Aliens.. Fact or Fiction ?...*sean luc picard voice* "Theories"

[LOOKAWAY]

Hey if I was going to pull a big hoax like this, I would definitely get in the picture to.

 

[skiny]

If I get time I'll whip up my own hoax photo just for fun. I'll try to avoid the things I look for in hoaxes and easily explained abnormalities.

 

[Osloking]

oh i love this thred I know of several videos you guys should watch!


Mystery Lights of Hessdalen - Norway (this is real!)

 

[Osloking]

Puma Punku in Tiahuanaco, At nearly 14000 years old, the ruins of Puma Punku are the oldest and most baffling on the face of the Earth.

 

[Nate]

You make very valid points Nifty...

I for one, do not believe in Crop Circles. Why on earth would Aliens leave messages in the Corn? Even if they did, surely they would understand that not everyone is up in the sky all the time...?

We have SETI (Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence) operating for years and yet to receive any communication from the depths of the universe.

I must admit that despite any argument put forward, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that foreign technology has not graced our planet as yet. We as a 'Technologically Primitive' society have been deploying probes into space and sending them to other planets... Why isn't it logical that another species could send a similar or more advanced craft to Earth to Explore?

We have officials from all around the world who share first hand accounts, Pilots, Astronauts, Governors, Generals and yet their stories are always pushed away like they do not exist.

I believe there are more hoaxes than real accounts; however, there is so much that remains unexplained. Skiny makes valid points concerning Websites dedicated to this stuff. I rarely visit them as I know that 99% of the stuff contained on those sites are fabricated. I'm not easily convinced BUT I do a lot of research on the matter and take everything into account.

The first two Videos I posted in this thread are some of the BEST stories documented to date. its sad that nobody took the time to comment on them. I believe the evidence contained in those videos are enough to make anyone ponder what the truth really is.

Nate

It's a great discussion guys. It really is, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I don't put my 2c worth in because it isn't a topic on which I consider myself "informed".

My personal view is that aliens exist. I just think that odds that the millions of planets that exist in the universe are all completely uninhabited are.....well pretty damn long. We also have a very narrow view of what constitutes "life"....just because we can't comprehend life that has no.physical form etc doesn't mean it cannot exist......which leads me to my next observation.

It seems the answers provided by most alien visitation believers to challenges from the scientific community almost always involve a large element of "well prove me wrong then"......much like when some players firmly believe someone from the casino is watching their every bet and changing the reels on a constant basis......and this is what concerns me most. I've been reading this thread and the links, and I still don't think there is any even quasi-concrete evidence to support alien visitation theories.

I think Roy argues his points very well, and skiny equally, but I still get the underlying message of "well, yeah, the proof isn't solid, but prove it doesn't happen"......which isn't the way to go if you're the one putting the theory forward. Mind you, that's just my take on it, and its nothing personal, as I see it is most CT discussions.

Anyway, I'm no expert as I said, but some questions do come into my head and they have never been able to be answered. One is why those abducted by aliens all seem to be from remote places and have few teeth, and are almost always known previously as unreliable....and almost always from low socio-economic groups? It seems odd that aliens would only want to study these people. What about important people in government or military positions, and city dwellers etc? I know if the chairman of the JCS in the US came up with an abduction story it would carry a lot more credibility, In fact, nobody reliable ever seems to be abducted. I've been told that the aliens know that nobody will believe these people, so they can carry on unimpeded, but then if they were so well informed about our social structures etc, they wouldn't need to abduct alcoholics and hillbillies,because they would already know that they represent one section of humanity.

I have others, like why things need to be shoved up abducted people's bums when you would safely assume they would have scanning capabilities far beyond our own.

A lot of it makes no sense, and just because something cannot be explained, doesn't mean it is alien.

Well that's my 2c worth that I said I wouldn't give. My mind is still open, so carry on.

 

[skiny]

You make very valid points Nifty...

I for one, do not believe in Crop Circles. Why on earth would Aliens leave messages in the Corn? Even if they did, surely they would understand that not everyone is up in the sky all the time...?

We have SETI (Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence) operating for years and yet to receive any communication from the depths of the universe.

I must admit that despite any argument put forward, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that foreign technology has not graced our planet as yet. We as a 'Technologically Primitive' society have been deploying probes into space and sending them to other planets... Why isn't it logical that another species could send a similar or more advanced craft to Earth to Explore?

We have officials from all around the world who share first hand accounts, Pilots, Astronauts, Governors, Generals and yet their stories are always pushed away like they do not exist.

I believe there are more hoaxes than real accounts; however, there is so much that remains unexplained. Skiny makes valid points concerning Websites dedicated to this stuff. I rarely visit them as I know that 99% of the stuff contained on those sites are fabricated. I'm not easily convinced BUT I do a lot of research on the matter and take everything into account.

The first two Videos I posted in this thread are some of the BEST stories documented to date. its sad that nobody took the time to comment on them. I believe the evidence contained in those videos are enough to make anyone ponder what the truth really is.

Nate

Not singling anyone out here but generally speaking, I think the thing that most people who believe in extraterrestrial visitations don't seem to grasp is the vastness of space and the limits of speed and time. I find it difficult to believe that other alien races can do what we believe to be physically impossible. I'm not talking about technology. If we took some of our current technology even back 100 years it would be beyond comprehension. If we took most of it back 300 years it would be witchcraft.

But what has advanced just as quickly as our technology is our understanding of how the universe works. Just as electricity and magnetism are two sides of a single coin, space and time are connected, velocity and mass are connected. Energy, mass and acceleration are a vicious circle. The more an object accelerates, the more mass it gains, the more mass it gains the more energy it takes to accelerate it. Even a single proton would take an infinite amount of energy to reach light speed. This is true for everything in the universe with mass.

Now, personally I'm going under the assumption that an alien race would require a planet near a sun to evolve. The closest star to us is about 4 light years away. There's 3 of them actually and two of them are part of a binary system and after that they start to range between 6 to 10 light years away and beyond. Even traveling at half the speed of light it would take about 10 years to get to the closest star, that's a one way trip at about 500 million kilometers per hour. I'm not even going to mention the amount of energy it would take to accelerate even a tiny craft to 500 million kph. I think the Mars Rover topped out at about 20,000 kph. 1/25000th of our desired speed and it carried a craft about the size of a Mini Cooper.

Now since we're talking about actual aliens visiting you have to put some sort of species on the craft which opens a whole new can of worms. How do you get a human (or alien) up to 500 million kph? Well, If you give yourself a month to achieve that speed and you're a very small human or alien you can keep the g-force down to about the same as an extreme rollercoaster ride. (Maybe around 3g) Which makes for a rather uncomfortable 30 days. Or you can give yourself a year and comfortably accelerate to half the speed of light but then you'll need a similar amount of time to decelerate and that's not counting the problem of navigation. You could sit quite comfortably in a craft at 500 million kph and if the speed and direction was constant you could even get up and walk around. The problem is that even the slightest change in direction would fling everything and everyone in the craft in the opposite direction. A car traveling at 100 kph changes lanes too fast and you spill your coffee. Imagine trying to turn even slightly at 500,000 times that speed. Even if you plotted a constant arc from point A to point B with the minimum curve the passengers in the craft with feel a constant g- force in the opposite direction of the curve for the entire duration of the trip. Inertia is a bitch.

And I didn't bother with the amount of energy it takes to accelerate earlier because of the amount of energy it takes to sustain the crew for the trip. Any species is going to require a renewable source of oxygen, carbon dioxide, helium or what ever it breathes, a food supply either stored or renewed, a navigation system, lights, heat, communication for 10 years each way and that is just to the nearest star. To get to the next batch of stars after that, double everything I just said.

This is part of why I don't believe aliens have visited earth. I've never believed that we are alone in the universe or even that we are the only intelligent species. The problem is that any other species in the universe (unless they are subatomic particles) are bound by the same Newtonian laws of physics as we are regardless of their technology.

I could probably write an entire book on why I think it's simply not possible for an intelligent alien species to get from there to here and why the odds are almost zero that they would evolve within 100 or even 1000 light years of us, much less 4 or 10 but I've just bored you with 3 or 4 paragraphs of it. Imagine reading a hundred pages.

 

[Nate]

Not singling anyone out here but generally speaking, I think the thing that most people who believe in extraterrestrial visitations don't seem to grasp is the vastness of space and the limits of speed and time. I find it difficult to believe that other alien races can do what we believe to be physically impossible. I'm not talking about technology. If we took some of our current technology even back 100 years it would be beyond comprehension. If we took most of it back 300 years it would be witchcraft.

But what has advanced just as quickly as our technology is our understanding of how the universe works. Just as electricity and magnetism are two sides of a single coin, space and time are connected, velocity and mass are connected. Energy, mass and acceleration are a vicious circle. The more an object accelerates, the more mass it gains, the more mass it gains the more energy it takes to accelerate it. Even a single proton would take an infinite amount of energy to reach light speed. This is true for everything in the universe with mass.

Now, personally I'm going under the assumption that an alien race would require a planet near a sun to evolve. The closest star to us is about 4 light years away. There's 3 of them actually and two of them are part of a binary system and after that they start to range between 6 to 10 light years away and beyond. Even traveling at half the speed of light it would take about 10 years to get to the closest star, that's a one way trip at about 500 million kilometers per hour. I'm not even going to mention the amount of energy it would take to accelerate even a tiny craft to 500 million kph. I think the Mars Rover topped out at about 20,000 kph. 1/25000th of our desired speed and it carried a craft about the size of a Mini Cooper.

Now since we're talking about actual aliens visiting you have to put some sort of species on the craft which opens a whole new can of worms. How do you get a human (or alien) up to 500 million kph? Well, If you give yourself a month to achieve that speed and you're a very small human or alien you can keep the g-force down to about the same as an extreme rollercoaster ride. (Maybe around 3g) Which makes for a rather uncomfortable 30 days. Or you can give yourself a year and comfortably accelerate to half the speed of light but then you'll need a similar amount of time to decelerate and that's not counting the problem of navigation. You could sit quite comfortably in a craft at 500 million kph and if the speed and direction was constant you could even get up and walk around. The problem is that even the slightest change in direction would fling everything and everyone in the craft in the opposite direction. A car traveling at 100 kph changes lanes too fast and you spill your coffee. Imagine trying to turn even slightly at 500,000 times that speed. Even if you plotted a constant arc from point A to point B with the minimum curve the passengers in the craft with feel a constant g- force in the opposite direction of the curve for the entire duration of the trip. Inertia is a bitch.

And I didn't bother with the amount of energy it takes to accelerate earlier because of the amount of energy it takes to sustain the crew for the trip. Any species is going to require a renewable source of oxygen, carbon dioxide, helium or what ever it breathes, a food supply either stored or renewed, a navigation system, lights, heat, communication for 10 years each way and that is just to the nearest star. To get to the next batch of stars after that, double everything I just said.

This is part of why I don't believe aliens have visited earth. I've never believed that we are alone in the universe or even that we are the only intelligent species. The problem is that any other species in the universe (unless they are subatomic particles) are bound by the same Newtonian laws of physics as we are regardless of their technology.

I could probably write an entire book on why I think it's simply not possible for an intelligent alien species to get from there to here and why the odds are almost zero that they would evolve within 100 or even 1000 light years of us, much less 4 or 10 but I've just bored you with 3 or 4 paragraphs of it. Imagine reading a hundred pages.

Lol... I see where you are going with this - I think we touched base on it earlier in the thread... hence my absence thus far.

People have strong views. Some are more willing to believe than others. I see that you take the 'seeing is believing' route and I have no issues with that. Your explanations are logical and make complete sense, however given the almost infinite size of the Universe, I'm sure you could appreciate WHY I absolutely feel that its possible for a multitude of intelligent species to exist and it may be more common than we think.

If I re-emphasize my point from earlier, we would be going in circles. I do not believe it is difficult for intelligent life to have evolved. My perception is that it exists and we have been visited - I suppose its just about when we will eventually see the truth coming out...

Are you trying to overthrow VWM btw ?

Nate

 

[Seventh777]

@ Nate

One aspect of the whole UFO and Alien scene is this, every single country out there has government related Extra Terrestrial agencies that look for U.F.O.`s etc, now, recently the amount of UFO sightings world wide has gone through the roof, but, all we see as evidence are shaky videos courtesy of a cam corder or mobile phone, now, do the maths, as soon as any country`s air space is violated the alarm bells ring, interceptor jets are scrambled and high tec surveillance gear is brought into action, including cameras so powerful they can photograph a car`s registration plate from a satellite orbiting our planet, so, are you telling me that agencies whose sole purpose is to monitor for Extra Terrestrial life forms and are privy to the most sophisticated tracking systems out there have missed every single UFO ever reported, whilst, the public in general have captured hundreds of thousands on video and cameras?.



Not once have we ever seen any input whatsoever from what must be untold cases that these agencies have investigated, how the hell did these ones slip through the net?.......





When, man can replicate crop circles with all the anomalies they produce and the time stamp in which they are created, then and only then I will believe there is a chance that they are faked, but, as is the case and believe me these have been thoroughly investigated by TPTB and left them scratching their heads - including a replicated one they created which had none of the characteristics clearly visible of it`s origin unknown counterparts, or, are we led to believe that some guys travelling world wide with instruments needed to create these circles as they have nothing better to do, whilst baffling the world`s greatest scientists are the real cause of these unexplained phenomena?.

Anyhow guys enjoy the above video containing more Chinese lanterns, Weather Balloons, Marsh Gas sightings than you will ever need .

 

[skiny]

Lol... I see where you are going with this - I think we touched base on it earlier in the thread... hence my absence thus far.

People have strong views. Some are more willing to believe than others. I see that you take the 'seeing is believing' route and I have no issues with that. Your explanations are logical and make complete sense, however given the almost infinite size of the Universe, I'm sure you could appreciate WHY I absolutely feel that its possible for a multitude of intelligent species to exist and it may be more common than we think.

If I re-emphasize my point from earlier, we would be going in circles. I do not believe it is difficult for intelligent life to have evolved. My perception is that it exists and we have been visited - I suppose its just about when we will eventually see the truth coming out...

I actually agree with you 100%. In fact It's more than possible, there's a high probability that other intelligent species have evolved elsewhere in the universe. There's not a single cosmologist on the planet that wouldn't agree with you on this fact. The problem isn't evolution elsewhere in the universe. The problem is the likelihood that two species would evolve simultaneously at a distance away that would allow contact.

Here's the problem that I see every time I have these conversations. People who believe in alien visitations are quite happy to use the "infinite size of the universe" or "infinite galaxies and infinite planets" argument to prove the extremely high likelihood of the evolution of intelligent species elsewhere in the universe. But if you're going to use the sheer size of the universe to prove this point you have to accept the consequences of having an infinite amount of space between them. (Infinity is an exaggeration, of course. The universe does have a size.) But the point is to accept that it is the vastness of space that increases the probability of more than one intelligent species evolving requires an acceptance that the same vastness is also what decreases the probability that they could ever be in contact with one another. Traveling faster than the speed of light violates every physical law we know of and I can't imagine any way for a complex living organism to maneuver at speeds even remotely close to that without dying so until those laws change I just don't believe intergalactic space travel is a real possibility.

So in my opinion, anyone who wants me to believe that an alien race has visited Earth has to first find me another inhabitable planet close enough for them to have come from. That planet does not exist in our solar system. Like I said, the nearest one is 4 light years away. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that we have been to other planets. If that was in reference to the recent Mars Rover, it took about 8 months to get to Mars. To get to the next nearest solar system would take almost 2 and a half decades at the same speed - that's one way and that's the closest one. I am willing to accept any proof that is scientifically plausible but until someone fixes the velocity/distance/time problem the odds the of aliens coming to Earth are almost zero.

Are you trying to overthrow VWM btw ?

Nate

Sorry, physics and cosmology are fun topics for me. I tend to ramble a lot when I discuss them.

 

[Nate]

@Seventh...

I wholly agree with you mate... There are too many cover ups ... The point I was getting at, was even IF we received contact do you really think that SETI would jump and publish it to the media? Uhmm, not if the US Government had anything to do with it.. ... No disrespect to your views, but i just cannot see crop circles being messages from outer space, I do however share your views with most other things.

I 100% believe that this has been the greatest cover-up in all human history, I await disclosure, just like you do my friend.

@Skiny - You make genuine and thought provoking statements. Your logic is spot on ad I agree that it is a sweeping statement when I use the 'infinite' universe as an example. My thought process is upon the lines of ... IF we could have progressed this far with technology since the 1940's (I still say our technology is primitive given my beliefs) then how far could an intelligent species like us (lets say they hypothetically exist) have progressed IF they were to have just a 1000 year head start on us?

Who says that if other beings need to travel, that they must do at the speed of light? What about wormholes and other means of travel. Although its just pie in the sky, scientists still theorise that its possible, even if we do not understand it. Why does everything need to conform to OUR perception of physics? Why does everything need to conform to OUR recipe for life or the maintenance thereof? Why is Neptunes Moon orbiting in the opposite direction? There are new discoveries being made regularly and most of them defy the rules of physics as we interpret them .... The point I'm making is that there are anomalies scattered all over the universe and everything does not conform to how we interpret it should be

Nate

 

[Seventh777]

What Nate said regarding wormholes, our own particle accelerators are possible of creating these, but, not to the extent that would be needed for space travel (apparently), also skiny there was a series on B.B.C. that I watched when it was on, I cannot remember if this was the programme that had Stephen Hawkins in, but he also speaks of these, the Horizon series is well worth watching ....

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[skiny]

@Skiny - You make genuine and thought provoking statements. Your logic is spot on ad I agree that it is a sweeping statement when I use the 'infinite' universe as an example. My thought process is upon the lines of ... IF we could have progressed this far with technology since the 1940's (I still say our technology is primitive given my beliefs) then how far could an intelligent species like us (lets say they hypothetically exist) have progressed IF they were to have just a 1000 year head start on us?

Actually, we would probably have a thousand year head start on ourselves if not for the bloody Romans. But that's a whole other story and like I said, all our advancements in technology have come from a better understanding of how the universe works and with that understanding also comes an understanding of our limits within it. There are two sets of rules, Newtonian law and quantum mechanics. Subatomic particles get one set of rules and we have to follow the other. (Whether we like it or not.)

Who says that if other beings need to travel, that they must do at the speed of light? What about wormholes and other means of travel. Although its just pie in the sky, scientists still theorise that its possible, even if we do not understand it. Why does everything need to conform to OUR perception of physics? Why does everything need to conform to OUR recipe for life or the maintenance thereof? Why is Neptunes Moon orbiting in the opposite direction? There are new discoveries being made regularly and most of them defy the rules of physics as we interpret them .... The point I'm making is that there are anomalies scattered all over the universe and everything does not conform to how we interpret it should be

Nate

What Nate said regarding wormholes, our own particle accelerators are possible of creating these, but, not to the extent that would be needed for space travel (apparently), also skiny there was a series on B.B.C. that I watched when it was on, I cannot remember if this was the programme that had Stephen Hawkins in, but he also speaks of these, the Horizon series is well worth watching ....

Actually wormholes are theoretical and have never been observed anywhere but in math equations. If anyone says that wormholes can be created in hadron colliders, they're mistaken. Black holes are different. These have been observed all over the universe and creating tiny black holes in hadron colliders are entirely possible although they would be incredibly short lived.

I know very little about wormholes other than they would take immense amounts of gravity to create. If you believe in a curved space fabric that can be bent by gravity I would imagine a wormhole would be created by the incredible amounts of gravity caused by two black holes at two different places in space. The gravitational pull would fold the fabric of space over or draw two areas of space toward one another and create a link between the two. Regardless of how they would work, the gravitational pull it would take to bend space isn't something you can create on purpose. Immense amounts of gravity requires immense amounts of mass. Personally, the whole "space fabric" idea bugs me which is why I never put much stock in the existence of wormholes between places caused by bending it in the first place.

Everything I understand about the universe tells me that you can't get from point A to point C without passing point B. So until someone can show me a scientifically plausible way around it, I just have to accept that any alien species traveling to Earth has move through conventional space the same way everything else in the universe does. (Unless you're a subatomic particle.) I don't come to these conclusions by wondering how aliens may have come to Earth but by wondering how we can get further away from it. 8 months to get to Mars just isn't going to cut it. If we sent people there for one week it would take a year and a half for them to get back.

Now back to the topic of Aliens flying around the planet in plain site half the time but no real proof that they exist. I've seen different charts and graphs over the years regarding the frequency of UFO sightings and most of them give conflicting data. From what I understand the frequency has ebbed and flowed for the most part with a general upward trend since the 1940s. The increased popularity of science fiction over supernatural fiction in the 40s and 50s explains some of it. Increased media coverage plays a part. Mainstream news stations have ran many stories of UFO sightings but there was a time when they ran stories of the Loch Ness Monster and Big Foot as well. These are mostly "camp" stories and not really taken seriously. Tabloids are quite happy to claim that aliens have arrived but they also claim that Elvis is still alive and Jesus came to some poor Portuguese woman through a piece of burnt toast. An increased acceptance by the general public of UFO sightings increases the amount of people willing to pass UFO stories on. The frequent use of the term UFO by the military to describe any unidentified flying object greatly increases the amount of UFO cases, all of which are considered to be of extraterrestrial origin by Ufologists. Advances in our own technology and our own space exploration have helped to convince people that other races could come from other planets just as easily - although flying to the moon and flying to Proxima Centauri are hardly the same thing. The internet has allowed Ufologists to share data with one another and with the rest of the planet whether that data be honest unknown objects that require investigation or just hoaxes for the purpose of gaining internet traffic. Advances in computer and video technology have allowed home users to easily create their own hoax movies and images.... The list is endless but the reality is, an increase in UFO sightings or accounts does not mean in increase in alien visitations.

 

[Seventh777]

@ Skiny, I hear what you`re saying regarding an increase of UFO sightings, but, to the best of my knowledge I have never heard of one that caused an airport to cancel flights. I live around a 20 minute drive from this place, and have watched several documentaries regarding the frequent UFO visitations there.......

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Well worth watching if you have never come across it before .