Casino Complaint Dragonara Casino removed winnings!

gamer

Experienced Member
webmeister
PABnononaccred
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Location
FInland
Hi,

First of all I would like to introduce a little bit myself (with bad english skills..).
I'm working as an casinoaffiliate here in Finland and I'm searching for new casinos all the time. Last month I recognized Dragonara Casino and yesterday I thought to register and test their site, because their affiliate program will be ready soon.

I read all their T&C about bonuses and general terms before registeration. After registeration I read more before decide to made deposit. While I played 50 € deposit plus 50 € bonus, I checked maximum bet size because I had very good balance atm. No problem, max 5 € bet is allowed always and only Canada+Greece is forbidden countries..

1-2 hours later I met all wagering requirements and sent documents and made withdrawal 2 300 €. Few hours on this I sent new message to support, that how long it takes to check my documents and answer was this

"Dear Mr. --------------,

Thank you for contacting us.

We apologize in the delay in responding to you however we had to check a few things with your account first.

We have noticed that you somehow managed to trigger our welcome bonus offer. Due to internal marketing reasons we had removed Finland from all bonus offers as of 08:00 CET this morning the 7th Jan 2014. For some reason you were still able to trigger this bonus at 10:32 which should not have been possible. This is a clear technical issue and has been forwarded to our technical team to find out why this could have happened.

Please be advised, that for this reason we have had to remove your welcome bonus and any winnings generated from it. We have left your original € 50 deposit on your Casino account for you. Should you wish to withdraw this, please request a withdrawal of the funds and we will process this as soon as possible.

Your documents have been uploaded to your account.

We apologize for the inconvenience caused by this issue.

Please let us know a should you have any questions related to this or any other matter.

Kind regards

Dragonara Online Casino

[Bonus & Promotions Team]"


I sent few answers for them as they asked "Please let us know a should you have any questions related to this or any other matter."
I kept my 50 € in my player account. Today I sent few more messages and now half hour ago they sent my 50 € back to Skrill and closed my player account. No any answers on my emails!

Spreed the word!
 

bigjohn

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Northeast Coastal USA
Well, that sounds like a great way to start up an online casino. Not.

Once you take a bonus and play it through, according to all the terms you are presented with when you claimed it, I think you should be paid.

One has to wonder how many other Countries will be excluded when they present a somewhat substantial winner.
 

gamer

Experienced Member
webmeister
PABnononaccred
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Location
FInland
And if I may guess, also Finland will be back soon. Just playing me out..

Well, I sent emails to LGA etc already. Also about +50 affiliate contact has been informed on this:thumbsup:
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
And if I may guess, also Finland will be back soon.

Yes it sounds very strange that a NetEnt casino should ban players from Finland to claim bonuses.

Casinos in general tend to *love* players from Norway, Sweden and Finland.
 

CasinoBen

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Marbella
Nothing to do with Guts

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to clarify that Dragonara Casino has nothing at all to do with Guts, they simply took/borrowed/copied the design, of course without our consent. There is not much we can do about it unfortunately.

Again, Dragonara is nothing at all to do with Guts Gaming, Guts is the only site we own.

Sorry to hear about your experience Gamer.

Cheers,

Ben
 

onkel

New Member
PABnonaccred
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Location
Larnaca, Cyprus, Cyprus
Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to clarify that Dragonara Casino has nothing at all to do with Guts, they simply took/borrowed/copied the design, of course without our consent. There is not much we can do about it unfortunately.

Again, Dragonara is nothing at all to do with Guts Gaming, Guts is the only site we own.

Sorry to hear about your experience Gamer.

Cheers,

Ben

Well I guess that pretty much is in line with what they did to this player. Clearly run by unprofessional people.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
If its a technical error as the casino claims tough luck to the casino. Furthermore, the Ts and Cs does not ban Finnish players from being granted bonuses if what the OP says is true.

They claim they rescinded the bonus offer to Finnish players 2.5 hours prior to your claiming it. This is so coincidental. If they techies goofed up they pay the price not you.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to clarify that Dragonara Casino has nothing at all to do with Guts, they simply took/borrowed/copied the design, of course without our consent. There is not much we can do about it unfortunately.

Again, Dragonara is nothing at all to do with Guts Gaming, Guts is the only site we own.

Sorry to hear about your experience Gamer.

Cheers,

Ben

If its a technical error as the casino claims tough luck to the casino. Furthermore, the Ts and Cs does not ban Finnish players from being granted bonuses if what the OP says is true.

They claim they rescinded the bonus offer to Finnish players 2.5 hours prior to your claiming it. This is so coincidental. If they techies goofed up they pay the price not you.

So first a content thief, then a very convenient technical issue used to void winnings.

The only "technical issue" I can see is that they had not actually IMPLEMENTED the bonus ban in their back end, so they can't put the blame on this.

I suspect that an internal meeting reached a decision on the morning of the 7th January, but it took more than 3 hours for the minutes to be published, forwarded to the relevant management, and the technical team instructed to make the necessary alterations to the back end systems and the terms and conditions.

I am sure they would not have made a fuss were the winnings modest, or the player had lost.

If GUTS were to lodge a complaint with Bryan, the casino could end up in the pit for "content theft" from an accredited casino no less, even without the need to investigate this player complaint (which may well end up with them refusing to discuss the issue).

Jackpots Heaven were quickly put in the pit for content theft, even though no player had come forward with a complaint via PAB. They had ripped off a bunch of games from leading software suppliers.

NetEnt need to start vetting their licensees, there have been a number of complaints regarding rogue behaviour from some NetEnt operators, and this ends up damaging the reputations of the other casinos using the software.

A simple test in a couple of weeks will determine whether there is any truth in their claim, or whether they have simply made this up in order to wriggle out of paying. I would expect such a critical technical error to have received an IMMEDIATE patch, with the website quickly updated to reflect the change.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
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MM
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Bexhill on sea, England
NetEnt need to start vetting their licensees, there have been a number of complaints regarding rogue behaviour from some NetEnt operators, and this ends up damaging the reputations of the other casinos using the software.
Spot on!
NetEnt only need to take a good look at Playtech, RTG and Rival to see how just a few rotten apples can ruin the whole barrel. :(

KK
 

Wild Reels

Meister Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
just tried to read their terms and it loads up a blank page, scarily it highlights their cms admin page Link Removed (invalid URL) :oops:

any decent casino would have held their hands up if it was a valid "change to the terms" and honoured the winnings.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The terms have now been updated, with a note saying they were changed at 8:00 CET on the 7th January.

So, they updated their policies internally, but until this is PUBLISHED, it has no standing. It looks like they only recently updated the website, and issued a false change date to back up their side of the story. They had obviously failed to update the back end so that it didn't trigger the bonus for disallowed countries.

Unless the OP provided false registration details in order to fool the systems into triggering the bonus, the casino should suffer the consequences of getting their initial marketing wrong. Instead, they are making a veiled accusation that the player did something fraudulent in order to trigger the bonus.

We have noticed that you somehow managed to trigger our welcome bonus offer.

What, by making a deposit:rolleyes:

If the terms only excluded Greece and Canada at the time, how would the player be expected to know that there had even been a technical glitch?

Even worse, this is no clip joint, but the online arm of a "prestigious land casino in Malta".

However, this is not the FIRST time the online arm of a Maltese land casino has screwed over one of it's customers, there was one earlier that went bust, but the online portal was still taking deposits from players, with the money then being non recoverable because the company had folded.

Clearly, this was not an isolated case, it seems the online arms of Maltese land casinos in general need to be approached with caution, or maybe avoided altogether. If the land casino companies suffer adverse PR as a result, it's their own fault for getting involved in a field they clearly have little idea about in terms of winning the trust of the online player community.

The site does look similar to GUTS, but probably not similar enough to be branded as intentional content theft. It looks more likely they have used a common template, adding a few variations of their own. This does look rather amateurish though, almost as bad as using a basic free hosting service.

A well designed casino portal would seek to differentiate itself from the competition, not use a template that most of them share. It's not pure NetEnt either, it's one of those Oddsmatrix sites hosting games from a number of providers, and Oddsmatrix sites in general have generated complaints, and appear to know little about how to run a decent casino and win the trust of players. A bunch of white label "super affiliates" using a bog standard template, rather than a "proper" casino.

Perhaps GUTS should seek to distance itself from the look and feel of this standard template, because no doubt other white label Oddsmatrix casinos will end up looking much like GUTS, confusing some players into believing they are connected.
 

Mouche12

Kitty Lover
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PABnoaccred
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Location
Amsterdam
Guts gave its consent to Dragonara for using the same, or similar, content (according to Ben's post above), but yeah - Guts definitely does not want to be associated with this outfit - roguish behaviour! :mad:I would also PAB if I were the OP.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Spot on!
NetEnt only need to take a good look at Playtech, RTG and Rival to see how just a few rotten apples can ruin the whole barrel. :(

KK

Agreed.

I always get concerned when a provider starts handing out licences like jelly beans.

The more licensees, the less resources available to vet applicants, the more possibility that rogue operators slip through the cracks.

Of course, the most unfortunately scenario would be that it's a deliberate policy change by Netent to get "bums on seats" as it were a la RTG. I would be bitterly disappointed if Netent have lowered their standards just to increase market share.

Don't get me started on Rival. My favorite slots of all time (bar the recent shite) and I can't play them (my own choice). I reckon if they gave a group of us "old timers" and other interested members the reins of Rival for a year they would be faring a WHOLE lot better.
 

gamer

Experienced Member
webmeister
PABnononaccred
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Location
FInland
Good morning,

My very good friend helped me with this and something will be happen on next few days, maybe even today:thumbsup:
Now I know little bit more, but can't talk about it yet. I'm waiting what will be happen first. They didn't answered my emails, but my friend got very good (and ridiculous...) answers.

The "strange" way how I triggered bonus was normal bonus selection when making deposit. Just like in Guts, Casinoluck, Next Casino etc.
I played only NetEnt slots, maximum bet size 4,50 €. There is max bet rule 5,00 € and Scrooge+Devil's Delight doesn't count wagering requirements. My documents was okay and it was my very first account with real details. I know how to behave.

I've watched a lot of movies where the casino's security guards beat upon unwanted players in the basement. Maybe they thought to come to the internet by the same rules?:oops:
;)
 

CasinoBen

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Marbella
Guts gave its consent to Dragonara for using the same, or similar, content (according to Ben's post above), but yeah - Guts definitely does not want to be associated with this outfit - roguish behaviour! :mad:I would also PAB if I were the OP.

We DID NOT give consent to Dragonara to use our design, we would never to that. I don't think that we need to PAB, there is nothing to gain from that from a Guts perspective. I just want it to be very clear that Dragonara is nothing to do with Guts, we did not give consent for them to use our design or colours.

@VWM, the Guts design is not a template. We took months and months to design the site, using input from experts on design and development including my vast years of experience. We will not change the design of Guts to differentiate ourselves from some people that were too unoriginal to come up with their own concept.

Have a great day everyone!!!

Ben
 

Blathaon

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Norway
We DID NOT give consent to Dragonara to use our design, we would never to that. I don't think that we need to PAB, there is nothing to gain from that from a Guts perspective. I just want it to be very clear that Dragonara is nothing to do with Guts, we did not give consent for them to use our design or colours.

@VWM, the Guts design is not a template. We took months and months to design the site, using input from experts on design and development including my vast years of experience. We will not change the design of Guts to differentiate ourselves from some people that were too unoriginal to come up with their own concept.

Have a great day everyone!!!

Ben

I think she meant that the OP (gamer) should PAB if he doesn't get his winnings, not Guts.

Seeing as Dragonara is also using Oddsmatrix/Everymatrix, i find it odd that they would steal from you. Do you not have any leverage through Everymatrix with regards to this issue?
 

CasinoBen

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Marbella
I think he meant that the OP (gamer) should PAB if he doesn't get his winnings, not Guts.

Seeing as Dragonara is also using Oddsmatrix/Everymatrix, i find it odd that they would steal from you. Do you not have any leverage through Everymatrix with regards to this issue?

Sometimes I should wait until I have had my 2nd cup of coffee before making my first post of the day.

Sorry, saw OP and automatically thought "operator".

We found it odd too and no, it seems that EveryMatrix will not help us on this one....

The whole thing kind of bewilders me. With the industry being so competitive it seems that you need to offer something that stands out from the rest, but launching a new casino with a design similar to another casino really starts you off on the wrong foot. It is the same as what we have seen in the past with new casinos using the similar name to established casinos, why do it?

Oh well, life goes on :).

Cheers,

Ben
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
We found it odd too and no, it seems that EveryMatrix will not help us on this one....

Please Ben,get your own license now. If I'm not mistaken, you are working with the same license as the ones who steals from you? Am I wrong?
 

Blathaon

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Location
Norway
Sometimes I should wait until I have had my 2nd cup of coffee before making my first post of the day.

Sorry, saw OP and automatically thought "operator".

We found it odd too and no, it seems that EveryMatrix will not help us on this one....

The whole thing kind of bewilders me. With the industry being so competitive it seems that you need to offer something that stands out from the rest, but launching a new casino with a design similar to another casino really starts you off on the wrong foot. It is the same as what we have seen in the past with new casinos using the similar name to established casinos, why do it?

Oh well, life goes on :).

Cheers,

Ben

Well that is disappointing, i would have thought that they would at least try to prevent casinos using their platform from stealing from each other.

As to why new casinos do this, in this case i would imagine that since you are both using Everymatrix they are hoping that this will instill trust when people recognize the layout, and seeing Everymatrix mentioned might make people believe that you are part of the same casino group.

So all upside for them and only downside for you :(

Hopefully most players will realize that there is no connection other than you both using the same platform provider, it shouldn't be any different then seeing two casinos both running NetEnt.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The problem is also that Oddsmatrix (the white label provider) and Everymatrix (the platform) are named to look like they are the same corporate entity. This may be true, but it creates a pretty solid connection between GUTS and the Oddsmatrix white labels also using Everymatrix, as it looks like GUTS is "just another Everymatrix casino". Since the software is a mixture of known brands, the name "Everymatrix" can be interpreted as the name of the operator, rather than the platform, which can make it look like GUTS and Dragonara are just two of many casinos "operated by Everymatrix".

WE know the difference, but newbies and less experienced players may not, and having had a bad experience at Dragonara (or any other Everymatrix casino for that matter), may stumble upon GUTS, but run a mile because they think it's another casino that will screw them over.

Whilst using the Everymatrix platform, GUTS is NOT "an Oddsmatrix (white label) casino", they have their own license with the LGA.

These platforms that bring together the games from multiple providers are again creating a level of confusion among players. For a start, Dragonara was branded "a NetEnt casino", but it isn't, it's an Oddsmatrix casino using the Everymatrix platform that has some NetEnt games, but also games from other providers like MGS. NetEnt and MGS provide the games to Everymatrix, who then provide them to clients of the platform, this makes it harder for NetEnt and MGS to see that only reputable operators have access to their products.
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
Whilst using the Everymatrix platform, GUTS is NOT "an Oddsmatrix (white label) casino", they have their own license with the LGA.

No!

Guts have not their own license yet! Thrills is an example of a casino who uses the platform but have their own license. Guts was planning to have their own license this january but AFAIK haven't got it yet!

Ben, correct me if I'm wrong here.
 

CasinoBen

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Marbella
No!

Guts have not their own license yet! Thrills is an example of a casino who uses the platform but have their own license. Guts was planning to have their own license this january but AFAIK haven't got it yet!

Ben, correct me if I'm wrong here.

You are correct. We are going through the license process as we speak with the LGA and Alderney and we hope that by the end of the month the process will be completed. This should have been done sooner but the holiday season delayed the process. But, yes, Thrills is an example of a casino that uses the platform but has their own license.

Thanks,

Ben
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
No!

Guts have not their own license yet! Thrills is an example of a casino who uses the platform but have their own license. Guts was planning to have their own license this january but AFAIK haven't got it yet!

Ben, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Copyright © 2013 Guts Gaming Limited, The Cornerstone Complex, Level 4, 16th September Square, Mosta MST1180, Malta. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. Guts.com is operating under virtue of a Letter of Intent Number numbered LGA/CL2/497/2008 and a Class 1 license numbered LGA/CL1/497/2010 as issued by the Maltese Lotteries and Gaming Authority under the laws of Malta. Contact us at [email protected]

Dragonara is operating under the Oddsmatrix licence.

There is also something odd going on, Dragonara blocks one from keeping a copy of the terms and conditions by the usual method of cut & paste, the same block prevents the licence information from being cut and pasted here as a counter illustration to GUTS.

GUTS is NOT operating under the Oddsmatrix license, but under it's own - both a letter of intent and a Class 1 license.

With the LGA, it seems they allow casinos to operate under "letter of intent" for many months, if not years, so effectively there isn't much difference between it and a full LGA license.
 
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