Winward Casino complaint.

[MissMD]

Revenue Giants

Rich Casino

Thanks for the link, I see now we switched to a different Brand.
I didn't see a clear issue there why was it on the rogue list. It only had some insult about the name, but I see it was there since 2010 which was the previous owners of Rich. Since then many things have changed, so I will speak to CM to see how we can fix it. I would like however to mention that only RichCasino is on my program. Revenue Giants does not promote the other two casinos on this link. Also, there is no relation to Rich Reels as mentioned on this thread either.

What are your casino deposit bonus rules?

First the player reads this:

Keep in mind that your free bonus money can be used to play Roulette and Blackjack games.

Then this:
Ccasino wagers made on Roulette and any type of Blackjack will not qualify towards meeting wagering requirements. If you play our Roulette, Craps and Blackjack casino games while qualifying for your free bonus our system will identify this as a forfeit of the free bonus


Further down:

-Casino bonus money cannot be used to play any type of blackjack, roulette or craps game. Our casino system is designed to not let you play any type of free bonus balance on these casino games.

My own guess is that the T&C:s are mixing deposit bonuses with "no deposit bonuses". It´s not clear for players.

There are two different bonuses:

1. Free Bonus = No Deposit Bonus
2. Casino Bonus = Deposit Bonus

I will ask Rich to make it clear.

The wagering from the above two types of bonuses cannot be counted when requesting a payout.
The system may or may not allow you to play those games (Roulette, Craps and Blackjack casino games) BUT if you play those games with the bonuses it wont count towards the wagering criteria.

Most important is that you cannot read that you can request not to have the bonus attached to your deposit, which means that the trap is still there!

Players at RichCasino may ask not to receive bonuses as well. I'm asking them to add it to their T&C so it is 100% clear to all.

 

[MissMD]

Reply

This one yet again is down to incompetent CS telling a player a load of bullshit about having to wager some more. They even quoted an amount for this extra wagering.

The first bit does seem to reflect a processor limit of $1000 per week, but the CS went on to say that there was the specific amount of $159.40 left to wager before the other $1000 could be withdrawn. Given that this was a mistake, where did the CS agent get this figure of $159.40 from, after all, it cannot have been on the system as this was an incorrect explanation to start with, and the system would have said NO further wagering was needed. A good CS agent would have realised, as clearly they DID when telling the player they have a $1000 per week limit, that all the player need do is wait another week, and then withdraw the remaining $1000. The explanation doesn't seem to add up Was it a "trick" to induce the player to play a bit more on the other $1000 rather than sit it out for a week and then withdraw?.

The information above is incorrect, if was given by a CS agent it doesn't change the fact that it is still incorrect. Please show me a screen shot, chat script or email where I can show Winward the CS agent gave this wrong info.

I will emphasis again, wagering cannot be divided per payout limit, it makes no sense. If the wagering was not met then the first payout wont be approved at the first place. If it was met and the payout was divided due to limitation then second payment would went out with no additional wagering.

 

[Nifty29]

The information above is incorrect, if was given by a CS agent it doesn't change the fact that it is still incorrect. Please show me a screen shot, chat script or email where I can show Winward the CS agent gave this wrong info.

I will emphasis again, wagering cannot be divided per payout limit, it makes no sense. If the wagering was not met then the first payout wont be approved at the first place. If it was met and the payout was divided due to limitation then second payment would went out with no additional wagering.

With all due respect, this makes absolutely no sense at all.

It might be a better idea to have someone who is a native English speaker to be the rep, or at least have them proof read for you. It's nothing personal, but reps need to be able to communicate clearly and accurately to assist players properly.

 

[kavaman]

What changes i would like to see in the terms is to take out this dreadfull 3 deposit:s before withdrawal, because it makes no sense at all. If the casino wishes to protect it self against fraud etc, they should ask for more documents.

It seems to me that some kind of change has been made to the terms, i think its even worse now.

Here are a few things that seem odd.
"The online casino industry is aware of the free bonus abuse phenomenon and is in the process of establishing a black list for casino players categorized under these criteria. "

"However, the maximum withdrawal amount will be determined based on the player's VIP level.
* VIP Bronze - Withdrawal Limits $200-$500; Regular withdrawal limit is $200. Complete a total of 5 deposits or more throughout the week and your limit will be increased to $500.
* VIP Silver -- Withdrawal limits $500 - $1000; Regular withdrawal limit is $500. Complete a total of 5 deposits or more throughout the week and your withdrawal limit will be increased to $1000.
* VIP Gold -- Withdrawal limit up to $2500. "

Jesus. 200 paid per week. What casino is this? They do not like winners. Here is a scenario. I win 2500$ after depositing 13 times. Im entitled to be paid 1000$ a week. I request, and get the first 1000$. Then i still have 1500$ remaining, but the next week i have not done those 13 deposits, so my withdrawal limit is taken to back to 200$, so now i wait for 7 more weeks to get paid the rest.

Really seems im right, because this is what i read
"- Casino players with no deposits made within the last 10 days are subject to free bonus money rules and free bonus payout rules."

 

[Nifty29]

What changes i would like to see in the terms is to take out this dreadfull 3 deposit:s before withdrawal, because it makes no sense at all. If the casino wishes to protect it self against fraud etc, they should ask for more documents.

It seems to me that some kind of change has been made to the terms, i think its even worse now.

Here are a few things that seem odd.
"The online casino industry is aware of the free bonus abuse phenomenon and is in the process of establishing a black list for casino players categorized under these criteria. "

"However, the maximum withdrawal amount will be determined based on the player's VIP level.
* VIP Bronze - Withdrawal Limits $200-$500; Regular withdrawal limit is $200. Complete a total of 5 deposits or more throughout the week and your limit will be increased to $500.
* VIP Silver -- Withdrawal limits $500 - $1000; Regular withdrawal limit is $500. Complete a total of 5 deposits or more throughout the week and your withdrawal limit will be increased to $1000.
* VIP Gold -- Withdrawal limit up to $2500. "

Jesus. 200 paid per week. What casino is this? They do not like winners. Here is a scenario. I win 2500$ after depositing 13 times. Im entitled to be paid 1000$ a week. I request, and get the first 1000$. Then i still have 1500$ remaining, but the next week i have not done those 13 deposits, so my withdrawal limit is taken to back to 200$, so now i wait for 7 more weeks to get paid the rest.

Really seems im right, because this is what i read
"- Casino players with no deposits made within the last 10 days are subject to free bonus money rules and free bonus payout rules."

Wow, that is mindblowingly pathetic isn't it?

IMO it is rogue behaviour.

Anybody who deposits here has some kangaroos loose in the top paddock.

 

[maphesto]

Players at RichCasino may ask not to receive bonuses as well. I'm asking them to add it to their T&C so it is 100% clear to all.

Well! Let´s switch brand again then. It seems like ALL sites ran by Winward group are affected.

I found this at Vics Bingo:

All deposits made in Vics Bingo are credited with deposit bonuses. The deposit bonus varies depending on the number of deposits made to the account, the amount of each deposit and the specials specified in either our online bingo promotions page, the current page you are reading and/or by Management. Deposit Bonuses are part of the Vics Bingo Policy and the player cannot resign to them or to the wagering requirements derived from them.

This was that proof I needed! You say that players can ask for the bonus to be removed, well...

Lets continue, this is from Instant Bingo. Different words, but it´s pretty clear that you can´t get the deposit bonus to be removed.

When you make a deposit on Instant Bingo, your account will be credited with a deposit bonus. The deposit bonus depends on the number of deposits you made to your account, on the amount of money you deposited each time and on the specials specified in either our online bingo schedule page , the current page you are reading and/or by Management. Deposit Bonuses are part of the Instant Bingo Policy and the player cannot decline them or the wagering requirements that derive from them.

You cannot decline them!!!

Are you trying to fool the readers/members here at Casinomeisters forum that players can have the bonus boney removed just to make your brands to look less rogue? I have showed you the printed!

These are rogue T&C:s.

 

[Nifty29]

Where's Vinylweatherman when you need a "GOTCHA"

 

[vinylweatherman]

Where's Vinylweatherman when you need a "GOTCHA"

When the hole is so deep that you can't climb out, what's the point of any further digging


This is an alliance between Winward and Top Game - it could hardly get any worse

These is now a set of terms that requires a continuing series of pointless deposits, not just the three initially mentioned. Each deposit presents an opportunity to screw the player.

What could happen is predictable.


Player wins big, so keeps deposting 5 times a week just so that he can receive it at $1000 per week instead of $200. That's 5 chances to slip in a bonus and stall the process, and an opportunity to pull the 10x max cashout for deposits under $249 simply by interpreting the rule to apply to only the latest deposit, even if this is into a non-zero balance. To avoid this, the 5 deposits would have to be $250 each, BUT can only be withdrawn at the rate of $1000 a week. Players will NEVER be able to withdraw any substantial wins under this set of rules.

 

[MissMD]

Revenue Giants

maphesto, Vics Bingo and Instant Bingo have different rules than Winward and Rich. Please do not mix the brands.
On my previous post I did not refer to all the brands we promote as having the exact same rules.

Besides, some of the comments here are are very offensive. This is not the way to welcome representative who tries to hear your voice and help.

Therefore, I would just like to finish by saying that the actual two issues on this thread of: Demian39 and met1959 were both solved.

Demian39: "Hello Malci, good news, as of today the funds were in my account. Its been a long road to get this but ultimately Winward finally came through on their end. Thanks Malci for all your help.

Sincerely,"

met1959:
"It came this am missmd"

Which is the reason I came here in the first place- to help.

If anyone has an individual case with any of the brands we promote at Revenue Giants, I'll be very happy to assist privately.
please PM or email me at malci (at) revenuegiants.com

Also, if you wish to discuss or suggest improvement, you are welcome to contact me at any time.

Have a nice week,
Malci

 

[vinylweatherman]

maphesto, Vics Bingo and Instant Bingo have different rules than Winward and Rich. Please do not mix the brands.
On my previous post I did not refer to all the brands we promote as having the exact same rules.

Besides, some of the comments here are are very offensive. This is not the way to welcome representative who tries to hear your voice and help.

Therefore, I would just like to finish by saying that the actual two issues on this thread of: Demian39 and met1959 were both solved.

Demian39: "Hello Malci, good news, as of today the funds were in my account. Its been a long road to get this but ultimately Winward finally came through on their end. Thanks Malci for all your help.

Sincerely,"

met1959:
"It came this am missmd"

Which is the reason I came here in the first place- to help.

If anyone has an individual case with any of the brands we promote at Revenue Giants, I'll be very happy to assist privately.
please PM or email me at malci (at) revenuegiants.com

Also, if you wish to discuss or suggest improvement, you are welcome to contact me at any time.

Have a nice week,
Malci

NO brands should REQUIRE players to take bonuses and get tied into convoluted rules. If the product cannot be fair if players just play with their own money, there has to be something wrong with the way it operates.

By your own admission therefore, in these brands the bonuses are a trap by DESIGN, and are therefore an attempt to screw the player dressed up as a "perk".

ALL brands need to ditch the current rules and start again from scratch. This time, making sure the rules are fair, consistent, and easy to understand.

Top Game has such a bad reputation that fairness has to be SEEN, not taken on trust. Top Game operators have to build trust from the bottom up, and ensure that players are treated fairly and consistently. After a year or two of this, Top Game can grow to be as trusted as any other US facing software brand. An additional benefit would be the steady removal of Top Game operations from the various blacklists, and hence an increase in their promotion by the more reputable affiliates.

 

[Casinomeister]

Hi all,

Just a polite reminder to keep the debate civil. Malci is here to assist whoever needs assisting. Don't beat her up. She's a really nice person, and if you've had the pleasure of meeting her, I'm sure you would change your tone. In other words, don't get personal - keep it professional and balanced. Thank you.

Rich casino was a sister casino to Aztecasino (which is in the rogue pit). The property was sold to the Winward group, so it's been removed from the rogue pit. Aztecasino is still there.

 

[KasinoKing]

ALL brands need to ditch the current rules and start again from scratch. This time, making sure the rules are fair, consistent, and easy to understand.

Totally agree - that would by far be the best solution.

KK

 

[kavaman]

I hear that malci is trying to help, and maybe some comments here have been a bit out of line, but the problem still remains that winward has some pretty seriously predatory terms. Have to deposit 10 times a week to get paid 1000$ a week. Atleast thats how i interpret the t&c. I hope voice here can be heard and the whole rules can be rewritten in a better way. Making players deposit several times each week, and then have cs take out the automatic bonus on each deposit out of the players account is really not the really nice way to treat players.

 

[MissMD]

Revenue Giants

Thank you Casinomeister for your kind post.:notworthy

Guys, I am looking into every single comment and suggestion on this thread and I already reported all to the specific brands.

To rewrite the entire T&C I honestly don't think will happen, but I can assure you that all your comments were heard and I was promised that they will make a change.

I cannot guarantee exactly what will be changed, but I will update you shortly with more details.

Regards, Malci

 

[kavaman]

Thanks malci. Keep us posted.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thank you Casinomeister for your kind post.:notworthy

Guys, I am looking into every single comment and suggestion on this thread and I already reported all to the specific brands.

To rewrite the entire T&C I honestly don't think will happen, but I can assure you that all your comments were heard and I was promised that they will make a change.

I cannot guarantee exactly what will be changed, but I will update you shortly with more details.

Regards, Malci

Well, at least proof read any changes as a whole with the terms, rather than on their own, so that you don't end up with contradictions between the unchanged and changed terms, which often happens when there is a piecemeal approach to changing terms and conditions.

 

[Seventh777]

On the 21st feb 2012 I deposit $100 get the boner

Sounds like my kind of bonus .

 

[pmutts]

The Shame about TopGame!

I have stated this before in other threads. It is truly ashamed that TopGame only does business with crooks at worst--I guess rogues are generally crooked and have no ethical code whatsoever.

I really like some of their slots and the platform has so much potential. Their Video Poker would be okay if it did not auto-hold cards seemingly at random. For example, it may hold the ACE of spades for you but not hold the Jack of Spades, or it may hold the ace and not hold a pair of jacks! Of course you can click on the cards to hold them the way you want but it definitely make it much easier for a skilled player to make a mistake (I have made several). For the completely inexperienced player, this would seemingly be nothing more than a trap to have the player play at 100% house advantage. I asked the Reps and Rome, Diamond VIP, and Rialto if there was any way to disable this feature and the answer was no.

Before I realized playing at TopGame sites (at least for me) was always a very poor choice. I realize there may be a few operators out there who are not complete scumbags but why should I take the chance.

The standard terms about limiting your win to 10x any deposit under $249 boggles my mind. I consider myself to be a "high roller" but I would NEVER play under those terms.

The software seems to be relatively fair and random. I have had some great runs there. It is getting paid that proves difficult to impossible.

I don't get it. I don't understand why anyone would play there and I don't understand why they, the TopGame people and their licensees won't just do business on the up and up. Don't they understand that they could make a killing in the US market if they would just operate in a professional and ethical way?

 

[MissMD]

Revenue Giants Reply

Hello Eveybody,

Just a quick post to say I'm still on it and will update you shortly.

pmutts, I am sorry you feel this way about TopGame, I can tell you that since we started promoting TopGame's sites we are very pleased with their high level of games and professionalism. Both affiliates and players expressed their satisfaction about the sites and the games (at least those we promote not sure about the rest ;-) )

I also have good relation with TopGame they are a great group of dedicated and creative people. Therefore, I took the liberty to share your feedback with them and they told me they will check into it. I'll update you on it as well.

Hope you all had a nice Easter/Passover.

Regards, Malci

 

[Diane]

Hello Eveybody,

Just a quick post to say I'm still on it and will update you shortly.

pmutts, I am sorry you feel this way about TopGame, I can tell you that since we started promoting TopGame's sites we are very pleased with their high level of games and professionalism. Both affiliates and players expressed their satisfaction about the sites and the games (at least those we promote not sure about the rest ;-) )

I also have good relation with TopGame they are a great group of dedicated and creative people. Therefore, I took the liberty to share your feedback with them and they told me they will check into it. I'll update you on it as well.

Hope you all had a nice Easter/Passover.

Regards, Malci

Malci -
Thanks for being the intermediary as needed. I do agree with pmutts on the Video Poker. There is no rhyme or reason to the cards that are 'auto-held" for you. Players must be verrrrrrrry careful to check every single time. It does appear to be deceitful - the way it is right now.

Diane

 

[Nifty29]

Hello Eveybody,

Just a quick post to say I'm still on it and will update you shortly.

pmutts, I am sorry you feel this way about TopGame, I can tell you that since we started promoting TopGame's sites we are very pleased with their high level of games and professionalism. Both affiliates and players expressed their satisfaction about the sites and the games (at least those we promote not sure about the rest ;-) )

I also have good relation with TopGame they are a great group of dedicated and creative people. Therefore, I took the liberty to share your feedback with them and they told me they will check into it. I'll update you on it as well.

Hope you all had a nice Easter/Passover.

Regards, Malci

Missmd,

With all due respect, this is not the kind of forum where one can gild the lily.

Everyone knows here that Top Game/Rome are NOT a great group. The forum is full of complaints from DISsatisfied players who have been ripped off or slow paid to the point of almost giving up.

Top Game will NEVER EVER be in the top 10 providers.....for many reasons, not the least of which are:

1. Cheating video poker autoplay (nothing you or anyone can say will convince any intelligent person that holding incorrect cards is not cheating.....it must be deliberate, as it could have been changed in seconds but hasn't...it brings in too much money after all)

2. Max cashout restrictions on BONUS FREE deposits....this has to be the most offensive anti-player terms I've seen in 15 years. Any affiliate that promotes any casino that employs these tactics should be named and shamed and be placed on a rogue affiliate list (which is long overdue IMO).

I'll say it again....any member who plays at these casinos is taking a HUGE risk.

 

[MissMD]

Revenue Giants

Thank you Diane for letting me know about it and for being so kind, I promise to update you on their reply.

Nifty29,

In your post you mentioned "TopGame/ Rome", I don't promote Rome so I don't think its ethical or relevant to discuss a competitor here on this thread. However, I do work with TopGame for few years now and I'm proud to promote their brands. I can tell you that they are a decent group of people and they work very hard on developing exciting games and top notch casino software. Indeed one of the best 10 providers on my opinion and I promoted many software providers in the past 6 years as an affiliate and an affiliate manager.

Regarding your comment about " Cheating video poker autoplay (nothing you or anyone can say will convince any intelligent person that holding incorrect cards is not cheating.....it must be deliberate, as it could have been changed in seconds but hasn't...it brings in too much money after all)"

An intelligent person shall understand that a casino software add auto hold only when the system recognize a good hand. It should be clear that TopGame developed an auto hold card to give the player the best possible chance where he can maximize his profit and eventually win. It recommend the cards with most likelihood to win. In fact I am not aware of any casino software who will hold wrong cards to confuse the player and to make him lose on purpose.

I do understand pmutts's concerns that some professional players wish not to have the option for the system to hold any cards for them. And to be honest I quite agree with this concern as well. There should be an option either to use auto hold or not.

And regarding the max cash out restrictions, isn't it the brand who decides it and not the software provider?

Cheers, Malci

 

[Nifty29]

Thank you Diane for letting me know about it and for being so kind, I promise to update you on their reply.

Nifty29,

In your post you mentioned "TopGame/ Rome", I don't promote Rome so I don't think its ethical or relevant to discuss a competitor here on this thread. However, I do work with TopGame for few years now and I'm proud to promote their brands. I can tell you that they are a decent group of people and they work very hard on developing exciting games and top notch casino software. Indeed one of the best 10 providers on my opinion and I promoted many software providers in the past 6 years as an affiliate and an affiliate manager.

Regarding your comment about " Cheating video poker autoplay (nothing you or anyone can say will convince any intelligent person that holding incorrect cards is not cheating.....it must be deliberate, as it could have been changed in seconds but hasn't...it brings in too much money after all)"

An intelligent person shall understand that a casino software add auto hold only when the system recognize a good hand. It should be clear that TopGame developed an auto hold card to give the player the best possible chance where he can maximize his profit and eventually win. It recommend the cards with most likelihood to win. In fact I am not aware of any casino software who will hold wrong cards to confuse the player and to make him lose on purpose.

I do understand pmutts's concerns that some professional players wish not to have the option for the system to hold any cards for them. And to be honest I quite agree with this concern as well. There should be an option either to use auto hold or not.

And regarding the max cash out restrictions, isn't it the brand who decides it and not the software provider?

Cheers, Malci

Thankyou for your response Malci.

I know you're doing your best to paint Top Game in a good light, but the "we are only the software provider" excuse really is getting old. Everyone knows that it is Top Game that designs the games, and hence the autohold. Members here aren't saying they don't want autohold per se, just that the one you employ CHEATS.....there's no other way to describe an autohold that doesn't hold the best cards, which is not always a pair or 3oak in deuces wild for example. I'll give TG the benefit of the doubt that they didn't realize it was happening before....but they sure do NOW, and the complete failure to address it, and the denial that the problem even exists, is just another red flag to add to dozens of others.

The max cashout seems to apply to all TG casinos I have seen.....a bit of a coincidence don't you think? Again, using the provider "defense" is a cop out....TG could stamp out this disgraceful confiscation of bonus-free winnings tomorrow if they chose to, but it would also mean potentially less profit for the operators, which means your software is less attractive.

It seems your heart is in the right place, but you're among some very savvy players here who can see through BS in a heartbeat.

TG might be in your top ten, but they have zero chance of ever becoming a major player whilst these shady practices are allowed to continue. Personally, I dont care how hard the TG people work, given that it seems all their time is spent developing new ways to fleece players.

 

[max1mike]

took me less than 5 minutes to hit this auto-hold beauty...

 

[maphesto]

Malci!

Are your Revenue Giants brands connected to goldencasinoclub, gocasinoclub or crazyslotsclub? Those former bcp-casinos I mean.