Withdrawal confiscated due to self-exclusion at another casino

[tommouk]

Hi all,

I joined a new casino Tuesday night and had never played there before (no names yet)

I made a deposit and won a few £'s and withdrew it.

I received an email saying 'Confirmation of Withdrawal‏' - This email serves to confirm that your cash withdrawal as recorded below has progressed through the casino pending-cash cycle and is currently being processed by our e-cash company.

I went on tonight to play some more but my account is locked - this is apparently due to me self-excluding at another casino - the helpdesk said 'Once you exclude yourself from a casino, you can not play at any online casino. Once you exclude at one casino, you are on a list called the CND list, which prohibits you from playing at any online casino. There is nothing that we can do about this, as all online casino's are obligated to following these rules and regulations'

Also my withdrawal has been confiscated.

Is this right?

Any help appreciated, Steve.

 

[jelsmith]

That doesnt sound right. If you were playing within a group you should not have even been allowed to register let alone sign up and deposit. I would contact the rep if they have one here and if that isnt successful I would PAB.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi all,

I joined a new casino Tuesday night and had never played there before (no names yet)

I made a deposit and won a few £'s and withdrew it.

I received an email saying 'Confirmation of Withdrawal‏' - This email serves to confirm that your cash withdrawal as recorded below has progressed through the casino pending-cash cycle and is currently being processed by our e-cash company.

I went on tonight to play some more but my account is locked - this is apparently due to me self-excluding at another casino - the helpdesk said 'Once you exclude yourself from a casino, you can not play at any online casino. Once you exclude at one casino, you are on a list called the CND list, which prohibits you from playing at any online casino. There is nothing that we can do about this, as all online casino's are obligated to following these rules and regulations'

Also my withdrawal has been confiscated.

Is this right?

Any help appreciated, Steve.

Bollocks.

Online casinos are regulated by numerous different jurisdictions, and NO-ONE can "obligate" an online casino to do ANYTHING, sometimes not even their own jurisdiction without a fight.

There may be an industry wide MORAL obligation to ensure problem gamblers cannot simply cave in to willpower, and play elsewhere. HOWEVER, this is SELECTIVE application of this CND list. It is a list of players who should not be allowed to PLAY, and NOT a list of players who should not be allowed to WIN. Your account should have been compared with this CND list as soon as you registered it, and locked right there and then. ANY BS story from the casino of "can't be done at this stage" is a load of BS, it CAN be done, and is simply a matter of using a computer program to compare the details of a new player with the CND list, something that doesn't take a computer very long to do.

All of this ONLY applies if the earlier self exclusion was because of "gambling issues". Many players close accounts for different reasons, perhaps because they don't like the level of service they have received.

 

[rainmaker]

This is not a good way of doing business. As jelsmith is saying, if you exclude yourself then you are not permitted to later register and use an account (for a period of time, or for all time) .

If you where permitted at another casino to register and play, then of course you must be permitted to also do a withdrawal.

good luck.

 

[Pulver]

I would suggest that you PAB and let Max take a look at it.

It doesn't sound right in my ears, that's for sure.

 

[raj]

This concerns me.....I have self excluded from 1 or 2 casinos in the past....usually after a bad run and deciding to take a 6 month break for a while from that particular venue. I had no idea that I was excluding with any casino other than the one I had requested.
Perhaps someone in the industry could clarify. You are certainly not told this when requesting a short exclusion.
Raj

 

[rainmaker]

By the way, does anybody know anything about this "CND list" ? I have never heard of it. I tried to google it, but found nothing of interest.

 

[raj]

By the way, does anybody know anything about this "CND list" ? I have never heard of it. I tried to google it, but found nothing of interest.

I thought it was something to do with nukes, chaining yourself to fences at Greenham common, not washing properly and going on noisy protests

 

[rainmaker]

I thought it was something to do with nukes, chaining yourself to fences at Greenham common, not washing properly and going on noisy protests

hehe...case closed

"The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) is an anti-nuclear organisation that advocates unilateral nuclear disarmament by the United Kingdom..."

 

[rainmaker]

(Sorry for posting twice, my computer...well something wrong happened)

 

[Seventh777]

I`m positive that this has happened to someone before, and iirc it was a Rival casino, and i`m 100% sure it didn`t happen like thus.....`Owing to your self exclusion from one of our sister casinos, here are your recent deposits that you totally lost, at our casino, sorry for the misunderstanding`.

 

[tommouk]

As an update - the casino is no longer saying my account was closed because I self excluded somewhere else.

Now they are saying my account is closed due to fraudulent activity!

This is a joke!

Steve.

 

[Nifty29]

As an update - the casino is no longer saying my account was closed because I self excluded somewhere else.

Now they are saying my account is closed due to fraudulent activity!

This is a joke!

Steve.

Time to PAB?

 

[tommouk]

It's a 'No Can Do' - does that mean I am stuffed?

 

[Lucky Loser]

I dont understand.

There are lots of people trying to rip off internet casinos. Are there good reasons for them to have concerns about your play ? Like chargeback history etc .....

 

[Nifty29]

It's a 'No Can Do' - does that mean I am stuffed?

Yes I'm afraid so.

Are you sure you have never made a chargeback?

 

[tommouk]

No - I mean in the Casinomeister list of MG casinos it is listed as 'No Can Do'

What's a chargeback?

 

[Nifty29]

No - I mean in the Casinomeister list of MG casinos it is listed as 'No Can Do'

What's a chargeback?

Where you reverse a credit card depost or deny final payment to the casino.

Multiple accounts are also considered fraud which includes those in different names on the same computer.

 

[tommouk]

No haven't done that then - to the best of my knowledge anyway!

What's my next step?

 

[Rhyzz]

First off, operators are obliged by the licensing jurisdiction to close any account that has been self excluded elsewhere if they have that information. They always state that they will do 'everything within their ability' to prevent you from opening an account, but lets face facts, if the person with a problem can't control themselves, they will always find a way to beat the system, so they have noone to blame but themselves.

Not sure on the legalities of paying profits though. They wouldn't be obliged to refund you so should surely pay you, although what you have done annoys me if i'm honest. Self exclusion is for if you have an issue controlling your play, not because you simply want to avoid that Casino in future, you can close your account and ask for it to never be reopened if you want to do that...and if you do have an issue controlling your play, you shouldn't be opening accounts with other operators. www.gamcare.com if you need help, or contact any good operator, they'll help you get the information and support you may need.

 

[tommouk]

Hi Rhyzz,

The casino has changed their mind and decided that the account is not locked because of self-exclusion from another casino but is now locked due to fraudulent activites on my account.

Not sure where I go from here?

 

[mattsgame]

Hi Rhyzz,

The casino has changed their mind and decided that the account is not locked because of self-exclusion from another casino but is now locked due to fraudulent activites on my account.

Not sure where I go from here?

You can try contacting there license jurisdiction, and file a dispute.

Because I'm not aware of the casino in question I will list them her for your reference.

Be aware though that some of these jurisdiction are about as useful as a wet paper bag.

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Hope you get your problem resolved,

Cheers matt

 

[rainmaker]

You can try contacting there license jurisdiction, and file a dispute.

Because I'm not aware of the casino in question I will list them her for your reference.

Be aware though that some of these jurisdiction are about as useful as a wet paper bag.

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Hope you get your problem resolved,

Cheers matt

LGA (Malta Lotteries and Gaming Authority) <------ wet paper bag

 

[tommouk]

It's Kahnawake - are they wet too?

 

[mattsgame]

It's Kahnawake - are they wet too?

Not lately, lately they have been pretty good with disputes and taking there licensing seriously.

So its worth filing a complaint with them and hopefully you find out whats going on!

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

P.S its not hard to figure out the casino group now, which I'm a little surprised at TBH.

 

[vinylweatherman]

As an update - the casino is no longer saying my account was closed because I self excluded somewhere else.

Now they are saying my account is closed due to fraudulent activity!

This is a joke!

Steve.

Well, clearly they told you a big pack of LIES before.

It's a 'No Can Do' - does that mean I am stuffed?

No, it just means they don't deal with Max or Bryan. This leaves you free to "name & shame".

With more details, you would be able to get better advice from the forum, and since they are "no can do", there is no PAB in progress to harm.

I note you have had a string of problems with other casinos since May 2009. This should tell you that something isn't right. What have you learned from these previous issues?

 

[tommouk]

I have posted a complaint through the Kahnawake Gaming Commission website if that all comes to naught I will give more info. Apparently it is beyond the casino's control as they 'operate within the confines of outsourced professionals who monitor accounts and provide recommendations. Unfortunately as a result of a decision which is made by our Processing company based on their findings, we are unable to proceed with the processing of your winnings. Your deposits are being refunded as well.'

This is a brand new Visa Debit card so the problem must be with me (or them) but they wont give out any reasons at all...

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have posted a complaint through the Kahnawake Gaming Commission website if that all comes to naught I will give more info. Apparently it is beyond the casino's control as they 'operate within the confines of outsourced professionals who monitor accounts and provide recommendations. Unfortunately as a result of a decision which is made by our Processing company based on their findings, we are unable to proceed with the processing of your winnings. Your deposits are being refunded as well.'

This is a brand new Visa Debit card so the problem must be with me (or them) but they wont give out any reasons at all...

This does not get away from the fact that they LIED at first about it being down to a self exclusion.

If Kahnawake decide in your favour, they WILL have to pay up, although they will most likely refuse further business from you.

If the card is in your name, this would not have been the problem.

 

[Nifty29]

I have a feeling there are some things you are not telling us tommouk.

Your history tells me something isn't right.

I can't say I've known the same person to continually have ID rejected and withdrawals denied without even attempting a PAB (for previous case).

I apologise if I am wrong, but in my experience where there is smoke.....

 

[Rhyzz]

If you've been flagged as high risk (chargebacks in the past) then they don't have to allow you to play but they should pay any winnings. They probably just want to balance the account and close it, which is understandable if your account has been flagged.

 

[tommouk]

Nifty,

Yes I have had my share of problems with casinos, IDs and payouts in the past partly due to my naiveity but they have all been sorted without the need to PAB.

Hopefully this can be sorted too.

 

[tommouk]

And the answer is...

"The processor, acting on behalf of ***** identified your account as part of a fraud group. As a result the operator closed your account, your deposits were refunded and any winnings confiscated. We cannot provide you with more indepth information or reasons for the actions taken due to security."

 

[Rhyzz]

In other words you're linked to fraudsters and they don't have to pay you anything. If they have the evidence you won't be seeing any winnings any time soon I'm afraid!

 

[ksech]

At least they refunded your deposits, they could have kept those too...

 

[PokingStars]

Could you ask them why your name is linked to fraudsters? Unless you are indeed a fraudster of course.

 

[Tengil]

So this is either Villento or Rich Reels. Not the first time their processor gives headache to a player.

Hopefully Kahnawake will help.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Nifty,

Yes I have had my share of problems with casinos, IDs and payouts in the past partly due to my naiveity but they have all been sorted without the need to PAB.

Hopefully this can be sorted too.

Not necessarily, the earlier problems may have left behind a "footprint", and this has come back to haunt you now.

WHY did you have all those problems in the past, and what have you NOW learned from the experience in your future dealings?

And the answer is...

"The processor, acting on behalf of ***** identified your account as part of a fraud group. As a result the operator closed your account, your deposits were refunded and any winnings confiscated. We cannot provide you with more indepth information or reasons for the actions taken due to security."

You now have what you need to take this to Kahnawake. It is now worth doing this, since Kahnawake are more responsive, and will take a fresh look at this case. If Kahnawake feels the evidence is not good enough to call you a fraudster, they will make the casino pay up.

 

[tommouk]

That quote was the response from Kahnawake - they have closed their investigation on the matter...

 

[tommouk]

Could you ask them why your name is linked to fraudsters? Unless you are indeed a fraudster of course.

I will try but I think I will get the 'sorry for security purposes we can't tell you this' answer...

 

[vinylweatherman]

That quote was the response from Kahnawake - they have closed their investigation on the matter...

I see.

Unfortunately, this is a case of "guilty until proved innocent".

Whatever you were doing, it has been classed as "fraud", and the Kahnawake have agreed.

The only way to take this further is to resort to the law.

One possibilty is to use the "Data protection act" to see, and correct, any data held about you.

Many of the third party companies casinos use are based in the EU, if not the UK.

It is the PROCESSOR that has made this determination, based on data it has received and processed. If based in the EU, serve it with a data disclosure notice (£10) which forces it to give you a copy of all the data held on you. If it is wrong, you can have it corrected. If there are mistakes in data held about you, this can invalidate the determination that you are a fraud. You could then sue the processor for damages over it's use of incorrect data.

As well as this, it would be worth checking your credit files, as mistakes here can be fed into the anti-fraud systems used by the processors.

Your previous issues are telling you that something isn't right somewhere, and you need to find the root cause, rather than relying on getting the problem "sorted" at the level of individual casinos.

I personally can't really see how a group of friends playing, and sharing tactics, is FRAUD. The games are all random, and play is against the house, rather than other players. This means there can be no "collusion" that would have any effect on the OUTCOMES of the bets, nor could money be transferred from one player to another. POKER is a different matter, and friends playing together CAN indeed collude, and defraud other players.

FRAUD requires deception, which would entail you having lied about something to the casino, perhaps using false information, or using a friend's details to play a second account at the same casino.

 

[Tengil]

Well then you have to avoid everything related to DataCash in the future. AIM listed as DataCash Group PLC. Thats if its Villento or RR you played at.

 

[Nifty29]

I understand that mistakes can happen on both sides, like a player being incorrectly tagged as a fraud - we have seen it happen here on the very odd occasion.

However, when it keeps happening at different casinos then something isn't right.

If Kahnawhacky won't help you then the evidence must be pretty convincing.