Aliens.. Fact or Fiction ?...*sean luc picard voice* "Theories"

[skiny]

"The man in the NG documentary was not the same man in the original video." This is called a "recreation." Many documentaries don't use the original participants.

"The man who came to the pub with the video called himself John Whaley not John Wabe." Two very similar names. The man gave his name at the pub and the person receiving the name misheard it or remembered it incorrectly. There is also a chance he didn't want his real name to be used. If you can't ask this person if his name was given incorrectly intentionally or if it was misheard, you can't make up an answer for the question.

"The person responsible for filming the Oliver's Castle footage has disappeared." Disappearing is quite common when people find themselves lacking privacy or being harassed. There are a great number of alien hunters and debunkers who are probably far from subtle and would go to great lengths to talk to someone who allegedly filmed an alien even if he admitted later that it was a hoax. The video refers to other people who have done the same thing. I don't think people know what they're getting into when they start a hoax like this. It can be a pretty serious disruption to their lives if the story goes "viral."

Citing the same phenomenon in two separate videos doesn't really mean much if the process of creating the first hoax can easily be done on a home computer. The original video was analyzed and it was determined "there was field discrepancies on the video suggesting at some point the video had been rendered as an animation sequence." My logical question would be if the original video of this phenomenon was obviously tampered with and fraudulent, how can another person film a second video of a phenomenon that didn't exist in the first place? There are two possible answers. The first and least likely answer would be that the aliens came back and are apparently balls of light themselves or can control balls of light, recreating the original event once again in front of more people with video cameras neatly proving the first video which they probably wouldn't want humans to see is real. OR The second video was created much the same as the first for reasons only the creators can offer. If I can't ask someone why they did something, I won't make up my own answers for it.

Here's the thing - I am not anti-alien. I would be more than happy to discover life on other planets. If aliens exist with an advanced intelligence giving them the capability to visit Earth it would be an amazing discovery. It would be definite proof that we are not alone in the incredible vastness of the universe. Our universe has a billion galaxies with a billion stars in each and many planets around each star. I would rather believe that alien life exists in our universe than believe that out of at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe our sun is the only one that spawned life and that we are the only living creatures in a virtually endless sea of space. But no matter how much I dislike the thought that our species is the only intelligent species literally in existence I refuse to accept ridiculous claims. I refuse to accept illogical assumptions.

I have watched more ancient and modern alien documentaries than I can remember. But the proof is not there. I'm tired of all this blurry hand held camera footage of balls of light in the sky being "proof" of alien existence when it can be explained in a dozen different sensible ways. I watch footage of a supposed alien craft making a 90 degree turn at mach 2 when the inertia alone would rip the insides literally out of any living creature performing such a maneuver. (And I do mean literally.) You could say that the aliens have technology that dampen the inertia inside the craft but again that's a massive leap. It's an incredible assumption that lends credence to something that is highly improbable rather than apply real logic and say there's probably a more likely answer as to what this phenomenon is.

I'm tired of ancient alien theorists proving the existence of alien visitations by making statements like "There is no way people could have done this." or "There is no way people could have known this." These are not scientific statements. This is not scientific research. Paleontologists wouldn't find a stick with a hole in it beside a 2 million year old skeleton and declare that Homo habilis played the flute. These declarations are not scientific statements. This is what these alien theorists do constantly and it really gets under my skin. It's ok to look at an ancient carving and say wow, that looks like a rocket ship. It's NOT ok to look at this carving and say this is proof the person who carved this saw an actual rocket ship. In fact it's pretty damn far from ok because when you make that leap a thousand times people start to consider this to be mounting evidence where no actual evidence ever existed in the first place. This does more harm than good because if the day real evidence does show up nobody would ever find it in the sea of stupidity and misinformation that preceded it for decades.

I watched one documentary that cited over 50 different kinds of aliens. In a universe where the odds of even one intelligent extraterrestrial species existing within a billion miles of our planet are slim to none this documentary suggests that 50 different species have been to this planet. Do I look at proof of alien existence with pessimism and negativity? Yes, I most certainly do. I don't deny the possibility because it's impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist. I have absolutely no way to prove that unicorns don't exist or even the tooth fairy for that matter but if someone says they saw one I have to be skeptical. It's only sensible to be skeptical because the odds of it being true are phenomenal.

I could go back and watch any real documentary about ancient culture and point out hundreds of things that suggest that intelligent aliens interfered with the natural evolution of this culture. I could simply state that the people of that era had no way to perform tasks or that pretty much anything unusual or unexplainable was proof of alien intervention but I won't because it's not logical and it's not science and people really need to stop doing it. If people are really interested in finding alien life, look to the stars because that's where it will exist. Not flying around in circles in some farmer's wheat field.

Eat your heart out VWM!

 

[immortality]

"The man in the NG documentary was not the same man in the original video." This is called a "recreation." Many documentaries don't use the original participants.

"The man who came to the pub with the video called himself John Whaley not John Wabe." Two very similar names. The man gave his name at the pub and the person receiving the name misheard it or remembered it incorrectly. There is also a chance he didn't want his real name to be used. If you can't ask this person if his name was given incorrectly intentionally or if it was misheard, you can't make up an answer for the question.

"The person responsible for filming the Oliver's Castle footage has disappeared." Disappearing is quite common when people find themselves lacking privacy or being harassed. There are a great number of alien hunters and debunkers who are probably far from subtle and would go to great lengths to talk to someone who allegedly filmed an alien even if he admitted later that it was a hoax. The video refers to other people who have done the same thing. I don't think people know what they're getting into when they start a hoax like this. It can be a pretty serious disruption to their lives if the story goes "viral."

Citing the same phenomenon in two separate videos doesn't really mean much if the process of creating the first hoax can easily be done on a home computer. The original video was analyzed and it was determined "there was field discrepancies on the video suggesting at some point the video had been rendered as an animation sequence." My logical question would be if the original video of this phenomenon was obviously tampered with and fraudulent, how can another person film a second video of a phenomenon that didn't exist in the first place? There are two possible answers. The first and least likely answer would be that the aliens came back and are apparently balls of light themselves or can control balls of light, recreating the original event once again in front of more people with video cameras neatly proving the first video which they probably wouldn't want humans to see is real. OR The second video was created much the same as the first for reasons only the creators can offer. If I can't ask someone why they did something, I won't make up my own answers for it.

Here's the thing - I am not anti-alien. I would be more than happy to discover life on other planets. If aliens exist with an advanced intelligence giving them the capability to visit Earth it would be an amazing discovery. It would be definite proof that we are not alone in the incredible vastness of the universe. Our universe has a billion galaxies with a billion stars in each and many planets around each star. I would rather believe that alien life exists in our universe than believe that out of at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe our sun is the only one that spawned life and that we are the only living creatures in a virtually endless sea of space. But no matter how much I dislike the thought that our species is the only intelligent species literally in existence I refuse to accept ridiculous claims. I refuse to accept illogical assumptions.

I have watched more ancient and modern alien documentaries than I can remember. But the proof is not there. I'm tired of all this blurry hand held camera footage of balls of light in the sky being "proof" of alien existence when it can be explained in a dozen different sensible ways. I watch footage of a supposed alien craft making a 90 degree turn at mach 2 when the inertia alone would rip the insides literally out of any living creature performing such a maneuver. (And I do mean literally.) You could say that the aliens have technology that dampen the inertia inside the craft but again that's a massive leap. It's an incredible assumption that lends credence to something that is highly improbable rather than apply real logic and say there's probably a more likely answer as to what this phenomenon is.

I'm tired of ancient alien theorists proving the existence of alien visitations by making statements like "There is no way people could have done this." or "There is no way people could have known this." These are not scientific statements. This is not scientific research. Paleontologists wouldn't find a stick with a hole in it beside a 2 million year old skeleton and declare that Homo habilis played the flute. These declarations are not scientific statements. This is what these alien theorists do constantly and it really gets under my skin. It's ok to look at an ancient carving and say wow, that looks like a rocket ship. It's NOT ok to look at this carving and say this is proof the person who carved this saw an actual rocket ship. In fact it's pretty damn far from ok because when you make that leap a thousand times people start to consider this to be mounting evidence where no actual evidence ever existed in the first place. This does more harm than good because if the day real evidence does show up nobody would ever find it in the sea of stupidity and misinformation that preceded it for decades.

I watched one documentary that cited over 50 different kinds of aliens. In a universe where the odds of even one intelligent extraterrestrial species existing within a billion miles of our planet are slim to none this documentary suggests that 50 different species have been to this planet. Do I look at proof of alien existence with pessimism and negativity? Yes, I most certainly do. I don't deny the possibility because it's impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist. I have absolutely no way to prove that unicorns don't exist or even the tooth fairy for that matter but if someone says they saw one I have to be skeptical. It's only sensible to be skeptical because the odds of it being true are phenomenal.

I could go back and watch any real documentary about ancient culture and point out hundreds of things that suggest that intelligent aliens interfered with the natural evolution of this culture. I could simply state that the people of that era had no way to perform tasks or that pretty much anything unusual or unexplainable was proof of alien intervention but I won't because it's not logical and it's not science and people really need to stop doing it. If people are really interested in finding alien life, look to the stars because that's where it will exist. Not flying around in circles in some farmer's wheat field.

Eat your heart out VWM!

What if they are not in fact called 'aliens' but extra dimensional beings, the human mind is very complex, most humans only use 10% of their brains, what if, in actuality, what we are 'seeing' is only a perception of what our mind tells us we are seeing. There are dimensions all around us, that our 'human eyes' or 'mirrors of the soul or mind' do not pick up on, but some gifted people or psychics can pick up on.

What if in fact these 'aliens' are in fact, from a different dimension from our own, would it then not be a possible explanation for 'aliens'.

A lot of people believe in life after death, I and my father have seen a ghost at the same time, so it was not a figment of imagination, WE BOTH saw it!

Even Einstein believed in different dimensions within our own, and he was a certified genius!

I don't want to get into a debate with you skiny, but we have differing points of view on this matter

 

[skiny]

What if they are not in fact called 'aliens' but extra dimensional beings, the human mind is very complex, most humans only use 10% of their brains, what if, in actuality, what we are 'seeing' is only a perception of what our mind tells us we are seeing. There are dimensions all around us, that our 'human eyes' or 'mirrors of the soul or mind' do not pick up on, but some gifted people or psychics can pick up on.

What if in fact these 'aliens' are in fact, from a different dimension from our own, would it then not be a possible explanation for 'aliens'.

A lot of people believe in life after death, I and my father have seen a ghost at the same time, so it was not a figment of imagination, WE BOTH saw it!

Even Einstein believed in different dimensions within our own, and he was a certified genius!

I don't want to get into a debate with you skiny, but we have differing points of view on this matter

Other dimensions are thought to be a possibility by many physicists and a probability by some. Multiple universes are thought of the same. But that's metaphysics which is philosophy not science. Philosophy is not easily debated because neither side can be proven. If either side could be proven it would become scientific fact and not philosophical idea. The problem isn't with life existing in other dimensions. This is not outside the realm of possibility. The problem is life (or anything else) moving from one dimension to another.

From what I understand about alternate dimensional and multi-versal theories is that these "places" should have their own set of physical laws apart from ours. For the most part, that is why these theories exist in the first place. Many of these theories are an attempt to explain why our finely tuned laws of physics exist. People believe that they are too finely tuned to be an accident but if there are an infinite number of universes then there would be an infinite number of physical laws and ours wouldn't be so much of an unlikely accident if you increase the probability by narrowing the odds. If you increase the amount of attempts to infinity, our set of physical laws existing in at least one universe becomes a certitude.

If the laws of physics are different in each dimension it's incredibly unlikely that anything could exist outside of it's own. Again, this is all metaphysics and there is no way to prove or disprove any of it. I've also heard theories that gravity is as incredibly weak as it is compared to other natural forces because it spans multiple dimensions. Gravity is a thorn in my hip that one day I will pull out.

As for life after death, that's a religious debate and forums like this are not the best place to debate religion. Not if everyone wants to stay friends.

If people bring religion to me I will debate it all day but apart from that everyone is welcome to believe whatever they like. I'm certainly not going to try to convince you otherwise.

 

[Seventh777]

"The man in the NG documentary was not the same man in the original video." This is called a "recreation." Many documentaries don't use the original participants.

"The man who came to the pub with the video called himself John Whaley not John Wabe." Two very similar names. The man gave his name at the pub and the person receiving the name misheard it or remembered it incorrectly. There is also a chance he didn't want his real name to be used. If you can't ask this person if his name was given incorrectly intentionally or if it was misheard, you can't make up an answer for the question.

"The person responsible for filming the Oliver's Castle footage has disappeared." Disappearing is quite common when people find themselves lacking privacy or being harassed. There are a great number of alien hunters and debunkers who are probably far from subtle and would go to great lengths to talk to someone who allegedly filmed an alien even if he admitted later that it was a hoax. The video refers to other people who have done the same thing. I don't think people know what they're getting into when they start a hoax like this. It can be a pretty serious disruption to their lives if the story goes "viral."

Citing the same phenomenon in two separate videos doesn't really mean much if the process of creating the first hoax can easily be done on a home computer. The original video was analyzed and it was determined "there was field discrepancies on the video suggesting at some point the video had been rendered as an animation sequence." My logical question would be if the original video of this phenomenon was obviously tampered with and fraudulent, how can another person film a second video of a phenomenon that didn't exist in the first place? There are two possible answers. The first and least likely answer would be that the aliens came back and are apparently balls of light themselves or can control balls of light, recreating the original event once again in front of more people with video cameras neatly proving the first video which they probably wouldn't want humans to see is real. OR The second video was created much the same as the first for reasons only the creators can offer. If I can't ask someone why they did something, I won't make up my own answers for it.

Here's the thing - I am not anti-alien. I would be more than happy to discover life on other planets. If aliens exist with an advanced intelligence giving them the capability to visit Earth it would be an amazing discovery. It would be definite proof that we are not alone in the incredible vastness of the universe. Our universe has a billion galaxies with a billion stars in each and many planets around each star. I would rather believe that alien life exists in our universe than believe that out of at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe our sun is the only one that spawned life and that we are the only living creatures in a virtually endless sea of space. But no matter how much I dislike the thought that our species is the only intelligent species literally in existence I refuse to accept ridiculous claims. I refuse to accept illogical assumptions.

I have watched more ancient and modern alien documentaries than I can remember. But the proof is not there. I'm tired of all this blurry hand held camera footage of balls of light in the sky being "proof" of alien existence when it can be explained in a dozen different sensible ways. I watch footage of a supposed alien craft making a 90 degree turn at mach 2 when the inertia alone would rip the insides literally out of any living creature performing such a maneuver. (And I do mean literally.) You could say that the aliens have technology that dampen the inertia inside the craft but again that's a massive leap. It's an incredible assumption that lends credence to something that is highly improbable rather than apply real logic and say there's probably a more likely answer as to what this phenomenon is.

I'm tired of ancient alien theorists proving the existence of alien visitations by making statements like "There is no way people could have done this." or "There is no way people could have known this." These are not scientific statements. This is not scientific research. Paleontologists wouldn't find a stick with a hole in it beside a 2 million year old skeleton and declare that Homo habilis played the flute. These declarations are not scientific statements. This is what these alien theorists do constantly and it really gets under my skin. It's ok to look at an ancient carving and say wow, that looks like a rocket ship. It's NOT ok to look at this carving and say this is proof the person who carved this saw an actual rocket ship. In fact it's pretty damn far from ok because when you make that leap a thousand times people start to consider this to be mounting evidence where no actual evidence ever existed in the first place. This does more harm than good because if the day real evidence does show up nobody would ever find it in the sea of stupidity and misinformation that preceded it for decades.

I watched one documentary that cited over 50 different kinds of aliens. In a universe where the odds of even one intelligent extraterrestrial species existing within a billion miles of our planet are slim to none this documentary suggests that 50 different species have been to this planet. Do I look at proof of alien existence with pessimism and negativity? Yes, I most certainly do. I don't deny the possibility because it's impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist. I have absolutely no way to prove that unicorns don't exist or even the tooth fairy for that matter but if someone says they saw one I have to be skeptical. It's only sensible to be skeptical because the odds of it being true are phenomenal.

I could go back and watch any real documentary about ancient culture and point out hundreds of things that suggest that intelligent aliens interfered with the natural evolution of this culture. I could simply state that the people of that era had no way to perform tasks or that pretty much anything unusual or unexplainable was proof of alien intervention but I won't because it's not logical and it's not science and people really need to stop doing it. If people are really interested in finding alien life, look to the stars because that's where it will exist. Not flying around in circles in some farmer's wheat field.

Eat your heart out VWM!

Wow that`s some reply , I hear what you are saying and I agree with a lot of what you stated, but, I am also peeved with the manipulation and disinformationists involved with TPTB, I supplied a statement from Neil Armstrong clearly indicating that the moon had evidence of UFO`s and the like and this immediately got slapped with the classified information bat and anyone associated with it are forbidden to disclose it.

Like many aspects of life that don`t give 100% factual based evidence the truth can still be reached by the process of elimination, i`m not saying there are no crop circle hoaxers out there, far from it, or, signs that indicate Alien intervention, like you stated, in some cases the signs are clearly evident, but no actual proof, once the process of elimination has done it`s thing the only answer that is viable is Alien intervention.

There are two cases in particular that grab my attention atm and they are the UFO in the Baltic Sea and this...........

Egyptian Archaeologist Admits Pyramids May Contain Alien Technology
Dirk Vander Ploeg's picture
By Dirk Vander Ploeg - 1 year 1 month ago

Head of the Cairo University Archaeology Department, Dr Ala Shaheen in December 2010 had told an audience that there might be truth to the theory that aliens helped the ancient Egyptians build the oldest of pyramids, the Pyramids of Giza.

On being further questioned by Mr Marek Novak, a delegate from Poland as to whether the pyramid might still contain alien technology or even a UFO with its structure, Dr Shaheen, was vague and replied “I can not confirm or deny this, but there is something inside the pyramid that is “not of this world”.

Delegates to the conference on ancient Egyptian architecture were left shocked, however Dr Shaheen had refused to comment further or elaborate on his UFO and alien related statements.

Down below is 90's The Secret KGB UFO Files documentary, that's deals with the fact that Russian had already discovered the tomb of Alien Humanoid in Egypt and something is beneath the pyramid. The Secret KGB UFO Files documentary interestingly supporting the head of the Cairo University Archaeology Department, Dr Ala Shaheen claim as well.

Actually ancient Egyptian writings very often talk of beings from the sky, the sky opening and bright lights coming down to teach them technology and give them wisdom. Many pictures and symbols resemble UFOs and aliens. POSSIBLY aliens built the Great Pyramid. And these solid long lasting construction techniques were adopted by the Egyptians.

As is the case when events like this happen they are brushed under the carpet or the disinformationists *debunk* them, when a known and respected Archaeologist openly states that the pyramids may contain Alien Technology after witnessing what it is they do contain, then the alarm bells start to ring.

It`s like playing cluedo, okay you didn`t see Colonel Mustard kill Miss Scarlett in the study with the lead pipe, but it`s only a matter of time until this combination is the only one left.

The link I gave of UFO`s in art, what else can an obviously flying craft with a figure inside wearing some form of helmet mean?.

Oh, and the earlier link I gave of the Brazilian mutilation, when the signs are clearly there and experts openly admit that whatever instruments used to cause the wounds and remove tissue and vital organs, are nothing they have seen, how many possible answers are left?.

Cheers.

Roy.

 

[wanda5]

I watched a series recently about UFOs and some of the people who spoke were very convincing...especially the men from the air force who were supposedly in charge of cleaning up wreckage from UFO crash sites. I think its all pretty interesting.

I had a funny conversation with someone about the show and I said I was very open minded to the fact that we may not be the only intelligent life force... and I nearly died when she said "yeah but aliens are not in the Bible so I don't believe in them"
So I said "what if God created them after the Bible" and she just looked really confused.

 

[Seventh777]

Admittedly my overall knowledge regarding crop circles is limited at best, my recent research regarding this unexplained phenomena has unearthed some bizarre facts, this one however gets my attention, after scientific analysis it has surfaced that the seeds from the affected crop have been genetically modified and grow at a faster rate than the normal seeds, here is one such analysis ......................

Interview with Colin Andrews
by Monte Leach



Colin Andrews is an electrical engineer and former senior officer with
local government in West Hampshire, England. He is founder of Circles
Phenomenon Research, an international organization dedicated to the
investigation of the crop formations. His 1989 international best-selling book
Circular Evidence, co-authored with Pat Delgado, brought widespread attention
to the phenomenon, and has been translated into Japanese, German, Spanish, and
Italian. A more recent book, The Latest Evidence, was published in 1990 (see
Share International July/August 1991). Monte Leach interviewed him.



SI: What is the latest update on the crop circle phenomenon?


CA: We have been showing evidence, arrived at by a German distillation process
at HSC laboratory, at Stroud in Gloucestershire, that there had been a change
in the crystalline structure of the [crop circle] plants. This is an
unconventional process that's worried a lot of scientists, who were concerned
that we were travelling up the wrong road in our research.
I disagreed, and continue to disagree. But because it was an
unconventional approach, we had to find a laboratory prepared and equipped to
undertake more conventional analytical processes. Dr W.C. Levengood, a
biophysicist and plant expert in Michigan, took up the challenge. He already
has secured two major discoveries. One is that the cells at the nodal point,
the point at which the plants bend, about a half to one inch above ground
level, have fractured and scarred. That cannot occur by the trampling of feet,
or whirlwinds, or the other processes that we hear about. Dr Levengood is not
able to state precisely what causes that to happen, but is suggesting that it
is due to a rapid increase in temperature within the plant. This fracturing
and scarring of the cell structure supports the HSC Laboratory results.


SI: What was the other important finding?


CA: Dr Levengood planted the seeds from the cereal crops involved in this
phenomenon (those that were involved last year) and germinated them in
environmentally-sound conditions. He found that the date at which the plants
germinated was consistent with the controls, the plants outside of the crop
circle area. What he then found, and this is consistent with what we have been
looking at over the years, is that the plant growth is positive. That is to
say, the plants, once they've germinated, grew at a very much more accelerated
rate above ground level [than the control samples]. The root structure was
also much more extensive and healthy below ground level, as compared with the
control samples -- indeed many-fold healthier and more productive. That, too,
is a very important discovery. The plants were taken from three sites in the
world -- Australia, America, and Great Britain. We're looking at a consistency
here. Again, comparing that with wind damage, hoaxing, and trampling by human
feet, it isn't an effect than can be replicated.




SI: Will these results be published in any way?


CA: Yes, they will be. In fact, in a limited way, they have already been
published recently.*


SI: Are there any other developments with the scientific research?


CA: Yes, the work of Gerald Hawkins, the respected scientist in Washington,
DC, who has written books on the geometry of Stonehenge.




SI: What has he found with the crop circles?


CA: It's looking very exciting indeed. Prior to the launch of Circular
Evidence, we had an 'uncontaminated' period, a period during which -- I would
pretty well put my life on it -- we were not receiving any hoaxes at all. Since
the book was launched, the public became aware that something unusual was going
on, and of course now we have a high number of claims of hoaxes and indeed
physical hoaxes as well.
But in the crop formations of that pre-contaminated period prior to
1989, what Gerald Hawkins has proven is that, well beyond a chance of over 90
per cent, we are looking at diatonic ratios within the crop circles. And
perhaps we're looking at ancient geometry which could relate to sound itself,
because these are the same ratios which underlie the diatonic scale in music.
It's an extremely significant development. What's for sure is that I doubt if
there is any hoaxer in the world who would begin to even know what it is we're
talking about, let alone calculate his handiwork to compare ancient diatonic
ratios of that kind.

That`s some pretty impressive stuff these hoaxers do, trampling a crop with wooden boards that have genetically improvement powers attached to them, it has also come to my attention that most of the crop circles appear in the long summer nights of which there is roughly 4 hours of darkness, giving very little time for the hoaxers to create these complex images, surveyors stating that the larger images would take them several days to plot and place the relevant markers needed to make the images as symmetrically perfect as they are.

I have also as of yet, not managed to find out how exactly the hoaxers make these, as there are clear signs of heat being administered to the bottoms of the stalks and thus causing them to bend at 90 degrees, genetically modifying the seeds, causing EMP that makes mobile phones etcetera behave erratically, have a knowledge of ancient diatonic ratios, having barely enough time to set out the pegs for the image, let alone create it.

Over 30 countries have now experienced crop circles, all these are identical in relation to the points stated above.

 

[skiny]

As is the case when events like this happen they are brushed under the carpet or the disinformationists *debunk* them, when a known and respected Archaeologist openly states that the pyramids may contain Alien Technology after witnessing what it is they do contain, then the alarm bells start to ring.

And here's where the problem lies. The only mention I can find about a name even remotely close to that who may have made this statement is Alaa Shahein who only seems to exist in this one conference which took place (remarkably) the same year as this news story broke (2010.)

If you scroll down

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of The First International Conference on Ancient Egyptian Science you'll find his name mentioned.

12:30-02:30 Session II: Astronomy

Chairman: Dr. Alaa Shahein & Dr. Magdi Abd el Wahab
Speakers:
1- Dr. Shahinaz Yousef; Dr. Khadiga Abdur-Rahman; Dr. Mohammed Mounirand Dr. Moutaz Mazloum
The Nile Ancient Egyptians Epoch La Nina and El Nino during the times of the prophets Yusuf and Moses
2- Dr. Mosalam Shaltout
The dawn of Astronomy in the world: Napta Playa , Egypt, 4890 BCE
3- Dr. Hanan A. Abou el-Dahab
Sotis and Isis: A comparative study since early history of Ancient Egypt till the end of the Graeco-Roman Period
5- Dr. Yosef Mazhar
Wind directions and conditions on ancient Egyptian sailing ships


The real Prof. Alaaeldin M. Shaheen was the Dean of the Faculty of Archaeology at Cairo University at the time of this conference and may still be because the university's website is in Arabic and I can't make heads or tails of it. But on the

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there is a list of conferences he attended with the dates ending in 2008 and no mention of this international conference. I also can't find the original news story regarding this claim.

There is massive amounts of misinformation and disinformation regarding UFO sightings, extraterrestrial technology and ancient alien artifacts making it impossible to believe any claims since most of these claims are either intentional hoaxes, bad journalism or just plain lies to sell books and get hits on websites. And it's a real pain in the ass for people who really want to know the truth and have to do the leg work to sift through all the crap only to find out none of it was true in the first place. You can't trust anything you read. You can't take anything at face value. If someone tells you something extraordinary it is not a fact until it has been verified by a reliable source. Websites designed to report alien encounters and tabloids that will print anything if it sells more newspapers are not reliable sources. Home made YouTube videos are not reliable sources either.

 

[Seventh777]

And here's where the problem lies. The only mention I can find about a name even remotely close to that who may have made this statement is Alaa Shahein who only seems to exist in this one conference which took place (remarkably) the same year as this news story broke (2010.)

If you scroll down

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of The First International Conference on Ancient Egyptian Science you'll find his name mentioned.

12:30-02:30 Session II: Astronomy

Chairman: Dr. Alaa Shahein & Dr. Magdi Abd el Wahab
Speakers:
1- Dr. Shahinaz Yousef; Dr. Khadiga Abdur-Rahman; Dr. Mohammed Mounirand Dr. Moutaz Mazloum
The Nile Ancient Egyptians Epoch La Nina and El Nino during the times of the prophets Yusuf and Moses
2- Dr. Mosalam Shaltout
The dawn of Astronomy in the world: Napta Playa , Egypt, 4890 BCE
3- Dr. Hanan A. Abou el-Dahab
Sotis and Isis: A comparative study since early history of Ancient Egypt till the end of the Graeco-Roman Period
5- Dr. Yosef Mazhar
Wind directions and conditions on ancient Egyptian sailing ships


The real Prof. Alaaeldin M. Shaheen was the Dean of the Faculty of Archaeology at Cairo University at the time of this conference and may still be because the university's website is in Arabic and I can't make heads or tails of it. But on the

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there is a list of conferences he attended with the dates ending in 2008 and no mention of this international conference. I also can't find the original news story regarding this claim.

There is massive amounts of misinformation and disinformation regarding UFO sightings, extraterrestrial technology and ancient alien artifacts making it impossible to believe any claims since most of these claims are either intentional hoaxes, bad journalism or just plain lies to sell books and get hits on websites. And it's a real pain in the ass for people who really want to know the truth and have to do the leg work to sift through all the crap only to find out none of it was true in the first place. You can't trust anything you read. You can't take anything at face value. If someone tells you something extraordinary it is not a fact until it has been verified by a reliable source. Websites designed to report alien encounters and tabloids that will print anything if it sells more newspapers are not reliable sources. Home made YouTube videos are not reliable sources either.

Ah, I know only to well the importance of reliable sources, that`s why I chose a link that returned 5370 pages, admittedly I didn`t read everyone .......

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I noticed you didn`t comment about the points I brought up regarding crop circles .

I also forgot to give the video link that accompanied this aspect.



Footnote :- youtube is the largest free video hosting site on the net, amongst all the bullcrap you will find the good stuff .

 

[skiny]

I noticed you didn`t comment about the points I brought up regarding crop circles .

I think we were actually typing at the same time so I didn't see your next post until after.

I did read through it but I haven't had time to do the actual research. The first thing that makes me suspicious is this -

"Colin Andrews is an electrical engineer and former senior officer with
local government in West Hampshire, England. He is founder of Circles
Phenomenon Research, an international organization dedicated to the
investigation of the crop formations. His 1989 international best-selling book
Circular Evidence, "

and this

"CA: We have been showing evidence, arrived at by a German distillation process
at HSC laboratory, at Stroud in Gloucestershire, that there had been a change
in the crystalline structure of the [crop circle] plants. This is an
unconventional process that's worried a lot of scientists,"

I've also read that Dr. Levengood is a believer in aliens visitations and I'm still looking for his papers on this research. I won't discount the research until I've read it and it's entirely possible that I won't even understand it in which case I need to see it accepted by someone who does understand it and has nothing to gain from it's findings. it seems that Dr. Levengood has pretty much made this his life's work which makes me wonder also where the funding comes from since this kind of research doesn't come cheap. As I said, I do come at this from a pessimistic perspective but I won't discount anything without good reason and this needs more research.

That`s some pretty impressive stuff these hoaxers do, trampling a crop with wooden boards that have genetically improvement powers attached to them, it has also come to my attention that most of the crop circles appear in the long summer nights of which there is roughly 4 hours of darkness, giving very little time for the hoaxers to create these complex images, surveyors stating that the larger images would take them several days to plot and place the relevant markers needed to make the images as symmetrically perfect as they are.

Human crop circle creators have shown it is possible to create these large shapes by actually doing it. Here is a Norwegian film crew finding some sort of enlightenment upon the discovery of a crop circle that was petitioned to be created for an episode of the TV show QI. The crop circle is in the shape of the televlsions show's logo.



The actual crop circle.

Over 30 countries have now experienced crop circles, all these are identical in relation to the points stated above.

There is also apparently a direct link between a lack of crop circles and unaccessable land such as fenced in areas and land clearly marked "No Tresspassing." It's possible the aliens respect our right to privacy but I'm still looking for the actual research on this too.

Footnote :- youtube is the largest free video hosting site on the net, amongst all the bullcrap you will find the good stuff

I agree. Youtube has an amazing amount of college and university lectures and seminars people can watch for free on a wide range of subjects.

The last video you posted is over an hour long. I don't have time to watch it today. lol

 

[Seventh777]

I think we were actually typing at the same time so I didn't see your next post until after.

I did read through it but I haven't had time to do the actual research. The first thing that makes me suspicious is this -

"Colin Andrews is an electrical engineer and former senior officer with
local government in West Hampshire, England. He is founder of Circles
Phenomenon Research, an international organization dedicated to the
investigation of the crop formations. His 1989 international best-selling book
Circular Evidence, "

and this

"CA: We have been showing evidence, arrived at by a German distillation process
at HSC laboratory, at Stroud in Gloucestershire, that there had been a change
in the crystalline structure of the [crop circle] plants. This is an
unconventional process that's worried a lot of scientists,"

I've also read that Dr. Levengood is a believer in aliens visitations and I'm still looking for his papers on this research. I won't discount the research until I've read it and it's entirely possible that I won't even understand it in which case I need to see it accepted by someone who does understand it and has nothing to gain from it's findings. it seems that Dr. Levengood has pretty much made this his life's work which makes me wonder also where the funding comes from since this kind of research doesn't come cheap. As I said, I do come at this from a pessimistic perspective but I won't discount anything without good reason and this needs more research.



Human crop circle creators have shown it is possible to create these large shapes by actually doing it. Here is a Norwegian film crew finding some sort of enlightenment upon the discovery of a crop circle that was petitioned to be created for an episode of the TV show QI. The crop circle is in the shape of the televlsions show's logo.



The actual crop circle.

View attachment 35035



There is also apparently a direct link between a lack of crop circles and unaccessable land such as fenced in areas and land clearly marked "No Tresspassing." It's possible the aliens respect our right to privacy but I'm still looking for the actual research on this too.



I agree. Youtube has an amazing amount of college and university lectures and seminars people can watch for free on a wide range of subjects.

The last video you posted is over an hour long. I don't have time to watch it today. lol

Damn, you`re a seasoned debater lol, okay, I sifted through the many links containing genetically modified seeds and found a peer reviewed analysis......

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A quote from the above link.....

In his first peer-reviewed paper on crop circles, Anatomical Anomalies in Crop Formation Plants , Dr. Levengood states that "the affected plants have components which suggest the involvement of rapid air movement, ionization, electric fields and transient high temperatures combined with an oxidizing atmosphere. One naturally occurring and organized force incorporating each of these features is an ion plasma vortex, one very high energy example being a lightning charge."

If you google - crop circle genetically modified seeds, you get a bucketful of pages and many contain testing analysis, tbh, the more I research this the more bizarre it gets, dating back over 500 years and over 10,000 recorded cases, that is dedicated hoaxers right there lol.

Being a clued up guy with knowledge of physics etcetera I think you should give this some of your undivided attention, Dave and Doug the original hoaxers is worth some time also.

Once again we arrive at the stage where seasoned experts in all fields (pun intended) have been outwitted by those they try and debunk, they have absolutely no clue as to how the circles are created, but, will put their reputations at stake they are man made, so, to come to this conclusion they must have significant enough evidence and the relative instruments that make them, they do not, they are as bewildered as the rest of us, their conclusion of being man made is no different to those who believe they are of Alien origin.

I stumbled across the QI logo re-creation the other day, but, what we need here is a reconstruction of one of the more complex circles that has a proven and documented overall period of time it took to make, done at night, and has identical traits that have been exposed by scientific tests and analysis, there are many sites that explain in great detail what all these aspects entail, I just found a peer reviewed one.

Created in identical conditions including the time stamp, bearing the same anomalies, then and only then we can both agree that they have been debunked and are a hoax .

 

[skiny]

I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'm out of town for a few days and have no computer time. I'll be back home soon and I can look at some of this stuff in depth.

 

[Seventh777]

I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'm out of town for a few days and have no computer time. I'll be back home soon and I can look at some of this stuff in depth.

Cool, it`s worth the time and effort imo .

 

[skiny]

The problem with the bucket full of websites I get is that they're all alien conspiracy sites and it's been shown time and time again that these sites tend to only offer information that suits their views or needs. I've seen a few references to the actual research and bits and pieces of the research but I still haven't found the research itself. I also haven't seen an independent peer review of this research. Can you find anywhere this research was published in a mainstream science journal? I tried but I can't. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just can't find it.

Ok, so after spending a half hour roaming from UFO site to UFO site and a few forums this is what I find. First I'll ignore the claims that Dr. Levengood doesn't actually have a PhD because I can't find any reliable source on this matter. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Second, I find it strange that a biophysicist studying crop circles would be a member of MUFON The Mutual UFO Network. It may mean nothing but I find it a little weird.

Then I started to find some pages that claimed the Outdated URL (timeout) (Burke, Talbott and Levengood) research had some

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and some claims that man made samples had shown the

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as crop circle samples and I could go on to paste another insanely huge list of quotes from these pages that nobody probably wants to read anyway but I won't bother because one thing keeps bugging me the entire time I'm researching this "scientific" work.

How can anyone research the difference between man made crop circles and crop circles of unknown origin? The fact that they are of unknown origin in itself renders the entire process useless. Lets pretend for a minute that we believe that at least SOME crop circles have a supernatural or extraterrestrial origin. There is absolutely no way to accurately separate and classify the data from any of the samples. Samples taken from crop circles of unknown origin can easily have been man made. People who have taken credit for the creation of some crop circles could be giving false information which would then classify these as "of unknown origin" although they would be in the man made classification set. There is a bleeding of data between the two classifications that is impossible to control and the only samples we can say with any certainty are not tainted are samples taken outside of crop circle areas. There is the option of creating your own crop circles to guarantee that the "man made" crop circles are genuine but then you have to assume you're using identical methods that were used to create existing man made crop circles.

Now on top of that problem you have the problem of having no way to reproduce a crop circle made of unknown origin. (Because then you would know it's origin.) Even if it was made by extraterrestrials you can't very well ask an extraterrestrial to make you a crop circle for the purpose of testing. So even though you may spend years collecting data all it can be used for is statistical purposes. With no means to recreate any of your findings under laboratory conditions it's impossible to a create a working scientific theory. Maybe that's why most of this research hasn't been published in mainstream scientific journals.

So after over 10 years, maybe even 20 years what the BTI research group has is almost 2 decades worth of unverifiable statistics which may show a correlation between altered plants and crop circles of unknown origin but no causation since it's a well known statistical fact that correlation does not equal causation and the cause cannot be determined without a means to recreate the effect.

It did manage to sell some books and get Dr. Levengood on a couple documentaries though. Good for him.

 

[Seventh777]

The problem with the bucket full of websites I get is that they're all alien conspiracy sites and it's been shown time and time again that these sites tend to only offer information that suits their views or needs. I've seen a few references to the actual research and bits and pieces of the research but I still haven't found the research itself. I also haven't seen an independent peer review of this research. Can you find anywhere this research was published in a mainstream science journal? I tried but I can't. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just can't find it.

Ok, so after spending a half hour roaming from UFO site to UFO site and a few forums this is what I find. First I'll ignore the claims that Dr. Levengood doesn't actually have a PhD because I can't find any reliable source on this matter. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Second, I find it strange that a biophysicist studying crop circles would be a member of MUFON The Mutual UFO Network. It may mean nothing but I find it a little weird.

Then I started to find some pages that claimed the Outdated URL (timeout) (Burke, Talbott and Levengood) research had some

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and some claims that man made samples had shown the

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as crop circle samples and I could go on to paste another insanely huge list of quotes from these pages that nobody probably wants to read anyway but I won't bother because one thing keeps bugging me the entire time I'm researching this "scientific" work.

How can anyone research the difference between man made crop circles and crop circles of unknown origin? The fact that they are of unknown origin in itself renders the entire process useless. Lets pretend for a minute that we believe that at least SOME crop circles have a supernatural or extraterrestrial origin. There is absolutely no way to accurately separate and classify the data from any of the samples. Samples taken from crop circles of unknown origin can easily have been man made. People who have taken credit for the creation of some crop circles could be giving false information which would then classify these as "of unknown origin" although they would be in the man made classification set. There is a bleeding of data between the two classifications that is impossible to control and the only samples we can say with any certainty are not tainted are samples taken outside of crop circle areas. There is the option of creating your own crop circles to guarantee that the "man made" crop circles are genuine but then you have to assume you're using identical methods that were used to create existing man made crop circles.

Now on top of that problem you have the problem of having no way to reproduce a crop circle made of unknown origin. (Because then you would know it's origin.) Even if it was made by extraterrestrials you can't very well ask an extraterrestrial to make you a crop circle for the purpose of testing. So even though you may spend years collecting data all it can be used for is statistical purposes. With no means to recreate any of your findings under laboratory conditions it's impossible to a create a working scientific theory. Maybe that's why most of this research hasn't been published in mainstream scientific journals.

So after over 10 years, maybe even 20 years what the BTI research group has is almost 2 decades worth of unverifiable statistics which may show a correlation between altered plants and crop circles of unknown origin but no causation since it's a well known statistical fact that correlation does not equal causation and the cause cannot be determined without a means to recreate the effect.

It did manage to sell some books and get Dr. Levengood on a couple documentaries though. Good for him.

I`m not sure as to which scientific journals are the big guns, he has had peer reviewed articles in Science and Nature and a few others............

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I know this can be a no-brainer and having to sort out internet hearsay and dis/misinformation from the authentic data can be a nightmare, I find this site a good base to start at, Outdated URL (timeout) this site also has a list of their consultants, and where they achieved their relative degrees.............

LEVENGOOD, W.C. ........................................................... Biophysicist
M.S. in Biophysics, University of Michigan--1970
M.A. in Bioscience, Ball State University--1961
Research physicist at the Institute of Science and Technology and the Department of Natural Resources, University of Michigan, 1961-1970; Director of Biophysical Research for private-sector companies, 1970-1983. Has published 50+ papers, in professional scientific journals, including Nature and Science. Three papers (1994; 1995; 1999) present results of laboratory work on crop circle plants and soils.

I`m not stating that this is the case here, but, it wouldn`t be the 1st time an independent expert in a certain field has stepped upto the table with their analysis`s etcetera and been subject to `Lack of credentials` and the character assassination begins, Dr Levengood`s profile clearly shows the universities where he obtained his Masters of Science and Masters of Arts degrees, whether these degrees entitle him to put a Dr before his name I don`t know, but, this should not be an aspect that puts his work (especially the peer reviewed articles) under scrutiny.

For an organisation as devoted as BLT to their research regarding crop circles and their results to be taken serious, I very much doubt they would use personnel with faked/bogus credentials, I also stumbled across this research done by Richard Taylor, he cites BLT and based his research on their findings and speculation whilst trying to incorporate micro waves into his tests, an aspect normally overlooked by scientists when doing similar tests......

Outdated URL (Invalid)

He will have to attempt to recreate the rest of the anomalies BLT has discovered, which he neglected to include in his report. You can see a list of them at the BLT crop circle plant abnormalities page. Outdated URL (timeout)

Why did Taylor fail to include all these anomalies in his report?, also, failing to acknowledge certain aspects and incorporate them into your tests is a poor attempt (at best) to recreate an event, a bit like re-enacting the sinking of the Titanic without an iceberg .

P.S.

When looking around BLT`s site and published papers have a read of the Nat Geo related article, makes for some interesting reading........

Outdated URL (timeout)

 

[skiny]

I'm not arguing that Dr. Levengood holds a PhD. I already gave him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not even arguing that the BTI research group hasn't made every effort to collect and classify all of their data honestly and to the best of their ability. The problem is the data has to be separated into groups of origin.

It is highly unlikely that someone has claimed responsibility for every single crop circle that has ever been made by man. So in separating crop circles into groups you have crop circles in the "unknown origin" group with man made crop circles in it. Now this being the case either one of two things is happening. You either have crop circles made by man showing the same abnormalities in the plants or you have crop circles in the "unknown origin" category showing no abnormalities in the plants.

This renders the entire classification process meaningless because if plants with and without abnormalities are present in the "unknown origin" category, all you're really doing is looking for crop circles with abnormalities in the plants and tossing out the rest.

And on top of that you have data collected showing abnormalities with no way of showing the cause because you have no way of recreating something that was created using an unknown method.

BTI can be as devoted to this research as they like but all their doing is collecting statistical data and unless the origin of all the crop circles is known it's not even verifiable data.

By the way, I checked that list of published papers by Dr. Levengood and I don't see any that have anything to do with crop circles. (Unless crop circles aren't mentioned in the title or description.)

 

[Seventh777]

I'm not arguing that Dr. Levengood holds a PhD. I already gave him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not even arguing that the BTI research group hasn't made every effort to collect and classify all of their data honestly and to the best of their ability. The problem is the data has to be separated into groups of origin.

It is highly unlikely that someone has claimed responsibility for every single crop circle that has ever been made by man. So in separating crop circles into groups you have crop circles in the "unknown origin" group with man made crop circles in it. Now this being the case either one of two things is happening. You either have crop circles made by man showing the same abnormalities in the plants or you have crop circles in the "unknown origin" category showing no abnormalities in the plants.

This renders the entire classification process meaningless because if plants with and without abnormalities are present in the "unknown origin" category, all you're really doing is looking for crop circles with abnormalities in the plants and tossing out the rest.

And on top of that you have data collected showing abnormalities with no way of showing the cause because you have no way of recreating something that was created using an unknown method.

BTI can be as devoted to this research as they like but all their doing is collecting statistical data and unless the origin of all the crop circles is known it's not even verifiable data.

By the way, I checked that list of published papers by Dr. Levengood and I don't see any that have anything to do with crop circles. (Unless crop circles aren't mentioned in the title or description.)

I`m not sure where you are getting the information regarding which are man made circles and what are of unknown origin, these tests are a result of analysing over 95% of worldwide crop formations, I take it the other 5% are known to be man made, which have the obvious tell tall signs.

Abstract:
The findings reported here lend further support to a decade of research which suggests that over 95% of worldwide crop formations involve organized ion plasma vortices that deliver lower atmosphere energy components of sufficient magnitude to produce significant bending, expansion and the formation of unique expulsion cavities in plant stem pulvini, as well as significant changes in seedling development. Here we demonstrate that, in a number of formations, quantitative node alterations can be directly related to fundamental concepts of electromagnetic energy absorption through the atmosphere. Also, in a detailed field study of simulated crop formations, we show that over fertilization or gravitropism cannot account for observed physiological alterations. In addition, we demonstrate that details of flattened, intertwined crop patterns can be described by the application of fluid dynamic principles governing the interaction of rectilinearly moving vortex pairs.

I believe these are his peer reviewed papers.....

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These explain in full detail how they arrive at the statistical data on which their end results are based.

 

[Nifty29]

It's a great discussion guys. It really is, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I don't put my 2c worth in because it isn't a topic on which I consider myself "informed".

My personal view is that aliens exist. I just think that odds that the millions of planets that exist in the universe are all completely uninhabited are.....well pretty damn long. We also have a very narrow view of what constitutes "life"....just because we can't comprehend life that has no.physical form etc doesn't mean it cannot exist......which leads me to my next observation.

It seems the answers provided by most alien visitation believers to challenges from the scientific community almost always involve a large element of "well prove me wrong then"......much like when some players firmly believe someone from the casino is watching their every bet and changing the reels on a constant basis......and this is what concerns me most. I've been reading this thread and the links, and I still don't think there is any even quasi-concrete evidence to support alien visitation theories.

I think Roy argues his points very well, and skiny equally, but I still get the underlying message of "well, yeah, the proof isn't solid, but prove it doesn't happen"......which isn't the way to go if you're the one putting the theory forward. Mind you, that's just my take on it, and its nothing personal, as I see it is most CT discussions.

Anyway, I'm no expert as I said, but some questions do come into my head and they have never been able to be answered. One is why those abducted by aliens all seem to be from remote places and have few teeth, and are almost always known previously as unreliable....and almost always from low socio-economic groups? It seems odd that aliens would only want to study these people. What about important people in government or military positions, and city dwellers etc? I know if the chairman of the JCS in the US came up with an abduction story it would carry a lot more credibility, In fact, nobody reliable ever seems to be abducted. I've been told that the aliens know that nobody will believe these people, so they can carry on unimpeded, but then if they were so well informed about our social structures etc, they wouldn't need to abduct alcoholics and hillbillies,because they would already know that they represent one section of humanity.

I have others, like why things need to be shoved up abducted people's bums when you would safely assume they would have scanning capabilities far beyond our own.

A lot of it makes no sense, and just because something cannot be explained, doesn't mean it is alien.

Well that's my 2c worth that I said I wouldn't give. My mind is still open, so carry on.

 

[skiny]

I`m not sure where you are getting the information regarding which are man made circles and what are of unknown origin, these tests are a result of analysing over 95% of worldwide crop formations, I take it the other 5% are known to be man made, which have the obvious tell tall signs.

Hoaxing is so common that even so called "crop circle experts" concede that a vast majority of crop circles are man made. Some estimate as many as 80% of crop circles are hoaxes. Certainly more than 5%. Since it's a well known fact that many crop circles are man it can't be said that a crop circle isn't man made simply because nobody has claimed responsibility for it. Even if only 50% were man made there would still be no way to know which ones of unknown origin are actually man made.

 

[Seventh777]

It's a great discussion guys. It really is, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I don't put my 2c worth in because it isn't a topic on which I consider myself "informed".

My personal view is that aliens exist. I just think that odds that the millions of planets that exist in the universe are all completely uninhabited are.....well pretty damn long. We also have a very narrow view of what constitutes "life"....just because we can't comprehend life that has no.physical form etc doesn't mean it cannot exist......which leads me to my next observation.

It seems the answers provided by most alien visitation believers to challenges from the scientific community almost always involve a large element of "well prove me wrong then"......much like when some players firmly believe someone from the casino is watching their every bet and changing the reels on a constant basis......and this is what concerns me most. I've been reading this thread and the links, and I still don't think there is any even quasi-concrete evidence to support alien visitation theories.

I think Roy argues his points very well, and skiny equally, but I still get the underlying message of "well, yeah, the proof isn't solid, but prove it doesn't happen"......which isn't the way to go if you're the one putting the theory forward. Mind you, that's just my take on it, and its nothing personal, as I see it is most CT discussions.

Anyway, I'm no expert as I said, but some questions do come into my head and they have never been able to be answered. One is why those abducted by aliens all seem to be from remote places and have few teeth, and are almost always known previously as unreliable....and almost always from low socio-economic groups? It seems odd that aliens would only want to study these people. What about important people in government or military positions, and city dwellers etc? I know if the chairman of the JCS in the US came up with an abduction story it would carry a lot more credibility, In fact, nobody reliable ever seems to be abducted. I've been told that the aliens know that nobody will believe these people, so they can carry on unimpeded, but then if they were so well informed about our social structures etc, they wouldn't need to abduct alcoholics and hillbillies,because they would already know that they represent one section of humanity.

I have others, like why things need to be shoved up abducted people's bums when you would safely assume they would have scanning capabilities far beyond our own.

A lot of it makes no sense, and just because something cannot be explained, doesn't mean it is alien.

Well that's my 2c worth that I said I wouldn't give. My mind is still open, so carry on.

It`s a no-brainer, for me the deciding factors are the amount of government intervention in these matters regarding dis/misinformation, an earlier link I gave regarding Nat Geo and their documentary involving crop circles is a huge example of government controlled media channels courtesy of Rupert Murdoch, spouting untruths and half assed attempts to debunk etcetera.


UFO`s have had so much publicity over the last 30,000 years or so it would be impossible for governments not to have agencies covering this matter, but, just how much do these agencies disclose to us is another prime example of keeping the public in general in the dark, if there was absolutely no truth in Alien`s UFO`s etc the government would not be spending so much time and money on their various misinformation techniques, and ofc running the agencies which research it.

Cheers.

Roy.

 

[Seventh777]

Hoaxing is so common that even so called "crop circle experts" concede that a vast majority of crop circles are man made. Some estimate as many as 80% of crop circles are hoaxes. Certainly more than 5%. Since it's a well known fact that many crop circles are man it can't be said that a crop circle isn't man made simply because nobody has claimed responsibility for it. Even if only 50% were man made there would still be no way to know which ones of unknown origin are actually man made.

I hear what you`re saying bud...If man made/origin unknown circles are set apart purely for the anomalies as per se, then how do we know if some of these circles have been made by man, but, and I think you agree, no matter what the final percentage turns out to be, call it 5%, if the 5% is not made by man, nor any other animal, a mineral, or plant, then, it`s safe to assess that whatever made them is not of this planet.

Crop circles are not an indication of Alien involvement, Alien involvement is an indication as to when something is produced that is beyond man`s capabilities, as are the cookie cutter anomalies, not forgetting the Nat Geo documentary that by all accounts is there to look for answers, for all of us, and not completely ignore all the relevant data supplied by BLT and mimic creating a crop circle, whilst, just doing nothing more than walking around an already created one pretending you are creating it.

The reason a well known brand like Nat Geo should be called upon, is to investigate events without prejudice and pass on their results, not, to basically ridicule, misinform, ignore relative data, fake re-constructions etc.


If for arguments sake, governments have known of UFO`s/Alien`s for several years and still want to keep this hush hush, then for some bizarre reason Alien`s have decided to communicate with us via crop circles and in doing so could lift the lid off the whole Alien scenario, what do you think the government agencies involved with this matter would do?.

 

[skiny]

If you have no interest in physics or cosmology you might want to skip this one.

This is a little long and dry (that's what she said) but it does tie into the search for life and even the existence of life at the end.

One of the things that science has told us recently is there is no such thing as empty space. It was actually first hypothesized in the 30s but since then has become accepted by mainstream science. If you remove every photon, every proton, every electron, neutrino and everything else we know of in the universe from a piece of space it still is not empty. Empty space is filled with something physicists called "dark matter." It sounds evil but it's not. It's no more evil than light or the elementary particles that make up the matter we can see. They could have just as easily called it Mickey Mouse and it would have changed nothing. They called it dark matter simply because we can't see it. Not only can we not see it, we can't smell it, feel it or taste it. It's almost like a ghost. And I say almost because what we can do is measure it. The only reason we can measure it is because physics tells us something should be there and we know exactly how much of something should be there.

Now I don't claim to understand all the complex equations and formulas that some of the most brilliant minds of our time (and before) have come up with to explain why the universe behaves like it does but what I do understand is that if empty space was empty the universe would not be expanding. Everything in the universe has a gravitational pull. If the only the matter that we can see and touch existed the gravitational pull of everything in the universe would have collapsed the universe back on itself long ago.

Enter dark matter. Dark matter has a repulsive nature, gravity has the opposite and so the struggle begins. Right now the repulsive nature of dark matter is having a much greater effect on entire galaxies because the gravitational pull between galaxies is much lower than it is between stars and planets and moons within the galaxies. The way expansion works is that the farther away from an object something is, the faster it moves away. So the longer the universe expands the faster it will expand.

Now the theory of general relativity tells us that nothing can move faster than light. This is true but this is relative to space. Nothing can move at a speed greater than the speed of light relative to space. This doesn't apply to space itself. Space itself can expand as fast as it likes. When space expands faster than the speed of light, light can't move fast enough to travel from one place to another. As the expansion of space increases toward the speed of light, light traveling back is stretched into the red spectrum and then into the infrared and then it will simply no longer be able to reach us from it's point of origin. At that point the universe goes dark. Eventually dark matter wins and everything in the universe will move so far away from everything else that for everything in the universe the rest of the universe will be a cold dark, empty place where not even light from distant stars can reach it.

Now this all sounds rather depressing but rest assured none of us will be around to see it. Now I'm not saying any of us are going anywhere any time soon but in about 5 billion years the sun will end it's life cycle. It will collapse upon itself and then start to swell into a red giant with a radius greater than the orbit of the Earth swallowing up the Earth in the process. And around the same time the Andromeda galaxy will collide with the Milky Way which just happens to be the galaxy we live in and the universe will go on expanding oblivious to our little problems.

Ok, so what does this have to do with life in the universe? Well, this whole train of thought started with a little graph I saw. I'll first share the graph.


Believe it or not this graph was on a creationism site.

Now as you can see in the graph over billions of years the density of the universe (red line) decreases. This is due to the expansion of the universe. The farther away everything moves from everything else, the less dense the whole package becomes. But if you look at the cosmological constant (empty space, dark matter) it never changes. The energy density of empty space which is what is causing the expansion of the universe is a perfectly straight line. So what does this mean? It means that the energy density of dark matter allowed the universe to form into what it is today. If you slide that line further up the scale and increase the energy density of empty space it would have expanded the universe at a much greater rate. Slide it up far enough (10^-27) and it sits right were galaxies were formed. The expansion of the universe would have not allowed the formation of galaxies in the first place. Slide it down too far and gravity would have bound all matter in the universe together in one big clump. It sits nicely in a spot that allows all matter in the universe to forum into separate planets, stars, moons and galaxies. (Doesn't sound so evil now, does it?)

But here's the really odd thing. We just happen to be sitting right where the lines cross. (14 billion years.) The energy density of empty space is almost equal to the energy density of everything else in the universe. But we're not supposed to be existing in any special time in the history of the universe. Now I have no idea why we're sitting in this very special place. It could be a matter of huge coincidence. (Really huge in a 14 billion year old universe.) Or it could mean that we happen to be sitting right in the middle of a very small window (cosmologically speaking) when the universe is life friendly.

We talk about extraterrestrial life and the really strange thing is that we may be looking for it now and we may even find it now because in a universe that started as at a single point and will eventually expand so much and be expanding so fast that even light won't be able to travel between two points, this is literally the only time we can.

I actually intended for this to be a couple of paragraphs but I do tend to ramble. Also, most of this crap just comes out of my head so if you see any mistakes please feel free to correct them.

 

[skiny]

I hear what you`re saying bud...If man made/origin unknown circles are set apart purely for the anomalies as per se, then how do we know if some of these circles have been made by man, but, and I think you agree, no matter what the final percentage turns out to be, call it 5%, if the 5% is not made by man, nor any other animal, a mineral, or plant, then, it`s safe to assess that whatever made them is not of this planet.

Crop circles are not an indication of Alien involvement, Alien involvement is an indication as to when something is produced that is beyond man`s capabilities, as are the cookie cutter anomalies, not forgetting the Nat Geo documentary that by all accounts is there to look for answers, for all of us, and not completely ignore all the relevant data supplied by BLT and mimic creating a crop circle, whilst, just doing nothing more than walking around an already created one pretending you are creating it.

The reason a well known brand like Nat Geo should be called upon, is to investigate events without prejudice and pass on their results, not, to basically ridicule, misinform, ignore relative data, fake re-constructions etc.

I'm fine with all of this. I'm all for doing as much research as possible on every single little thing in the universe. The more research we do the more we understand and that is what science is all about. What I'm not fine with is people giving credit for anything on this planet or in this universe to extraterrestrials simply because we don't know how it happened or why it happens. This kind of science is exactly how the sun became a religious entity. This is why we sacrificed animals to guarantee healthy crops. This is why we thought lightning came from an angry God.

We live in a universe where things that we didn't understand have been happening naturally through the laws of physics and cosmology since long before life even existed. We understand much of what happens today through science because science refuses to just accept that things can't happen naturally. We understand that the sun is a burning ball of mostly hydrogen. We understand that solar activity, the earth's temperature, air currents, evaporation, cloud formation and so on and so on causes the weather to behave the way it does and killing a goat changes nothing. We understand how electricity works and why there is a transfer of energy from either clouds or the atmosphere due electrostatic imbalances.

Now some might say once you understand this the magic is gone but I believe the more you understand the more magic it becomes. I find it much more interesting that the universe can do all of this naturally without the help of any guiding hands and even if we knew for a fact that not even one crop circle that has ever been found was man made I would still refuse to hand the credit for this over to some alien race just because I don't know how it happened yet. If there are really abnormalities in these plants that's great. It's one more mystery for us to solve. So lets stop making incredible assumptions that are impossible for us to prove and do some real science and figure out exactly why.

If the history of science has taught us anything, it's taught us that there is a reasonable explanation for everything in the universe and we have a pretty good track record for explaining it. We don't have an explanation for all of it yet but given enough time we will. And so far none of our explanations required acts of God or help from extraterrestrials. Nature is a wonderfully simple and incredibly complex thing that I'm happy to say will continue to baffle and enlighten us for many, many years to come.

 

[dinahbrand]

I have enough trouble trying to deal with humans. I can't see any intelligent life form wanting to deal with humans unless they have to.

I also think our view of what is life is limited. We only know what we know and existence may be on many levels. At one time the concept of electricity was beyond us. If other life forms exist I don't think they are in the forms we are capable of imagining or understanding at this time.

 

[skiny]

I have enough trouble trying to deal with humans. I can't see any intelligent life form wanting to deal with humans unless they have to.

I also think our view of what is life is limited. We only know what we know and existence may be on many levels. At one time the concept of electricity was beyond us. If other life forms exist I don't think they are in the forms we are capable of imagining or understanding at this time.

The problem with life that may exist extra-dimensionally or outside of our universe is that it's something we have no way to study. We can't even study other dimensions or universes themselves much less anything that might live within it. That's assuming these things even exist which we have no way of proving scientifically at the moment.

Aside from that, life most likely does exist elsewhere in the universe. Our home is probably a lot more special than we are. In that I mean that it's probably a lot more rare in the universe to find planets that are able to sustain life than it is for life to exist on planets that can sustain it. That sounds strange but when you think about the incredible complexity of systems, events and components that make the planet Earth so "life friendly" it's almost unbelievable. I say almost because when you keep in mind that we live in a universe with billions of galaxies, each with billions of solar systems, what has happened here in all likelihood should have happened somewhere and may have happened somewhere else.

I could go into a long drawn out and probably boring story about how this solar system formed from a gas cloud of dusty matter but we'll skip all of that since it's happening all over the universe all the time. That in itself is far from special but the third planet from the star in this particular solar system got amazingly lucky more times than most people realize.

The Earth just happens to sit far enough away from the sun that all the water hasn't evaporated and the green house effect that Venus suffers isn't making our planet a rather uncomfortable 400 - 500 degrees Celsius and it's close enough that it's not just a big ball of ice. Now I've already mentioned numerous things that this planet has going for it either earlier in this thread or in another such as the benefit if Jupiter blocking most of the space garbage that would be hitting us a thousand times as often, liquid water, the perfect size to keep our atmosphere in place without being too big causing us to be another gas giant, plate tectonics maintaining to some degree the temperature of the water and I think I didn't mention the moon. The moon's gravitational pull on Earth (yes, it works both ways) doesn't just effect the tides. It keeps the planet from teetering on it's axis. If not for the moon which is huge by most moon standards the environment on the Earth would be rapidly changing on a regular basis by incredible amounts. The Earth's axis still wobbles but without the moon it could tip as much as 90 degrees and back again over relatively short periods of time plunging the Earth into ice ages and then massive arid droughts on a regular basis. Not very life friendly.

Ok, I'm rambling again. I'll get to my point.

I said life is probably more common on planets that can sustain it than planets that can sustain life are in the universe. The reason I say that is because that life as we know it is made of the most common elements in the universe. Humans are mostly made of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen (water) and nitrogen. There are many other elements that make up the rest but all life that we know of are built from these things and these things just happen to be the most abundant elements in the entire universe.

If life is special I don't think it's because it's hard to make. Apparently all the parts you need are pretty much everywhere in the universe in almost unlimited supply. If life is special in this universe it's because it needs a place to happen and we just happen to be sitting on the best place that we have found so far in the entire universe for it to happen. But we haven't explored much of the universe yet. So we're still looking.

 

[Seventh777]

I'm fine with all of this. I'm all for doing as much research as possible on every single little thing in the universe. The more research we do the more we understand and that is what science is all about. What I'm not fine with is people giving credit for anything on this planet or in this universe to extraterrestrials simply because we don't know how it happened or why it happens. This kind of science is exactly how the sun became a religious entity. This is why we sacrificed animals to guarantee healthy crops. This is why we thought lightning came from an angry God.

We live in a universe where things that we didn't understand have been happening naturally through the laws of physics and cosmology since long before life even existed. We understand much of what happens today through science because science refuses to just accept that things can't happen naturally. We understand that the sun is a burning ball of mostly hydrogen. We understand that solar activity, the earth's temperature, air currents, evaporation, cloud formation and so on and so on causes the weather to behave the way it does and killing a goat changes nothing. We understand how electricity works and why there is a transfer of energy from either clouds or the atmosphere due electrostatic imbalances.

Now some might say once you understand this the magic is gone but I believe the more you understand the more magic it becomes. I find it much more interesting that the universe can do all of this naturally without the help of any guiding hands and even if we knew for a fact that not even one crop circle that has ever been found was man made I would still refuse to hand the credit for this over to some alien race just because I don't know how it happened yet. If there are really abnormalities in these plants that's great. It's one more mystery for us to solve. So lets stop making incredible assumptions that are impossible for us to prove and do some real science and figure out exactly why.

If the history of science has taught us anything, it's taught us that there is a reasonable explanation for everything in the universe and we have a pretty good track record for explaining it. We don't have an explanation for all of it yet but given enough time we will. And so far none of our explanations required acts of God or help from extraterrestrials. Nature is a wonderfully simple and incredibly complex thing that I'm happy to say will continue to baffle and enlighten us for many, many years to come.

Excellent analogy, if I were a teacher I would A+ the fuck out of it , I know you are a 100% science type of guy, I am also upto a certain extent, science in it`s many shapes and forms has answered so many questions, but, i`m also a staunch believer in the process of elimination, which helps (most times) for those answers where science fears to tread, there is no greater question on this planet that remains as of yet, unanswered, a few theories have come and gone, and that question - the origin of man, the latest update to Darwin`s theory needs peer reviewing imho .......



Cheers,

Was a pleasure debating with you .