leave campaign could never tell the truth, because if they did, they wouldn't have won.

View attachment 137131

Even with all that complaining he still rates brexit 2/2.

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[goatwack]

It must be tiring being so right all the time, even four years after the fact

Just surprised our all-knowing Remainer friends envisaged a seamless transition and trade nirvana overnight!

Might have to put those croissants on hold for a while guys

 

[Slottery]

These things shouldn't really come as surprise to anyone who is old enough to vote. It sounds kind of logical that you are not part of these agreements anymore after you decided yourself to leave them. Yes, bit more paperwork and some extra costs which didn't exist in EU but what else could have be expected? Now there is freedom to make these wanted trade deals and control everything without having to listen EU, that's what people voted i guess?

 

[thr0b]

It must be tiring being so right all the time, even four years after the fact

Just surprised our all-knowing Remainer friends envisaged a seamless transition and trade nirvana overnight!

Might have to put those croissants on hold for a while guys

we didn’t. the Brexit campaign said all would be peaches and cream. It promised oven ready trade deals. It promised the German car manufacturers would ensure we were okay. It promised that life would be better.

Own the shit you voted for. Don’t try passing the buck to those who said it would be shit now it’s turning out to be.

 

[paul7388]

Me personally i would have chose remain.

But the vote was done at a time when there was mass hysteria about immigration. Many would have voted leave even if told they would be a lot worse off.

But also don't suddenly think that the ones that voted leave to take back control of things thought they would be so much better off they knew things would be tougher for a good while but hopefully after time the country would recover and be better off.

But now it kind of does not matter so much. The handling and locking down the country for so long for Coronavirus will have done more damage to peoples lives and the economy than Brexit ever will.

 

[thr0b]

But now it kind of does not matter so much. The handling and locking down the country for so long for Coronavirus will have done more damage to peoples lives and the economy than Brexit ever will.

Which is why it makes absolutely no sense that Johnson didn’t extend the transition when the option was there. It would’ve protected jobs at a time of crisis. There was absolutely no good reason not to do so.

What was in it for him to not extend it?

One day there’ll be a public enquiry into all of this. And I think criminal trials will result.

 

[goatwack]

These things shouldn't really come as surprise to anyone who is old enough to vote. It sounds kind of logical that you are not part of these agreements anymore after you decided yourself to leave them. Yes, bit more paperwork and some extra costs which didn't exist in EU but what else could have be expected? Now there is freedom to make these wanted trade deals and control everything without having to listen EU, that's what people voted i guess?

That's the problem you see. Half the country were duped, and far to stupid to make up their own minds, we were hoodwinked by Project Fear in some hallucinatory trance whereby didn't know what we were doing....such as voting to leave the EU in all its unadulterated glory.

We also never for one second thought rebuilding Trade Agreements would take a long time, probably the best part of a generation, thinking blindly that everything would be BETTER OVERNIGHT!

So now we find ourselves flummoxed at our own stupidity. Shucks!

Me especially, I must be the thickest c*** out there wanting to sabotage my own citizenship for shits and giggles, but then imagine not wanting to sell out principles for the easy life behind the EU curtain. Tsk!

Who knew leaving the EU could be fraught with so much difficulty. I would like to rescind my original vote if at all possible, I clearly didn't know what I was doing. The comparisons with Trump voters is just all too real for me!

 

[paul7388]

Which is why it makes absolutely no sense that Johnson didn’t extend the transition when the option was there. It would’ve protected jobs at a time of crisis. There was absolutely no good reason not to do so.

What was in it for him to not extend it?

One day there’ll be a public enquiry into all of this. And I think criminal trials will result.

The jobs are gone tho. Things go tits up then they can blame it on the virus.

I think it should have been extended. But we will have to see what happens, Remember tho this virus has destroyed a lot in Europe as well. Some countries there can no longer afford to piss about making deals harder for themselves. So we might find soon that things do not turn out as bad as we thought.

Like ourselves the unemployment has shot up through Europe and businesses are folding. There will now be pressure from some countries to do what is best for everyone not just to go F*** the UK.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

We also never for one second thought rebuilding Trade Agreements would take a long time, probably the best part of a generation, thinking blindly that everything would be BETTER OVERNIGHT!

So for example then goaty, given that the entire Leave campaign was essentially predicated on 'the easiest trade deal in history', 'the exact same benefits as we have now', 'they need us more than we need them', 'the German car manufacturers/French cheese makers/etc will never allow no deal to happen' and so on and so forth - you looked at that and thought, 'I think all these people are wrong and it will actually be very difficult to negotiate new trade agreements, possibly even taking a generation, but I will vote Leave anyway, despite the fact my personal feeling is that everyone advocating for it on the basis of trade benefits is mistaken'?

EDIT - I mean literally no one in the Leave campaign argued for it on the basis of all the shit that we're seeing now, did they?

 

[goatwack]

So for example then goaty, given that the entire Leave campaign was essentially predicated on 'the easiest trade deal in history', 'the exact same benefits as we have now', 'they need us more than we need them', 'the German car manufacturers/French cheese makers/etc will never allow no deal to happen' and so on and so forth - you looked at that and thought, 'I think all these people are wrong and it will actually be very difficult to negotiate new trade agreements, possibly even taking a generation, but I will vote Leave anyway, despite the fact my personal feeling is that everyone advocating for it on the basis of trade benefits is mistaken'?

EDIT - I mean literally no one in the Leave campaign argued for it on the basis of all the shit that we're seeing now, did they?

That may have been the official tagline and hard-sell, I also believe many 'voters' saw through the political bluster and voted Leave despite the impending financial hardship, yes

And I never believed those advocated we remain are mistaken in their doomsday projection, no

 

[mack341]

So for example then goaty, given that the entire Leave campaign was essentially predicated on 'the easiest trade deal in history', 'the exact same benefits as we have now', 'they need us more than we need them', 'the German car manufacturers/French cheese makers/etc will never allow no deal to happen' and so on and so forth - you looked at that and thought, 'I think all these people are wrong and it will actually be very difficult to negotiate new trade agreements, possibly even taking a generation, but I will vote Leave anyway, despite the fact my personal feeling is that everyone advocating for it on the basis of trade benefits is mistaken'?

EDIT - I mean literally no one in the Leave campaign argued for it on the basis of all the shit that we're seeing now, did they?

I don't think it was ever cast as 'the easiest trade deal in history' we are negotiating with idealogues, there was always a chance they'd ignore the self-inflicted harm to their own industries in pursuit of damaging the uk's economy because we voted to leave.

They have agreed free trade deals with japan and canada but won't do the same deal with the uk because we are physically nearer to them


Guy Verhofstadt warns MPs of 'two decade' Brexit ratification - bbc 2018

Brexit could take as long as two decades to get EU approval unless the two sides agree a "precise" blueprint in October, Guy Verhofstadt has said.

 

[thr0b]

That’s... not true.

The UK team has been tasked with cakeism. The Tory government forgets we are a third country. The EU owe us nothing. The EU is protecting the interests of the EU, not the insignificant island off its coast.

The EU is doing exactly what it was set up to do; protect its members as part of a wider union.

Leave the union, don’t expect the benefits.

The trade deal the EU has with e.g Canada and Japan took many years to negotiate and are still not as good as the deals member states have with each other.

 

[mack341]

That’s... not true.

The UK team has been tasked with cakeism. The Tory government forgets we are a third country. The EU owe us nothing. The EU is protecting the interests of the EU, not the insignificant island off its coast.

The EU is doing exactly what it was set up to do; protect its members as part of a wider union.

Leave the union, don’t expect the benefits.

The trade deal the EU has with e.g Canada and Japan took many years to negotiate and are still not as good as the deals member states have with each other.

what's not true?

We've mentioned to them the free trade deals with canada and japan, and they said no can do even though they export more to us than japan and canada [eu exports to japan 64 billion euros; uk 372 billion] so they must want tariffs on that €372...hence shooting themselves in the foot