Betfair Bonus Fiasco

[daywalker]

It seems to me that players who went for the rinse and repeat option (rather than fresh deposits) are the ones being targeted. I could be wrong but it seems to be a fairly common trend? Not that the t&c's say there was anything wrong with this.

I suspect anyone covering all numbers at roulette with enough funds from the rinse and repeat to clear the wagering for each £100 bonus in one or two spins (or a similar low number) has been targetted too. I'm not sure I've much sympathy for anyone who has done the latter, especially if they have done it claiming the £100 bonus say 715 times (£45 ish 'guaranteed' profit every time).

 

[hitobito2005]

I my case I did not rinse and repeat (started with a large deposit instead), and did not use roulette or any reduced risk method.

 

[maxd]

MaxD/CasinoMeister, can you ask the BF rep to tell you exactly what terms and conditions have been broken.

If and when that becomes possible I'm sure it'll be high on the agenda. Thus far though the line of communication has not been such that it could accomodate those kinds of questions.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I my case I did not rinse and repeat (started with a large deposit instead), and did not use roulette or any reduced risk method.

OK large deposit. I presume you went for "stacking". Depositing as much as you could during the 3 hour window, and then using the 12 hours to complete the WR.

What games did you play, and how?
What was your level of stake compared to your level of deposits?

Although Betfair are not saying, we can easily check whether the play is in any way "irregular" by normally accepted standards. Betfair are still trying to imply that players used "irregular play" to beat the bonus, which is "not within the spirit of the offer".


Betfair are trying to make out they are victims of mass "bonus abuse", rather than victims of their own incompetence.

 

[The Dude]

...
Betfair are trying to make out they are victims of mass "bonus abuse", rather than victims of their own incompetence.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, Betfair seems to be under the impression that if their lawyers say they have a right to confiscate these winnings, then that's what they can and will do.

But just because their legal team says that they can confiscate winnings doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do.

In my opinion, if players did not breach the terms and conditions of the bonus, then Betfair needs to "take it on the chin" and pay up. So it was a poorly written bonus - it should have never been approved - but it was...

You learn by your mistakes; you learn nothing by denying that mistakes were made. Admitting mistakes allows you to identify with the common folk, and it can actually improve business relations since it humanizes you. To hunker down in a defensive mode is not the way to handle this situation.

 

[hitobito2005]

OK large deposit. I presume you went for "stacking". Depositing as much as you could during the 3 hour window, and then using the 12 hours to complete the WR.

What games did you play, and how?
What was your level of stake compared to your level of deposits?

I went for stacking, although I didn't deposit nearly as much as I could have done. I was wagering for most of the promotional hours and had it completed by just after midnight (no uncompleted bonuses were taken from me).

My stakes are deposit were large by most peopoles standards, but i'm a big player. There's precedent for me playing big and losing big at other casinos if someone (a court) was interested to look into it. I've had some big wins recently. I played Casino Hold'em and Spin-a-win both in risky ways, ie no risk free strategy at all. I played high stakes all the way.

 

[spitfire]

It seems to me that players who went for the rinse and repeat option (rather than fresh deposits) are the ones being targeted. I could be wrong but it seems to be a fairly common trend? Not that the t&c's say there was anything wrong with this.

I suspect anyone covering all numbers at roulette with enough funds from the rinse and repeat to clear the wagering for each £100 bonus in one or two spins (or a similar low number) has been targetted too. I'm not sure I've much sympathy for anyone who has done the latter, especially if they have done it claiming the £100 bonus say 715 times (£45 ish 'guaranteed' profit every time).

I went for a large deposit and I had a large balance anyway. Didn't play risk free, didn't queue bonuses. The only thing "unusual" about my play was that I made money out of it.

 

[daywalker]

I my case I did not rinse and repeat (started with a large deposit instead), and did not use roulette or any reduced risk method.

I went for a large deposit and I had a large balance anyway. Didn't play risk free, didn't queue bonuses. The only thing "unusual" about my play was that I made money out of it.

OK, I was wrong about rinse & repeat being the issue which is nothing new

I'm probably not wrong about the other bit though

I stacked a load. Only got to play a few through before they removed all stacked bonuses. Acc was suspended on Sunday but re-opened on the Tuesday and I got to keep my profit (around a grand). I played Casino Hold'em

 

[thelawnet]

OK, I was wrong about rinse & repeat being the issue which is nothing new

I'm probably not wrong about the other bit though

I stacked a load. Only got to play a few through before they removed all stacked bonuses. Acc was suspended on Sunday but re-opened on the Tuesday and I got to keep my profit (around a grand). I played Casino Hold'em

Betfair removed my stacked deposit, my bonuses and my winnings. They returned my deposit only while saying they had paid bonuses and winnings too. I played casino holdem at 300/time - certainly not riskfree - in fact at one point I was losing even with the bonuses.

Basically there's no logic like - risk-free players got banned or recycled winnings got banned, they simply took money from a lot of players and refused to explain why. Judging by their competence in handling the complaints I doubt it's more sophisticated than 'we lost money, let's steal it back'.

 

[jetset]

Possibly just a coincidence, but Betfair's share price dropped from GBP13 to GBP12.23 earlier today.

 

[Tengil]

A bit OT but heres some financial info about Betfair for those interested:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hard to say how profitable the casino business is as they lump betting, games (not solely casino) and poker into Core Betfair. You see the revenue for each segment but not the EBITDA or operating profit for lets say games.

If they indeed were hit for +-10 million then thats a serious hit and most likely (speculating) more than the annual profit of games.

They of course havent confiscated winnings from every player but probably came to a conclusion that it will be more profitable not to pay those negatively affected.
From their prospect you can read that they arent interested in Casual Customers. Edit: I doubt that their Heartland Customers will leave them whatever they do in this case and same goes for the majority of their Recreational Customers. Customer classifications are from the prospect.

 

[Nate]

Possibly just a coincidence, but Betfair's share price dropped from GBP13 to GBP12.23 earlier today.

I would anticipate further losses if this is very well publicised. Has anyone contacted a News Agency with regards to this?

Nate

 

[jetset]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, Betfair seems to be under the impression that if their lawyers say they have a right to confiscate these winnings, then that's what they can and will do.

But just because their legal team says that they can confiscate winnings doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do.

In my opinion, if players did not breach the terms and conditions of the bonus, then Betfair needs to "take it on the chin" and pay up. So it was a poorly written bonus - it should have never been approved - but it was...

You learn by your mistakes; you learn nothing by denying that mistakes were made. Admitting mistakes allows you to identify with the common folk, and it can actually improve business relations since it humanizes you. To hunker down in a defensive mode is not the way to handle this situation.

Never a truer word - these Betfair execs are getting the wrong guidance in their handling of this affair.

Use of phrases like "spirit of the offer," "bonus abuser" and "advantage player" usually indicate a questionable operator....not a listed company jealous of its reputation.

And whilst the notorious "FU clause" is too often a part of lawyer-written T&Cs, it's only rogues that resort to it.

Never thought I would see the day when Betfair was identified with this sort of low-class operator behaviour!

 

[Rhyzz]

I played Casino Hold'em and Spin-a-win both in risky ways, ie no risk free strategy at all. I played high stakes all the way.

...and here, dare I say, lies your problem. Noone plays these games unless they're looking to wager through a bonus, so that's why they will have flagged you. Not saying you have done anything wrong, but they were stupid enough to allow such low edge games to be played and got hurt, now they're targetting the classic bonus abuse games to identify who took 'advantage' of the offer.

 

[Nate]

An interesting thing to note from the link Spiderlegz provided:

Quote from the Business Review - Page 5 - Sub Category Customers:

"Deposits held on behalf of customers grew from GBP 230m to GBP 284m at the end of the year, an indication of the level of customers' ongoing trust in Betfair."

Nate

 

[thelawnet]

...and here, dare I say, lies your problem. Noone plays these games unless they're looking to wager through a bonus

Uh, so Playtech spent $x creating these games for the special purpose of bonus hunting?

I don't think so.

, so that's why they will have flagged you. Not saying you have done anything wrong, but they were stupid enough to allow such low edge games to be played and got hurt, now they're targetting the classic bonus abuse games to identify who took 'advantage' of the offer.

Again, there's no evidence of this. They lost money, so they went after the winners, quick and simple.

People have suggested it was low-risk roulette play, then they said no it as actually low house edge games - whatever, the evidence is they don't care what it was, the important thing is they ain't paying.

 

[hitobito2005]

they were stupid enough to allow such low edge games

Ridiculous think to say. Spin-a-win (on which I did a bulk of my wagering) has a HA of 2.5% - this is 5 times worse than standard Blackjack. There are certainly many better games to play if you want to reduce HA exposure.

Casino Hold'em has a better edge but is hardly a bonus hunters game.

What should I play to stay under the radar, slots? I don't like slots!

 

[GrandMaster]

The only problem is the jurastiction issue. I'm still not convinced that Betfair will respond to a court case brought against them in the UK. They will probably send back the court papers saying you have the wrong company (Betfair Malta being the correct company).

It might take a court case to establish that Betfair UK is responsible, before you can even issue preceedings against them regarding the bonus fiasco!

The casino is operated by a Betfair Casino Limited based in Malta. For claims up to 2000 euro you could try the European small claims procedure.

 

[Rhyzz]

What should I play to stay under the radar, slots? I don't like slots!

Nail on the head, or at least that's what they would like you to play. You have your opinion and I have mine so pointless to argue, I just speak from experience.

Anyway i'm not saying you've done anything wrong, quite the opposite, you've done the sensible thing and taken full advantage of the offer, I'm merely pointing out that they will have checked up on the commonly abused games and picked you up from there

 

[thelawnet]

Nail on the head, or at least that's what they would like you to play. You have your opinion and I have mine so pointless to argue, I just speak from experience.

Anyway i'm not saying you've done anything wrong, quite the opposite, you've done the sensible thing and taken full advantage of the offer, I'm merely pointing out that they will have checked up on the commonly abused games and picked you up from there

Don't think so. They will have seen withdrawals going through for €20k and €30k and gone from there. 'Abused games' (is this some kind of sexual assault on a card table?) is not the issue, the issue is that they offered an 'unlimited' bonus. It woud still have been a losing promotion for them if it was slots only.

 

[jetset]

The casino is operated by a Betfair Casino Limited based in Malta. For claims up to 2000 euro you could try the European small claims procedure.

Now there's an interesting and pragmatic suggestion...and it would presumably entail Betfair Casino explaining themselves in some detail.

 

[GOCC]

The only problem is the jurastiction issue. I'm still not convinced that Betfair will respond to a court case brought against them in the UK. They will probably send back the court papers saying you have the wrong company (Betfair Malta being the correct company).

It might take a court case to establish that Betfair UK is responsible, before you can even issue preceedings against them regarding the bonus fiasco!

I succesfully sued William Hill PLC for a case against their casino in Gibralter. William Hill argued that it was the wrong court and company but the judge ruled his court as a Forum of Convenience. When he did that, we adjourned and Hills agreed to pay plus costs and damages.

 

[skiny]

So... Which forum member is a lawyer wanting to take on a class action suit?

 

[GOCC]

So... Which forum member is a lawyer wanting to take on a class action suit?

You wouldn't need too. If someone has a claim of over 5k, they can sue and ask for it to be transferred to the mercantile court where any ruling could be used as a precedent in any further case.

This is obviously for UK claims.

 

[Joaopc56]

I have some news.

DECO (wich is a company here in Portugal who receives complains and defend customers) told me to write a letter to my bank´s Director. The letter must have a reply (I don´t know how to say it in English). They gave me the adress and help me with the situation. They said my bank must pay my money back in 10 working days, othewise DECO will assign a lawyer for me and take this case further, because as they said "the money was already in bank´s responsability and they can´t allow a 32k debit without any permission".

Cheers, just to keep you informed.