Ask me anything (about slots)!

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@trancemonkey lol it's coming from one of the casino's i'm playing at themself, here i'll copy paste it for you:

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So yes, there you have it. A redistribution system that wageres all players bets and randomly, distributes it among players. They are naming 3 brands which appearantly use that type of system.

To be fair to old bloaty, it does read like everything is one big pool. If I didn't know better i could easily get to his conclusion.

The problem McBloat has is that he then takes a this badly written load of rubbish from god knows what site and uses it as proof everything is rigged, and ignores (as usual) everything else I say and every question I ask him.

@Bloatgoat ... what site was it?
 
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It's not so difficult to think. You have a GAME PROVIDER which a casino licences games from. All these plays (bets, wagering of players) are being dumped onto one big pile. A RNG is deciding who gets a win randomly, passing that 95% RTP as advertised. I think this is how it works in a nutshell. It's exactly as the VIP casino employee mentioned, it does'nt mean that the wins are fairly distributed based upon my bets or avg wagering.

Read this:
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I got pretty frustated that after stomping 1200 euro of my own money onto a slot did'nt get me the result i was looking for. I got kind of mad towards the casino on why this was happening. Remember i come from landbased, and at a certain bankroll you can expect to see a turnover. I'm pretty sure the rest playing in the casino at that moment where enjoying big wins all the time, lol. So he pretty much straightforwarded answered on how that works. The landbased applies this model as well; blocks of 8 to 16 machines linked together, but at least gives a fair share of return when playing big. This is not what i was encountering over various weeks of playing. I feel like being taken in the rear.

This is to be honest not my way of playing a slot at all. He mentioned 3 pretty big brands who assumably work on that pattern. Player profiling, it all makes sense. Sorry Trancemonkey but the world of online casino's is not what's happening to your relatively small 10+ people business. And anyone in here who is disbelieving what i'm writing, see for yourself.
 
I always experienced that spins where never really random, but more like a system tossing some win on your avg bet. It's up to the game on how presentation of that win follows. Sometimes i was winning a bit here and there, i always feel like on the other side of the platform someone is wagering (losing) bigtime. When it's busy hours you could certainly see a win here and there, when it's calm (think of at night) it's dead as a horse.

So you got players being pushed towards eachother to play more, wildly and esp. longer before a big win comes. As i posted the video before of the 50 euro bet on a slot in a landbased casino, believe me, i only stuck 250 euro inside the machine. The last spin gave me the magical bonus round ending up in 4900 euro. That is the luck i am completely missing with online play. The only luck you get is this temporary big win right after another deposit.

Again; it's a bag of dirty tricks that they have. It's far from 'honest' or 'fair' gaming. I wrote before as well; that lets say i dump a 100 euro on my account, start autoplaying at just 1 euro a spin, in the end lose it all. But the thing is compensating all the damn time. Just to cover up the numbers and make it as close as 95% RTP. Almost nobody i know is going to deposit a 100, play back all the way to 20, and hit withdrawl. It's like well crafted maths over the course of years, spins and players behaviour.

This is big data fella's. And the casino's are the first to really implement that. You have half a clue what is going on behind your slot.

Edit: read the link about serversided gaming.

Linked gaming content, support for wide area multiplayer and progressive jackpots.
Personalization through the use of player profiles.
Real-time monitoring of game terminal status and game transactions.
Higher security, since the RNG and game logic can’t be manipulated at individual game terminals. (this was already obvious)
Responsible gaming features that require advanced monitoring capabilities.
 
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To be fair to old bloaty, it does read like everything is one big pool. If I didn't know better i could easily get to his conclusion.

The problem McBloat has is that he then takes a this badly written load of rubbish from god knows what site and uses it as proof everything is rigged, and ignores (as usual) everything else I say and every question I ask him.

@Bloatgoat ... what site was it?

Transmonkey!

What is your opinion about if I deposit by £100 into 10 different casinos and play at all of them one slot game (for example Dead or Alive at £1 per spin)
  • will this increase my chances for 10 times to get a big win?
  • would it be more advantageous to play at one casino for £1000 at £1 per spin?
  • is every game session completely independent of others?
  • is it known to software provider through IP (or any other way) that there is only one player connected to 10 sessions?
Thank's!
 
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Transmonkey!

What is your opinion about if I deposit by £100 into 10 different casinos and play at all of them one slot game (for example Dead or Alive at £1 per spin)
  • will this increase my chances for 10 times to get a big win?
  • would it be more advantageous to play at one casino for £1000 at £1 per spin?
  • is every game session completely independent of others?
  • is it known to software provider through IP (or any other way) that there is only one player connected to 10 sessions?
Thank's!

No, no, yes, yes but they don't care.
 
I always experienced that spins where never really random, but more like a system tossing some win on your avg bet. It's up to the game on how presentation of that win follows. Sometimes i was winning a bit here and there, i always feel like on the other side of the platform someone is wagering (losing) bigtime. When it's busy hours you could certainly see a win here and there, when it's calm (think of at night) it's dead as a horse.

So you got players being pushed towards eachother to play more, wildly and esp. longer before a big win comes. As i posted the video before of the 50 euro bet on a slot in a landbased casino, believe me, i only stuck 250 euro inside the machine. The last spin gave me the magical bonus round ending up in 4900 euro. That is the luck i am completely missing with online play. The only luck you get is this temporary big win right after another deposit.

Again; it's a bag of dirty tricks that they have. It's far from 'honest' or 'fair' gaming. I wrote before as well; that lets say i dump a 100 euro on my account, start autoplaying at just 1 euro a spin, in the end lose it all. But the thing is compensating all the damn time. Just to cover up the numbers and make it as close as 95% RTP. Almost nobody i know is going to deposit a 100, play back all the way to 20, and hit withdrawl. It's like well crafted maths over the course of years, spins and players behaviour.

This is big data fella's. And the casino's are the first to really implement that. You have half a clue what is going on behind your slot.

Edit: read the link about serversided gaming.

Bloatgoat... why do you keep posting crap as proof of things. SBG (server based gaming) has been around many years. It has nothing whatsoever to do with pooling of wins... what you are talking about is super complex and way more difficult to implement (and illegal) than random games.
 
Transmonkey!

What is your opinion about if I deposit by £100 into 10 different casinos and play at all of them one slot game (for example Dead or Alive at £1 per spin)
  • will this increase my chances for 10 times to get a big win?
  • would it be more advantageous to play at one casino for £1000 at £1 per spin?
  • is every game session completely independent of others?
  • is it known to software provider through IP (or any other way) that there is only one player connected to 10 sessions?
Thank's!

Exactly what @TheresNoDInBonanza said... if it made a difference, then they would be connected/rigged/illegal.
 
I always experienced that spins where never really random, but more like a system tossing some win on your avg bet. It's up to the game on how presentation of that win follows. Sometimes i was winning a bit here and there, i always feel like on the other side of the platform someone is wagering (losing) bigtime. When it's busy hours you could certainly see a win here and there, when it's calm (think of at night) it's dead as a horse.

So you got players being pushed towards eachother to play more, wildly and esp. longer before a big win comes. As i posted the video before of the 50 euro bet on a slot in a landbased casino, believe me, i only stuck 250 euro inside the machine. The last spin gave me the magical bonus round ending up in 4900 euro. That is the luck i am completely missing with online play. The only luck you get is this temporary big win right after another deposit.

Again; it's a bag of dirty tricks that they have. It's far from 'honest' or 'fair' gaming. I wrote before as well; that lets say i dump a 100 euro on my account, start autoplaying at just 1 euro a spin, in the end lose it all. But the thing is compensating all the damn time. Just to cover up the numbers and make it as close as 95% RTP. Almost nobody i know is going to deposit a 100, play back all the way to 20, and hit withdrawl. It's like well crafted maths over the course of years, spins and players behaviour.

This is big data fella's. And the casino's are the first to really implement that. You have half a clue what is going on behind your slot.

Edit: read the link about serversided gaming.

Yes... linked gaming content is where you have site wide (or international) linked progressives. Like MegaJackpots or MegaMoolah
 
Anyway... please guys and gals, if you want to start another rigged thread them fine, but let's keep this one to a minimum unless you are asking specific questions and are willing to listen to the answers (even if you don't agree)
 
@trancemonkey you just don't get it man, you only work at a company that designs these games, you haven't read a thing on the internet out of context and misinterpreted it entirely based upon your own self assured ego ensuring it as an immutable truth to prove that your own errors aren't actually your own but the result of some shady cabal with the explicit goal of screwing you and only very specifically you over to make you look like a fool.

Idiot.
 
@trancemonkey you just don't get it man, you only work at a company that designs these games, you haven't read a thing on the internet out of context and misinterpreted it entirely based upon your own self assured ego ensuring it as an immutable truth to prove that your own errors aren't actually your own but the result of some shady cabal with the explicit goal of screwing you and only very specifically you over to make you look like a fool.

Idiot.

And I'm part of the conspiracy anyway, remember :)
I feel like a NASA scientist reading a flat earth thread...
 
Okay, thanks again to trancemonkey for this epic discussion.

I have an easy question and a "deep" one:

1. Does pressing "stop" on a spin have any effect on the outcome?

2. Finally I wanted to ask about effective RTP. I could make a game that has a special "jackpot" feature which returns 100,000 times your bet size, with a probability of 1 in a million. This would contribute 10% to the RTP. I could make a game like this with RTP of 98.5% and people would think it's a very well paying slot, but only in theory. You would have to spend millions to get that RTP. For everyone else, assuming they never hit the jackpot, the RTP is 88.5%. Is there any way to determine the "practical" RTP of a game, i.e. what a normal person would expect to take away if he/she came in and made 1000 spins and didn't hit any jackpots?

I ask this because I've seen games which I think do this. I have seen a game which advertises itself as 97%, but over the course of several hundreds spins at minimum stakes I just saw my funds gradually drop. I started writing down my cash after every 100 spins and it seemed to be dropping at a linear rate which appears to return about 80% per 100 spins, not the 97% advertised. Yes, I know, randomness, variance, etc., but the linear consistency seems to indicate that this is pretty much where the "practical" RTP is, unless I've been consistently unlucky. However, it also seems quite likely to be caused by some really rare feature which triggers very rarely, as I explained above.

I feel like this hides the actual RTP from a player's standpoint. If players wanted massive fantasy wins they would play the lottery. So the second part of the question is, do you think there can be some sort of regulation that gives a more honest picture of the returns, than the theoretical RTP?
 
Okay, thanks again to trancemonkey for this epic discussion.

I have an easy question and a "deep" one:

1. Does pressing "stop" on a spin have any effect on the outcome?

2. Finally I wanted to ask about effective RTP. I could make a game that has a special "jackpot" feature which returns 100,000 times your bet size, with a probability of 1 in a million. This would contribute 10% to the RTP. I could make a game like this with RTP of 98.5% and people would think it's a very well paying slot, but only in theory. You would have to spend millions to get that RTP. For everyone else, assuming they never hit the jackpot, the RTP is 88.5%. Is there any way to determine the "practical" RTP of a game, i.e. what a normal person would expect to take away if he/she came in and made 1000 spins and didn't hit any jackpots?

I ask this because I've seen games which I think do this. I have seen a game which advertises itself as 97%, but over the course of several hundreds spins at minimum stakes I just saw my funds gradually drop. I started writing down my cash after every 100 spins and it seemed to be dropping at a linear rate which appears to return about 80% per 100 spins, not the 97% advertised. Yes, I know, randomness, variance, etc., but the linear consistency seems to indicate that this is pretty much where the "practical" RTP is, unless I've been consistently unlucky. However, it also seems quite likely to be caused by some really rare feature which triggers very rarely, as I explained above.

I feel like this hides the actual RTP from a player's standpoint. If players wanted massive fantasy wins they would play the lottery. So the second part of the question is, do you think there can be some sort of regulation that gives a more honest picture of the returns, than the theoretical RTP?

Slam Stop (or fast stop) has no effect whatsoever on the outcome. It's just to allow you to play faster.

With regards to the jackpot question, most games should state their jackpot RTP contribution. So the standard RTP should be known to the player.

Where they don't, then yes they are showing an RTP over a very long cycle... billions of games most likely.
 
In theory it does change future outcomes rather than the current one.

As pressing stop wont change the current outcome but as you will be hitting the next RNG call at a different time you could say you next outcome could be different but you won't know if its for better or for worse lol

And as Dio implied you will lose faster on average too as you will be playing faster spins and facing the house edge more frequently.
 
In theory it does change future outcomes rather than the current one.

As pressing stop wont change the current outcome but as you will be hitting the next RNG call at a different time you could say you next outcome could be different but you won't know if its for better or for worse lol

And as Dio implied you will lose faster on average too as you will be playing faster spins and facing the house edge more frequently.

So does pausing to fart before you press the start button.
 
Was reading the last pages...

To anyone that says "after a big win you always lose" there is a recent video with back to back 1500x wins in EC.
I have also done it on BD and there are many reported back to back wins here.

To anyone that says "max bet pays differently" there is a thread with accidental max bet wins.
 
Okay, thanks again to trancemonkey for this epic discussion.

I have an easy question and a "deep" one:

1. Does pressing "stop" on a spin have any effect on the outcome?

2. Finally I wanted to ask about effective RTP. I could make a game that has a special "jackpot" feature which returns 100,000 times your bet size, with a probability of 1 in a million. This would contribute 10% to the RTP. I could make a game like this with RTP of 98.5% and people would think it's a very well paying slot, but only in theory. You would have to spend millions to get that RTP. For everyone else, assuming they never hit the jackpot, the RTP is 88.5%. Is there any way to determine the "practical" RTP of a game, i.e. what a normal person would expect to take away if he/she came in and made 1000 spins and didn't hit any jackpots?

I ask this because I've seen games which I think do this. I have seen a game which advertises itself as 97%, but over the course of several hundreds spins at minimum stakes I just saw my funds gradually drop. I started writing down my cash after every 100 spins and it seemed to be dropping at a linear rate which appears to return about 80% per 100 spins, not the 97% advertised. Yes, I know, randomness, variance, etc., but the linear consistency seems to indicate that this is pretty much where the "practical" RTP is, unless I've been consistently unlucky. However, it also seems quite likely to be caused by some really rare feature which triggers very rarely, as I explained above.

I feel like this hides the actual RTP from a player's standpoint. If players wanted massive fantasy wins they would play the lottery. So the second part of the question is, do you think there can be some sort of regulation that gives a more honest picture of the returns, than the theoretical RTP?


This is the only Progressive slot I did, which coincidentally had a 10% JP contribution!

It was quite harsh RTP if playing lower stake but it was one of the few progressive games at the time where you could win the main progressive from min stake, although that would mean playing on less than max lines and if you hit the JP on a unplayed line it paid nothing.

it was 88,90,92.94,96% with 7.5% going to the progressive on all stakes, and 2.5% to reserve, which IMO was way too much but it allowed the pots to rise quick and was a relatively "quick hit" if playing max lines. Its a long time now but i still remember someone hitting the JP when it was on 12.8k ish on 50p for a just over 25,000x bet..... lucky as hell that they hit the JP on line 1.

All wins below JP win could also be gambled 50/50 up to 5 times using the heads or tails feature.

Progressive wasn't capped at all climbs till won
Max win from base on max bet was £1000 ( 5 lines of plain red 7 ) 400x bet 12,800x if got balls to gamble 5 times lol

The other thing was, that there was 3 JP symbols stacked on reel 1 so if you landed that and reel 2 on the middle you had a very realistic chance of JP from there if playing max lines, not gonna give the math away but it was crazy close as anywhere on reel 3 was a JP.


Only pics I can find at mo were the early concept images off the simulator, but you get the idea.

Flaming7.jpg
 
Hello all.

i will admit to not having read all 92 pages of this thread so far, so sorry if these questions have already been asked.

1. Bonus rounds. Are the triggering of bonus rounds determined by the rng or is it simply how the front end of the game decides to display the win to you?

2. How does the front end work in terms of how it dispays wins? What i mean is, does the front end have modes of play where for example it will do bonus rounds more frequently for a while then change? A good example of this is Netent's Starburst, where it feels like the game will favour dropping in the wild columns for a period of time then go cold on them.

3. Does the rng dictate the win amount when you press spin or does it dictate the position of the reels? For example take Netent's Invisible Man. I could win say £45.60 from a bonus round. Their bonus rounds are variable length. How is that amount decided upon? Once you are in a bonus round, is the ultimate outcome already determined?

4. I am not disputing long term rtp. However, does a slot have different modes of play that it can switch between during a session, or more widely at server level? Again using starburst as the example here, for a supposedly low variance slot it quite frequently appears to go into a higher variance mode where you can go 30 dead spins easy. Other times it plays more lively. Its hard to believe this is truly random.

5. Is it in anyway possible to get hold of PAR tables for current popular games, eg netent? Wouldnt it be nice to actually see the probabilities of various wins.

Thanks.
 
These, and more, questions have been answered previously in this thread - but as you say, it's a behemoth now, so i don't blame you for not checking. I certainly wouldn't, that's for sure ;)
Firstly, let me say a couple of things:

1. Thanks for the questions!
2. Thanks for being a part of the forum! :)
3. There are some members here who will ardently disagree with everything i'm about to say when i answer you, but what i'm telling you is facts as i know them. I don't speak for everyone - i'm sure in some parts of the world there are dodgy companies doing dodgy things - but my answers are almost certainly true of every UKGC (and probably MGA) licenced games provider.

Hello all.

i will admit to not having read all 92 pages of this thread so far, so sorry if these questions have already been asked.

1. Bonus rounds. Are the triggering of bonus rounds determined by the rng or is it simply how the front end of the game decides to display the win to you?
All outcomes in a game are determined by the RNG. There are many, many ways to make a slot game. And yes, picking a win and then going through some complex algorithm to determine how to show it WOULD be possible, and quite possible legal, but it's also how no-one (in my experience) makes games. There are some games (like jammin jars) which have many (millions+) outcomes predetermined, and the RNG picks which one to show you, and then you are basically watching a movie of the win being awarded, but the RNG in that case has picked sequency 13,250 and that sequence happens to give you a bonus. Most games that look like they are using reels will likely run on a reel band type system - where the RNG gives 5 reel stops (using whatever alogrithm the games provider has implemented to determine the reel stops) and the game just spins to those positions. Simples :)

2. How does the front end work in terms of how it dispays wins? What i mean is, does the front end have modes of play where for example it will do bonus rounds more frequently for a while then change? A good example of this is Netent's Starburst, where it feels like the game will favour dropping in the wild columns for a period of time then go cold on them.
Nope - simply not true, not legal, and not done.

Just so you're not consufed - the front end is the client (the bit you play) and the server is where the game engine (the maths, accounting, etc.) is stored. This system is used for many reasons, including security (so you can't hack it). The client is completely dumb to game maths - it just does what the server tells it to do.

3. Does the rng dictate the win amount when you press spin or does it dictate the position of the reels? For example take Netent's Invisible Man. I could win say £45.60 from a bonus round. Their bonus rounds are variable length. How is that amount decided upon? Once you are in a bonus round, is the ultimate outcome already determined?
Each spin will be randomly determined. It almost certainly (i say almost, because Jammin Jars and other games like that are slightly different, as mentioned) has not picked a value and then got to it. I've never come across a slot game that does it that way - why would you? It's all calculated in the maths when we make the game - we look at how the feature will be on average, and also how good / bad it can be, and we can tune the games in many different ways - our job as game producers / designers is to make the best maths we can for the game design we have. No rigging, compensating, or doing shady shenanigans because quite simply we don't need to :)

4. I am not disputing long term rtp. However, does a slot have different modes of play that it can switch between during a session, or more widely at server level? Again using starburst as the example here, for a supposedly low variance slot it quite frequently appears to go into a higher variance mode where you can go 30 dead spins easy. Other times it plays more lively. Its hard to believe this is truly random.
Nope, this would be illegal for a start, and utterly pointless. Random games act in this way precisely because they are random. Get a dice and roll it, and sometimes you'll have runs where it's only high numbers, or mainly odd, or whatever. It's just luck.

5. Is it in anyway possible to get hold of PAR tables for current popular games, eg netent? Wouldnt it be nice to actually see the probabilities of various wins.

Thanks.

There are some old games knocking around on the internet somewhere i'm sure - but the PAR sheets contain the IP of the game. It's the maths of the games that is THE most important thing, so companies don't give that away easily.

Hope those answers helped.

Dave
 
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