Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

Clear Brexit feeling tonight as the UK got 0 points on the Eurovision Song Contest ?

that many! didn't watch it but maybe we can now face up to reality & give up entering

 

[Kroffe]

They should have followed the guide.

 

[mcgameboy]

Fair enough, I appreciate Brexit and Reality need to be kept a safe distance from each other

I think the same about me and my ability to read every time I visit this thread.....

 

[dunover]

Clear Brexit feeling tonight as the UK got 0 points on the Eurovision Song Contest ?

They got zero points simply because, as with every year, the UK entry was fucking shite. A static dog turd on stage with a backing track played over it would have got more points. Considering the musical pedigree of the UK, second to none, isn't the fact they even enter it a bit like Man. City entering a pub football tournament?

 

[dpp00]

in fairness wasn't as bad as our irish entry that didnt even qualify

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Short memories over at The Express.

Anyway, it's just Spain taking back control.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

How it started.

How it's going.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And here's today's......

'Brexit red tape' being, of course, the natural result of choosing to leave the Customs Union and EU Single Market.

It's understandable that the Brexity Torygraph is pitching this as 'The EU doing this to us' when of course, we did it to ourselves.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

David Frost must be really upset with whoever negotiated that agreement and hailed it as a great success for the UK.

This has always been one of Brexit's biggest problems, the 'flavour' of Brexit that Theresa May decided we must have (hard Brexit, out of the Customs Union and Single Market) meant there was going to have to be a border somewhere.

The only variable was where it was going to end up, and wherever it ended up, it was going to cause a shitload of problems.

Everything else was hot air and lies.

 

[mack341]

In order to fix a problem you've got to recognise/acknowledge it, all 'paperwork' demands are capable of being improved, simplified etc... or the uk govt could provide subsidies and incentives, some of that 10 billion net fee we saved can be used to help.

Meanwhile i believe more trade deals have been made, norway was one.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Meanwhile i believe more trade deals have been made, norway was one.

Yes, the deal that's worse than the one we previously had as an EU member.

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Norway’s minister of agriculture and food, Olaug Bollestad, said it had been vital for the centre-right coalition government to protect its small but politically important agriculture sector from the threat of cheaper British beef and cheese.

She added that her Christian Democrat party had not wanted to reward the UK with better access to Norway than it enjoyed as an EU member state.

-------------------

David Henig, a former UK government trade official who is now director of the UK Trade Policy Project, said: “This UK-EEA free trade agreement provides better trading conditions than World Trade Organization terms, though with considerably more trade barriers when compared with the previous single market relationship."

“There are some useful provisions for UK business such as on professional qualifications or digital trade, but there will also be many difficulties as we see with the similar UK-EU trade and cooperation agreement. Overall this is quite a standard free trade agreement, with limited economic value.”

 

[mack341]

It's sensible for norway to protect it's farmers, and trade deals between individual countries are obviously easier to agree, fairer whereas the eu will demand a lot more conformity and regulations in return for access, things that add costs, and can favour the multinationals who spend millions lobbying the 'democratic deficient' EU.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's sensible for norway to protect it's farmers, and trade deals between individual countries are obviously easier to agree, fairer whereas the eu will demand a lot more conformity and regulations in return for access, things that add costs, and can favour the multinationals who spend millions lobbying the 'democratic deficient' EU.

That's great mack, but where's the stuff that Brexit was supposed to make better?

The current count is 178 downsides, 12 upsides.

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[mack341]

what's better than having a nice brexit chat of a sunday evening, if I get the time I will check out these 'negs' - save to say we're not in normal times so comparisons with previous years is not straightforward. If it comes down to the EU trying to make life difficult, a punishment tactic to deter others, then that simply reinforces my belief the eu is a force for bad and toxic.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Another piece of comical revisionism from The Torygraph.

This is increasingly becoming the narrative now, that the awful Deal was 'forced' upon the UK by a 'bullying' EU and that's why it's a load of shit, and why the UK is well within its rights to break international law in unilaterally breaching it.

Note how it's become the EU's Brexit Treaty, like we didn't actually negotiate it and sign it voluntarily.....

SIX MONTHS AGO we were told this was a fantastic deal for Britain and it got forced through the Commons in record time.

BEFORE:

AFTER:

 

[mack341]

I read yesterday's telegraph comment piece, their view was the problem started with Theresa's plan for a NI protocol, the EU seized upon it and boris wasn't able to negotiate much of an alternative, as the EU insisted it would be no deal otherwise. But for the EU to say it was about protecting the good friday agreement was laughable as it ignored the unionist side/interests. In the end I predict the EU will have to be more flexible re products from britain to northern Ireland.

There was also another article from a former irish diplomat that ireland may wish to exit the EU at some point, the new tax laws for big international corporations are going to have an effect on their economy, and they've lost some of their fishing grounds/catch percentages to the french and dutch to make up for their loss in uk waters. Plus their membership fees have gone up.

 

[pinnit2014]

I read yesterday's telegraph comment piece, their view was the problem started with Theresa's plan for a NI protocol, the EU seized upon it and boris wasn't able to negotiate much of an alternative, as the EU insisted it would be no deal otherwise. But for the EU to say it was about protecting the good friday agreement was laughable as it ignored the unionist side/interests. In the end I predict the EU will have to be more flexible re products from britain to northern Ireland.

There was also another article from a former irish diplomat that ireland may wish to exit the EU at some point, the new tax laws for big international corporations are going to have an effect on their economy, and they've lost some of their fishing grounds/catch percentages to the french and dutch to make up for their loss in uk waters. Plus their membership fees have gone up.

Might all be moot anyway in years to come with the SF bandwagon continuing to gather pace down south

In terms of selling it to the people, they'll just do what they did with the Lisbon Treaty: we'll referendum you until you say yes (which, incidentally is exactly the SNP's view on their own one)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nice to see Johnson actually get asked a tough (albeit entirely fair) question about the Northern Ireland Protocol.

The answer of course, it bluster and flannel.

A year ago you said there'd be a border him the Irish Sea - and I quote you "over my dead body" - and here we both are, there is a border in the Irish Sea. Were you lying when you said no border or did you not understand the treaty you signed over Brexit?

 

[mack341]

That's a bit of 'gotcha' or playing to the remainer media gallery type question, he's hardly going to say 'yes i was lying on that issue', she needs to ask less leading questions, from the answers provided the public can then judge the rights and wrongs.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well the thing is mack only one of those two options can be true, either Johnson deliberately lied, or he didn't understand the Brexit treaty he'd signed, there is no other explanation.

It's not new, this graphic was doing the rounds in 2018, people who understood the issue understood the choices and what they meant.

Johnson either didn't understand, or he lied about it.

 

[mack341]

Who looks the bad guy if there are food shortages due to 'rules must be obeyed' ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Who looks the bad guy if there are food shortages due to 'rules must be obeyed' ?

Hmmm, I dunno, how about the person who negotiated, signed, implemented and enshrined into law the treaty that had the potential to lead to food shortages?

None of what's happening now is a surprise, it's all a direct result of Johnson's 'oven ready' Brexit deal being implemented.

 

[dunover]

I have noticed there has been no Haywards Strong pickled onions for months now. Silverskin, spicy, standard but no Strong ones.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I have noticed there has been no Haywards Strong pickled onions for months now. Silverskin, spicy, standard but no Strong ones.

You need to have sinister shadowy underworld connections to get those sorts of pickled onions now. Yet another Brexit calamity.

A single jar can fetch up to fifty pounds, bloke round here called Dodgy Dave sells them out of the back of his Ford Transit, along with heroin and guns.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Onions aside, this is when Johnson was told by (the rather lovely) Sophy Ridge what his deal would entail when it came to NI checks and he was literally just like, 'No that's wrong we won't be having any checks'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thoughts on the UK/Australian trade deal from the Australians themselves, in this case the acting Australian PM Michael McCormack. (Who very much looks like he's just been given an early birthday present.)

'Well the big winners here are the Australians'
'But we're hearing that a lot of UK meat producers are very worried about what the deal means for them'
'Well I don't really care about that, I just look out for the Australians'

I've seen one commentator say words to the effect of, 'This is what a trade deal would look like if the Australians just wrote it for themselves with no British input at all'.

 

[mack341]

Any specifics, we are a large importer of food already so i'm guessing this puts aussie producers on the same terms of access as the eu member state's ones. I'd doubt oz would have accepted anything less, so it just comes down to what market access we have gained in return.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It actually gives Australian farmers significant advantages, the deal really does just look like we gave them everything they could possibly want and in return kind of got, not much, really. (This would perhaps explain why the UK Government hasn't been making much of a fuss about it.)

This is what UK farmers will now be up against. Of course we could, as a BUCCANEERING FREE TRADING NATION lower our own standards to compete, but then our biggest market, the EU, will be wanting none of what we actually produce.

(Plus there's the fact that due to the sheer vastness of Australia, they can farm in ways which are completely impossible and/or ruinous to the UK landscape and countryside.)

As it was astutely put in The Times. All this for 0.02% of GDP, and even there that 0.02% will only be realised over many years.

 

[Kroffe]

Do people even remember how it was pre-brexit?
I remember.

 

[mack341]

It actually gives Australian farmers significant advantages, the deal really does just look like we gave them everything they could possibly want and in return kind of got, not much, really. (This would perhaps explain why the UK Government hasn't been making much of a fuss about it.)

This is what UK farmers will now be up against. Of course we could, as a BUCCANEERING FREE TRADING NATION lower our own standards to compete, but then our biggest market, the EU, will be wanting none of what we actually produce.

(Plus there's the fact that due to the sheer vastness of Australia, they can farm in ways which are completely impossible and/or ruinous to the UK landscape and countryside.)

View attachment 155874

As it was astutely put in The Times. All this for 0.02% of GDP, and even there that 0.02% will only be realised over many years.

View attachment 155875

Hopefully consumers will take into account the animal welfare issues, meat is probably going to go under the environmental microscope further as well. 500 million is not exactly chicken feed, gdp from new trade and exports surely makes a difference. Silly to make a comparison between visa rights and the eu movement rights, which were clearly unsustainable and putting services under more strain, any economic success would draw thousands to the uk thus flooding the labour market, at the same time as raising housing costs due to demand.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

and the eu movement rights, which were clearly unsustainable and putting services under more strain

Putting several of our industries under strain as well...... Not enough patriotic Brits stepping up to the plate, it would seem.

The shortages are starting to bite sooner than expected because the pandemic prompted many EU nationals to return home and they cannot easily be replaced by other migrant workers, as most of the jobs fall below the skill and salary levels needed to qualify for a visa under the new regime.

“We hit the wall in terms of labour at Easter,” said James Hook, managing director of PD Hook Hatcheries, which supplies half the chicks and a third of the chickens sold in the UK. His farms had around 80 posts vacant at present, double the usual level, but the “pinch point” was in factories where shortages were more acute. He has cut production by around 10 per cent because “there aren’t enough people to take what we can give them”.

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[mack341]

Wetherspoons last week and factory farming this, hardly things people wanted to remain in the EU over. Supermmarkets don't seem to be struggling either so their margins must be healthy, they might have to import cheap chickens from elsewhere if the uk supply runs out, but seeing the broiler sheds where they are so packed in they can't move it's not something I'd miss. Just because some sector or product is adversely affected doesn't mean the policy is wrong on the whole.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

UK farmers report how Brexit is a 'disaster' and they can't pick their crops, will stop growing them, and how trees and fruits are dying in their fields.

The reason? A shortage of EU labour, and Brits don't want to do the work.

The result? We'll be importing more of our food at a higher cost and be increasingly dependent on those imports.

 

[mack341]

These opinion pieces are okay but they never go into specifics, what is the hourly rate etc.., repetitive or back breaking work would need to match factory or warehouse rates. If it's seasonal then the job is short, not sure anyone would object to a visa temporary work scheme, I'm sure jersey has worked that way for their picking.

 

[mack341]

From sky:

Lord Frost told the committee the "basic problem" was the "chilling effect on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland is pretty strong".
"Until we began implementing the Protocol nobody could quite know that," he claimed.
Lord Frost urged the EU to adopt more "pragmatism", adding: "If their approach is simply to say 'you must just implement the EU customs code as if this were any other external frontier of the EU' then we obviously have a problem.
Mr Johnson also reiterated that he is prepared to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol.
That clause is intended to be used when the Protocol is unexpectedly leading to serious "economic, societal or environmental difficulties".
It allows either the UK or the EU to act unilaterally to avoid those difficulties.
The PM has said the current implementation of the Protocol is having a "damaging impact" on the people of Northern Ireland.

 

[Kroffe]

Lord Frost says the problem is..... chilling...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Frost has that stunning character combination of stupidity, ignorance, arrogance and exceptionalism that makes him uniquely unsuited to the role he's found himself.

He really is a man who's walked past a sign saying 'LAKE AHEAD' with his eyes open, then closed his eyes and tried to wish the lake away, carried on walking, fallen into the lake, and then started moaning about how wet the lake is whilst shrieking about how dare the lake make him wet, doesn't the lake know who he is?

I mean, sheesh, he literally negotiated this thing and now he's saying he's quite surprised at how it's ended up functioning......

In online casino terms he's signed up to a new casino, taken a sign up bonus, and then immediately tried to withdraw his whole balance and then called foul when the casino points to all the terms and conditions he agreed to. Except in this case, HE ACTUALLY HELPED WRITE THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

Absolute Peak Brexit, right there.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

 

[dunover]

View attachment 156056

Well something isn't adding up here, because the colossal insane levels of migration from the EU would suggest there's plenty of workers...

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[pinnit2014]

If there were more Poles in this country I'd have a better chance (and standard) of getting work done on my house.

 

[dunover]

If there were more Poles in this country I'd have a better chance (and standard) of getting work done on my house.

Why, is there a shortage of scaffolding?

 

[pinnit2014]

No.

 

[ternur]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've found a Brexit dividend, but it's not for us lot, unfortunately.

The tracker is currently running at 194 downsides versus 12 upsides. Now I'm no scientist, but I reckon that makes a net downside number of 182.

BEFORE:

AFTER:

 

[paul7388]

I've found a Brexit dividend, but it's not for us lot, unfortunately.

The tracker is currently running at 194 downsides versus 12 upsides. Now I'm no scientist, but I reckon that makes a net downside number of 182.

View attachment 156099

BEFORE:

View attachment 156097

AFTER:

View attachment 156098

To be honest what you say might be true.

But as soon as i see it is from the express it loses all credibility.

Surprised you would even quote anything from there.

The news source that all winter warns of severe blizzards and Britain faced with severe snow. When in reality there is a little snow forecast for top of mountains.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Further sources.... The Express is notable because they were one of the most 'Brexity' publications when it came to PROJECT FEAR, NOTHING BUT UPSIDES, BETTER DEAL THAN WE HAVE NOW, WE HOLD ALL THE CARDS etc.

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[dunover]

Further sources.... The Express is notable because they were one of the most 'Brexity' publications when it came to PROJECT FEAR, NOTHING BUT UPSIDES, BETTER DEAL THAN WE HAVE NOW, WE HOLD ALL THE CARDS etc.

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I am with EE and not affected - I believe this is for NEW customers after a certain date?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I am with EE and not affected - I believe this is for NEW customers after a certain date?

Brexit upside, only a proportion of Brits get shafted

 

[dunover]

Brexit upside, only a proportion of Brits get shafted

Maybe, but I still cannot get Haywards Strong Pickled Onions.

 

[mack341]

That's an easy policy for labour to offer to bring back then if the tory's aren't minded too, they're pretty short of ideas these days unless it has an identity politics angle to it.