Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

The Commonwealth as it is known today is only about a century old, so you don't need to go back to the old empire stuff. Did you study the history why the British Commonwealth was created (not just to replace the name British Empire)? What I can tell you is that the UK is still benefiting today from the original treaty, although in a watered-down grade due to the follow-up treaties that were signed.

Germany was never a colonial power, however, they were responsible for the two worst wars in our history. Nobody says though..... "oh we can't go over the old WW stuff now"..... your parades in the UK every year are a clear sign that there are many people who can't, rightly so, just forget it.

I might have to remind you that some of the largest companies today were founded during the 19th and early 20th century. So they just continued to exploit the "third world" in the imperialistic way they did during the colonial times. The difference is that are paying them a few bread crumbs. That has not stopped until today and never will completely, and surely is not limited to the EU. Lately, there are some single projects and initiatives here or there, but nothing that would make up for the losses those countries suffered over centuries.

What you can't absolve the UK off is the misery you brought to those countries (neither can Spain, the Netherlands, France and Portugal). The forced wealth transfer from the colonies was astronomical if you calculate it in today's money. That is just as much a historical fact as Germany being the perpetrator for the two biggest wars and some of the worst human atrocities. You simply can't eradicate history.

According to wikipedia:

"Short-lived attempts of colonization by

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had occurred in preceding centuries, but crucial colonial efforts only began in 1884 with the

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. Claiming much of the left-over uncolonized areas in the

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, Germany managed to build the third largest

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at the time, after the

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and

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"



I think you and chopley are missing my original point, preferring to instead go over old ground about the cruelties of the past. Probably every european country has made a lot of wealth via unsavoury methods, I think the netherlands had a lot to do with diamond mining etc..I think belgium had an empire, spain had something to do with the philippines, then there were the opium wars with china and the boxer rebellion...

But today, as things stand, I don't believe the uk parliament bosses around the commonwealth countries, unlike the approach the EU takes to its subjects/subordinates, that was the point I was making. What would be so wrong about a similar system for europe rather than the EU straitjacket?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well you can't have it both ways.

On the one hand it's 'We won two world wars, we'll be fine' but on the other hand it's 'Ahhh that's history you can't keep going on about that'.

Past 'glories' = Good
Past atrocities = Let's just forget about them

And once again, we are not a 'subject' or 'subordinate' of the EU, we are (albeit for not much longer), a full and equal member of the EU.

 

[mack341]

Just to add, through the relevant centuries [maybe 1500-1900] do you think the average brit was having a high old time, deep poverty and all sorts of cruel things and exploitations were going on in england too. And we've really only had a full democracy for 100 years as well, people vote to try and improve things, but stupid politicians have been making things worse for donkey's years, hence brexit, the peasant's revolt pt2

 

[Harry_BKK]

According to wikipedia:

"Short-lived attempts of colonization by

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had occurred in preceding centuries, but crucial colonial efforts only began in 1884 with the

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. Claiming much of the left-over uncolonized areas in the

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, Germany managed to build the third largest

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at the time, after the

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and

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"

View attachment 117819

I think you and chopley are missing my original point, preferring to instead go over old ground about the cruelties of the past. Probably every european country has made a lot of wealth via unsavoury methods, I think the netherlands had a lot to do with diamond mining etc..I think belgium had an empire, spain had something to do with the philippines, then there were the opium wars with china and the boxer rebellion...

But today, as things stand, I don't believe the uk parliament bosses around the commonwealth countries, unlike the approach the EU takes to its subjects/subordinates, that was the point I was making. What would be so wrong about a similar system for europe rather than the EU straitjacket?

The third-largest in Africa which was seen as new age imperialism that came with the industrial revolution and had little to do with the early colonialism. Germany was never a proper colonial power. This is the map from 1914. It changed again quite a bit after WWI, e.g. the UK establishing protectorates in the ME.



What EU straightjacket? Every country has veto power in the EU parliament and most important decision pass with full votes only. I really don't know whether you read the EU statutes to understand how the union actually works.

 

[mack341]

Well you can't have it both ways.

On the one hand it's 'We won two world wars, we'll be fine' but on the other hand it's 'Ahhh that's history you can't keep going on about that'.

Past 'glories' = Good
Past atrocities = Let's just forget about them

And once again, we are not a 'subject' or 'subordinate' of the EU, we are (albeit for not much longer), a full and equal member of the EU.

Chopley whenever have I mentioned the 'glories' of the two world wars in relation to brexit?

We've carried on like subordinates, still are to some degree, begging for this or that crap deal, which will still leave us tied in close to the EU's commandments.

I know the uk parliament and how the country is run isn't the greatest performance of governance, but I just don't get this EU love affair, why'd we want to pay them billions every year to make laws for us and basically govern over us with their courts etc..

 

[mack341]

The third-largest in Africa which was seen as new age imperialism that came with the industrial revolution and had little to do with the early colonialism. Germany was never a proper colonial power. This is the map from 1914. It changed again quite a bit after WWI, e.g. the UK establishing protectorates in the ME.

View attachment 117824

What EU straightjacket? Every country has veto power in the EU parliament and most important decision pass with full votes only. I really don't know whether you read the EU statutes to understand how the union actually works.

How the hell did germany aquire territory in the far east, is that indonesia? It wasn't for want of trying or higher ethics that they didn't have an empire, probably more to do with their access to sea and naval power, plus land wars in europe occupying their thoughts. And hasn't germany only existed since the late 1800's? wasn't it prussia before then?

Anyway France had a huge empire so they must've carried out atrocities and exploitation, which again was my point, it wasn't just the uk/england.

 

[Harry_BKK]

How the hell did germany aquire territory in the far east, is that indonesia? It wasn't for want of trying or higher ethics that they didn't have an empire, probably more to do with their access to sea and naval power, plus land wars in europe occupying their thoughts. And hasn't germany only existed since the late 1800's? wasn't it prussia before then?

Anyway France had a huge empire so they must've carried out atrocities and exploitation, which again was my point, it wasn't just the uk/england.

Germany was for the longest periods a splintered assortment of counties and duchies (is that the correct word?) Some might have tried to colonize some territories but were never really successful. Most of them did not have access to the sea, except those in the North.

I said once here in this thread that up to the late 18th and even the start of the 19th century to go from Munich to Hamburg you had dozens and dozens of custom checkpoints. They joined mostly through marriage and only became unified in the second half of the 19th century under the rule of Prussia.

As for France, this is what I said in my earlier post.

"What you can't absolve the UK off is the misery you brought to those countries (neither can Spain, the Netherlands, France and Portugal). The forced wealth transfer from the colonies was astronomical if you calculate it in today's money."

 

[goatwack]

Goodness gracious, this song had a forebearing on our future, I just wasn't aware of its prophetic nature at the time

Who knew

 

[dunover]

The third-largest in Africa which was seen as new age imperialism that came with the industrial revolution and had little to do with the early colonialism. Germany was never a proper colonial power. This is the map from 1914. It changed again quite a bit after WWI, e.g. the UK establishing protectorates in the ME.

View attachment 117824

What EU straightjacket? Every country has veto power in the EU parliament and most important decision pass with full votes only. I really don't know whether you read the EU statutes to understand how the union actually works.

Fair play, we added a fair old chunk of the world to UK territory. Shouldn't have let the USA go so easily. After WW1 there was more added under UK administration, such as modern day Iraq, Kuwait and Palestine and the German colonies like Tanzania.
If we had added some European states after WW1 you could have had a good UK-led Europe and no need for Brexit or a poxy EU.

 

[mack341]

It's amazing how much influence one little island has had over the world, we gave birth to canada, australia, new zealand, the USA. The english language is the world's universal language. law, medicine, inventions, sport. Plenty of bad stuff too if you look for it, as with all nations...so to be now forced to take part in this bizarre EU experiment is mind boggling, and be told by our superiors [in political circles and in the press/media] that the alternative is a slow doomed existence, just feels like exaggerated bs and made up to keep us in, and scared to leave.

 

[goatwack]

Project Fear's getting ramped up to 11 in the next few months, hold on to your proverbial hat(s)

 

[dunover]

English will be banned as a second language by the EU after Brexit. As will UK music, football teams from European competition and Swizzels will only be exported to EFTA countries like Norway.

 

[goatwack]

I wish our national team was banned, God knows we'd be doing the world a favour

 

[ternur]

It's amazing how much influence one little island has had over the world, we gave birth to canada, australia, new zealand, the USA. The english language is the world's universal language. law, medicine, inventions, sport. Plenty of bad stuff too if you look for it, as with all nations...so to be now forced to take part in this bizarre EU experiment is mind boggling, and be told by our superiors [in political circles and in the press/media] that the alternative is a slow doomed existence, just feels like exaggerated bs and made up to keep us in, and scared to leave.

Regarding law. This is one thing I like about the UK leaving the EU. Common law and civil law systems are very different and often clash in many ways.

But then again, we still have the Irish. But they are well liked, I think we'll get along just fine

 

[ternur]

English will be banned as a second language by the EU after Brexit. As will UK music, football teams from European competition and Swizzels will only be exported to EFTA countries like Norway.

I believe English is an official language in Malta. It's a good thing, my french, german and italian skills are in poor shape.

But yes, the UK might even sink to the North Sea because of Brexit.

 

[mack341]

Regarding law. This is one thing I like about the UK leaving the EU. Common law and civil law systems are very different and often clash in many ways.

But then again, we still have the Irish. But they are well liked, I think we'll get along just fine

I'll take that as a mixed compliment, I misunderstood common law I thought it was grounded in elements of natural justice, the right to have your case heard by peers, to challenge an accuser etc.. but it seems it's more to do with following 'precedent', surely in europe they follow precedents and past case law too?

My experience of civil law in the uk is it's an expensive nightmare you'd stand no chance representing yourself but must pay someone upwards of £200 an hour to represent you, build a case etc...

The EU jargon and ouput seems, to a layman like me, very legalish in style...it's taking life backwards to the olden days when the average person [mainly through lack of education] wouldn't be able to understand the laws by which he is to be governed. These EU prononcements are deliberately written in complicated text that only lawyers [no offence] can understand and decipher.

 

[ternur]

I'll take that as a mixed compliment, I misunderstood common law I thought it was grounded in elements of natural justice, the right to have your case heard by peers, to challenge an accuser etc.. but it seems it's more to do with following 'precedent', surely in europe they follow precedents and past case law too?

My experience of civil law in the uk is it's an expensive nightmare you'd stand no chance representing yourself but must pay someone upwards of £200 an hour to represent you, build a case etc...

The EU jargon and ouput seems, to a layman like me, very legalish in style...it's taking life backwards to the olden days when the average person [mainly through lack of education] wouldn't be able to understand the laws by which he is to be governed. These EU prononcements are deliberately written in complicated text that only lawyers [no offence] can understand and decipher.

It's just different legal traditions and systems. In this sense, I've always viewed the UK as a sort of odd-ball in a group of Romano-Germanic based legal systems. But both of the them have the same origin, which is the ancient Roman law. You brits just had to be stubborn and develop your own system in the Middle Ages.

Civil law based systems mostly rely on codification vs. precedents. Case law is important, but has a slightly different role. From a lawyer's perpective there's no difference. You either decipher the jargon from the written laws and regulations or from the court transcripts (or both).

£200 per hour? That's cheap. I'd rather play VS freerolls than work for peanuts.

 

[goatwack]

Oooh look at mr fancy-shmancy lawyer over there

 

[Harry_BKK]

Fair play, we added a fair old chunk of the world to UK territory. Shouldn't have let the USA go so easily. After WW1 there was more added under UK administration, such as modern day Iraq, Kuwait and Palestine and the German colonies like Tanzania.
If we had added some European states after WW1 you could have had a good UK-led Europe and no need for Brexit or a poxy EU.

Well, the Commonwealth was a trading "bloc" that was at the time much larger than the early EU. IIRC, your government thought hard about joining the EEC or whatever it was called at the beginning

 

[mack341]

edit

 

[steveh35]

English will be banned as a second language by the EU after Brexit. As will UK music, football teams from European competition and Swizzels will only be exported to EFTA countries like Norway.

Juncker already said he wanted he thought English was losing it's clout.

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[mack341]

It's just different legal traditions and systems. In this sense, I've always viewed the UK as a sort of odd-ball in a group of Romano-Germanic based legal systems. But both of the them have the same origin, which is the ancient Roman law. You brits just had to be stubborn and develop your own system in the Middle Ages.

Civil law based systems mostly rely on codification vs. precedents. Case law is important, but has a slightly different role. From a lawyer's perpective there's no difference. You either decipher the jargon from the written laws and regulations or from the court transcripts (or both).

£200 per hour? That's cheap. I'd rather play VS freerolls than work for peanuts.

I certainly wouldn't bet my bottom dollar that uk law was the best, in the commercial areas it seems to attract a lot of worldwide custom..must be a fascinating occupation in a way, each case tells a story even in a contract wrangle.

yeah those figures of £200 were from a decade ago, I don't know what they'd be now, it soon adds up though. These days you can approach some barristers directly yourself for advice on your case merits/ representation at a hearing, that can save you some dough by cutting out the solicitor but you'd need to do all the paperwork and forms yourself...anyway you know all this! Tenur what's your area of law again, I'm sure you mentioned it before but it's slipped my memory

 

[goatwack]

It'll be Mandarin that future generations will be using if anything, certainly not French

 

[ternur]

I certainly wouldn't bet my bottom dollar that uk law was the best, in the commercial areas it seems to attract a lot of worldwide custom..must be a fascinating occupation in a way, each case tells a story even in a contract wrangle.

yeah those figures of £200 were from a decade ago, I don't know what they'd be now, it soon adds up though. These days you can approach some barristers directly yourself for advice on your case merits/ representation at a hearing, that can save you some dough by cutting out the solicitor but you'd need to do all the paperwork and forms yourself...anyway you know all this! Tenur what's your area of law again, I'm sure you mentioned it before but it's slipped my memory

IPRs, data protection and contracts mostly. Commercial transactions in general. But I'll sell my soul for anything, it's a required trait in this profession

 

[mack341]

Well, the Commonwealth was a trading "bloc" that was at the time much larger than the early EU. IIRC, your government thought hard about joining the EEC or whatever it was called at the beginning

Ted heath was a europhile and probably also a *****phile too regardless of that 'nick' case blurring the whole thng. Funnily enough the labour party opposed membership of the eec then, thinking if the tories and big business were so in favour of joining it was unlikely to be to their union worker's benefit.