Casino Complaint wolffs16 VS Betatcasino

[dunover]

I am by no means taking sides in any way, however I don't believe Igor should have posted what he did until whatever investigation has been completed and verifiable proof of criminal activity has taken place, there are better ways instead of airing all this dirty laundry.

I understand that opinion, but the OP initiated the mud-slinging, and continued to do so despite being advised to follow the PAB procedure. To try and use negative posting as leverage against Bet-at is not becoming of a complainant with a high level of integrity is it? The fact that Igor informed us of this, albeit reluctantly, after a barrage of accusations from the OP is indicative of his right to reply and self-defence.
Further to that, it stops the torch-and-pitchfork brigade making fools of themselves by blindly boo-hissing the casino while bereft of the facts.

 

[me_and_ed]

I understand that opinion, but the OP initiated the mud-slinging, and continued to do so despite being advised to follow the PAB procedure. To try and use negative posting as leverage against Bet-at is not becoming of a complainant with a high level of integrity is it? The fact that Igor informed us of this, albeit reluctantly, after a barrage of accusations from the OP is indicative of his right to reply and self-defence.
Further to that, it stops the torch-and-pitchfork brigade making fools of themselves by blindly boo-hissing the casino while bereft of the facts.

Fair enough, I am still of the ilk that the casino operator should be "the bigger man" and not get into the mud slinging and accusations, the success rate of exposing fraudsters has been quite high here and eventually the truth will come out, I get where Igor is coming from but still in my opinion it's bad optics.......makes for a compelling read though

 

[naththo]

Geeze, please stop posting! Just follow the PAB rules.

I see you keep blaming Bet At for nothing. I see that Rep told you the real good reason why your account is closed/locked. Its a very serious matter not to be taken lightly. They report it to Federal Police in your local country about this matter and start the investigation from there. They most likely will come to your home to door knock on you. You have been busted already. They have enough evidence. They cannot spill evidence here. It is all part of confidential and only can be used by authority and investigation teams. They will speak out the partial results later on in here once all evidence are built and is enough to pursue the charges against you. You need to realise that. So please zip up and just let the PAB deal with it and let the law enforcement deal with it and refrain from posting in here as I am telling you to because you refuse to listen to Max and Casinomeister or anyone else here.

Oh another thing is, VPN is never okay to access most casino. Native IP is required. They can tell if you are using VPN they raise suspicious that you are doing something really illegal. They are right, I could smell something fishy either.

And your payment evasion is not cool. If they ask for your identification then you must produce it straight away. Its the law.

Anyway hope this investigation will clear it all up the confusion and make everything more sense and straight fact to it. Evidence is a hard fact and I believe the evidence.

Good luck with PAB, most likely scenario, PAB will fail for sure I think? Yes? And have fun with the law enforcement soon.

 

[The Dude]

Iqor has a bad temper, if u say something bad about his casino he will do anything in his power to take you down.
(https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/betat-casino-is-accredited-discussion.58721/)

...

That's such a load of bollocks that I'm not even going to justify this with a rebuttal except to say you are walking on very thin ice here.

If it's true that you are participating in fraudulent activity, we will encourage the casino to take both criminal and civil action against you. You are in the Netherlands and the casino is licensed in the EU. I hope you are able to read the writing on the wall - if you know what I mean.

If you are good to go, then great. But if not, bad news for you.

 

[Mozaik]

Me being a Dutch native myself, and having bought Paysafecards to fund my casino account probably more than 100 times - I doubt any unit here in the Netherlands will investigate a case any further for the sum of 300 euros. There at least has to be some serious money involved I'd say.

When I buy a Paysafecard, once I've submitted the codes online and my account has been properly updated, then I throw the receipts in the bin right away. So I don't find it really strange that the OP doesn't have them at hand anymore. If Bet-At asked him to prove the origin of the funds, perhaps it would be a smart thing to do for the OP to contact the point-of-sale if they possibly could locate those receipts in their system?

I agree the use of a VPN is a very strange, but if Bet-At didn't have a problem with it before depositing or forbids the use in their T&C's, then IMO it can't be brought forward as an valid argument right now. I know several people who download music, movies etc. on the net by using a VPN.

As far the game play concerned, over the past 10 years that I've been gambling I've seen odd behavior of players many times. With players betting on 35 of the 37 roulette numbers in a land-based casino for example or just small betting black or red, and me wondering what they are even in there for (they obviously aren't going to win much). But if the OP employed minimal risks strategy during multiple deposits, and cashed out exactly when the playthrough of 1 time has been reached, then I totally understand why Bet-At finds this very odd behavior.

But even then I would say, yes the above smells very fishy, however I don't find it enough to prove a player is laundering money. If Bet-At doesn't like the way this player is playing, I'd say it's fair to return his deposits and NOT accept him no longer in their casino.

However, perhaps Bet-At knows more than we all know, I don't expect Bet-At who gained a good reputation to just accuse any player of laundering money.

 

[sandtag]

ok i beleive you,i am newbie at casinos and you are obviously more experienced,you all praise this casino so there is no doubt that this is honest one,but humor me and please tell me what real proofs since this came public we have that user was doing money laundering? i beleive in casino discresion,but if only proof for money laundering this casino has that this player had a strategy,or small advantage to win and call it money laundering then me personaly will avoid such casino,everyone knows that roulette is unbeatable in the long run and there is no strategy that could work,so based on this we must presume he was only lucky and not actually using any working strategy

again i am not english native speaker so maybe i skip something in posts here,also i am not taking any sides,i wouldnt even respond if i didnt seen post from rep here that disturbed me,i had to say this,i hope i wont get banned here,ilike this forum

I just look at the hard facts (I´ve been a member at betat since they started up almost):
*Ive had withdrawals of 2000-1000Euros (a few) from 20-50 euro deposits, all paid hasslefree overnight.
*Betats support is very helpfull and is among the few who actually share some real information with the player**Note, A lot of the other casinos would just ban the player and walk away**
*Read the betat thread for more references then mine, compare it with threads of other casinos

Now with this in mind my honest opinion seeing how betat always pays speedy and hasselfree, would they really go rogue over 300€ (or was it 170€?), or are they concerned that the OP is a fraudster using their services to get a legitmate way of laundering his money, which might be very bad for them?

Lets look at OPs hardfacts:
*Plays with VPN
*Plays with an annonymous payment method
*Has no receipt for the origin of his payments
*Plays a rather low exposure strategy (read exposure not risk)
*Uses stacked deposits (why not deposit the full 300?)
*withdraws to another payment method (withdrew to neteller, why didnt he deposit with neteller? Why take the time to buy paysafe cards, when u can do a 1min transaction?)
*Submitted a legit id (Now this is the only thing that makes me think the OP might not be a fraudster, but then again Op could have just submitted them to get rid of the problem)

Now do you see why people are so reluctant to OP´s story? The facts just speak for themselves.

 

[Mozaik]

I just look at the hard facts (I´ve been a member at betat since they started up almost):
*Ive had withdrawals of 2000-1000Euros (a few) from 20-50 euro deposits, all paid hasslefree overnight.
*Betats support is very helpfull and is among the few who actually share some real information with the player**Note, A lot of the other casinos would just ban the player and walk away**
*Read the betat thread for more references then mine, compare it with threads of other casinos

Now with this in mind my honest opinion seeing how betat always pays speedy and hasselfree, would they really go rogue over 300€ (or was it 170€?), or are they concerned that the OP is a fraudster using their services to get a legitmate way of laundering his money, which might be very bad for them?

Lets look at OPs hardfacts:
*Plays with VPN
*Plays with an annonymous payment method
*Has no receipt for the origin of his payments
*Plays a rather low exposure strategy (read exposure not risk)
*Uses stacked deposits (why not deposit the full 300?)
*withdraws to another payment method (withdrew to neteller, why didnt he deposit with neteller? Why take the time to buy paysafe cards, when u can do a 1min transaction?)
*Submitted a legit id (Now this is the only thing that makes me think the OP might not be a fraudster, but then again Op could have just submitted them to get rid of the problem)

Now do you see why people are so reluctant to OP´s story? The facts just speak for themselves.

With all due respect, but If I would be accused of being a fraudster I would probably be guilty of many of the so called "Hardfacts" you present (except VPN & Low Exposure/risk strategy).

*Plays with an anonymous payment method - If an online casino offers this option, then anyone should be able to use it hassle free.

*Has no receipt for the origin of his payments - The receipts basically have no value, once you've uploaded your account successfully. Why keep them? I throw them in the bin right away. It only proves to be useful in cases like this.

*Uses stacked deposits (why not deposit the full 300?) - Paysafecard vouchers aren't being sold in The Netherlands for the total sum of 300 euros. In fact, I believe they even removed 250 euro vouchers after some major fraud. So if you want to buy a Paysafecard for 300 euros, you have to buy 3 of 100 euros. That means submitting the code 3 times, hence by it's a stacked deposit.

*withdraws to another payment method (withdrew to neteller, why didnt he deposit with neteller? Why take the time to buy paysafe cards, when u can do a 1min transaction?) - The reason for this is because if you upload money to Neteller with paysafecard, you have to pay a fee which is 9.9%. You can imagine how big of a hit that has on anyone's bankroll if depositing this way. Some people just like to have cash money around, and deposit through channels like vouchers. Since cashing out through Paysafecard is not possible, you have no other option to withdraw to another channel like a wire or Neteller. I would choose Neteller too, since it's the quickest option.

IMO as long online casinos offer the "Anonymous" payment methods, there will always be some risks involved of players laundering money. Why? Simply because of the fact it's almost impossible to prove the origin of the funds. What if OP had those receipts of those bought Paysafecards? It won't prove how the player got that money, all it does prove is that he bought those Paysafecards himself.

 

[Igor82]

i tell you what, when this is done and settled and there is no PAB-relevant gag order; let's explore some legal regulations that are set upon operators. Some really good questions got raised here that stretch beyond this case and are relevant to massively jumping IP's due to raise in mobile product use, VPN's, Proxy's and AML (anti money laundering) requirements that are set in stone...

None of these are trade secrets and can easily be researched but players wouldn't be exposed to them on day to day basis as they would never really have any need to. It would be really good to do chat about it openly after the dust settles.

after this PAB, i'll personally open a thread on the subject in a more appropriate environment and we take a look together at why some of the seemingly "Senseless" requirements you face are in fact day-to-day necessities in certain situations - as much as its allowed to discus that without educating the casually browsing bad guy.

i know we shouldn't post but i wanted to say that some of the members posts and questions are really valid and sensible and in different set of circumstances i'd answer them to offer some clarity - so the offer stands when the environment is right.

 

[Nifty29]

With all due respect, but If I would be accused of being a fraudster I would probably be guilty of many of the so called "Hardfacts" you present (except VPN & Low Exposure/risk strategy).

*Plays with an anonymous payment method - If an online casino offers this option, then anyone should be able to use it hassle free.

*Has no receipt for the origin of his payments - The receipts basically have no value, once you've uploaded your account successfully. Why keep them? I throw them in the bin right away. It only proves to be useful in cases like this.

*Uses stacked deposits (why not deposit the full 300?) - Paysafecard vouchers aren't being sold in The Netherlands for the total sum of 300 euros. In fact, I believe they even removed 250 euro vouchers after some major fraud. So if you want to buy a Paysafecard for 300 euros, you have to buy 3 of 100 euros. That means submitting the code 3 times, hence by it's a stacked deposit.

*withdraws to another payment method (withdrew to neteller, why didnt he deposit with neteller? Why take the time to buy paysafe cards, when u can do a 1min transaction?) - The reason for this is because if you upload money to Neteller with paysafecard, you have to pay a fee which is 9.9%. You can imagine how big of a hit that has on anyone's bankroll if depositing this way. Some people just like to have cash money around, and deposit through channels like vouchers. Since cashing out through Paysafecard is not possible, you have no other option to withdraw to another channel like a wire or Neteller. I would choose Neteller too, since it's the quickest option.

IMO as long online casinos offer the "Anonymous" payment methods, there will always be some risks involved of players laundering money. Why? Simply because of the fact it's almost impossible to prove the origin of the funds. What if OP had those receipts of those bought Paysafecards? It won't prove how the player got that money, all it does prove is that he bought those Paysafecards himself.

Whilst some of these points are reasonable, it's clear that the player has been accused based on several issues.

You did mention this:

except VPN & Low Exposure/risk strategy).

...that's a pretty big exception right there. In fact, without them, we may not even be having this discussion....which is kinda my point i.e. it appears to be more about what they did AFTER they deposited. As you said, you do several of those things listed and you are good to go, as presumably you don't play very low risk at a minimum level and cashout ASAP.

 

[chuchu59]

i tell you what, when this is done and settled and there is no PAB-relevant gag order; let's explore some legal regulations that are set upon operators. Some really good questions got raised here that stretch beyond this case and are relevant to massively jumping IP's due to raise in mobile product use, VPN's, Proxy's and AML (anti money laundering) requirements that are set in stone...

None of these are trade secrets and can easily be researched but players wouldn't be exposed to them on day to day basis as they would never really have any need to. It would be really good to do chat about it openly after the dust settles.

after this PAB, i'll personally open a thread on the subject in a more appropriate environment and we take a look together at why some of the seemingly "Senseless" requirements you face are in fact day-to-day necessities in certain situations - as much as its allowed to discus that without educating the casually browsing bad guy.

i know we shouldn't post but i wanted to say that some of the members posts and questions are really valid and sensible and in different set of circumstances i'd answer them to offer some clarity - so the offer stands when the environment is right.

Change your avatar Igor. You are accused of having a bad temper so next time you will be accused of unleashing the dogs on him.

 

[Igor82]

Change your avatar Igor.

NEVER!!!

 

[BETAT]

 

[Jasminebed]

Nobody asked for my two cents, but I will offer it anyways.

The OP informed bet-at they use VPN prior to depositing as I understand. If you don't like players to use it, don't allow it. Many casinos expressly forbid it in terms. If a player is using a VPN, look at things for them, it's very easy to download one you don't want in error, and I spent hours clearing one from my machine.

Set your software to not allow deposits when you have a balance if you don't want players to stack deposits. Allow them with a manual override if you like. Prepaid credit cards, UKash vouchers and apparently these Paysafe cards are sometimes only available in certain denominations. I've had to purchase two $50 cards (and pay higher fees) just because my store was out of $100 ones.

A PAB has been launched, and I know Igor has been around the block.

But the OP's withdrawal is less than his deposits, I think I would have just paid him and closed his account if I strongly SUSPECTED fraud. If you think cards were stolen, that's a different kettle of fish from money laundering.

I've read here of players trying to shift money (not quite the same thing as money laundering) from one method to another to avoid fees with low risk betting. Even if all a player is is not profitable, casinos totally reserve the right to terminate any account.

Withdrawing to a different method? I don't think you can withdraw to Paysafe.

But I suspect that casino operators talk with each other (perhaps quite recently), and Bet-at is not the first job Igor has had.

I doubt I could drum up any police interest here for a suspected fraud or money laundering that was minus $180.

No matter how strong your suspicions are, you need PROOF to withhold winnings, especially if they are less than the amount deposited.

I'm glad the OP PAB'd, I don't think maxd reaches his decisions without proof.

But Bet-at or any casino is free to terminate a business relationship with any customer that they don't owe money to.

 

[Igor82]

some of what you post is correct, some isn't. max has received a reply from us with full case details and all conditions that bind our behaviour. We'll respect his decision.

Only after it's reached can we discuss this in earnest. Until then much of what is said is merely speculative

 

[Mozaik]

Whilst some of these points are reasonable, it's clear that the player has been accused based on several issues.

You did mention this:

except VPN & Low Exposure/risk strategy).

...that's a pretty big exception right there. In fact, without them, we may not even be having this discussion....which is kinda my point i.e. it appears to be more about what they did AFTER they deposited. As you said, you do several of those things listed and you are good to go, as presumably you don't play very low risk at a minimum level and cashout ASAP.

I agree with you the use of a VPN would in most cases imply that the user (OP in this case), would have something to hide. But like Jasmine mentioned, he did apparently ask for Bet-At's permission to see if that forms a problem. I think it would be better if Bet-At just follows the protocol of many other online casinos, by simply not allowing the use of a VPN by adding this into the terms & conditions.

While I find low risk strategies quite odd, and I simply will never get it why people play that way (except for the use of money laundering and get max value from it), since you will never win too much. There are players who play that way, I've seen them in land based casinos and I guess it wouldn't be different for online casinos. We have to keep in mind that there are several types of gamblers, I'm some one who plays high risk and goes broke pretty most of the time, by upping bets and doing all that crazy stuff.

But there are also conservative players who barely take any risk and bet on black/red - odd/even - 1-18/19-36 all day - they won't gain much nor lose too much and it's boring as hell. I've looked at the spreadsheet and I see bets of 10, 20 and even 50 euros. The lowest bet would be 3.33% of his bankroll I'm guessing, which is not unusual and OP said he wagered his deposits not once but 4 times.

I understand it completely though that all the mentioned facts raise some eyebrows at Bet-At's security team. 300 euros is peanuts for any online casino, and they wouldn't accuse just any player without a very good and valid reason. I think they acted with their best intentions to detect money laundering signals and counter this where possible, but judging from all info available in this thread perhaps it's just a mad coincidence.

But I'm guessing there is probably some information we're not aware off just like Igor mentioned, we will just have to wait until the PAB ends before some things could be clarified.

 

[chuchu59]

Nobody asked for my two cents, but I will offer it anyways.

The OP informed bet-at they use VPN prior to depositing as I understand. If you don't like players to use it, don't allow it. Many casinos expressly forbid it in terms. If a player is using a VPN, look at things for them, it's very easy to download one you don't want in error, and I spent hours clearing one from my machine.

Set your software to not allow deposits when you have a balance if you don't want players to stack deposits. Allow them with a manual override if you like. Prepaid credit cards, UKash vouchers and apparently these Paysafe cards are sometimes only available in certain denominations. I've had to purchase two $50 cards (and pay higher fees) just because my store was out of $100 ones.

A PAB has been launched, and I know Igor has been around the block.

But the OP's withdrawal is less than his deposits, I think I would have just paid him and closed his account if I strongly SUSPECTED fraud. If you think cards were stolen, that's a different kettle of fish from money laundering.

I've read here of players trying to shift money (not quite the same thing as money laundering) from one method to another to avoid fees with low risk betting. Even if all a player is is not profitable, casinos totally reserve the right to terminate any account.

Withdrawing to a different method? I don't think you can withdraw to Paysafe.

But I suspect that casino operators talk with each other (perhaps quite recently), and Bet-at is not the first job Igor has had.

I doubt I could drum up any police interest here for a suspected fraud or money laundering that was minus $180.

No matter how strong your suspicions are, you need PROOF to withhold winnings, especially if they are less than the amount deposited.

I'm glad the OP PAB'd, I don't think maxd reaches his decisions without proof.

But Bet-at or any casino is free to terminate a business relationship with any customer that they don't owe money to.

To me that's worth at least 8 cents Jazzy. Its always good to have alternative opinions backed by sound rationale. Though I don't like the OP and do feel he is hiding something all the points you advanced are valid and Betat should take note of them lest there be recurrences of the same nature.

 

[gagamel]

Money laundering

I live in Switzerland and we know this problem very well.

If you make for example 25000 Euros per month with illegal deals you can`t walk to your bank and deposit the whole amount. The bank will inform the tax office and/ or the police.
I would do the following. Deposit 300 Euros twice a week in 10 different casinos for example.
I change cash into something like "virtual money" (Paysafecard). Then I transfer this money to an online casino. I play the money with low risk bets and witthdraw this money to an e-wallet. And from this wallet to an account in Nigeria, Solomon Islands or somewhere else. Now I can buy with this money whatever I want.

I don`t want to say that the OP does money laundering but this story is dubious as hell.

 

[maxd]

Igor has replied in detail to the PAB which has shown that the OP has repeatedly lied and/or distorted the facts to suit his claims, been up to some seriously hinky business and has no right to expect that the casino, or us for that matter, should condone such behaviour: the PAB is toast and the OP along with it.

 

[Mozaik]

I live in Switzerland and we know this problem very well.

If you make for example 25000 Euros per month with illegal deals you can`t walk to your bank and deposit the whole amount. The bank will inform the tax office and/ or the police.
I would do the following. Deposit 300 Euros twice a week in 10 different casinos for example.
I change cash into something like "virtual money" (Paysafecard). Then I transfer this money to an online casino. I play the money with low risk bets and witthdraw this money to an e-wallet. And from this wallet to an account in Nigeria, Solomon Islands or somewhere else. Now I can buy with this money whatever I want.

I don`t want to say that the OP does money laundering but this story is dubious as hell.

I guess we now all can say he's guilty of just doing that. Although I would love to hear what he lied about from Max, but I of course trust his judgment on this matter and understand details can't be shared to school fraudsters. However, I do find it healthy to have discussions like this. Wouldn't it be any different for a fraudster to deposit small amounts at several online casinos while taking advantage of a neutral or +EV bonus and play slots at 1% of their bankroll (quite common)?

I think they would end up with just the same amounts as the low risk roulette or blackjack double up bets, while perhaps the radar of the security department not detecting anything unusual. For the ones that do get caught, there are probably much more who get away with it. I like the simple concepts of Paysafecards or Ukash, but it's a fact that they are very popular among fraudsters. I see them as the base of a conflict of interest, since on one hand online casinos love to accept these deposits if it improves their cash flow but on the other hand an undeniable and significant risk is attached to this payment method.

Perhaps they should just be banned all together, and deposits only be made possible where prior identification has taken place like Instant banking, wire transfers, eWallets etc.

 

[sparkz]

I live in Switzerland and we know this problem very well.

If you make for example 25000 Euros per month with illegal deals you can`t walk to your bank and deposit the whole amount. The bank will inform the tax office and/ or the police.
I would do the following. Deposit 300 Euros twice a week in 10 different casinos for example.
I change cash into something like "virtual money" (Paysafecard). Then I transfer this money to an online casino. I play the money with low risk bets and witthdraw this money to an e-wallet. And from this wallet to an account in Nigeria, Solomon Islands or somewhere else. Now I can buy with this money whatever I want.

I don`t want to say that the OP does money laundering but this story is dubious as hell.

Yeah it doesn't surprise me at all if it happens a lot.

Here in the UK, recent news articles have been published about money laundering in the betting offices.

MR Drug dealer ends up with piles of cash in profit from his deal's that he can't put into the bank without suspicion. Equally he can't have it in his possession because if caught it will be more evidence against him.

He walks into a betting office, loads the machine with cash and plays lowest stake for an hour. After he walks away regardless of profit or a loss and cashes in the balance. He now can do whatever he likes with the cash as he has a receipt to prove the money came from the bookies.... not dodgy dealings.



More on topic and as with always... Bet-at are 1 of the best casino's online. Igor has always been trust worthy and is an expert with things casino related. All along I was never in doubt that he had 100% certainty for his actions. Like look at things a while back when he had suspicion about another player here. He was quite certain of things, but wasn't 100% so they player got paid

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yeah it doesn't surprise me at all if it happens a lot.

Here in the UK, recent news articles have been published about money laundering in the betting offices.

MR Drug dealer ends up with piles of cash in profit from his deal's that he can't put into the bank without suspicion. Equally he can't have it in his possession because if caught it will be more evidence against him.

He walks into a betting office, loads the machine with cash and plays lowest stake for an hour. After he walks away regardless of profit or a loss and cashes in the balance. He now can do whatever he likes with the cash as he has a receipt to prove the money came from the bookies.... not dodgy dealings.


More on topic and as with always... Bet-at are 1 of the best casino's online. Igor has always been trust worthy and is an expert with things casino related. All along I was never in doubt that he had 100% certainty for his actions. Like look at things a while back when he had suspicion about another player here. He was quite certain of things, but wasn't 100% so they player got paid

It can be done with relatively small amounts per person. An even better place would be the fruit machines on motorway services. Change dirty money for £1 coins and play them in machine. This at least provides an excuse for having loads of £1 coins (I hit the jackpot/streak/etc).

Now, there are machines that change the won £1 coins back to cash. No play is necessary. Change for coins at one services, and change the coins back to cash at another (to ensure one doesn't get one's dirty notes back again). A little play would be wise as CCTV coverage is there to prevent underage gambling, but could also be used to track an individual throughout several sessions where they changed notes for coins, and back again, without much indication of intent to play the fruities.

Unlike the betting office, no one person, nor even premises, will see the whole pattern, not even on CCTV.

I have always been surprised that casinos accept UKash, as they rely solely on the shop keeper at the point of purchase to validate the source of the money. They don't, they just check your ID and have to record who bought the UKash. They don't validate the ID against a database to check for inconsistencies, and a half decent forgery will fool them. one can also make small purchases of UKash in a large number of shops, and again no one shop will see the bigger picture of thousands of pounds in cash being converted into Ukash.

I am sure it can also be done with gift cards, phone top up vouchers, etc, which are then sold for less than face value "down the pub" or by another grey market method.

The authorities really can't stop it without placing such harsh restrictions on things like UKash, gift cards, etc that the businesses will object and lobby the measures out of existence.

 

[The Dude]

I've just gone through the casino's resopnse to the PAB and can concur that the casino has done the right thing, and that this appears to be a case of money laundering. From what I understand, the Cyber Crime unit of the Maltese government is getting involved which I'm sure will be contacting the OP's local police department.

The bottom line is you don't f*** around anymore. Money laundering as well as player fraud and chargebacks are cyber crimes. Act like a crook, get treated like one.

 

[aceking123]

well its nice to know things come out in the wash & this is great news for betat , didnt think these guys had anything to hide & great work cm & maxd for sorting out conclusion very quickly nice job!

 

[bigjohn]

Kudos to the CM team and all the casinos that are willing to work with them.

 

[dunover]

Nobody asked for my two cents, but I will offer it anyways.

The OP informed bet-at they use VPN prior to depositing as I understand. If you don't like players to use it, don't allow it. Many casinos expressly forbid it in terms. If a player is using a VPN, look at things for them, it's very easy to download one you don't want in error, and I spent hours clearing one from my machine.

Set your software to not allow deposits when you have a balance if you don't want players to stack deposits. Allow them with a manual override if you like. Prepaid credit cards, UKash vouchers and apparently these Paysafe cards are sometimes only available in certain denominations. I've had to purchase two $50 cards (and pay higher fees) just because my store was out of $100 ones.

A PAB has been launched, and I know Igor has been around the block.

But the OP's withdrawal is less than his deposits, I think I would have just paid him and closed his account if I strongly SUSPECTED fraud. If you think cards were stolen, that's a different kettle of fish from money laundering.

I've read here of players trying to shift money (not quite the same thing as money laundering) from one method to another to avoid fees with low risk betting. Even if all a player is is not profitable, casinos totally reserve the right to terminate any account.

Withdrawing to a different method? I don't think you can withdraw to Paysafe.

But I suspect that casino operators talk with each other (perhaps quite recently), and Bet-at is not the first job Igor has had.

I doubt I could drum up any police interest here for a suspected fraud or money laundering that was minus $180.

No matter how strong your suspicions are, you need PROOF to withhold winnings, especially if they are less than the amount deposited.

I'm glad the OP PAB'd, I don't think maxd reaches his decisions without proof.

But Bet-at or any casino is free to terminate a business relationship with any customer that they don't owe money to.

Unfortunately that is the catastrophic mistake you've made in an otherwise good post, for two reasons:

Firstly in the world of organized crime, 'cleaning' cash is costly. Pimps, drug-dealers etc. expect from 10 to 30% of their 'capital' of dirty cash to be lost to middlemen or launderers in commission. If it means the remaining 70-90% is then OK to purchase houses and expensive cars then that's the price they expect to pay - it's normal and the authorities know it.
On a small scale Vinyl is correct - you can feed notes in to FOBTs in bookies here, then claim the winnings on a ticket from the machine and ask the bookies for a cheque in payment. This costs a percentage and can only be done with relatively small amounts without suspicion.

A criminal being able to load cash-paid vouchers into an online casino, play through ONCE on a 96% RTP game like roulette and being able to legitimize the withdrawn cash to a bank account or webwallet is a f***ing bargain in money laundering terms. Online casinos would be the logical, safest and cheapest money laundering tool on earth if they weren't alert to the issue.

Secondly, this was the smallish 'entry amount' to test the water; should Bet-at have authenticated the cash by not being alert to the OP's crooked behaviour, I guarantee you one thing - the OP would have started a chain of increased deposits and withdrawals as he became a 'trusted' player and a high-roller. Then he'd have his cohorts doing it too. They'd have gladly paid Bet-at their 4-5% take on the games to maintain the front and have a reliable cheap laundering chain.

Well spotted Bet-at and good riddance to another scammer that's come on here setting our BS-Meters to red and duly been shot down.

 

[sparkz]

you can feed notes in to FOBTs in bookies here, then claim the winnings on a ticket from the machine and ask the bookies for a cheque in payment. This costs a percentage and can only be done with relatively small amounts without suspicion.

*Cough*

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*Cough*

"the industry regulator, fined Coral bookmakers £90,000 in profits it made from one drug dealer who had laundered almost £1m in its shops"

If the figure rings true... "almost £1m" I doubt he was laundering just £100 on each visit. If the "almost £1m" figure is say £800,000, that would mean if he was laundering low amounts like £100 a time, he would have to make 8000 visits to bookies to launder that much. As it refer's to Coral being fined, he must of done this in just 1 shop (or 2 if a town has 2 coral's).

For that figure to exist, he must of laundered quite high amounts at a time without suspicion. If it was small amounts like £100 or even £200 a time, he would of needed to visit the bookies every single day for 10 or 20 years.

There could be speculation though regarding the staff. Were they aware of his intentions, but because he cashed out at a loss most of the time, they couldn't care less as the company was making money? Then again, why would staff care if the company was making money? Since they just go there, work the shift and take the same wages home each month.


As for online... It seems more risky to try and launder money at online casino's. Yes the odds could indeed be better, but surely depositing via 1 method and trying to withdraw via another will always bring up red flags? Plus online, things like account details, ip, name, address are logged so it gives someone less chance of getting away with it.

 

[sigothx1]

Wow, Read the entire thread, As soon as i saw "vs betat" i knew i was in for a treat, wasn't dissapointed! They are easily the most reliable, friendly, active, helpful and fair casino ive ever used, and i used countless, Id rate them my number 1 casino for the reasons mentioned previous, id even trust them more than the "mega" casinos with trusted named like ladbrokes and betfair, If i was a money launder person the one place id avoid calling out is betat haha.