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ATTN: Casino Rep BETAT T&C's

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by refre, Aug 20, 2014.

    Aug 20, 2014
  1. refre

    refre Senior lurker PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Professional slot player
    Location:
    .
    In light of recent events, I've taken a closer look at BETAT's T&Cs.

    I'm hoping BETAT will comment and perhaps clarify on the following terms which caught my attention.


    While I've seen similar terms at other casinos, it's usually only initials and/or username which are required.
    Also, it usually applies to big (progressive) jackpots.
    Would the player be asked to send a picture? Would you use the one on file (ID)?
    This seems much to ask for such a small amount.
    Most players value their privacy, and would not like their name and picture tied to a big win.
    Other members please comment :)


    Ok, I'm reading this as
    Bonus winnings may capped at €25000.
    The maximum monthly withdrawal of bonus winnings will be 10 times your total deposits, or €25000, whichever is lower. In case of winning on your first deposit bonus, the maximum monthly withdrawal will be 10x you deposit?
    Witdrawal limits based on status/deposits are usually not found at accredited casinos.


    €6 almost coincides with the max bet of €6.5 when playing a bonus.
    I don't feel going from a €6.5 bet down to €3, after a big win, equals advantage play.
    Many recreational players use this strategy to secure a big win, or just to mix up bets and games, often depending on the variance of a game.


    Going by the last term, high value means €6 or more.
    I don't feel a table games player should be expected to keep such close attention to bet value.
    Due to the difference in variance, I think your term will accurately describe many players.
    Smaller bets for slots (High variance) and larger bets for table games (low variance).
    IMHO it would be better to disallow table games altogether, than to have terms this complicated.


    I would love if BETAT would comment on this.

    Freddy
     
    3 people like this.
  2. Aug 20, 2014
  3. mathsboy1975

    mathsboy1975 Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    software engineer
    Location:
    UK London
    Never noticed this but I really don't like that section 7.5. How on earth can you grant a casino the exclusive right to use your name? What would be the implications if you won big at two different casinos with this condition?? And what does "and to be fully cooperative with company representatives including support staff mean" exactly? £3000 is not a huge sum of money and it is not clear if this applies to a single spin, or a single login session, or something else, so I would also welcome clarification of this aspect also.

    Thanks for raising this refre - I really hate this kind of condition as players right to anonymity is an important thing for me and terms like this make me very uneasy. Now that you have raised this I am going to go through all of the terms and conditions of the casinos I use.
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Aug 20, 2014
  5. Igor82

    Igor82 Senior Member

    Location:
    Malta
    As i'm taking my bow away from the fora, i'll note the thread to the Casino Manger who can comment on each of the items.

    Kindly let him handle this in the morning.

    Thanks

    Igor
     
    3 people like this.
  6. Aug 21, 2014
  7. suzecat

    suzecat Dormant account CAG MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    California

    Maybe after a good night's sleep you will reconsider leaving us because we will miss your input, good will, charm, humor, and well just about everything that makes you you. :notworthy
     
    7 people like this.
  8. Aug 21, 2014
  9. Matt44UK

    Matt44UK On a Break

    Occupation:
    IT Tech
    Location:
    Hampshire, UK

    I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling DEEPLY uneasy about this. We are told, time and time again, that this is ALL RANDOM, right?

    So it follows then, that if casinos don't like us "grinding" bonuses or using betting patterns which they don't approve of, that things might not be as "random" as is pretended? Surely, it's no business of the casino whether we go from placing 5 X £6 bets to suddenly betting a 10 bets at a "mere" £2.50 etc etc??!?

    No such thing as a "system" in gambling/betting, right? The RNG treats us all equally, am I right?

    If you think offering us these bonuses with their (still exhorbitant, IMO) playthrough requirements of 25X-40X gives us mortals some sort of "advantage", then the answer is simple - STOP offering them. And while you're at it, stop issuing verbose and at times, completely incomprehensible T&Cs which bear a resemblance to "War and Peace" and have more twists and turns than a 15ft boa constrictor having an epileptic fit!
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Aug 21, 2014
  11. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Narnia
    This is crossing over into philosophy here but I believe that nothing is really random. It's all just cause and effect.
    With enough know-how you could predict the outcome of slots just as weather men can predict the weather.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Aug 21, 2014
  13. spoton

    spoton Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Right behind you
    Don't forget that the casinos have to put up with the competition aswell. It is a pretty much unregulated market, so if a casino decide to half their match bonus or double up the WR, they might loose alot of customers who only read the big print to the other joint who offer 300% with a 30x WR with 3 pages of different "spirit of the bonus" terms.

    The RNG treats everyone the same but you can also gain a bit from playing by mathemathical rules eventhough it won't change the RTP of the game.
     
  14. Aug 21, 2014
  15. rshkrn

    rshkrn Senior Member

    Occupation:
    unemployed
    Location:
    Asia
    please elaborate......this could potentially be the discovery of the century :D :p :D
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Aug 21, 2014
  17. CM_BETAT

    CM_BETAT I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    Head of Casino
    Location:
    Malta
    Hi all,

    Its been a very hectic day and Ive only just caught onto this on my way out of the office.

    Looking at some of those terms, they were drafted years ago by the lawyers preparing the casino for launch and they are far more draconian than what would be ever required - let alone enforced - by ourselves. Prior to any issuing of PR, players are contacted personally and asked if they uncomfortable with any information being disclosed and if the player requests to remain anonymous then we would never, ever, go against the player's will and point to such a clause. This is what happens when lawyers draft the original terms without us more humane people sitting in the same room ;)

    These terms are up for a major revamp soon. If you'll allow me until tomorrow, Ill get onto it and explain our actual stance on each of them. :thumbsup:

    Cheers,
    Karl
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
    7 people like this.
  18. Aug 21, 2014
  19. paul7388

    paul7388 Meister Member MM

    Occupation:
    not a lot
    Location:
    glasgow scotland
    Sounds great that they will be getting revamped and you are taking time to explain it. Not being negative here but I signed up to BETAT recently and it was a few of the terms that put me off so I never made first deposit. Tho to be fair they have all been explained on here recently that you don't enforce the rules like the one The casino may choose to not process withdrawals for a player should the player’s lifetime real money wagering not accrue to at least five times the total amount of funds deposited to the casino. As that looked like if you make a first deposit and win big there might be problems withdrawing but its since been explained it doesnt so I intend depositing soon. But great that you are updating them as tho BETAT is one of best in business some people that don't visit here would look at terms and go think ill play elsewhere.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Aug 22, 2014
  21. suzecat

    suzecat Dormant account CAG MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    California
    Karl, thank you for explaining the reasons for the PR rules. Well you know whenever you get lawyers involved you can be sure to: (1) spend money that was never budgeted for the project and; (2) attend lots of meetings that eventually boil down to why did we hire those lawyers? :D
     
  22. Aug 22, 2014
  23. mathsboy1975

    mathsboy1975 Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    software engineer
    Location:
    UK London
    Thankyou sir - that is good enough for me. This was the only term that I was slightly concerned about.
     
  24. Aug 22, 2014
  25. spintee

    spintee Meister Member webby mm2

    Occupation:
    gambler :)
    Location:
    Northants
    Any player now days will no the basics of t&c,

    Any reptuable casino will no a con player from the rest, & any decent casino will pay, Its nether been a problem with me as I am a small roler and do not bet big, If I had a good sum of cash than I would not dream of taking a deposit bonus, To many rules involed, Bet limit, Changing bet size, going from games to slots, Its all good when playing small amounts but when playing big stakes its it worth a bonus?

    There is 1 term that is abit sos
    All outstanding User Real Money balances, stemming from Bonuses made Real or other forms of monetary compensations will be capped at maximum monthly withdrawal amount of 10 times total deposited amount at the time of first withdrawal request or €25,000, whichever is lower.

    So if a first time depositer put in £20 and lost than got free spins and hit say £5,000, than withdraw will only be aloud at £200 amonth?

    but again any real con artist can read this 10 times total deposited amount at the time of first withdrawal request
    so if did deposit £20 what's stopping some one who say did win 5k making a deposit another 480 (there or about) so than they can withdraw the the whole 5k, it would of been better to say (time of 1st deposit) correct me if Im wrong dunover but I see that's 1 way to get around it,

    But like I said any genuine player would be ok especially with a site as good as this
     
  26. Aug 22, 2014
  27. SpinUk

    SpinUk Senior Member MM PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Marketing
    Location:
    London
    I don't know why Betat don't concerntrate on just running their casino like the vast majority of other casinos by taking and accepting some player risk rather than over legislating rules and regulations about advantage players.

    Other casinos seem to accept that when a loophole is found, you pay the player and shut that loophole down. The industry is so mature now that there are very few if any loopholes left.

    Cry's of "But wait, we only have these in place against advantage players and fraudsters, we would never penalise genuine players" seem rather hollow when we have recent instances of genuine players having winnings confiscated for simply winning.

    Betats t and c's (amplified x 100 now for Slotty Vegas) seem to be more creating a zero business risk model, where the cashflow of the casino is pretty much guaranteed, but at the detriment of the player.

    Guys, it doesn't work like that. The odds are stacked WAY in your favour from the start - you need to accept the risk like everyone else if you want a solid reputation, which means that these terms either point to poor judgement or simply underfunding.
     
  28. Aug 22, 2014
  29. petro

    petro Dormant account, per user request PABnoaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Narnia
    Along with that please have a review of the play though on your bonuses. 60xB is too much imo.
    30-35xB for slots is much more reasonable.
     
  30. Aug 22, 2014
  31. spintee

    spintee Meister Member webby mm2

    Occupation:
    gambler :)
    Location:
    Northants
    Do people rlise the bonus money is free, if you win you take out, Only when you hit the bonus you canot take take, but bear in mind if you lost your own money than you the free money therem Yes there may be restrictions and if you have a good run than that bonus can tirn into cas so basicly you have nothing to lose, There is 1 cluase I do not no if max bet ect counts if you got the bonus on hold, other wise its the best structure about

    Most sites lock your cash in with bonus, If not than only wager counts as soon as you kick in to, Not betatfrom what I can see if you sttuck a 100 in and got 100 free and only went down to 150 and won 10,000 than you can withdraw, if still playing than bonus still play threw still runs in background so if you did do play threw than that bonus will jump into acount cash

    other site either put 100 in gett 100 free and your money is locked untill plythrew, other sites they do not count play threw to u hit bonus, so you can depo 100, play 100.000 thousand with your own cash than you go into bonus than it starts from there as does not mater what u played b4, as is with bet at, deposit 100 take 100 bonus, after a while u win big take out, if playing for long time than than bonus bar is complete with extra funds,
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Aug 23, 2014
  33. CM_BETAT

    CM_BETAT I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    Head of Casino
    Location:
    Malta
    Hi Freddy,

    As I mentioned, these terms are up for review as they were drafted years ago and are either obsolete or heavy handed to the point that they wouldn’t even be enforced by us. As always and by now as Im sure everyone here is aware, as a business we are known to not point to unfair clauses and are more than willing to overturn and adjust any terms which come across as one sided, with the help of the guys in the community..

    Outdated and never used. It’s been modified to reflect reasonable amounts and reasonable requests. Please see modified terms below.
    This entire section has been removed (don’t know how it remained there). Both these terms have now been superseded by term 8.19 which states that in the event of very large wins, the casino may opt to pay out non-jackpot winnings at as installations that are capped at €25,000 per month until the amount is paid in full, irrelevant of whether it is made with bonus funds or real funds. Not once since our launch years ago have these two clauses been enforced with any players, and they are up for removal upon next revisal.

    The bonus abuse conditions under term 12.4 build the guidelines for what we feel constitutes to potential abusive gameplay when bonus funds are in use. Listing every example for what a players relevant bet size, bankroll, game selection and potential motivation are would naturally lead to pages of case studies which would be neither feasible nor conclusive. While other operators may feel it is not necessary to list such guidelines, we feel it is only fair that players do know what we constitute as potential bonus abuse with as little room for ambiguity as possible and we link these specific terms directly to every bonus available to a player.

    This clause talks about a combination of any, meaning a player has breached more than one of the sub-clauses. Your suggestion to disallow table games on such bonuses is accurate, and in fact we split our table games bonus offers from those that are slot based; and seeing that each bonus has linkable, accessible terms from within the game or few pages across the site, when providing a table offering a bet size is adjusted accordingly or removed entirely. That said, there must be a default to refer to for “all other” cases which is €6.00. It’s also important to note that term 12.4.1 further defines a high value hand as a hand that is greater than 20% of bankroll, and as such larger deposits will yield greater bets than €6 without reprimand.

    Once again, these terms are up for a full review so you can expect a less drastic, more suitable concise version soon.

    Regards
    Karl
     
    3 people like this.
  34. Aug 23, 2014
  35. CM_BETAT

    CM_BETAT I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    Head of Casino
    Location:
    Malta
    Yes, we have repeated this many times. Many players dont seen to grasp that their deposits do not get tied in by our bonuses, and any wins made with real funds could be withdrawn at any time without the need to fulfil lengthy wagering requirements like many other casinos. This has been an ongoing debate with members in here for long time now, and we are even considering to the more common method of locking in winnings with lower wagering requirements. This is not our preferred option, but it seems players are more accustomed to it so it could be a way forward.
     
  36. Aug 23, 2014
  37. refre

    refre Senior lurker PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Professional slot player
    Location:
    .
    Thank you.

    I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns Karl, and making some adjustments to your T&Cs!

    I must say I've had a good time at Betat since signing up recently.

    I'm glad you guys are so accessible here at the forums.


    Thanks!


    Freddy
     
    2 people like this.
  38. Aug 26, 2014
  39. lausitzer28

    lausitzer28 Banned User - twitwad

    Occupation:
    daytrader
    Location:
    Lusatia
    serious question, i haven´t played for some month at betat and i thinking about to take the 2nd deposit bonus. i prefer to play Live Roulette and if i bet 10€ on Red/Black can i get problems with the bonus/ do i break the rules? (because of the max 6,50)
     

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