Bonus Complaint Big win on Redbet - for nothing.

[Jono777]

Sorry Dunover

A Link to the story / screenies please VWM, obs before my time here on CM!

 

[mcgameboy]

I think a lot of you guys forget how it is to be a new/casual casino customer . You see an enticing advert that says 100% BONUS PLUS FREESPINS !! You don't spend time combing through the terms and conditions because in life as customers we're always faced with ridiculously long lists of terms and conditions written in legal jargon when we purchase anything . And , naively , as a customer you believe that the casino will treat you fairly and sensibly . As a casino customer you can make many deposits and play without ever encountering any problems because a) you might just lose your deposit or b) you might unknowingly not break the T&C's anyway or c) The casino might just allow the withdrawal to go through even if you broke one of the T&C

Have any of you EVER received an email saying "When you made your last deposit and played and lost you broke one of our T&C's so you wouldn't actually have been able to withdraw any winnings ... so keep that in mind for next time" ? No of course not - they wait until you request a decent withdrawal before they spring the T&C's TRAP on you

It's disgusting how they set these traps for the unwary . It sickens me because it's blatantly obvious they could easily prevent any of these T&C breaches happening in the first place by using simple preventative measures and CLEAR AND HIGHLY VISIBLE instructions about the max bet rule and excluded games . But they don't because it's a nice little earner for them and some of you as players even stand up to defend the casinos on this lol . They even decide that it's appropriate to take ALL of your money even if the rule breaches cost them zero or very little , which seems nothing short of theft imo . It's a trap , pure and simple.

Believe me, we don't like the slowpay/no pay tactics that some casinos employ ANY more than you do. I personally think a lot of casinos out there (accredited casinos included) have a hell of a lot to answer for. And I would be far from alone in having those sentiments.
If you were to do a poll asking the question "Why do casinos not bother their asses implementing simple preventative measures to ensure that players cannot breach the max bet rule?", you would probably find quite a fair amount of people here would give the following answer...

"Because it would cost them money on two fronts....one through an increase in operational costs and another by way of kissing goodbye to any opportunities they may otherwise have had to deny a withdrawal".

You don't seriously think we are actually GLOATING at the OP's misfortune, do you? Believe me, we are not doing any such thing. Some of us have had to swallow that same bitter pill that the OP is swallowing right now. And it didn't taste nice, regardless of the size of the denied cashout.
It actually makes our collective hearts sink and you know why? Because it could so easily have been avoided.

At the same time though, this site is about fair play on BOTH sides of the fence. Do you seriously think there aren't any multi-accounting fraudsters/advantage players/chargebackers out there trying to find a way to "outwit" the casino by fair means or foul? If you do, then think again.
It's because of "those types" * that casinos feel compelled to apply a shitload of T&C's to this, that and the other...for their own protection.
Unfortunately, in order to protect themselves from the dishonest players, they can end up punishing the honest ones. That is the sad reality.

* I am in no way suggesting that the OP is one of "those types". I do believe he made a genuine, but rookie mistake.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Yes , excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying ... except how can anyone justify confiscating an entire balance of £1000s in this case? Why not extra wagering added with the firm instructions to keep within betting limits ? Why not a reasonable fine ? It's pretty easy to spot/stop an intentional bonus abuser (since they must be breaking the rules consistently ) or failing that just punish them to the extent that bonus abusing is a -EV proposition
So saying "tough luck , you should have read the T&C's more thoroughly" just winds me up because the T&C's are designed to catch out unwary/inexperienced players . They are not clearly visible , the punishment doesn't fit the crime and they only enforce or allude to them when they have the chance to confiscate someone's balance . Shady bs and they use the excuse that they have to do this to stop "bonus abusers" . No they don't . The easiest way to stop bonus abuse is to check more thoroughly before issuing bonuses and then prevent play on games and at stakes that are not allowed whilst using bonus funds (like Videoslots does) . Or use a system like Betat that takes the portion of your winnings that came from exceeding the max bet rule and adds 50x that figure to wagering

Noone has a problem with casinos' having rules imo . Yes they need to have rules and we can choose whether or not we wish to play there . It's the biased way that the important/relevant rules are not made clear enough and the casinos don't do anything to help customers stay within the rules . Then when the customer finally manages to complete wagering to make a decent withdrawal the casino then points out the rules and decides that somehow allows them to confiscate an entire balance for even a minor indiscretion

 

[SpinUk]

As soon as I read the "and an extra 1£ to 6" the complaint comes without merit. Tbf, the bast majority of casinos rither have £5 max bet or 10% of the bonus. If high(er) rolling always check.

 

[vinylweatherman]

As soon as I read the "and an extra 1£ to 6" the complaint comes without merit. Tbf, the bast majority of casinos rither have £5 max bet or 10% of the bonus. If high(er) rolling always check.

It isn't that clear cut. It's a separate bet as this is a 2 in one game. There is a 5.00 bet on the main game, and a separate bet on a bonus game. It's not any different to playing two games at once in different windows, one at £5 and one at £1. We get the same problem with games such as Blackjack where the player would be betting the allowed 5.00, but cannot know in advance that they will be dealt a hand that should be split or doubled down on in order to play properly (as opposed to throw away by not making the correct move).

There is a means to 100% prevent "bonus abuse" and 100% protect ordinary players who make mistakes, it's software implementation of the betting limits so that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the player to break them. This has always been done with the basic table and slot limits. There is no way to bet more than £90 per spin on Thundrstruck if this is the limit set in the software, and I know from experience that operators can choose their own limits, and in Microgaming at least, I have even seen bonus dependent limits (GoWild), where the max bet on a slot (Munchkins) dropped right down to £15 when I had a bonus balance from the usual £75.

If Microgaming could manage this in their crappy out of date Viper client over 5 years ago, it should be a breeze for this to be implemented in the newest games, softwares, and platforms.

 

[jim86]

Just too clarify, I'm well aware that I didn't follow the T&C and therefore the whole complaint is basically mumbo-jumbo. However, I still think the casino, Redbet in this case, could have handled in others ways than just confiscating my whole balance. I have made several deposits, with and without bonuses at Redbet in the past so they could easily point me out as an average player and not a bonus abuser.

They do have the ability and income to invest a couple of bucks to avoid these things from happen.

 

[SpinUk]

Ok, im not sure I agree with you that the £1 side bet on the same game is the same as running two seperate games in differant windows. If I was betting that high and I thought that the sidebet might be an issue, I would probably check with support, as the consequences for getting it wrong (4k loss in this case) might be motivation enough.

To a certain extent I agree that Casino's should (and are capable of eg Videoslots etc) limit bet size when playing slots.

However, I have a Devil's advocate question for everyone:

If considering there will be an average proportion of players falling foul of this bet limit, with the subsequent confiscation (lets call it 3-5%), and that this adds a sizeable amount to the Casino's bottom line, if this automatic limitation on bet size when playing with bonus meant that a casino could not afford to offer as generous bonuses/free spins anymore to their wider players, would you still want it implemented?

 

[Jono777]

I still insist that unless in rare instances with 'grey' areas then the onus is on the player to adhere to the T&C's

I once had a 144 euro bonus with approx £5,760 WR attached, funnily enough at Redbet which is the subject of one of today's threads.

I started out at 1.2 bets on Rhino (knew I was safe to do this due to previous deposits/withdrawals) Once my mega lucky streak kicked in and my balance was over 3K the 'Wanna be Hi - Roller for a day' thoughts started to really and I mean REALLY nag away inside my head.

As much as the temptation to do something which would probably be a 'once in a lifetime' scenario was there I simply logged off, closed the browser, had a brew n ciggie and sat back down, nice and calm(ish) and before I made another spin

I READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS!

All on me, no systems, no safeguards, no passing the buck, no 'what if's' a sound night's sleep and 4,100 euros in my Skrill account

 

[SlotGrinder]

Ok, im not sure I agree with you that the £1 side bet on the same game is the same as running two seperate games in differant windows. If I was betting that high and I thought that the sidebet might be an issue, I would probably check with support, as the consequences for getting it wrong (4k loss in this case) might be motivation enough.

To a certain extent I agree that Casino's should (and are capable of eg Videoslots etc) limit bet size when playing slots.

However, I have a Devil's advocate question for everyone:

If considering there will be an average proportion of players falling foul of this bet limit, with the subsequent confiscation (lets call it 3-5%), and that this adds a sizeable amount to the Casino's bottom line, if this automatic limitation on bet size when playing with bonus meant that a casino could not afford to offer as generous bonuses/free spins anymore to their wider players, would you still want it implemented?

Of course . Integrity > bonuses . If a casino operates in this way then they are not trustworthy realistically . So that slot you think is 96% rtp is now 94% because every time you play on that site you risk just not getting paid out in someway

If every casino paid out promptly with no fuss plus all games were properly independently tested and regulated then the whole industry would be trusted much more and that would lead to more money being wagered , bonuses or no bonuses .

 

[SlotGrinder]

I still insist that unless in rare instances with 'grey' areas then the onus is on the player to adhere to the T&C's

I once had a 144 euro bonus with approx £5,760 WR attached, funnily enough at Redbet which is the subject of one of today's threads.

I started out at 1.2 bets on Rhino (knew I was safe to do this due to previous deposits/withdrawals) Once my mega lucky streak kicked in and my balance was over 3K the 'Wanna be Hi - Roller for a day' thoughts started to really and I mean REALLY nag away inside my head.

As much as the temptation to do something which would probably be a 'once in a lifetime' scenario was there I simply logged off, closed the browser, had a brew n ciggie and sat back down, nice and calm(ish) and before I made another spin

I READ THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS!

All on me, no systems, no safeguards, no passing the buck, no 'what if's' a sound night's sleep and 4,100 euros in my Skrill account

But you have casino experience . A lot of newbies don't realise the T&C's contain potential pitfalls
If you got some new medicine and it said in big letters "IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ THIS" and went on to list the possible dangerous side effects then you have noone to blame but yourself if you don't bother reading .
But a casino bonus is usually a great big advert proclaiming 100% bonus !! which if you click will take you straight to the deposit page with no further info . Only in tiny writing at the bottom will it say "wagering and terms and conditions apply" and then you have to click on 3 links and then search from a long list of T&C's to find the part where it says you must not bet over £X and cannot play certain games (not talking specifically about Redbet as their T&C's seemed pretty easy to find compared to most casinos)

How about you click on the 100% bonus advert and that links you direct to this page:

MAX BET £5

35X WAGERING

THE FOLLOWING GAMES ARE EXCLUDED :

DO YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS Y/N

Then it takes you to the deposit page...

That would solve half the problems right there . Of course , most casinos don't want to solve this "problem" of bonus "abuse" because for the sake of a few emails and chats with disgruntled customers they get to confiscate £1000s they have no right to . That's good money to be made

 

[goatwack]

Ok, im not sure I agree with you that the £1 side bet on the same game is the same as running two seperate games in differant windows. If I was betting that high and I thought that the sidebet might be an issue, I would probably check with support, as the consequences for getting it wrong (4k loss in this case) might be motivation enough.

To a certain extent I agree that Casino's should (and are capable of eg Videoslots etc) limit bet size when playing slots.

However, I have a Devil's advocate question for everyone:

If considering there will be an average proportion of players falling foul of this bet limit, with the subsequent confiscation (lets call it 3-5%), and that this adds a sizeable amount to the Casino's bottom line, if this automatic limitation on bet size when playing with bonus meant that a casino could not afford to offer as generous bonuses/free spins anymore to their wider players, would you still want it implemented?

It's not on me to take the brunt of the casino's failure to spot advantage players, nor should someone be instantly penalized for hitting max bet by accident.

Casino discretion should still be in place and based on an individual basis. If a minnow player went from 20p to £10 a spin, exceptions can be made based on prior play. If a newly-registered player came in doing £5-10 bets from the outset I'd treat that as suspicious and probably throw the book at them.

Of course we'd all love to see a max-bet safeguard in place, but this ought to be mandatory to any casino that offers bonuses.

The general populace of lowrollers shouldn't be made to go without - but if there were a magic wand that would ensure a universal set of fair T&Cs that don't entrap players, allow all games and prevent over-betting, I'd take that any day, even if it meant less perks for myself.

The bonus structure is at its end, not helped by having different rules everywhere, not to mention the constant alterations made almost weekly. Maybe it's best to abolish them altogether and start again in a few years, maybe then we'll see a repeat of the good old days when casino/ customer relations weren't at such a low ebb!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Ok, im not sure I agree with you that the £1 side bet on the same game is the same as running two seperate games in differant windows. If I was betting that high and I thought that the sidebet might be an issue, I would probably check with support, as the consequences for getting it wrong (4k loss in this case) might be motivation enough.

To a certain extent I agree that Casino's should (and are capable of eg Videoslots etc) limit bet size when playing slots.

However, I have a Devil's advocate question for everyone:

If considering there will be an average proportion of players falling foul of this bet limit, with the subsequent confiscation (lets call it 3-5%), and that this adds a sizeable amount to the Casino's bottom line, if this automatic limitation on bet size when playing with bonus meant that a casino could not afford to offer as generous bonuses/free spins anymore to their wider players, would you still want it implemented?

Well, if a simple matter of players sticking to the rules breaks the business model, then by definition it is a rogue business model that is utterly dependent on having customers break the rules for it's survival. This risks creating legal problems for operators were it to be proven to be the case.

 

[mcgameboy]

Ok, im not sure I agree with you that the £1 side bet on the same game is the same as running two seperate games in differant windows. If I was betting that high and I thought that the sidebet might be an issue, I would probably check with support, as the consequences for getting it wrong (4k loss in this case) might be motivation enough.

To a certain extent I agree that Casino's should (and are capable of eg Videoslots etc) limit bet size when playing slots.

However, I have a Devil's advocate question for everyone:

If considering there will be an average proportion of players falling foul of this bet limit, with the subsequent confiscation (lets call it 3-5%), and that this adds a sizeable amount to the Casino's bottom line, if this automatic limitation on bet size when playing with bonus meant that a casino could not afford to offer as generous bonuses/free spins anymore to their wider players, would you still want it implemented?

Absolutely 100% yes, I would. An online gambling world where the player isn't constantly looking over his/her shoulder wondering when a casino is gonna bend them over and shaft them can only be a good thing.

An online gambling world where the casinos place a greater emphasis on the nurturing of player-friendly integrity than on the ever-increasing creation of player-unfriendly entrapment and red tape can only be a good thing.

An online gambling world where the casino uses FAIR and COMMON SENSE discretion/decision making that enables them to do the right/"honourable" thing instead of automatically activating their desire to screw a player over at any/every opportunity can only be a good thing.

An online gambling world where the casino (who is already as good as guaranteed to make money as it is) prioritises profit generation while being 100% honest and transparent at the same time, rather than achieving greater profit as a result of sometimes engaging in dishonourable/unethical means (hello EveryMatrix, how are you pack of crooked c*nts doing today?) can only be a good thing.

An online gambling world where the casino/player relationship is built on complete trust from both sides rather than suspicion on one can only be a good thing.

So yeah, if a reduction in "shady" confiscation manoeuvres or iffy "business decisions" by casinos meant me getting less attractive bonus offers because they couldn't afford to, then so be it. I'll take that trade off any day and cope just fine and dandy with it, thank you very much.
Better for me, better for almost everyone (except perhaps for APs, MAFs, a casino's bottom line and an EveryMatrix executive's lifestyle).

 

[MariusManager]

Hi gents,

Apologies for not coming back to you sooner, but I just returned from Berlin Affiliate Conference. Please note that Adam is not working with us anymore, however going forward I will be more than happy to assist you with any queries you might have for any of our 6 online brands: redbet.com;vinnarum.com; bertil.com, heypoker.com; whitebet.com and mamamiabingo.com;

jim86 my friend I’m really sorry to hear about your problem. Can you please pm me your Redbet username. Once you have supplied this, I will then have a word with our payments department to investigate and see what we can do about your issue. Once ready I will feedback and let you know their decision right away.

That said, if there is anything we can do to make your playing experience in our platform more joyful please do let me know.

Thanks in advance,
Marius

Breaking a rule is breaking a rule, no matter how you put it. Where should the casino draw the line in your opinion? They would be busy all day just handling these kind of cases if they would start watering down their own set terms.

Not reading the T&C's is an inexcusable mistake. I guess you read them in your normal life before signing a contract for expensive things you buy aka you don't just hand over the cash without checking what is in for you.

Redbet has two reps here at CM, albeit not very active but they will receive a notification that they have new messages waiting. Contact them and ask them to review your case, maybe, just maybe they will agree to some compromise, which they don't have to really.

Adam: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/
Marius: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

Don't take bonuses if you are too lazy to read the rules! Simple!!