Betfair Bonus Fiasco

[vinylweatherman]

To submit a complaint to the LGA is equivilant to complaining to the mailman. I'm rather surprised that the Betfair casino team hadn't done a little research on whether or not that would be a good solution to this problem. But what I find alarming is the "spirit of the bonus" defense. Only a rogue RTG casino would refer to that. This is covered in the Meister's Mission section:



It's like the casino staff is oblivious to the pitfalls of online casino management. When you make mistakes, admit it, own up to it and move on. To argue that players need to play by some "spirit" is not the way to deal with this problem.

Perhaps they HAVE, and know DAMN WELL that players will get nowhere complaining to the LGA, which will allow Betfair to get away with anything they want.

It seems they are fobbing Max off after first telling you they will re-open communications in an effort to resolve this issue.

It seems that not only are they using this "spirit of the bonus" defence, they are engaging in mass "chargebacks" against players for withdrawals already paid. They also seem to be inept at maths, and even confiscating DEPOSITS along with bonus and winnings, leaving players who initially won as LOSERS, not even getting returned to the position they were in before they participated. This is WORSE than the actions of most of the rogues, who will at least return deposits in full when using the "spirit of the bonus" defense.

Players should forget the LGA, although they should "go through the motions" so that the LGA get flooded with complaints, and eventually have to make a decision, and be called to account.

Players should also PAB, even though it looks like Max is getting the brush off on these. Again, it's a matter of building a body of evidence, which will make it harder for Betfair to keep it's good reputation and at the same time "screw over" players because of Betfair's own poor maths and lack of expertise in the FIVE members of staff that supposedly "vetted" this promo before it went live. I don't believe there was any "mistake". These managers know EXACTLY what they were offering, and KNEW that although it posed a risk, it blew the competition out of the water, and would have created considerable interest among the player community, producing considerable deposits into Betfair over the weekend. The "mistake" was that they were too daring, and were blinded by the attraction of bringing in the deposits to the extent that they didn't fully appreciate the magnitude of the risks.

Betfair are experienced operators, and they must have known about "advantage play" at the time they constructed this promotion, and indeed ANY promotion.

They STILL haven't learned, and the new terms are STILL ALLOWING some of the actions that they said were "not in the spirit" of this offer, namely the "unlimited" nature of the bonus, and the fact that "stacking bonuses" by piling in multiple deposits during the 3 hour window is STILL not only allowed, but ENCOURAGED, by the ad copy for the amended promotion.

 

[maxd]

Players should also PAB, even though it looks like Max is getting the brush off on these. Again, it's a matter of building a body of evidence....

VERY important point! I tried to make this clear earlier but I guess I wasn't blunt enough.

Also, generally speaking an unresolved PAB stays on the books. So any overtures from the casino to "turn a new leaf" usually requires that old issues get dealt with first. This isn't always 100% but plenty of old business has eventually been sorted because of this.

 

[Joaopc56]

Thank you very much for your words. Yes I sent e-mails to Portuguese media (magazines, tv channels, etc) and I talked immediatly with my bank. I talked already with 4 persons from my bank. None of them could explain how this was possible because the money was in my account for 2 days and I could spend it on a car, and betfair would have no chance of getting it that way. They´re investigating the case and I´ve tell them that if I don´t get my money back I will complain about them everywhere here in Portugal. I don´t think they want people to know you can´t trust the bank, and you can loose 32000€ that easily.

Waiting for news about this case and I will let you know what´s happening. About betfair I just can say I will never ever play again with them (my account is closed anyway). But I assure you they will pay for this. If it´s not today in the long run they will be paying for their actions.

Yesterday I made a complain to "banco de portugal" (bank of portugal) wich regulates all portuguese banks. I did it because the date I gave for my bank to refund my money has expired, and they know I made the complain. They´re not happy with my decision (because bank of portugal is very severe) but they understand mine and my family frustration about this. I would prefer to never receive the money in the past, the shocker was winning it, receiving it and loose it 2 days after without any explanation. If they debited 32000€ from moneybookers or neteller... it was sad anyway but I wouldn´t be shocked as I was after they debited 32k from my own bank account. Who can we trust these days?

 

[hitobito2005]

Players should forget the LGA, although they should "go through the motions" so that the LGA get flooded with complaints, and eventually have to make a decision, and be called to account.

Do you really think this is a good idea?

I am considering going directly to court without contacting the LGA. I'm worried that the inevitable ruling in favour of Betfair will look bad in court. I'd rather bring the case straight to a truly impartial judge.

I know 100% that Betfair will laughed out of court, but I don't hold much faith in the LGA.

 

[FiletOFish]

Whilst the media might not take much interest in the casino side of things

They would. The media love a bit of scandal, and I can say that from experience. I once (foolishly) appeared in a national newspaper in 1997 as they did a story about how I'd made £28k from fruit machines (in the UK) in a year (I hadn't, I'd only made £20k, but they said £28k sounded better). Once the story got printed, I had numerous phone calls asking me to write books or make videos. I had one TV company wanted me to go into an arcade, start emptying a JPM Money Talks (remember those, vinyl!?) and watch the owners throw me out. For this, they were offering to pay the princely sum of £75. I declined. Although I did go on Esther Rantzen's talk show in 2000 about gambling - only after I'd spent 6 hours in make-up so that no-one would recognise me! She asked, "so how do you do it?" I replied "I put a couple of pounds in a machine, and can tell if it's ready to pay out or not". Which translates as "I'll put £2 in this JPM fruit machine, and if it shows a 1 or a 12 on the number reel, it's going to pay out"

a story about a "merchant" taking €32,000 from someone's BANK account without authorisation, and possibly ILLEGALLY under the rules of the banking system, WILL make the media sit up and take an interest. The story will be about the BANK that allowed this, rather than the casino, which will probably only get a small mention.

Yes, the media would absolutely love that.

Advantage play wouldn't even have to be mentioned in the Betfair case. People just playing normally are having their winnings stolen. One guy has had 32 grand seized back from his bank account. It might not make TV just yet, but it's not going to be too long before it does......

 

[thelawnet]

To submit a complaint to the LGA is equivilant to complaining to the mailman. I'm rather surprised that the Betfair casino team hadn't done a little research on whether or not that would be a good solution to this problem.

I'm sure they know perfectly well how the LGA operate and that they will endorse whatever line Betfair chooses to take, and that is why they are adopting the 'We aren't answering any further emails, but you can contact the LGA if you wish'. They know the LGA will sit on the complaints for 9-12 months, then fail to take the player's side and finally come out with an identical 'this is the LGA's decision, no further correspondence will be enter into' outcome.

So it would indeed be a good solution to the problem from Betfair's side, as they fob people off for about a year and at the end of it probably get their point of view endorsed by the LGA.

 

[Rhyzz]

Removing bonuses and winnings without valid reason is one thing, but forcing manual deposits without authorisation is just asking for trouble. In theory they shouldn't be able to do this from a card since it's illegal to store CV2 numbers, but a wire transfer or e-wallet...they can certaintly make the request and hope it's processed.

Very poor practice for a listed company, I'm amazed they haven't just taken it on the chin and coughed up.

 

[Joaopc56]

Yes they basically used my Card number to get the money back, everything without my bank permission. They´re in trouble, at least with this situation believe me. It´s not just a question of casino winnings and payement, it has more problems involved.

There is the shocker:

Expired Image

edit: my withdrawal when account was open

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This is my bank website -> Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

 

[leonardo99]

Joaopc56 I just read your incredibile post .. What can I say? I'm 100% sure you will receive bank your money from your bank.
Millennium Bank is a big bank..(in Romania is grow verry fast)...+ in this situation is Bank fault.
Please keep update this thread for casinomeister members

PS: About Betfair..Was my favourit sportbook and casino..but this scandal really changed everything. I really not understand Betfair position..they act in the most unprofesional way...

 

[Jufo]

Expired Image

What I am a bit puzzled about is how did you manage to make 32K withdrawal from only 310€ in deposits? Weren't you supposed to deposit 200 for each 100 bonus claimed or did you win that amount from a single bonus?

 

[Joaopc56]

Think about this. Someone says to you if you put 200€ he gives you 100€ and you just have to play those 100€ x 10. When you play 1000€ you can withdrawal and deposit again the money you won, and He will give you another 100€. Just do this many times and with a bit of luck in the casino you win a lot. That was what happened, but I think the way the money was won isn´t the most important thing here. The terms were there, I just played according to the terms and conditions and had the luck to win large amount of money. I bet that if I lost money they wouldn´t refund me.

I just ask to betfair, why did they even process my withdrawal? Are withdrawals automatically processed? I don´t think so because they would lost a lot of money if it was automatic. So if they paid me and processed the payement why did they debited it 2 days after? It makes no sense. I want at least my psychological health back.

I thought betfair wasn´t in that bag we call "if you loose you´re welcome dear customer, if you win we will take your winnings back and you´re not welcome".

They just can´t be in the accredited casino list after this. I will never put a single €uro on betfair again.

 

[anniemac]

If this BetFair is the same company that bought TVG here in the US, you might want to take a look at this post from another forum:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It has a lot on information that could possibly help get in touch with someone plus if you really wanted to get attention, a little buzz to the media here in the US might get attention from them.

Couldn't hurt.

 

[Joaopc56]

Thank you very much anniemac, I will look into that for sure. I´m amazed with this great forum, it has helped me a lot. Even If I don´t recover my money, my psychological situation will be much better after knowing this people here.

Thanks

I received an e-mail today from someone called Richard Bloch:

"Joao,



Thank you for your email which came via CasinoMeister.



I appreciate you may have seen a similar version of the email below, however I have included the details of how to contact the LGA who we are regulated by should you wish to take your complaint further.





On the weekend of the 13/14th November Betfair ran a promotion for its casino product. It subsequently came to our attention that certain customers exploited the spirit of this promotion. The accounts of all customers that took part have been reviewed by Betfair, and corrective action has been taken where appropriate for those who acted in contravention of our terms and conditions. Betfair has corresponded directly with all customers who were affected by this. If any customer would like to discuss the matter further, they may contact the LGA in Malta by e-mailing complaints@lga.org.mt or telephoning +356 21316590.



Kind Regards



Richard"

I don´t know why I received this e-mail but it sounds like a bot anyway.

 

[maxd]

I don´t know why I received this e-mail but it sounds like a bot anyway.

The same is happening with the PAB issues: one response for all, no individual attention to each case, no exceptions, period. In fact they haven't even bothered with the pre-fab respond to the latest batch I submitted, just getting dead air.

This sounds very much like a corporate-style thing to me. Someone high up has sent down word about what their stand on this is -- whether that contradicts what the guys on the front line have already said or not -- and that's the orders they are now marching to, for better or worse. All we're getting now is defensive position behaviour: they're just hoping to ride this out, waiting for the storm to pass.

 

[uki]

I got the above response from Richard to. For someone who has the title 'International PR Manager' this is a very lame message.

I agree with you Maxd, that this is now being driven from on high. Probibly board level.

Not sure the best way to proceed. (Not LGA though!)

 

[Joaopc56]

Someone from other website filled a complain to LGA for me. All I can do know is "fight" against my bank and get my money back but I will keep you informed.

 

[asianeyes]

This could happen because they have been raiding BANK accounts. Whilst the media might not take much interest in the casino side of things, a story about a "merchant" taking €32,000 from someone's BANK account without authorisation, and possibly ILLEGALLY under the rules of the banking system, WILL make the media sit up and take an interest. The story will be about the BANK that allowed this, rather than the casino, which will probably only get a small mention.

The bank could then get investigated by the regulator, who might order it to repay the €32,000 back to it's customer, and resolve the dispute in a proper manner according to local banking rules.

€32,000 is a pretty large sum for a BANK to simply "confiscate" from someone, and if this does hit the mainstream media, it will be a BIG story, and may trigger other victims to come forward with similar stories. This poses a threat to the whole industry, since countries where this is still a legally undefined area may go down the prohibition route. We ALREADY have a ruling from the EU courts that countries CAN prohibit online casinos based elsewhere in the EU if it is deemed necessary in order to protect citizens from rogue business practices.

We have also established that, somehow, casinos CAN simply take back monies previously paid by them to a customer from a BANK, as well as an eWallet. If this was done LEGALLY, then bank customers in general will be concerned that ANY merchant can do this rather than use proper channels to recover disputed monies. When CUSTOMERS want to dispute a payment they have made, they CAN'T simply take it back, they have to initiate a formal "chargeback" procedure, where they have to put their case, and the merchant has a chance to put theirs.

Joaopc56 should seek advice as to whether this was legal under Portugese law, and if not, pursue the bank for allowing it to happen. Betfair can hide behind the inaction of the LGA, but the bank CANNOT. If the bank has to give back this money, it will go after Betfair, and the bank's lawyers will NOT be so easily put off by persistent non-replies and delays from Betfair and the LGA. The bank's lawyers will also know of any other ways to recover the money. It may turn out not to be a "casino matter" at all when it comes to the bank recovering it's losses, and it could pursue Betfair through the Portugese courts, or the UK courts, for recovery.

The bank may even end up being able to do what Betfair did, simply take the money back.

VWM, goggle the name of the players bank and read what Wikipedia lists about it...

 

[heador112]

At the end of the day this is a decision about money . I think Betfair lost alot and in their opinion the damage from public discussions is lower then to pay players .

I heard some people talk about a sum of more then 10 Millions

This is probaly not a ehtical decision but its probaly cheaper for them . They wait until the dust has settled and until that happens they ignore every individual case .

 

[mattsgame]

I´m in very bad psychological situation after this. My comp points earned for long time ago weren´t returnet (around 2k), my deposit wasn´t returned, no replies to my e-maisl.

When I read this I thought you had been a long time dedicated player (as I mentioned in my other post), but going by your deposits this is not true so I'm guessing once you heard about the promotion you jumped on the band wagon. (or am I reading it wrong? and thats not your total deposit history?) Is so I apologize.

Anyways still not the point I guess,(assuming you followed t&c) a casino any casino should not be allowed to touch a players bank accounts, and your bank should not be giving away YOUR money like that

Keep us posted on what happens with the bank at least!

Cheers
Matt

 

[vinylweatherman]

Removing bonuses and winnings without valid reason is one thing, but forcing manual deposits without authorisation is just asking for trouble. In theory they shouldn't be able to do this from a card since it's illegal to store CV2 numbers, but a wire transfer or e-wallet...they can certaintly make the request and hope it's processed.

Very poor practice for a listed company, I'm amazed they haven't just taken it on the chin and coughed up.

Yes they basically used my Card number to get the money back, everything without my bank permission. They´re in trouble, at least with this situation believe me. It´s not just a question of casino winnings and payement, it has more problems involved.

There is the shocker:

Expired Image

edit: my withdrawal when account was open

Expired Image

This is my bank website -> Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Coupled with your bank saying this should have been impossible, and they can't figure out how it was done, they MUST have acted outside the rules to "force this through" the system. They may well have acted illegally, but from a regulatory point of view, you are a victim of your BANK's conduct in allowing this transaction to go through. It is CLEARLY a "chargeback", rather than you depositing again, because the transactions are the EXACT opposite of the credits.

It doesn't matter how good or bad the bank is, if it is regulated by the Bank of Portugal, it will have to do as it is told - same here in the UK. Our FSA can order a bank to pay back money that it allowed to leave a customer's account without due process.
The mere fact that your bank says this is "impossible" means that due process was NOT followed, else the bank would be able to tell you how this was able to happen.

The bank should also be able to find out just HOW this transaction was pushed through, and IF it finds that your card & CCV was used without your permission, the merchant could be charged with fraud. Use of the CCV will also prove that it had been stored illegally by the merchant, which would be a breach of data handling laws.

The same is happening with the PAB issues: one response for all, no individual attention to each case, no exceptions, period. In fact they haven't even bothered with the pre-fab respond to the latest batch I submitted, just getting dead air.

This sounds very much like a corporate-style thing to me. Someone high up has sent down word about what their stand on this is -- whether that contradicts what the guys on the front line have already said or not -- and that's the orders they are now marching to, for better or worse. All we're getting now is defensive position behaviour: they're just hoping to ride this out, waiting for the storm to pass.

They may have realised how much trouble they are in, and with the possibility of court action, possibly even CRIMINAL proceedings, they are adopting the "no comment" attitude, and only responding with replies approved by their lawyers.

As for the LGA, whilst they need to feel the heat over this, a ruling from them in Betfair's favour COULD damage a court case, so players who ARE going to take them to court should perhaps hold off complaining to the LGA.

If the money was taken from the sportsbook wallet, they could argue that they didn't believe it was an LGA matter in the first place, since the confiscation was done by the SPORTS part of the organisation, not the CASINO side. Since they are regulated separately, the sports side may have acted illegally under UK regulations by processing a request for confiscation coming from a part NOT regulated by the UK.

If this €32,000 bank raid is NOT a "one off" the storm could get VERY bad for Betfair in the weeks to come.

 

[hitobito2005]

I do wonder about your last point, whether or not they should come under UK rules since the confiscation was done from the sportsbook. It would make sense to me. I have already submitted a complain to IBAS and they referred me to the LGA, so it seems they don't agree.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I do wonder about your last point, whether or not they should come under UK rules since the confiscation was done from the sportsbook. It would make sense to me. I have already submitted a complain to IBAS and they referred me to the LGA, so it seems they don't agree.

IBAS is NOT the UK regulator, but an INDUSTRY "puppet" organisation. You should contact the UK Gambling Authority directly to ask whether money removed as a confiscation from the sportsbook comes under their remit. Let THEM decide, not IBAS.

Betfair are VERY keen to bury this in Malta, where they know they will probably get away with it, as well as being able to stall for many months.

 

[uki]

So how is this one going to move forward?

MaxD/CasinoMeister, can you ask the BF rep to tell you exactly what terms and conditions have been broken.

They seem very reluctant to tell any of us what we have done!

For myself I am looking to take them to court (in the UK). IBAS/LGA/Gamming Commision are all a waste of space so this seems the best option.

Perhaps if there are enough people taking this route then they may see the light and do the right thing.

 

[vinylweatherman]

So how is this one going to move forward?

MaxD/CasinoMeister, can you ask the BF rep to tell you exactly what terms and conditions have been broken.

They seem very reluctant to tell any of us what we have done!

For myself I am looking to take them to court (in the UK). IBAS/LGA/Gamming Commision are all a waste of space so this seems the best option.

Perhaps if there are enough people taking this route then they may see the light and do the right thing.

It looks like there WERE no violations of the terms and conditions. They told one player they had not "played within the spirit of the offer". This will NOT work in court. The court will look at the terms as written, and agreed to. Betfair will have to demonstrate a breach of contract (in other words, the player broke the terms). It didn't work for the banks, nor the card companies. In fact, even where terms WERE written, and breached, the courts STILL sometimes decided in favour of customers, usually where advisors had lied to customers in order to make them believe the terms were different. These were the "mis-selling" cases.

If a UK court agrees to hear the case, Betfair will pull out all the stops to PREVENT a case going the distance, because they fear that a ruling against them will open the doors to EVERY player affected claiming, and using the case as a legal precedent to support their own.

The UK commission is also worth a try, since it is Betfair's UK license that could be at stake. This will mean they have to shut down or move their sport and games operations offshore, and this could impact their share price (as would a court ruling against them).

There is likely to be a compromise settlement in due course, but this could take some time. Betfair will have lawyers advising them what the risks are in these cases, and the execs will have to decide which is greater, stick it out and defend any court actions, or settle each out of court when they realise the player is NOT bluffing, and the papers land at their offices.

 

[hitobito2005]

The only problem is the jurastiction issue. I'm still not convinced that Betfair will respond to a court case brought against them in the UK. They will probably send back the court papers saying you have the wrong company (Betfair Malta being the correct company).

It might take a court case to establish that Betfair UK is responsible, before you can even issue preceedings against them regarding the bonus fiasco!