Brexit - whats the difference.....

[Daavid63]

You know that breaking a legally binding agreement on the international stage whilst you're trying to negotiate other legally binding agreements on the international stage isn't a great look, right?

ChopleyIOM serious question.
Do you share a house with Owen Jones and Femi Oulawole?

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[Spikie]

I live in the UK , work in Europe (legally) after Brexit , and still think it was the right decision.

I work with people from all over Europe, and the UK are by far not the only country that have many people that would vote to leave .

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I find it hard to understand how remainers, who are often of the left persuasion and want the govt to spend more on hospitals, housing etc...are simply able to park the fact we were handing over £10,000,000,000 of uk tax revenue every 12 months. That is a colossal amount of money to blackhole.

Well it's not a mutually exclusive choice is it? It's entirely possible to believe that is correct and indeed beneficial in the round to be an overall net contributor to the EU, whilst also wanting higher public spending in the UK.

And lest we forget that the cost of Brexit so far has matched or indeed exceeded our entire net contributions to the EU since its inception.

 

[mack341]

Gotta love Chop's resistance on this topic, much as I disagree with him, it is very Choppers: quirky, passionate and determined, and not adverse to a bit of humour and political satire.

This thread could become a surrogate for the old NK thread where I enjoyed many a debating session with Harry Let's face it unlike Trump [who has more or less faded from centre stage] the EU is not going away anytime soon. Knowing their mindset it's going to become a bumpy ride as they seek evermore to dictate the way things are going to be in europe, and clash with populist and conservative/ traditional voters.

 

[mack341]

I've posted a lot today ....gloss paint takes a long time to dry, literally got my front door open so can't go anywhere, but this was too relevant not too post:

EU chaos as 'entire' M&S shipments turned away and destroyed because of 'wrong ink colour'​

CHAIRMAN of Marks & Spencer explained how an astonishing 20 percent of all company exports to Ireland are getting turned away and destroyed at the border. [daily express]​

Speaking to Radio 4’s Today Programme, supermarket Chairman Archie Norman explained how ludicrous border check requirements on his company's food imports to the Republic of Ireland are resulting in massive delays of up to 48-hours forcing the lorry's to destroy 20 percent of all its products

Mr Norman has demanded an urgent meeting with Chief

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negotiator Lord Frost to discuss a way out of the

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chaos which is destroying retail businesses with many complaining of entire shipments being turned away and destroyed by "pointless" EU enforcement simply because of having documents with the "wrong ink colour". He also expressed concerns over the impact on business when the protocol grace period comes to an end.

"It is not the rules of the customs union that is the problem, it is the Byzantine and pointless and honestly pettifogging enforcement which means that wagons can't get through

The Chairman said: “If one page is blue instead of black typeface the entire wagon is turned away!"

Mr Norman then went on to highlight the eye-watering number of documents required to enter Ireland with each lorry shipment.

He said: “Each wagon typically has about eight documents, 720 pages per truck, that’s three large three books! It’s about 40,000 pages per week!

“And to do that we are employing 13 full-time vets, they are not looking after animals or welfare, they are simply ticking boxes and filling out forms.”

He added how products such as sandwiches are requiring three vets certificates and if the “typeface on one page is the wrong colour it is rejected.”

He expressed major concerns similar chaos will be replicated in Northern Ireland when the grace period comes to an end at the end of September. He explained how checks are currently "very light touch" but feared chaos will erupt for M&S business in Northern Ireland from October if nothing is sorted.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Must be some mistake there mack, Brexit was going to cut through all this red tape like a hot knife through butter.

I've got a plan, let's blame the EU! (Again.)

It's bizarre really, it's the EU's fault when we're in the EU, and it's the EU's fault when we're not in the EU. Victim complex much? (That's not aimed at you directly, but the Brexit movement as a whole.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Gotta love Chop's resistance on this topic, much as I disagree with him, it is very Choppers: quirky, passionate and determined, and not adverse to a bit of humour and political satire.

This thread could become a surrogate for the old NK thread where I enjoyed many a debating session with Harry Let's face it unlike Trump [who has more or less faded from centre stage] the EU is not going away anytime soon. Knowing their mindset it's going to become a bumpy ride as they seek evermore to dictate the way things are going to be in europe, and clash with populist and conservative/ traditional voters.

The thing is mack I would hope it's obvious that whilst this is a topic I am very passionate about - (I remain strongly convinced that Brexit is the conjob of the century) - I also do my absolute best to keep things respectful, based on evidence/facts where available, and where something is a matter of personal opinion I label it as such. I don't do name-calling, I don't do abuse, and I don't do just outright make stuff up.

Whilst we disagree on much when it comes to this subject, I appreciate the fact you also keep it civilised, cite your sources where available, and engage with the subject like an adult - and elsewhere on the forums we can chat about other stuff no problem whatsoever.

For those who've watched my videos (and I wouldn't expect anyone to), they'll know I take the piss out of stuff an awful lot, not least taking the piss out of myself, and I get that a 'tone' doesn't necessarily come over in a written post, hence my (what I thought was obvious) light-hearted fun about the prawn crackers being taken the wrong way.

If people want to label me an 'anti-democratic whining Remoaner' or whatever then so be it, Brexit has happened as the result of a democratically held referendum, that's fine, but we're still allowed to talk about its consequences in the aftermath, and try to learn the lessons from something that was, in my opinion, done horrendously badly. (There were many ways to leave the EU, May and then Johnson decided to go about it in the most damaging way possible.)

 

[mack341]

It's obvious the jobsworths have been told by their employer [uncle EU] to turn the dial up to try to hit back at the country that had the audacity to leave, despite a free trade deal a mountain of paperwork is required for simple trade e.g some m&s sandwiches exported to ROI

 

[mack341]

The thing is mack I would hope it's obvious that whilst this is a topic I am very passionate about - (I remain strongly convinced that Brexit is the conjob of the century) - I also do my absolute best to keep things respectful, based on evidence/facts where available, and where something is a matter of personal opinion I label it as such. I don't do name-calling, I don't do abuse, and I don't do just outright make stuff up.

Whilst we disagree on much when it comes to this subject, I appreciate the fact you also keep it civilised, cite your sources where available, and engage with the subject like an adult - and elsewhere on the forums we can chat about other stuff no problem whatsoever.

For those who've watched my videos (and I wouldn't expect anyone to), they'll know I take the piss out of stuff an awful lot, not least taking the piss out of myself, and I get that a 'tone' doesn't necessarily come over in a written post, hence my (what I thought was obvious) light-hearted fun about the prawn crackers being taken the wrong way.

If people want to label me an 'anti-democratic whining Remoaner' or whatever then so be it, Brexit has happened as the result of a democratically held referendum, that's fine, but we're still allowed to talk about its consequences in the aftermath, and try to learn the lessons from something that was, in my opinion, done horrendously badly. (There were many ways to leave the EU, May and then Johnson decided to go about it in the most damaging way possible.)

I'm sure there'll be posts and 'takes' that annoy both sides of the topic. As long as things are authentic rather than malicious it shouldn't be a problem, the only thing is with the 3-4 years of exit process after the vote there has been a fatigue factor setting in, like anything that is on the news too much or frequently. However everyone in CM land should have the option of posting something on their mind, if the fire burns brightly as it were.

I do feel some of the pro EU sentiment stems from domestic politics, that membership tempered the thatcherite tories, protected the vulnerable, but I think hard evidence of that is a bit flimsy. But having lived through the 80's and 90's, which then brought Blair in as a reaction, there's something there that won't have happened in countries elsewhere [not as much anyway] but had an effect on which side of the referendum you take.

Slight ramble I realise...but I'm still waiting for this damn paint to dry!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Superb analysis of the current situation regarding the NIP, and also tackles head-on the attempts that are now being made to rewrite history with regards to how it came about. This is why Brexit is still relevant and why it's still worth talking about, it quite patently isn't 'done' or Johnson and Frost wouldn't be preparing to renege on a legally binding international agreement that they negotiated and voluntarily signed, and to rip up a massive chunk of that deal in the process.

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It’s important to keep remembering this history in the face of the now

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about what has led to the current situation. For months now the government has been developing a narrative about the NIP which has culminated in the

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put forward in parliament by Frost and Brandon Lewis this week.

That narrative has two core propositions. These, perhaps unsurprisingly, manage to be risible within their own terms whilst also being inconsistent with each other. One is that the government only agreed the NIP because of the circumstances of the ‘remainer parliament’. The other is that the realities of what the NIP means have only emerged during the attempt to implement it.

The first is risible because at the time the NIP was proclaimed as a great triumph, and part of Johnson’s ‘oven-ready deal’. The second is risible because the NIP contained significant detail of what implementation meant and its implications were largely obvious at the time. And the two are inconsistent because the first implies that the problems were always known whilst the second denies they were ever envisaged.

But the shape-shifting sophistry of Brexit isn’t concerned with consistency or logic. Nor is it seemingly much concerned with pride, since the first claim entails that Johnson and Frost were dishonest, whilst the second requires that they were incompetent. In any case, the reason for both claims is the same: to insist that the EU should allow the UK to renege on what was agreed. For what Frost made crystal clear this week is that the UK wants to rewrite almost the entirety of the NIP.

Within this narrative, a recurrent sub-theme is the childish complaint (given that it relates to a legal agreement) that the EU is

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, supposedly evidenced by the fact that such a high proportion – perhaps 20% - of all EU border checks are occurring on the GB>NI border. But there are several reasons for that, principally, as outlined by RTE’s

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, that nowhere else do you have a situation where organizational supply chains (especially those of supermarkets) so extensively straddle the borders of the single market. To that I would add the fact that, because this is also a border inside the UK single market, there is a far higher percentage of mixed goods consignments (‘groupage’) than would normally occur on the EU single market border. So it’s true that this is an unprecedented situation, but it is one created by Brexit and agreed by the government.

None of this is an unexpected result of the NIP. It was obvious it would be a consequence of an Irish Sea border, just as it was obvious there would be considerable diversion of goods trade from GB>NI to Ireland>NI to avoid these barriers (the opposite may well occur with respect to services trade). This is important to note because Frost is shaping up to make ‘unexpected diversion of trade’ central to any attempt to invoke Article 16 (temporary suspension) of the NIP.

 

[mack341]

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Unfortunately one vital area of this partnership is not working well – the arrangements relating to Northern Ireland set out in the Northern Ireland Protocol. These arrangements represented a huge compromise by the UK, designed to protect the peace process and the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement in all its dimensions. We repeatedly proposed alternative means to achieve those ends, which we felt better reflected the reality of the situation. Nevertheless, having reached a difficult compromise on the final text of the Protocol, we expected both sides to recognise the need to apply and administer it in a way that took account of the unique context of Northern Ireland, as the Protocol itself requires. This was vital not just for trade and economic reasons, but also because of the sensitive issues around politics and national identity.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Retailers in Scotland blame Brexit as food shortages hit many Scottish stores, and deny that Covid or the 'pingdemic' are to blame. They also point out that in all EU countries, the shelves are fully stocked, despite them having faced the same challenges.

The difference in the UK, of course, is Brexit.

Notably Scotland, like NI, did not vote for Brexit.

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INTERRUPTIONS to food supply to Scottish shops and restaurants are largely due to

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- not the “pingdemic” - say independent food retailers. They report that one major issue is hauliers from the EU have cut the UK from their routes. Some suppliers in European countries are also finding other buyers for their produce, because of the costs involved in post-Brexit paperwork.

Other commentators pointed out that Scotland does not in fact have a “pingdemic” as the Scottish track and trace app alerted only around 2500 people last week to isolate. On social media, sceptics shared images of abundant fruit and veg displays in supermarkets in EU countries, which are also enduring heatwaves, Covid and using test and trace apps.

A YouGov poll last week showed more than a third of people across the UK are experiencing food shortages in local stores. Scots however may be particularly affected by the shortage of lorry drivers caused by Brexit and Covid. Most produce from EU countries comes through England. After partial border checks, it has to transfer to lorries for longer journeys. In response to concerns over supply, Independence Live has launched a Food Sovereignty campaign.

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[paul7388]

Retailers in Scotland blame Brexit as food shortages hit many Scottish stores, and deny that Covid or the 'pingdemic' are to blame. They also point out that in all EU countries, the shelves are fully stocked, despite them having faced the same challenges.

The difference in the UK, of course, is Brexit.

Notably Scotland, like NI, did not vote for Brexit.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

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INTERRUPTIONS to food supply to Scottish shops and restaurants are largely due to

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- not the “pingdemic” - say independent food retailers. They report that one major issue is hauliers from the EU have cut the UK from their routes. Some suppliers in European countries are also finding other buyers for their produce, because of the costs involved in post-Brexit paperwork.

Other commentators pointed out that Scotland does not in fact have a “pingdemic” as the Scottish track and trace app alerted only around 2500 people last week to isolate. On social media, sceptics shared images of abundant fruit and veg displays in supermarkets in EU countries, which are also enduring heatwaves, Covid and using test and trace apps.

A YouGov poll last week showed more than a third of people across the UK are experiencing food shortages in local stores. Scots however may be particularly affected by the shortage of lorry drivers caused by Brexit and Covid. Most produce from EU countries comes through England. After partial border checks, it has to transfer to lorries for longer journeys. In response to concerns over supply, Independence Live has launched a Food Sovereignty campaign.

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View attachment 157132

Seriously.

You really are getting desperate to try get your point across.

Heres news. I stay in Scotland. The supermarket's are well stocked up.

So one shop seems to have ran out. Probably down to mismanagement or maybe the fact that all the stuff on the news last week about shortages in supplies due to covid app pinging people might have made people in some areas stock pile and lead to shortage in the store.
Yes Covid not Brexit. You are actually trying to use that biased paper the National that is totally against the UK government and prints one lot of crap basically to back up your point.

Come over to Scotland and go around the supermarkets yourself you will see there are no shortages.

Frankly it is getting a little embarrassing now that you are basically finding any garbage to try and prove a point.

On the news several times last week they were urging people not to stockpile goods as supplies were getting through and no need to be alarmed yet by so many people all self isolating. All Covid nothing to do with damned Brexit. Remember this is a country run by Sturgeon . Totally against UK and this was an article from a paper totally for Independence that blatantly prints unfactual stories to suit its agenda.

 

[cncas2123]

Retailers in Scotland blame Brexit as food shortages hit many Scottish stores, and deny that Covid or the 'pingdemic' are to blame. They also point out that in all EU countries, the shelves are fully stocked, despite them having faced the same challenges.

The difference in the UK, of course, is Brexit.

Notably Scotland, like NI, did not vote for Brexit.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

------------------

INTERRUPTIONS to food supply to Scottish shops and restaurants are largely due to

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- not the “pingdemic” - say independent food retailers. They report that one major issue is hauliers from the EU have cut the UK from their routes. Some suppliers in European countries are also finding other buyers for their produce, because of the costs involved in post-Brexit paperwork.

Other commentators pointed out that Scotland does not in fact have a “pingdemic” as the Scottish track and trace app alerted only around 2500 people last week to isolate. On social media, sceptics shared images of abundant fruit and veg displays in supermarkets in EU countries, which are also enduring heatwaves, Covid and using test and trace apps.

A YouGov poll last week showed more than a third of people across the UK are experiencing food shortages in local stores. Scots however may be particularly affected by the shortage of lorry drivers caused by Brexit and Covid. Most produce from EU countries comes through England. After partial border checks, it has to transfer to lorries for longer journeys. In response to concerns over supply, Independence Live has launched a Food Sovereignty campaign.

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View attachment 157132

But again it’s called democracy, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland voted to leave.
I believe London voted to remain , but it’s down to the overall vote and the tally of leave outweighed the tally of stay.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Boris Johnson is either knowingly lying here, or he's so stupid and ignorant

That's is nothing to with Brexit

 

[mack341]

Why now and not previously, hasn't brexit been in place since january? Smells a bit fishy to me, almost as though a sturgeon is involved somewhere

 

[paul7388]

And did you not read the last line of your article.

Independence live has launched.

Yes bloody Independence Live that are trying any damn trick out to get people to vote for them.

 

[dunover]

Yep, imagine the chaos of a hard border between England (40 minutes away from Europe) and Scotland (400 miles+ and hours away.)

Scotland is remote from almost all its markets, Sturgeon and her cronies resent 'rule' from London which includes people who have shared these islands with them for thousands of years, been in a union for over 300, fought together to preserve freedom for other nations over the centuries. So let's bin the English-speaking parliament off in London and transfer rule to Brussels, a French-speaking one even further away in which we'll have 1.1% of the MEP's. Makes sense, dunnit?

So Scotland would be only truly independent for the few months between voting leaving the UK (if they choose to) and subsequently entering the EU, at which point they become a vassal state of the French, Italians and Germans.

Mind you, despite Sturgeon's blathering, Scotland would not meet the EU criteria for debt/GDP and expenditure for the foreseeable anyway so that point could be moot.

The HGV driver issue is simply what it is - a temporary shortage of drivers that has only become a noteworthy issue since the pingdemic - before this, we heard very little about it and seemed to be coping despite allegations that we had lost about 24 million drivers who had returned to the EU. With a 7-figure of unemployment, decent wages and being master of your own day in most cases, I'm sure the UK govt. and Hauliers Association can work out a solution over the coming years. This is just SNP politicking.

P.S. AGAIN! I point out to you that the Brexit referendum was NOT a poll of the 4 individual countries of the UK each with their own mandate to leave or remain. It was a vote by the UNITED KINGDOM as a whole, which Scotland had 2 years' previously voted to be a part of. So constitutionally the chart @ChopleyIOM has yet again posted is completely irrelevant. If you want to break it down further, the Unionist vote in N.I. was firmly in favour of leaving. But again, that's as irrelevant as your chart.

 

[mack341]

Shame a food shortage doesn't hit lard arse blackford!

 

[pinnit2014]

I was in 3 supermarkets over the weekend, they had so much choice i didn't know what to get so i bought, and ate, all the crisps.

In fact, the dates on the Sainsbury's stuff was better than usual: only empty shelves i seen were for the booze in some places but, as it's Scotland, that's to be expected even in times of unflappable supply chains - they just can't keep up with the consumption.

 

[dunover]

Same here, like N.England, N.I. and Scotland here in the west country it's been bone dry and sunny for a while now. The SE and London, normally where the best summer weather occurs in the UK, has borne the brunt of torrential thunderstorms and hailstorms so we're kinda having a 'reverse' summer of late. So for the same reasons, when I went shopping yesterday there was absolutely nothing missing on the shelves except the alcohol aisle and soft drinks was a bit empty too but that's the weather more than anything, in Scotland they're still drinking to Italy so that explains that as well as the sun. Still no Hayward's Strong Picked Onions though.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The article makes it clear that (1) It's about smaller businesses and retailers, not the major supermarkets, which are essentially able to throw money at the problem to brute force it (and pass those costs on with higher prices, of course) and (2) The issues that these companies are facing are directly Brexit related.

That said, even some of the major supermarkets are having supply issues with some of their locations, on certain product lines, so even they are not immune.

As for the fact that NI and Scotland didn't vote for Brexit, in terms of the overall referendum result it doesn't 'matter' as such, but when 62% voted to remain, as they did in Scotland, it's easy to understand why they're pissed off about the negative impacts.

 

[cncas2123]

The article makes it clear that (1) It's about smaller businesses and retailers, not the major supermarkets, which are essentially able to throw money at the problem to brute force it (and pass those costs on with higher prices, of course) and (2) The issues that these companies are facing are directly Brexit related.

That said, even some of the major supermarkets are having supply issues with some of their locations, on certain product lines, so even they are not immune.

As for the fact that NI and Scotland didn't vote for Brexit, in terms of the overall referendum result it doesn't 'matter' as such, but when 62% voted to remain, as they did in Scotland, it's easy to understand why they're pissed off about the negative impacts.

But you are completely and totally ignoring the fact that it wasnt an individual vote for each part of the UK, it was a vote to cover the whole of the UK.
No matter what way you try and dress it up, you are completely missing the point of a democratic vote within the UK either through ignorance or plain lack of understanding of how a democracy works.
Accept it, the EU is no more in the UK, its gone, its up to the people of the UK now to make the best of this decision, whether they agree or not.

 

[News Hound]

Newsflash ( I can do this, as I am Newshound ) - Brexit has happened, no matter how many words are typed on forums and all forms of social media, it is not going to be reversed. Your man with the big megaphone camped outside the PoW in Parliament Square for years, should be able to inform you that this is indeed the case.

Maybe, I am being blinkered by the pandemic, but so far I see no adverse effects of the UK exiting the EU stage left. Indeed, if anything since the UK's leaving, the EU have let their mask slip several times.

I'd wager if there was another in out referendum, the majority voting leave would be even bigger.

 

[paul7388]

Lol the smaller businesses and retailers are well stocked as well. They were all well stocked last year when supermarkets got hammered at beginning of covid.

Really surprised that someone so intelligent as yourself actually believes these articles and quotes them knowing they are not reliable sources.

As for Scotland worrying about the negatives. Again most people don't care.

The only reason Brexit is getting mentioned in Scotland is to use it as a tool to try get people to vote independence which thankfully at the moment is not working great.

Most negative comments about brexit from Scotland come from one party who will use any excuse to try and gain all they exist for which is independence.

I know you are pissed that brexit happened. But really do not see why it has turned out to be an obsession for yourself at the moment to try find anything whether factual or not too back up your point.

You used to call out others for scaremongering and posting basically crap In threads. Yet in here you are posting articles from very dubious sources as if they are true just because they say it is.