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all winnings removed if withdrawal before WR met

Thoughts on this "all winnings removed" clause? (please read thread before voting)

  • In a word, it sucks, but them's the breaks.

    Votes: 74 11.3%
  • Unacceptable for an "Accredited Casino"

    Votes: 535 81.7%
  • Acceptable for casinos not listed at Casinomeister

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • I believe it is acceptable.

    Votes: 40 6.1%

  • Total voters
    655
The clause is a disclaimer, which always preempts an excuse to take something away from someone without justification or a refusal to pay someone benefits they rightfully deserve.

In my mind, it is clearly a trap for the unsuspecting player. There is no reason to penalize a player for requesting a withdrawal before they have met wagering requirements. I consider it predatory practice and any casino that has it in their terms and conditions to be a substandard organization.
 
Actually everybody is just suspecting things, but we don't know anything factual. Without them it cannot be decided crearly if such a rule is good or bad. I think Sega Casino has such a rule, but they have a wager counter. So for example in case of Sega Casino, such a rule won't hurt. It may hurt only those who cannot make a profit because of this limitation, but won't hurt those who can. And there are numerous ones who can, I think. (I am not considering the 110x WR now, that is a totally different issue than the WR limitation I think).

However there are casinos out there that has this rule without a counter. That might not be a problem for experienced players, but can be to beginners. I think the starting thread should tell more. Everybody is complaining about everything here, but the truth is that we don't know clearly what's behind the starting thread, and until then we are just shouting to the desert.

Such a rule is not the biggest problem of bonuses. I think if game features, settings and limits are bad, too tight in the casino, that can be much more threatening than a limitation about when you can cash out. Also the WR size is much more threatening than a cash out limitation I think. For me being able to cash out before completing the wagering requirements or not is almost the last aspect that I check in case I read the bonus rules. So I am surprised this passage of the terms of a casino makes so much noise. It is a bigger problem for me that the payout is so bad in case many casinos, even some accredited ones.
 
Oh, just one more thing that came to my mind.

I think that if many of us here is angry about such rules, we should take a look at the statistics on how many times players had problems with this, and in what casinos. Because I remember from my and other player's cases that in case the casino requires somebody to complete the WR before cashing out, and the player doesn't discover this rule in the beginning, and the system doesn't deny the cash out automatically, but allows to put it on pending status, then the withdrawal is turned back by the cash out department, and the player is asked to wager more. So even if the counter is missing, if a place is reputable and honest, they won't confiscate it I think, only in radical cases (for example if somebody is doing it all the time). I have such experience, I also was in such a situation, and my withdrawal was turned back and was asked to wager more. So I think with the counter missing, such a rule makes problems in case of infamous casinos most of the time, the more popular ones will consider these rules much more loosely.
 
These terms are as lame as it gets. The casino is allready keeping track of your playthrough but yet they require you to keep track yourself - which is not an easy task for the disgustingly high playthrough amts. What possible reason is there for them to not share your current playthrough towards a bonus? Please, tell me, because I cannot for the life of me think of a valid reason. If I lose track of my playthrough progress, will support tell me what it is?

I could go on forever.... I have been an active depositor at many casino for years, and things like this are sickening. Please tell me which casino this is so I can ensure that I have nothing to do with them or any of their sister casinos. They are, in my opinion, predatory thieves that should be locked up and the key thrown away!

How do you know the WR was not tracked by a counter that the player could see? You are complaining, but nothing like this was mentioned in the statring thread. We have no info on how things are tacked there, so how do you know it to be able to complain about it?
 
This has to be part of a casino's T&Cs, I would think, not software specific. However, the operator should have no such verbiage, as accounting would be able to catch the WR issue and simply just return the amount to the player's balance and notify them of how much more wagering they need to do before the withdrawal can be processed. I have heard of rogue casinos confiscating winnings because a player attempted to withdraw before the WR was met. Rogue and questionable casinos do not enable the WR counter typically found in the more reputable casino cashiers.

TakeTheMoney's post is exactly right. I agree 100% with him.
 
I apologize if this has been stated... This should not be used in a clause. The clause should be one that either does not allow for a withdrawal or simply returns everything back to one's account if a withdrawal is attempted without first meeting the wagering requirements.
 
i agree with this term.... i mean... all winnings removed if withdrawal before WR met cause it will give the casino very big income :notworthy
For example... casino give 200% initial deposit. So deposit as little as 25 play with 75... Great i got enough chips to rip the casino.... No you not... :) the term
all winnings removed if withdrawal before WR met and WR is 30x deposit+bonus... its mean your total bet should be 2250 ( on slots ) and more worst could be more than 22500 if you play other game before withdrawal just for 25 initial deposit :notworthy How you will do that? Before reach 1000 all your chips maybe already gone... In other word they rip you slowly :lolup:
It better than we dont get any initial bonus and so no wagering req...
Is there any casino that not give any initial deposit bonus.... ?
 
no doubt

Confiscation is OUT of the question !!! It is absolutely a predatory way of the casino to "fight abusers " but actually it is pure abuse from the casino itself !! The only reasonable action that a casino should take in such case is to void winnings and balace BUT return back the deposit (and eventually get the user bonus-banned)I ve experienced several times this and it is the RIGHT thing.
 
I voted "unacceptable".

But I will say this:
A business can do what they want with the rules, but they have to be pretty dim to think that sort of tactic will be good for business.

Putting the onus on the player to count wagers, and punishing a customer for miscounting is predatory.

Hey! they could add a line in the T&C's to confiscate for withdrawing on days that start with S or T and odd numbered calender days -- that would be good for business. Or just go ahead and rig the games and stop pretending to be fair.

I won't be playing here:
:barf:PURPLE LOUNGE
 
Bonuses a joke !!

In my opinion bonuses are an outright joke ! The only way a bonus should even be permitted with any online casino should be if they were used as they are in land based Casinos -- play through one time and then can cash out any winnings . I would vote to eliminate bonuses and associated problems completely . There must be an honest way to attract players and that may be the key -- honesty !!!!

We all rely heavily on Casinomeister and I feel any casino with practices of this nature should be listed as a Rogue Casino !!! We expect no less from Casinomeister . The online casino industry must clean up their act or face the inevitable loss of all players . Posting carefully monitored pay-out percentages would be a good start toward attracting players . Their credibility as well as that of Casinomeister is at stake !!

Jamie
 
i have seen the clause and clauses like this before on sites i have reviewed. when i have some free time i will visit all the casinos i have reviewed and check each of them. but i think it is more common than we might think. it may be worded differently but basically if u withdraw b4 u complete the bonus u lose it all.

i also agree with the poster above me.bonuses are way out of hand and cause tons of issues, offer honest games, better payout percentages on games and better loyalty programs. personally i refuse every bonus. they are just not worth the hassle.
 
Talk about timing! I voted unacceptable. I too, within the last three days, had a similar experience w/WR re a bonus. I also will not name the casino. I was doing quite well on a $25 ND bonus, i.e. I had been playing for approx 7 hours. I had over $150, was getting tired, so went to cashier to WD $100. During procedure to WD, I noticed that something popped up stating that if I had not met WR, the amount of my request would be returned to my account. Not a prob, all went well, however I was still not certain that I had met the WR. Sure 'nuff next a.m. receive an email explaining that I did not meet the WR, and requested amount was returned to my account. I thought not a biggie, and attempted to log back into casino. I was locked out! I then replied to the email the casino had just sent me (re not meeting WR) and explained that I was good with that, I had already read their terms, not a problem, but why am I locked out of my account?! Got an email back stating, (I just love this one!) "we prefer you to contact us on life support :what:(huh?!!) in order to confirm the agreement regarding your with drawl issue.
Give us a call and we will open your account while we talk to you. "


So, I wrote back the following: (Please note; words spelled incorrectly are on purpose. Just using their 'lingo') Hello xxxxxx,
Thank you for your response. I was not aware that I have a with drawl issue. I never had a with drawl issue. I tried to withdraw as I had no way of determining where I was at with your terms and conditions of the bonus issued, of which by the way, I agreed to your terms when I decided to use the bonus. I don't have a problem with my with drawl request being denied because I have not met the terms. Also, in my last email I confirmed that I understood why my request was denied and I'm good with that. So, why is it I have been locked out of my account and why must I jump through hoops by calling your 'life support' just to log into my account?
In the initial email from the casino regarding the reversal of my with drawl, nothing was mentioned about having to call. And I quote "We have reversed your cashin into your play balance so you may continue wagering until you meet the requirements." End quote. It would have been nice if there were a mention of me having to call in that email, rather than me trying to log in unsuccessfully numerous times. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can find no where in your terms that state I will be locked out of my account and will not be able to continue play until I call your 'life support' should I mistakenly attempt to withdraw while I have not met the terms and conditions of the bonus.
Again, I have already agreed to your terms by using the bonus, I am stating again I am in agreement, and I understand your terms and I understand why my with drawl request was reversed. Now, do you still need me to call? If so, why would you need to hear a voice to confirm this agreement, you have the agreement with this writing, you had the agreement with my last email, plus you had the agreement with my initial use of the bonus.
Regards,
Julez

I know, may seem petty on my part but I hate phones, and this stuff pisses me off. I then received an email which stated the following: Regarding your last email, you have stated the acceptance of the conditions, therefore your account has been open.
I logged back in and needless to say, everything was gone within 20 minutes. This type of behavior sets off huge red flags. I have removed the software from my computer and because of their implementing rules as they go, I have no desire to return there, let alone make a deposit. Yeah, I'm from the US but I'm not that hard up to play online.
My thoughts; they only do this crap and get away with it cuz they can.
 
Apparently, they thought you would have encountered a heart attack after all those hassles so the need for 'life support'.:D

I cannot understand how and why it is necessary to abide by such ridiculous terms. The casino will not lose out by simply reversing the withdrawal for the player to finish the WRs. In any contract there is the element of consideration from both parties. I cannot find this from the casino in relation to this term. Only the casino gains and hence the player should not be bound by it although he has consented by stating the the terms and conditions have been read and agreed with.
 
Leveraged Earnings, Properly Conveyed Promotional Terms.

Dear members of the forum,

The clause itself does in fact make sense. When a player is using bonus funds to garner winnings, the bonus funds themselves act as leverage against the casino.

This is all fair and square as long as all the wagering requirements are meant. Stopping short however represents an enormous disadvantage to the Casino.

The Casino establishes the wagering requirements to ensure a fair churn of the free money is has provided the player to use 'against' the Casino's float.

If players could withdrawl early - a capped version of the martingale would result in disastrous results for the Casino, the risk is even more severe when it is a global promotion and not a private VIP bonus.

However - the Casino must be responsible in the sense that it clearly warns the players if by withdrawing bonus money, their bonus and winnings will be forfeited.

The approach we have taken in our Casino is based around the following example :

Automated Bonus

Players deposits 200 Euro (first ever deposit)

Player recieves 200 Euro bonus money to play as well.

Player now has a casino balance of 400 (200 real, 200 bonus)

Player wagers, but real money is wagered first.

If Player wins for example 20 Euro on the first hand, his balance is now 220 real, 200 bonus

Player can therefore withdraw the 20 Euro, because it was won using the real money first

If the Player now wants, he may withdraw 220 - but he/she will have to forfeit the 200 bonus, because that has not been wagered as per the wagering requirements.

If the player now loses the 200 real money, the Player is now automatically playing from the bonus money. Notice how fair this is - the bonus only comes into play once the real money has been used up (assuming it is).

Once Playing from the bonus money if 20 Euro is won, the blance of the Bonus Money is 220 Euro (It is not yet real money because the bonus needs to be played through).

Therefore the won amount cannot be withdrawn until the bonus has been wagered as per the stipulated number of times.


In the case of a Manual Bonus however :

If the Player has 200 Euro Bonus and the player wins 20 Euro.

The won amount will be real money. This is because the the manual bonus amount does not increase, anything over becomes real.

Therefore the Player's balance would now be be 200 Bonus, 20 real. This is withdrawable.


I would welcome any feedback from this forum with regards to the above.

Naturally, all form of promotions will almost always raise eyebrows amongst player communities.

Ultimately, as long as the actual conditions and mechanics of the promotion are clearly conveyed - disputes will automatically be kept at a minimum.

This will provide the Casino more time and human resources to resolve real promotional issues, as long as fair play remains paramount to them.
 
What we are talking about is the fact that a casino wants to have their cake and eat it too....

1. A 110x WR on ANY bonus is absolutely ludicrous, and is behavior that screams "rogue". WR's, especially on initial deposit bonuses, should be no more than 40x, and even that is stretching it. 20x-30x is more reasonable.

2. If a player makes a simple mistake (as stated earlier, if they got excited and just felt like cashing out), the casino could then use this term against the player and essentially say "you screwed up, so screw you".

It is not fair, on the player's side, to have made an oversight and get the most severe of penalties applied to their balance.

OTOH, if the player deliberately made the W/D request and knew that they had not met the WR, then revoke the bonus, return the deposit and kindly ask them to find another place to play.

On the casino's side, if they were a stand-up operation, they would simply return the w/d to the player's balance and kindly inform them that the WR hasn't yet been met and to have the player continue until they either bust or meet the WR. It is completely and totally unnecessary to have a media nightmare on your hands simply because the casino doesn't like the way the player played or the fact that they got excited and made a premature cashout.

My (additional) thoughts.
 
I'm having trouble believing that this is actually a rule at a casino. Why would you take all winnings? Obviously, it was a mistake by the player, so just inform the player that they can't cash out yet and that's that. Or just don't let it work then have the player go to live chat for more info. Taking all the money is like an April Fool's joke. UNACCEPTABLE by all means...
 
WR also restricts games played

Agree that Bonuses are a joke, and the terms are not clear. But what I also find terrible, is that if you don't realise and accept a bonus, in many cases, the WR is dependent and restricted by which games are played. I had a tough time with the 888 crowd, where BlackJack AND Roulette are not considered at all. So NO money could be cashed out until other games were played to make up the 40xBonus on the WR.

If the Terms are clear on the Bonus and the Games that are played, and the player is warned then not good, but fairly fair I would say. What is a problem when the terms are not clear and the restictions on how to make up the WR or how far you have got is not available, then this is unacceptable.

As many other members have said, best cause of action is don't accept the bonuses. The old saying, if a deal sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.......
 
i agree with this term.... i mean... all winnings removed if withdrawal before WR met cause it will give the casino very big income :notworthy
For example... casino give 200% initial deposit. So deposit as little as 25 play with 75... Great i got enough chips to rip the casino.... No you not... :) the term
all winnings removed if withdrawal before WR met and WR is 30x deposit+bonus... its mean your total bet should be 2250 ( on slots ) and more worst could be more than 22500 if you play other game before withdrawal just for 25 initial deposit :notworthy How you will do that? Before reach 1000 all your chips maybe already gone... In other word they rip you slowly :lolup:
It better than we dont get any initial bonus and so no wagering req...
Is there any casino that not give any initial deposit bonus.... ?

All of them may not give. You have the option to choose. Soemtimes you must use a bonus code to get the bonus, in that case you don't use it. Sometimes crediting is automatic, in that case you must contact the casino before your deposit to block bonuses. In every casino it is your choice if you want to get the bonus or not, only the method of how you can achieve this varies. But in every of them you have the choice.

Personally for me it is good that I get initial deposit bonus. Sometimes I play without bonuses, but if the bonus rules are favourable, I like asking for the bonus. I think it is a better solution to be able to choose if you want to get the bonus or not instead of a general disappearance of bonuses.
 
@puggie.pete:
I have read your post and I can say that you have totally misunderstood it.
Please read the whole thread.

How KK could nominate your post and then say that the message is "spot on" is IMO just shocking. Sorry KK, I can't for my life understand it. :confused:
I can't understand why you would say that? :confused:
I just read Pete's post again to make sure I didn't mis-read it the first time - and it still reads totally spot on to me. It contains very sensible comments and I can't see anywhere where is says he agrees with or supports this "rogue rule".

KK
 
My 2 cents...

Without this term Casino's won't offer bonuses. It's a rule that is in place to protect them from bonus abuse, it's as simple as that.

Maybe they could only remove winnings attributable to the bonus but that said the mindset of a player with a bonus is different to that of one without, so you could argue the bonus changed a players betting patterns and was thus attributable to a large win.

Many many points of view but I sincerely doubt you'll get rid of this rule
 
My 2 cents...

Without this term Casino's won't offer bonuses. It's a rule that is in place to protect them from bonus abuse, it's as simple as that.

Maybe they could only remove winnings attributable to the bonus but that said the mindset of a player with a bonus is different to that of one without, so you could argue the bonus changed a players betting patterns and was thus attributable to a large win.

Many many points of view but I sincerely doubt you'll get rid of this rule

Many casinos offer bonuses without that term. I dont know of any bonus bagger who has attemted an early withdrawal where its not allowed on purpose. The rest of the post is OT drivel.
 
It's a rule that is in place to protect them from bonus abuse ....

Can you explain? I would like to know how this confiscation rule protects them from anything, assuming they don't blindly allow players to withdraw (no WR check in the WD process).

FWIW many casinos offer bonuses and do not use this confiscation clause. So clearly having this clause is not a pre-requisite for bonus offers. In fact I strongly suspect they've got nothing whatever to do with each other -- as in there is nothing necessitating the "confiscation" clause -- but I'm more than willing to learn otherwise.

Keep in mind I'm talking specifically about the confiscation clause, not the country-specific WR which is, as far as I can tell, a completely separate issue.

This is all fair and square as long as all the wagering requirements are meant. Stopping short however represents an enormous disadvantage to the Casino.

Indeed, quite true. Except that what casino in the world freely allows you to withdraw your full balance including bonus and winnings without having completed your WR? Basically none. There is always a check, somewhere along the line, otherwise no one would bother completing the WR. So how does this "stopping short" apply?

In fact in the very case where a casino has and uses the "confiscation" clause they are basically saying "we're going to check your WR and if you haven't completed it they we're going to take all your money (except deposit)".

So if they are, of course, going to check the WR then obviously there will be no "stopping short" on the bonus, which of course no casino allows.

So (a) the scenario you suggest as justification basically doesn't exist and (b) by having the "confiscation" clause the casino is saying they won't allow such a scenario to exist.

In other words, no, the clause does not in fact make sense, not even a little bit. At least not so far.
 
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"Premature Withdrawl"...I hate when that happens!:lolup:

If a casino has counter telling you exactly how much bonus is left to be wagered ( like most microgaming) it is your responsibilty

If a casino doesn't have a counter it is their responsibilty to track it and no way they can "steal" the money from the player. If a player wants to withdraw early the casino should reject it, tell them they have not met the playthrough and have the player continue to play
 
Indeed, quite true. Except that what casino in the world freely allows you to withdraw your full balance including bonus and winnings without having completed your WR? Basically none. There is always a check, somewhere along the line, otherwise no one would bother completing the WR. So how does this "stopping short" apply?

In fact in the very case where a casino has and uses the "confiscation" clause they are basically saying "we're going to check your WR and if you haven't completed it they we're going to take all your money (except deposit)".

So if they are, of course, going to check the WR then obviously there will be no "stopping short" on the bonus, which of course no casino allows.

So (a) the scenario you suggest as justification basically doesn't exist and (b) by having the "confiscation" clause the casino is saying they won't allow such a scenario to exist.

In other words, no, the clause does not in fact make sense, not even a little bit. At least not so far.

Agreed - what I meant, and my apologies for not being clear in my above statement, is that :

A) Obviously nobody should be allowed to partially fulfill WR and withdraw.
B) If somebody does do that, he needs to be warned that he/she is forfeiting the bonus.

Scenario B does happen, for example if the Player wants to participate in another bonus - He/She can't be participating in two Bonus programs. Therefore a Player should have the option of forfeiting a bonus, purely to undertake another one.

What do you think?
 
dont like your chances of getting anything back i had a similar issue with a casino who was actualy channging there terms and conditions pages everytime i met the play through which was 80x they boost it to 160 then 300 then 400 in the end i had to wager $6400 in bets
i gave up on all casinos after that because there all the same
 
I got that private message (mass mailing) from Casinomeister.
And i voted "Unacceptable for an "Accredited Casino",
after reading couple pages...

Because there is no point for that, Casino can return the money back to the account or block access to withdraw, before wagering requirement are met.

I understand some "views" here. But if Casino want to keep such a term,
they need to set accurate wagering requirement-meter (or "info").
Example %-based or amount based. "You have met 74% of your wagering requirements", or "WR, left: 2184 Euro", or just % or amounts.
RTG have quite good system (when they/casinos use that).
And if i remember right, Grand Virtual have this "block", before wagering requirements are met.

My 2 cents
 
Here's a thought.

I stand before you with my neck on the block on the assumption that your sharpened axes will soon cut my head off. Please bear in mind that I am not defending the Casino in question, but what I am suggesting is that there are facts that may balance the argument a little, from which you can make up your own mind. And what better in an argument that a little fair handedness?

Is the term unfair? Possibly. So why put it in? Blame over zealous lawyers and legislation ladies and gentlemen. With a promotion like this it is fairly easy for a casino to have well over 7 figures lying around doing nothing. So why would they want to confiscate it? Wouldn't we all like to be in that position?

In Europe certainly the tax laws are very clear. A casino must pay tax on the retained balance. So on a million their tax bill is £175,000. Ouch. And they get to pay it again and again as long as it sits there in accounts.

They are not allowed to put it back on cards without authorisation, they can not force you to play it, they can't play it for you. So there it sits out with the promotion timeframe which means they can't afford to run the promotion and they get killed time after time as the clock ticks by.

The only way they can force it out is through the scary term confiscation, hoping you have read the terms and understand, as you have accepted them before playing have you not? Please tell me you read the terms, or if you haven't how can you complain afterwards? And if people aren't playing or removing funds then make the terms scarier as clearly people are not reading the terms, which is not good for the casino, but hardly their fault.

But the terms are hidden and buried away? Are these the same terms right before you in clear type that you have chosen to ignore? Surely not? They aren't hidden away, and on condition you can read the type size without blowing up the whole screen (you can), then a larger type would not make legibility any better. If they can be read they should be read. No form of marketing can physically take your head and shove them across the screen while running retina scans to make sure you have done what is being asked of you.

This is a legal arrangement folks. The casino offers something, for which it will live up to, always, as this is what their terms are for and they must adhere to them, and you accept the terms before you play, to keep your half of the legal agreement. If you do not accept your responsibility then you have broken the agreement, a legal agreement you have made and not held up your half of the agreement. If you do not agree, then do not take the offer being made to you.

What massive type would do is annoy you with 87 pages of 100 point type, clog email filters, break the email size allowance so every filter stopped the promotion getting through and make you worry unnecassarily due to the scale of the 'warning'. It isn't a warning, it's the law stating what has to be said, the tax ensuring that money can't sit there doing nothing and lawyers inventing more and more things they have to say and can't fit within the space.

Now, let's assume the following. You buy an insurance policy because you want to protect the things you love, bet you check most of the detail so you know what you're insuring? Hey, the small print gets read after all!

And if you're unlucky enough to have an accident at work, the first thing many do is scan every single piece of paper / sign the company has to make absolutely sure they were not giving a warning about something so they can get compensation? Legal's are great aren't they? When they count for you.

The point is, consumer action, or more precisely legal action that is successful (and we all know about American cases that win against common sense, but it WASN'T WRITTEN / WARNED AGAINST) generates regulation, which then has to be followed or companies take a bath, a bad bath.

I'm just saying you can't use the small print for advantage when it suits and then moan when it doesn't. Both sides of this argument have great merit, but there are two sides and they're both right, depending on which side you work for or play against. Hence the definition of an argument, when both sides are right. How can both sides be right?

They can't, which means both sides have to reach an agreement. Were you not offered an agreement? Did you not read your, yes your, agreement you were entering into? Oops. An agreement is arranged to prevent a disagreement, if an agreement is ignored, a disagreement occurs. Which means it has to be settled. How? By reading the terms!!!!! Which I hope isn't the first time they've been read? A court would have a very simple truth. It was there, in front of you, you chose to ignore it, what's your complaint again?

So what can we do against it? You're doing it guys, and you're doing it well. It's called consumer power. Push against it in enough numbers and you can change things. You can change offers, you can change the law in some cases, but it has to be constructive and it can't be based on the entire premis that, 'er, we didn't read stuff'.

Is it ethical confiscating deposits? I don't think it is, but casinos have little choice sometimes due to the law. And the laws sole purpose is to protect consumers who force legislation to change in order to do so.

Look at what you are being offered, weigh it up and think about the terms, accept and take your chance, or vote with your feet. If you do either you'll make great progress.

Don't fall in the middle and grab something you don't understand and then complain afterwards. Bonus money offers work, why? Because the consumer wants it more often than not. A casino never made money offering something there was no consumer desire for.

Personally I don't agree with casinos doing this, but it's hard for them to do some offers any other way even if they wanted to. Neither do I agree with a player who signs on for something without checking it first. Am I sitting on a fence? Absolutely, but from the fence you can see both sides and it's a pretty balanced view.

Stay lucky guys, I notice there are a lot of offers kicking about at the moment for 2 for 1 reading glasses, now that's a promotion we could all benefit from!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, yeah, I know you disagree!
 
I got that private message (mass mailing) from Casinomeister.
And i voted "Unacceptable for an "Accredited Casino",
after reading couple pages...

Because there is no point for that, Casino can return the money back to the account or block access to withdraw, before wagering requirement are met.

I understand some "views" here. But if Casino want to keep such a term,
they need to set accurate wagering requirement-meter (or "info").
Example %-based or amount based. "You have met 74% of your wagering requirements", or "WR, left: 2184 Euro", or just % or amounts.
RTG have quite good system (when they/casinos use that).
And if i remember right, Grand Virtual have this "block", before wagering requirements are met.

My 2 cents


This is also a two sided story. RTG has the meter, but on the other hand they generally has worse bonus conditions and table game features than many other casinos. So the meter itself won't guarantee more money for you!
 
As many other members have said, best cause of action is don't accept the bonuses. The old saying, if a deal sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.......

Definately not. There are players out there who can benefit well from taking bonuses. So what you suggest is only good for one group, and I am not sure if it is even a majority. I have noted several times that in numerous casinos they don't restrict you on when you withdraw your deposit + winnings. Like at Expect Casino. In that case there is no reason not taking the bonus. You can play any games at Expect with their bonuses, and cash out anything except for the bonus any time. I cannot see why denying the bonus would be a good soultion in this case? Obviously such a bonus raises your chances indeed. So I think not taking this kind of bonus is a worse choice than taking it. ;)

Aren't you from the USA anyway? I have a suspicion such complaints are coming from US players, and it is understandable in a way, because US friendly casinos usually have worse bonuse terms than not US friendly ones. Possibly because they have kind of 'monopoly'.
 
If it's stated in the T&C's prior to the agreement its not really contestable.

Then there is the issue of whether its based off of deposit matching and minimums set for withdrawals.

I think there are too many factors to really nut-case.

But if its not understood initially, or read by the affiliate and agreed to, then it boils down to; was the vendor trying to slide one by? Or was the Affiliate lazy (as we all are when it comes to T's and C's) and he/she got stung.

Too little molded info to really take a side.

More details please????
 
"In a word, it sucks, but them's the breaks." - What does this mean?

Basically it means "Sure, it's a crappy Term, but too bad. The casino can use whatever Terms they like."

Needless to say it's not the best worded poll option we've ever seen. My bad.

... a Player should have the option of forfeiting a bonus, purely to undertake another one.

What do you think?

Certainly but as I read it that "confiscation" clause doesn't even begin to address that situation. And since it's covering a lot of other, unrelated ground it's not an appropriate term for this purpose. IMHO.
 
Players who withdraw before meeting the requirement will have the bonus and all winnings removed.

I would understand if I wouldn't be able to withdraw before meeting the requirement but having the bonus and all winnings removed by initiating such sucks! Why can't a simple warning "Sorry, you have to satisfy the requirements first before you can withdraw" isn't applicable? :mad:
 
In Europe certainly the tax laws are very clear. A casino must pay tax on the retained balance. So on a million their tax bill is £175,000. Ouch. And they get to pay it again and again as long as it sits there in accounts.
Huh? First, Europe is not one country with one set of laws. Casinos are taxed on their profits like any other business and there are also special taxes on gambling, but I challenge you to find a tax on player balances.

This is a legal arrangement folks. The casino offers something, for which it will live up to, always, as this is what their terms are for and they must adhere to them, and you accept the terms before you play, to keep your half of the legal agreement. If you do not accept your responsibility then you have broken the agreement, a legal agreement you have made and not held up your half of the agreement. If you do not agree, then do not take the offer being made to you.
In the EU there is a directive against unfair contractual terms, and such terms are not enforceable on consumers.
 
Huh? First, Europe is not one country with one set of laws. Casinos are taxed on their profits like any other business and there are also special taxes on gambling, but I challenge you to find a tax on player balances.


In the EU there is a directive against unfair contractual terms, and such terms are not enforceable on consumers.

This is the main point. Players are CONSUMERS, and in law are NOT expected to have a team of lawyers at their disposal to go through contractual terms and explain them. Because of this, we have the "unfair CONSUMER contract laws". Businesses have LESS protection because they are EXPECTED to be dealing on equal terms with one another. CONSUMERS on the other hand, are always at a disadvantage because the business DOES have that team of lawyers, who will be able to tell them how to "slip one by" and get away with it. Reading all the terms of an insurance contract has NOT helped consumers anyway, since often claims are denied on technicalities that were DELIBERATELY designed to "slip one by" all but the very brightest 1% or so of consumers. The 5 year "get all your money back" deals on expensive insurance, double glazing, big electrical items, etc offers were a prime example. The claims procedure was DELIBERATELY designed to trip up consumers because the process was made as complicated as possible, and the brief was to only get a certain percentage of consumers making a successful claim. Companies that cocked up and had nearly ALL their consumers making a successful claim nearly went bust (Hoover flights fiasco). The big fuss over the Intercasino flights promotion was ALSO down to the fact that it was expected that MOST players would NOT take up the highly restrictive and "loop infested" free flights once they saw the rules they had to comply with. Intercasino was dragged into disrepute because of nothing more than the players ACTUALLY WANTING THEIR FLIGHTS FOR THE HELL OF IT, even though they didn't particularly like the destinations and dates available. The company running the offer for Intercasino simply could not afford this, so they tried to wriggle their way out of the deal, and fed Intercasino to the lions in the process.

In this case, withdrawing before meeting WR is a breach of contract, and under the law ONLY the costs of remedying the breach may be claimed by the company, which would NOT support the confiscation of an arbitrary sum of money that the player happened to win. The banks are in a great deal of trouble for trying to "slip one by" the regulators, and even though they eventually won in the high court, it has prompted the regulator to change the rules to ensure the victory will be short. The banks were confiscating arbitrary "fines", rather than true costs of remedy, from customers' accounts. The banks argument was simply "it's in the terms" (sound familiar?;)).

This casino's case is "others are doing it, so it is right". Let's flip the argument. Every now & then, an "advantage method" crops up that is FULLY WITHIN the terms and conditions of the casino, usually something they didn't think of, or a bug in the software (such as the MGS "Chief's Fortune" bug of 2006). This gets shared on the Internet, and soon "everybody's doing it". Well, by the casino's own argument this is perfectly OK, after all, EVERYBODY ELSE is doing it, and there is NOTHING in the terms that say it's not allowed.

What do the casinos concerned do? Well, they DON'T normally accept it as fair, they CRY FOUL, stall payments, try to find ways of not paying such as the notorious "F U Clause". THEY don't see such situations as fair, so WHY should they expect PLAYERS to think it fair for a CASINO to exploit what is in effect the same thing, MISTAKES, for profit.

From the poll, it seems that the OVERWHELMING view from players is that this is NOT acceptable, although from a legal point of view, there is an argument for charging the player fees for deliberately trying to "slip one by", such as repeatedly withdrawing in the hope that eventually finance will mess up and release it even though WR have not been met.

A term that might suit this would be one that charged players for REPEATING the mistake on that withdrawal, and this would be a charge for having to audit it again, and return it to the account, send a warning email, etc.. This would deter deliberate misuse, but would NOT penalise a mere mistake.
 
As an average player, I will admit that I don't read every sentence and word of T&C's. With Accredited casinos, I expect not to suddenly be hit with something that one would not expect an Accredited casino to do to its players. I trust them not to have such a term in the rules.
If there is a problem with cashing out prematurely, then the casino should have checks in place to assure this does not happen.
I like the wagering page, I find it very helpful. It should be active and working properly in all casinos. So a player never has a doubt.
If a withdrawal is attempted before WR is met, the system should prevent this from happening, with notification of how much WR is needed before cashing out.

Many times, casinos that don't have the WR page when taking a bonus, leaves the player in the dark and dependant on CS telling them constantly how much more is needed. This is so dark ages and is not acceptable. As sometimes a CS person may tell you the incorrect amount needed, for reasons unknown, thus frustrating the player to blowing off their balance as the WR begins to feel unacheivable.

So my opinion is an Accredited casino should not have a term as this, as it is a term that would be more associated with a non-Accredited/rogue casino, placed as a last ditch trap for the unread, unexperienced, over excited player.

To maintain a loyal player base, players should never be terminated from their winnings for a simple error on their part.
 
This is also a two sided story. RTG has the meter, but on the other hand they generally has worse bonus conditions and table game features than many other casinos. So the meter itself won't guarantee more money for you!

Yes i know. But this was an example! I meant all Casinos, from all platforms.

I have not read all pages, but i remember that some Playtech casinos have, this term. So basically i wish clear information table to cashier page, where you can follow that how much you have wagered and if you have bonus attached, then how much you have wagered plus how much you need to wager, until bonus requirements have met.

And very old fact is that some casinos are able to set block or info, when you play restricted games, but they don't use it. I like to see accurate and informative table on cashier, about wagering info, etc.
And maybe someday, some casino may set info that this game is restricted, because you play with Blahblah-bonus or this game will increase your wagering requirements... if stated on bonus terms.

Casinos want to make profit, of course, but if they also want to "care" :rolleyes:... about customers, they can protect their players to avoid mistakes. I think, there is few, and same time they protect their reputation, what is good to their business.
 
terms withdraw winnings

I know that for years all RTG and Microgamming software casinos had the same clause in their terms.
It did not matter who the casino was if they were RTG,Microgamming or Playtech based software casino they had this clause in the terms.
I find it surprising that this is just now coming up. Now the casinos may have changed their terms as I have not read any of them lately but this is not new
 
Yes i know. But this was an example! I meant all Casinos, from all platforms.

I have not read all pages, but i remember that some Playtech casinos have, this term. So basically i wish clear information table to cashier page, where you can follow that how much you have wagered and if you have bonus attached, then how much you have wagered plus how much you need to wager, until bonus requirements have met.

And very old fact is that some casinos are able to set block or info, when you play restricted games, but they don't use it. I like to see accurate and informative table on cashier, about wagering info, etc.
And maybe someday, some casino may set info that this game is restricted, because you play with Blahblah-bonus or this game will increase your wagering requirements... if stated on bonus terms.

Casinos want to make profit, of course, but if they also want to "care" :rolleyes:... about customers, they can protect their players to avoid mistakes. I think, there is few, and same time they protect their reputation, what is good to their business.

At Playtech you can follow everything by the points system and also if you withdraw before you complete the reuqirements, the cashier warns you about it and ask you to wager more. At least this is the case in the casinos I play at, like William Hill Casino Club or Prestige Casino, and many others. Maybe there are ones that lack this feature, I can imagine this about Sierra Star casino or the Sunny Group casinos, but I am not sure, I haven't played there yet. But where I play the cashier reports if you withdraw before the WR is completed. Moreover at Sega Casino that is also playtech, you have a meter there, and not just a simple meter, but a detailed meter, showing you the history on every game you played, and showing you the WR status for every bonus. There you can every track multiple bonuses as well. So for example you can cash out the winnings from your first bonus, and continue wager for the second one that is still not completed. Anyway if you go to the live chat, they always tell you how much you need to wager, they tell instatnly, or send you a letter in a few hours.

By the way, at RTG the meter is not present all the time. It happened to me that I deposited, and the meter only showed my balance, but nothing else, and the live chat told me you need to ask them about the exact staus. So this thing differs from casino by casino as well at RTG, too.

At my favourite Playtechs you can only track your WR status by the help of your points, that's why I always ask my status from the support. Sometimes I ask 3 times a day. I don't mind. They choose this option. They never complained about it, so I also don't mind. If they tell me, it is okay for me this way. In the beginning I haven't played these casinos because of this, because of the lack of the meter, but later I realized their bonus terms are much better, and you can play live roulette with the bonus, and the live roulette limits starts very low. So slowly I migrated back to these Playtechs. This proves I think that having a meter or not is not the main question. You can ask the support everywhere, so actually you can get the info if you want and you are patient. For me it is a smaller issue than for example that fact that at many Microgaming casino you don't get the deposit bonus instantly but need to wait, sometimes hours. And they usually don't have lower limit on roulette than $1, or they don't have turbo spin on the no bet required to spin wheel. That disturbs me more than the lack of the meter.

I know that for years all RTG and Microgamming software casinos had the same clause in their terms.
It did not matter who the casino was if they were RTG,Microgamming or Playtech based software casino they had this clause in the terms.
I find it surprising that this is just now coming up. Now the casinos may have changed their terms as I have not read any of them lately but this is not new

Agree.
 
The Bottom Line

I've read this clause in the T&C of some casinos. Personally, I would never attempt a withdrawal on a play-through bonus without confirming it beforehand with a live person. Having said that, the policy is BS. An above-board casino should have fair play, and customer service, as cornerstones of their business. Deny the withdrawal, yes. But confiscate the winnings? That's just shady, and should not be allowed by accredited casinos.:mad:
 
just wrong

The casino is just wrong...I am from canada and no matter what their reasons are..its just wrong. I personally don't take bonus money on my deposits. If I win on my 25 dollar deposit I have never had a problem (except long wait times at some casino's to get it deposited back into instadebit)
 
But.... isn't this a rather common FU in most casino bonus T&C's? I've always thought it extremely unfair. It was even worse back when casinos had no way for a player to track their play (other than pen & paper). (FWIW, phoning casino reps for your accurate playthrough amount is as reliable as asking my cat.)

The playthrough section in RTG casinos is wildly unreliable, in my experience it's usually hundreds of dollars behind in what I've wagered. Sometimes it catches up after closing and logging back on.

MG casinos little bonus thingy is usually rather accurate, but then there's this horrible bug (been there for YEARS) where a player zeros out a bonus, then suddenly a withdrawal is denied because the previous bonus zeroing out does NOT show up. Happened to me a few times, usually took several days and several emails (did not, did too!, did not, did too!, did not, did too zero out the bonus) to get straight.

My point being... What does it hurt a casino (who has no reliable method of tracking playthrough anyway) to simply email the player, and put the withdrawal back in the players account to tackle the remaining WR?

Sorry... been out of town a week and trying to catch up, merely skimmed the thread so pardon if I'm going over old ground...
 
I voted with the majority - there are times in the past when I have withdrawan before meeting the WR due to misunderstanding the terms. Sometimes it isn't exactly clear how much needs to be wagered (with different game weightings on different bonuses etc). I would expect the whole withdrawal to be reversed back into the casino account and an email telling me why if I had withdrawn too early.
 
The End Result

Thanks everyone for your responses. :thumbsup: We've had a fantastic turnout for the poll - nearly 500 respondents at the moment - and it's pretty clear: a term like this is not acceptable for an Accredited Casino at Casinomeister.

This is the issue that sparked this poll and discussion - in May, we received a PAB from a player who had tried to cash out before he met the wagering requirements at Purple Lounge:

I played for the first time in Purple-Lounge casino at May 2010 and won around 3000 GBP. I played 25 a spin at a game name Loaded a 20 line slots.

The casino had a built in feature to show bonus balance and cash balance at any time. I played until bonus balance reached zero and cashed out.

The casino return only the deposit back to me saying although technically I was able to withdraw the casino had a special term for extra wagering to Greece and that they are confiscating my whole winnings at that case.

I told them I do accept the terms and that is the first time I play at their casino and the software feature was showing bonus balance zeroed allowing me to cashout, kindly return the credit for me to conitnue playing and give you the extra play but they insist on total winnings confisctaion.

Purple Lounge's terms for the bonus:

4. Players claiming a bonus using a deposit via either Moneybookers or Neteller must wager at least 50 times the bonus amount. Residents of Greece and Canada must wager 110 times the bonus amount regardless of the payment method used. It is the sole responsibility of the player to ensure he or she has met the wagering requirements before cashing out. Players who withdraw before meeting the requirement will have the bonus and all winnings removed.

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Now it can be argued whether or not the player tried to be slick and made his attempt to cash out before he had knowingly met the wagering requirements. Or perhaps he miscalculated and cashed in too early - or he put his trust solely on the software that showed he was able to cash out (the software not identifying him being a Greek player). But in my opinion, we aren't here to guess what was going on in the player's head. He made a mistake. But even so, shouldn't the casino be obliged to return the funds to his account and instruct the player what more he has to do in order to successfully cash out? I would think so - at least that would be expected of casinos being listed here.

I do understand that there are costs involved with having cashiers audit players' accounts to ensure that all terms have been met. But even so, total confiscation for a first time offense is draconian and player unfriendly.

The responses we received from Purple Lounge indicated to us that they were not interested in debating the issue. So be it. In my opinion - and in the opinion of most of our members, this term is unfair and breaches the standards of accredited casinos. Thus - they've been removed.

I'm hoping that all operators, regardless whether or not they have properties listed here, take a look at this situation and understand that enforcing a term such as this is unacceptable.
 

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