William Hill - What customer service!

[bandana]

Hi,
I don't know if you can help me, I am writing this as I am desperate and don't know where else to go with it.
In June of this year I joined William Hill Casino online.At the time I had just moved and in retrospect should never have joined the casino, I was suffering from anxiety and depression which had been long running and had been signed off by the doctor for 2 years as ill and unfit for work.
After being with William Hill for 3 and a half weeks I received a bank statement that showed that just over 45,000 pounds had gone from my account to William Hill. This was a complete shock to say the least, especially as the casino stated on their FAQ's page that they set deposit limits of 1,000 per week. I was in such a state my partner took over and wrote the following to the casino:
**************************************************
RE: ACCOUNT :

User Name: *********
William Hill Account Number: CP0********

I am writing on behalf of my partner who joined your casino approx. 5 weeks ago. She opened an account with her switch card and started to play your online games. She had read different terms and conditions and had read on your

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that you have deposit limits of 1,000 gbp per week. In 3 and a half weeks approx. 45,000 gbp has gone from her bank account to William hill.She has not cashed out a penny. If I had known she was doing this I would have stopped her. She is currently under the doctor and has been for the past 2 years suffering from depression and anxiety.She seemed to be getting slightly better, now she is suicidal.She had just sold her flat and that money was all she had in the world.
I have tried to download her statements online from the casino, but it only shows a couple of dates, and in all honesty the figures seem to be all over the place, I cannot make head nor tail of them.
I would like to know how this can happen when you do clearly state on that page that limits are imposed. I would also like to know if there is anything that could be done given this situation, to get if not all , some of her money back. I am taking her to see a solicitor, but obviously wanted to contact you in the first instance for your comments.
A prompt reply would be appreciated as I am very concerned about this and in turn how its affecting her mental state.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
L.Bayliss
**************************************************
That e mail was sent on the 8th of August 2003. There was no reply to that mail until the 18th August 2003 and then it was only an acknowledgment mail and was as follows :
**************************************************
Dear Mr. Bayliss,
Your query was forwarded to our Casino Director and the Manager of Ecashdirect
Customer Care last week.
They are in discussion with our Legal Team and should be in touch with you in the next few days.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce
**************************************************
In those 10 days that went by, my partner phoned William Hill, and wrote many more e mails asking for a reply. Writing to them can be a problem as some of the e mail addresses that they list on their site do not work. On the 26th of August Mr. Sadler did reply with the following:
**************************************************
Dear Mr. Bayliss,
Thank you for your e-mail.
I have been in lengthy discussions regarding this situation with my colleagues both at William Hill and Ecash and I will be in touch when they have concluded.
I will e-mail you on Thursday when I return to the office.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
**************************************************
On the 29th of August he wrote the following:
**************************************************
Dear Mr. Bayliss,
As stated before, I have been in lengthy discussions with my
colleagues regarding this situation.
Having examined the circumstances I regret that we will not
be returning the stakes as you have requested. All transactions
were accepted in good faith and as far as we are concerned are
legitimate. Had your partner won we would have honored the bets.
Although the FAQ's on the Casino splashpage

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were inadvertently displaying the previous depositing details, all
other parts of the site displayed the updated correct version.
The revised deposit limits were displayed correctly within the actual
Casino application where all transactions take place. These limits are
guidelines with the option for individual customers to set their own
limits
As you have previously noted, you are no longer able to access your
partner's account. It is our policy to close the accounts of problem
gamblers as soon as we detect (or are informed) that there is a
problem; this is why you have no further access to the account.
Our sites are designed as enjoyable, easy and affordable entertainment
and are treated as such by the vast majority of customers. We recommend
that you seek help from the following Organisation:

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In your previous correspondence you stated that there was a discrepancy
in the account statement. If you send me proof of this I will arrange
for the 60 to be reimbursed.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce

**************************************************
Since then many more e mails have gone backwards and forwards. My partner requested all of the transaction statements and game logs, for which we had to wait along time for, but they were sent eventually.The game logs and transaction statements have discrepancies and although Mr Sadler was told of this, nothing has been explained. Mr Sadler was asked who made the decision to not refund any money, how the decision was reached, why the page displaying the limits as incorrect, why on their code of ethics page they state that they are committed to detecting and stopping compulsive gambling and also why it states on their site that they only print true and accurate information, when they clearly do not.I also found a guy who is involved in the online casino industry who wanted to mediate for me as he felt that the whole situation was being dealt with so badly, this was the reply that eventually followed:
**************************************************
Dear ***********
Thank you for your e-mail.
As the Internet Customer Services Manager for William Hill I am empowered
to make decisions on behalf of the Company I represent.
The decision I made in this instance was made after extensive discussions
with my colleagues within the Company. The content of those discussions
is entirely confidential.
The decision not to return your stakes has now been made and there is no
reason for further discussion. I will not be negotiating with Mr Ma**** on a matter
which has already been resolved.
I am still awaiting the outcome of investigations by Ecash into your allegations of
an account discrepancy, I will be in touch in due course.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce

Apart from the fact that I am climbing the walls over this and am flat broke, and I mean flat broke, I do not want this happening to other people.I find it amazing that no one has even phoned me to discuss this, no one asked me for proof that I was ill or on medication and that I still am. I went to a solicitor who said that they would take the case but it would be hard as the casino side of William hill is based off shore and therefore falls under a different law to the UK. The page that displayed the limits got changed before they acknowledged my first e mail, but I have a print out of the page as it was, and of course it is dated.When you play online you are in a false world, I won't be doing it again, but I am sure there are people out there that will. They state that they are committed to stopping and detecting compulsive gambling but since changing the limit page, their new limits are set at 10,000 per day and 50,000 per week. If that's not out of control I don't know what is! It's very hard to write about this in its entirety.I have all correspondence sent and received from them and there is much more I could tell you, but this e mail is a outline as to what happened.My solicitor actually suggested the papers as he felt William Hill would not want adverse publicity.I have warned them that I would write to the tabloids and they just are not bothered by it, it seems. Can you help me?
My contact home number if you wanted to talk to me is ************.
Regards
****************



(Message edited by casinomeister on September 26, 2003)

 

[spearmaster]

Ouch.

If I were you I would take your solicitor's advice. The power of the media in an instance such is this is immeasurable - if you can clearly prove your circumstances William Hill will have a lot of explaining to do. While the online casino may not fall under UK law, the company in question is still registered in the UK and their bookmaking license could still possibly be jeopardized by an instance such as this.

However, I am not a solicitor/lawyer/attorney/legal advisor - thus what I say would not in itself be strong enough to act on and should not be considered as such.

You may want to print a copy of the new "limits" page as well. And of course, their other recommendation to contact Gamcare is also sound.

 

[spearmaster]

One other thing I want to point out, unfortunately in the casino's favor, which is that it is difficult under any circumstances for anyone to believe that you didn't know you were spending more than 1000 quid a week, even with possible anxiety and depression. A doctor would need to certify that this is indeed the case and that such a scenario could reasonably be possible.

 

[glodge]

Double Ouch.

Yes I agree with spear.

Take your solicitors advice, the power of the media is a strong persuader, Will Hill have way too much to lose.

I have also added info from

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which keeps caches on past web pages of site. You may find the following URL very useful

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And by entering the URL of WH faq URL came up with the following ( this page is date in Feb 2003 )

How much ECash Direct can I deposit to my William Hill Casino account each week by credit card?
New players can make initial deposits of up to:

1,000 without a PIN
1,500 with their temporary (e-mail delivered) PIN
For first 90 days established players may deposit up to 2,500 per week on receipt of their permanent 6-digit PIN.
After first 90 days established players may deposit up to 3,000 per week on receipt of their permanent 6-digit PIN.
After 1 year established players may deposit up to 3,500 per week on receipt of their permanent 6-digit PIN.
Weekly deposit limits are reset each Friday at 12:00am EST.

 

[jinnia]

glodge, spearmaster,

what is the currency value in US dollars of 45,000 pounds??

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

45,000.00 GBP = 74,368.43 USD

Conversion
1 GBP = 1.65263 USD 1 USD = 0.605095 GBP

 

[glodge]

Here is a good URL for currency conversions

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:yes:

 

[kniepm]

Bandana: I bet winning a few hundred quid would have snapped you out of your depression right quick.

Your whining that WH treated you like a responsible adult and let you wager your money is ridiculous. This is the type of attitude that encourages our legislatures (in the U.S.) to pass laws to prevent those of us who want to gamble online from doing so (among other laws passed "for our own good"). I, for one, would prefer not to be treated as an imbicile by my government. Let me make an adult's decisions and I'll bear the consequences in kind. If you cannot be responsible for your own actions, perhaps you should be institutionalized.

 

[glodge]

kniepm,

Although I understand and accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion and views, the line that you've taken here kniepm IMHO has about as much compassion as that of gnat!

Hope you very pleased with yourself & feeling like a real MAN now!

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

Thank you.

I admit, not too bright.. so one more question..

Players can make deposits of up to : .. this means....Euro ?

 

[glodge]

jinna,

= UK pounds

The symbol for Euro

= Euro



(Message edited by glodge on September 23, 2003)

 

[kniepm]

I just spoke with Nat -- he agrees with me, compassion is for the weak.

 

[jinnia]

Sounds like this kniepm has more of a problem than bandana.

Psychological problems can be worked on, but having a dead heart, a lost cause!

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

Thank you.

and thanks for thhe currency converter link.

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

yw

 

[linda7]

Kniepm:

How can you be so mean and cold hearted? It's people like you that breed hatred. You have made exactly SIX posts on this forum, each of which shows that you have the IQ of my sneaker. I try to never be malicious or uncompassionate to anyone...however, you have crossed the line.

 

[santo]

I'm pretty sure that the UK's repsonsible gaming legislator would have something to say.

Incidently, could you folks do something to stop your exchange rate. I lost 200 in 3 days just from money sitting in casino accounts whilst the dollar crashes and burns ;-)

 

[bandana]

Kniemp,
I hope you are never in this situation,you are ill,probally more so than me.This is not trivia,this is about really screwing with someones life-mine!I won't have anywhere to live if this is not sorted out in weeks rather than months.If you get off on that,then god help you.

 

[deeg]

I agree with what spearmaster said. If you can get a doctor to certify that you were indeed mentally incompetent during that time, you might have a chance.
Also, have you considered Gamblers Anonymous?

kniepm, while I agree that yes, we all assume responsibility when we gamble and the consequences it brings, there is also a more serious problem for people who gamble in an unstable state of mind.
Institutionalized, no. But to react in the cold, anal-retentive way you have when someone truly does need help such as this person, you my friend are the one who could use a help with your mental state as well. Say, perhaps a slap upside the head.

 

[jpm]

Wow, that is one sad tale. I feel sorry for you bandana. That being said, I have to agree with spear's second post. Its hard for me to believe you didn't know you were spending more than 1,000 per week. This I think will be the problem with trying to make a case against the casino for having inaccurate information on the website.

Simple division will show that you had to deposit on average 1,800 per DAY for the 3 1/2 weeks you played there in order to rack up 45,000 in deposits. If you do get to court with this issue, this I'm sure will be pointed out.

I think you're only course of action would be to say that they didn't detect that you were a 'problem gambler' as quickly as they should have (assuming that you kept depositing, playing & losing and repeating this cycle) and as a result, you lost more than you should have. This may have a chance of getting you perhaps 1/2 your loss back.

I truly do feel sorry for you, I think we all can relate to the experience of gambling beyond our means or intentions at one point in our gambling life. Unfortunately, I don't think that Will Hill should be obligated to return your losses either.

Now before you all jump all over me and call me heartless, consider this: If bandana had won a progressive during this 3.5 week spree, would they have notified the casino about the mental illness issue and told them to take the winnings back except for what was initially deposited? Probably not (and why would you??, that'd be kinda dumb!). Or even worse, if Will Hill had somehow discovered this illness after the win, and declared all play null & void and returned all deposits and then closed the account, what do you think the result would have been? The message boards would go berserk and Will Hill would soon become more hated than the Virtual Casino group and probably have to close the online casino.

Bandana, please get yourself into a compulsive gamblers help group as soon as you can. Also, have your partner notify as many of the casino groups as possible to not allow you to open an account at any of their casions so you won't be able to play even if you do get tempted again. Send emails to e-cash, proccyber, playtec, etc., that will cover a good chunk of casinos out there. Also, until this is under control you should give up any credit/debit cards you have so it will be even more difficult to indulge. A close friend of mine had a similar ailment and these were the types of steps the family took to keep her from compulsive spending when she went off her medication.

I hope you are able to overcome this and get yourself well soon. And I wish you luck in trying to recover some of your lost funds.

(Message edited by jpm on September 24, 2003)

 

[jinnia]

IMHO, if bandana has a true psychological problem, I'd say No, this person would not have notified the casino of any problem, BECAUSE, bandana would have probably just left the monies in the account for play and eventually had lost it.

Til you have delt with any TRUE psychological problems yourself, then you have no right in judging or making statements as to what one might or might not do.

I know how bi-polars with or without the anxiety issue going on can and can not act.

As for the 'compulsive gamblers' statement. That is NOT what it is all about, it is just the spending of money, whether gambling, buying useless things, or just giving your money away.

And depending on how deep the anxiety is, that may be why bandana is at home gambling online, throwing money away that way since this person is afraid of going out in public to throw it away in other means.

This is a true and serious problem, and yes, there are medications to help control it, BUT, they don't always work, and can make the situation worse.

 

[glodge]

Hi all,

Well I actually posted this privately to someone, because I didn't want to get labelled.

However as most of you know me here & I think you've see what I'm about by now, I feel compelled to say, that I was diagnosed with a similar illness.

At the end of the day it's a chemical imbalance, with the proper medication, it can been treated so one can lead a manageable life.

Problems arise if your not taking medication, have stop taking medication by your own choice or have not been diagnosed with this illness.

After a few months on medication, some people feel cured. Unfortunately they stop taking meds & well, the chemical that was being topped up by the meds depletes, usually within a week your back bare knuckling that roller coaster ride.

Meaning manic highs & depressing lows. Some forms of this illness you may have heard the term Bi-polar, manic depression used.

In essence when one is in the grip of this illness; void of medication, the scenario of which bandana has explained is not uncommon.

When one is in a manic state; in this case gambling, though one has a concept of money, all common sense & its value basically goes out the window.

Unfortunately this type of behaviour; where gambling is concerned, is sometimes mistaken for compulsive gambling.

However if diagnosed properly & medication is started the sufferers moods are levelled out by the chemical replacement & thus return to a manageable lifestyle.

bandana,

As far as Will Hill's take on this, it's a tricky one from where I see it.

On one hand we have Will Hill stating that there daily limits are X amount.

While on the other hand we have bandana stating that these have been changed recently.

Will Hill from my understand states they take an active roll in screening for compulsive gambling behaviour.

However what is one persons fortune is anther's spending money, and is this regard Will Hill is basically covered.

Unfortunately however I don't agree that if bandana pulled a jackpot she would have cashed out. Remember we are talking about someone who is in a manic state here.

The high probability is that she would have feed the entire jackpot back into the casino. I kid you not!!!
Least she wouldn't now be $45,000 pounds up sh#t creek.

Personally I 'd be on the phone to my solicitor & also my Psychiatric. Maybe with a formal letter to Will Hill from your solicitor including a letter from your Psychiatric may help. If Will Hill wont budge on this, I think your only options are to take court action or go to the media.

Sorry I can't be of more help bandana.

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

I agree

Unfortunately in the life of a recently diagnosed person suffering from an illness such as this, one ends up becoming a guinea pig as far as meds are concerned.

Some meds work, for some well it affects other badly, it can take up to 12 months to get on the right medication.

Personally when I first got diagnosed I was prescribed meds, that went bad, and as such contemplating necking myself.

A nightmare I doubt only those who have been walked in these shoes could understand.

This adds a further problem to the situation, not only are you sick & want help, but your trust factor & not wanting to go down a path like that again, adds to the anxiety.

I can only discribe it as a f#cking nightmare, that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

So sorry to hear you suffer/suffered like that.

I for one was diagnosed at age 29 as bi-polar, attempted suicide twice.

Was put on lithium, what a nightmare!! Then tried prozac, that messed with my thoughts bad, I couldn't function with mind racing non-stop on how to kill my husband (now ex). I was strong minded enough to pull reality in at one point and took myself off of that medicine.

Then it was elavil, nembutal, and inderol (I think spelled right), all 3 twice a day, talk about wanting to die. I stopped all medicines, they just made things worse. And worked on making myself strong minded enough to deal with any of the horrible feelings/thoughts that started developing.

May be one of the factors I'm a chronic migraine sufferer to this day....??

It is no life at all, and as you said a 'nightmare' that no one would know the depths of, unless they have been there, even in a deep 'moody blue' state for a few days. If they are not nor have not been there, then they need to not make statements about someone who is or has been.

 

[jpm]

Jinnia wrote As for the 'compulsive gamblers' statement. That is NOT what it is all about, it is just the spending of money, whether gambling, buying useless things, or just giving your money away.

I know its not all about that, the friend I described was a diagnosed bi-polar and did exactly what you described above, spent money on useless stuff, gave it away, etc. But she never gambled. My earlier advice in that respect is still sound. I do think that whether bandana has this illness or not (we just don't know), that there is a compulsive gambler (or simply compulsive behavior that manifested itself in gambling) issue there too. My initial point with the statement though was that Will Hill had said that they take steps to detect problem gamblers and close their accounts.
As for not being able to comment because I haven't experienced the problem first hand, sorry but I disagree. I am confident that NOBODY would have turned around and said to the casino after winning a huge jackpot 'I've been diagnosed with mental illness and shouldn't gamble so take back your jackpot and refund my deposits, and lock my account'. That's not judgmental, its just common sense. Nobody would do such a thing. My point to that was simply if the situation were reversed, we wouldn't be hearing any complaints.

That is an interesting thought that there probably would have been no cashin after such a win and it also would have been gambled away. That's really astounding.

p.s. Joel, did you get my email the other day?

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

Agreed.

However apart from Kniepm, I think people who have posted, are genuinely concerned & showing empathy.

Unfortunately as I'm sure you know, when it comes to illness such as this, most people haven't got a clue.

I guess if people don't speak out, then nothing changes and things like this, remain out of sight & out of mind.

No offense intended to anyone.

 

[glodge]

jpm,

The e-mail no I didn't, I have had some probs lately with OE. Most 2/3 of my e-mails got corrupted yesterday, and today it's not much better.

Think I'll have to do a fresh install; looking forward to that, not!

---------------------------------

As hard as it maybe to get your head around the high possibilty that if bandana won a jackpot, it would probably have all gone back to the casino.

I won $16,750S in around 7 hours and put the entire lot back over the following 12 hours, when on a huge manic episode.

Fortunately that was before I got treatment.

So yes it possible & IMHO a very real outcome.

Hence if bandana had won a jackpot, we may have still been presented with the same story, however it may have been dated a few weeks forward.

 

[jinnia]

(((jpm:: I know its not all about that, the friend I described was a diagnosed bi-polar and did exactly what you described above, spent money on useless stuff, gave it away, etc. But she never gambled. ))

Was she also inflicted with severe anxiety? That holds a person captive in their own home, depending on the depth of it. You get the urge to throw money away, you do it, by what ever means is available to you and not realizing you're doing so.

I have a friend who absolutely throws up and shakes as you wouldn't believe if/when being pushed to any degree to step outside. The fear on ones face, it is not funny in any manner.

((jpm::My initial point with the statement though was that Will Hill had said that they take steps to detect problem gamblers and close their accounts))

If bandana truly has this illness, then closing her account was good, for she/he is not responsibe for their action. And it was not detected by Will Hill, it was told to him.

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

Amen to that!!

Stay Well and Good Luck in life!

 

[jetset]

I guess most of us can only try to imagine what it must be like to be truly debilitated in a mental sense, or appreciate the loss of control it clearly entails.

And I think that most gamblers lend a genuinely sympathetic ear to complaints of problem gambling - that's been proved on any number of message boards where these unfortunates surface.

There are, however con artists who will try to exploit this mind disease to screw casinos, so I can understand a casino being exceptionally careful in their approach to a demand for wiping the slate clean in this far from ideal world of ours.

Having said that, and assuming that we are in possession of all the facts in this matter I can't understand why the management at William Hill did not ask for medical expert proof as this complaint dragged on and was obviously more serious than the usual hit and run conman attempt.

Surely someone there would have flagged a six week back 'n forth email complaint and said "We're listening to you - provide medical reports and be prepared to submit yourself to a neutral medical examination and we'll talk." Rather than what appears to be an outright and uncaring (almost arrogant) rejection that even dismissed the possibility of mediation?

And surely a high roller depositing GBP 1800 every day or so and gambling it away would have raised another flag, even if only a high roller? Correlate the two and it could be another indicator that the complaint was genuine.

I think the Brit gambling authorities will be all over this as it becomes more public (and the complainant has sent the story to the press who as we know love this sort of copy)

Will Hill could be in for a rough ride on both the moral and financial (share price) aspects here and may be advised to take early steps to bring things under control by doing what they should have done earlier - getting medical evaluations as a start.

 

[The Dude]

Hi Bandana,

Welcome to the forum, and I'm sorry about the mess.

I'm on the road until early next week. But in the meantime, could you please forward to me any names and email addresses that you've been in contact with at Wiliam Hill? Thanks!

 

[jetset]

CM, we've emailed R. Sadler with a request for media comment, which we will post here when received.

 

[glodge]

Notably there are some low lifes that would probably stoop to such depths as to use this in a con. Maybe I'm just a optimist & want to believe in the good of everyone.

IMO I think banada is telling the truth; for everyone's sake I hope I'm right.

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

I'm with you on this, I HOPE the truth is being told here, and I myself feel it is, but we really don't know.

If it is, this person should have plenty of medical documentations readily available to prove it, and if so, then it can be filed on in a court of law, then left up to the presiding judge to determine the outcome.

All My Best to you glodge
and Good Luck banada

 

[bandana]

Just wanted to thank you all for your posts,it means alot and gives me a little strength which I truly need at the moment.
Of course I have documentation of my illness,I was always ready to supply WH with that if they had asked.I can understand a casino being careful in a situation like this,but I can prove that I have been unwell for a long time.I was infact feeling alot better but I had to move home,I sold my flat and went into a rented one,hence why I had that kind of money in the bank.In selling my home I also had to re-home my dogs(who mean the world to me)as I could not find a rented place that excepted pets.The move and the dogs tipped me totally off balance.I joined the casino 3 days after I had moved to my new place.
Like I said in my letter to the newspaper,I don't want this happening to any one else, of course I want my money back, but I really do not want another human being to go through this.Their new limits of 10,000 per day and 50,000 a week are surley so iresponsible! Why did they change those limits? I have looked around other online casinos and most of them seem to have much lower limits than that.The statement on the site about being commited to detecting and stoping compulsive gambling is a joke with limits set so high.Thanks to all again.

 

[spearmaster]

Bandana -

10K and 50K are definitely off the wall, and I'm sure Gamcare would be very interested in that. If you need I can provide you the necessary contacts at Gamcare.

I would also suggest you forward copies of your doctor's documentation of your illness to WH as well.

BTW - if you intend to contact the media yourself, I would highly recommend starting with the tabloids, which are much more likely to move quickly, and which a respected operation like WH would be most likely to fear.

 

[cipher]

Spearmaster, I think Bandana should provide his or her attorney with any medical documentation and let the attorney forward those records to Will Hill when and if the need arises. Have a good one.

Cipher

 

[spearmaster]

That would probably be a good idea too... LOL... the whole point is that such documentation should be available.

In any case, Bandana has contacted me and I am providing her with contacts for Gamcare, who are much better equipped to deal with something like this than I could possibly ever be - fortunately I know people there as well

 

[sirius]

I thought I'd give everyone reading the thread a bit more information although the message below is not addressed to you, Dominique.

I have been trying for over a month to get William Hill to respond properly. I've emailed them quite a few times but their responses were terrible. One thing was that they wouldn't accept any mediation. I took Brian's advice a few weeks ago and suggested they could have their own medical assessment made of the player but they didn't even respond. They just totally stopped responding after a few emails and basically didn't accept any third party mediation even after she officially appointed me as mediator. I will probably post some of their responses later but they were embarrassing.

They even wrote in an email to the player that the problem was 'resolved' and the 'correct' decision was made but they didn't even ask for medical evidence.

I think it's rubbish what the site says about detecting problem gambling patterns. I was provided with the game logs by the player and it indicated she played between June 21st to August 6th. There was a break near the start between June 26th to July 5th but other than that she played almost every day over six weeks or so (about five weeks if you don't include the period near the beginning she didn't play).

Her deposits were all quite small (around 100) and she often played through the night. There were hundreds of these deposits and she lost on every one and never cashed anything out.

By the way, the game logs WH sent the player (the spreadsheet contains online links to the information) are starting to expire and get deleted. They no longer show any gameplay information from before July 11th.

 

[bandana]

The reason there is a week of no play Sirius,was because I was on holiday and not even in the UK.Just before I moved my stress and anxiety was so bad that it put me in hospital one night with a query heart attack.Thankfully it was not a heart attack,the doctors said it was caused through severe stress and strongly recommended that I go on holiday.I have heard nothing from William Hill since sending a fax to the CEO 2 days ago as yet.I also have not heard back from the newspaper so need to write to some more.

 

[bandana]

This is the e mail from sadler that sirius has just made reference to:
********************************

Dear Dominique,


I have been in contact with the third party you have tried to involve in this situation..

Just to clarify. I made my decision after examining all facts at my disposal and after
consulting my colleagues within William Hill. This was not a decision taken lightly
but it is the correct one.

I will not be reversing my decision.

With reference to your allegations of discrepancies I have passed these on to Ecash
who will report back to me in the next day or so. If there is a discrepancy this will be
returned to you.

I would like you to confirm who I need to contact in future. In all correspondence to
William Hill this has been from 'L Bayliss' who claims to be your partner. In
correspondence to the third party and on the thread held at "Winneronline" it seems
to be yourself. Could you please clarify.

Thank you.

With regards,

Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce
[email protected]

*****************************
I then wrote to him asking him what facts he had at his disposal, who took the desision and why it was the "correct desision". To that he replied 4 days later with this:

*********************************

Thank you for your e-mail.

As the Internet Customer Services Manager for William Hill I am empowered
to make decisions on behalf of the Company I represent.

The decision I made in this instance was made after extensive discussions
with my colleagues within the Company. The content of those discussions
is entirely confidential.

The decison not to return your stakes has now been made and there is no
reason for further discussion. I will not be negotiating with Mr Manso on a matter
which has already been resolved.

I am still awaiting the outcome of investigations by Ecash into your allegations of
an account discrepancy, I will be in touch in due course.

With regards,

Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce
[email protected]

 

[bandana]

Sorry it's me again! One thing that I would really like to know is who and where is the casino manager in all this. What happens normaly if there is a problem, do casino managers not manage the situation? Do WH even have a casino manager? If you try and use the e mail address on the site [email protected] it just bounces back saying that the DNS is not configured.

 

[jpm]

((jinnia:Was she also inflicted with severe anxiety? That holds a person captive in their own home, depending on the depth of it. You get the
urge to throw money away, you do it, by what ever means is available to you and not realizing you're doing so.))

No, actually she was quite gregarious, downright obnoxious at times! Didn't seem to be afflicted with any anxiety, just animosity towards her ex-hubby. But she still threw the money around like crazy.

((jinnia:If bandana truly has this illness, then closing her account was good, for she/he is not responsibe for their action. And it was not detected by Will Hill, it was told to him.))

I agree, it was good that they closed the account and the right thing to do.

I know it wasn't detected, that was my point. They SAY they take steps to detect compulsive behaviors, but they obviously didn't do that in this case. This is even more obvious after reading what sirius saw in the ecash logs. I was saying that since they didn't detect it and had to be told about it, they were somewhat negligent at that point. This is probably the best evidence they could use to try to recover some of bandana's funds. Any other angles would probably not be successful, since they don't show any negligence by the casino.

((glodge::I won $16,750S in around 7 hours and put the entire lot back over the following 12 hours, when on a huge manic episode.)

Wow, that too is just astounding to me Joel. Glad you got treatment though and haven't repeated that episode! Hopefully the same will happen for bandana as well. I'll resend the email, hopefully it'll make it thru this time.

 

[rainman]

well now I take it was not bj for it is rigged at will hill unlesw u playl with other players by yourself u cant win I recievec email jsut fine from casionmanager problaby how your email is set up is the problem my period button not working so bear with me

 

[bandana]

This morning I have e mailed my MP about this situation.I have still not heard from the CEO at William Hill Head Office, dispite sending two fax's to him.The first fax detailed what had happened and how it had been dealt with and the second I have cut and pasted below.Jetset emailed Robert Sadler a few days ago and asked for media comment and so far has had no response and in my opinion is not likely to.Jetset informed me that there will be a infopower story on Casinomeisters news and that it will be published sometime today for any of you that are interested.I think my MP will be very interested in this story due to the fact the the government are not happy about the fact that William Hill have Video Roulette machines in there land based betting shops, with huge payouts offered and are trying to stop it and also the fact that they are trying to legislate online casinos.William Hill by not responding to any of this are making themselves look ridiculous or like they have something to hide.Here is the second fax sent yesterday:
********************************************
Dear Mr. Harding,

It is now 3 days since I sent a fax to you, I was hoping that you would at least of had the courtesy
to acknowledge that.
Are you aware that you have a Code of Conduct page on your web site and that it states the
following :

4. Truth In Advertising
William Hill Casino shall be truthful in all advertising and promotional efforts and shall publish
only accurate information about its operations. Gaming and wagering rules and registration
procedures are made available to the public online.

When I joined the casino and all through my game play you were advertising the following :

How Much ECash Direct Can I Deposit To My William Hill Casino Account
Each Week By Credit Card?
New players can make initial deposits of up to:
1,000 without a PIN
1,500 with their temporary (e-mail delivered) PIN
For first 90 days established players may deposit up to 2,500 per week on receipt of their
permanent 6-digit PIN
After first 90 days established players may deposit up to 3,000 per week on receipt of
their permanent 6-digit PIN
After 1 year established players may deposit up to 3,500 per week on receipt of their
permanent 6-digit PIN
Weekly deposit limits are reset each Friday at 12:00am EST.
I was told afterwards that this was incorrect, making a mockery of your above statement.

If that was not bad enough, on the same page you have this displayed:

7. Controlling Compulsive Gambling
William Hill Casino is committed to detecting and reducing compulsive gambling. Our procedures
include monthly deposit limits and analysis of gambling patterns.
This is clearly an out and out lie, your procedures do not work! If you analyzed gambling patterns
then my account would of been closed after a week or two, or you would of at least contacted me
to make sure that there was not a problem. Your now revised monthly deposit limits would allow
someone to stake 200,000 pounds. There are very few people who would be making deposits of
10,000 a day or 50,000 per week rendering the limits as no limits in most cases.
Your organization is pretending to be concerned about Compulsive Gambling with that kind of
irresponsible limit.
You also have printed on your web site an e mail address for:
[email protected]
This infact will not work as the DNS is not configured correctly, so any e mail sent bounces back.
Are you happy as the CEO of William Hill with the inaccurate information as detailed above,that
is being displayed? Are you not at least embarrassed?
And what about this quote on your site :
We pride ourselves on providing a guaranteed
response to any of your problems 24 hours a day,
7 days a week.
So why did it take Mr. Sadler 10 days to even acknowledge the initial e mail sent to him?
Lastly, how you can have the nerve to state the following, is unbelievable:

The William Hill Organization is one of the world's
largest and most respected gaming companies.

We have over 1,600 offices and more than 10,000
employees with a reputation for integrity and
professionalism that stretches back over 65 years.
As I said in my last fax to you, I am writing to the papers, Gamcare, posting to online forums to
warn potential players and if necessary to my MP. I have only written to one paper so far, as I
was hoping that you would have the decency to contact me.

Sincerely

 

[sirius]

The mistake on the site for the manager's email address is that it should probably be [email protected] but it is given as [email protected]. I explained this to them weeks ago and it's still not corrected. I've emailed the 'guessed' address before too and not had a response.

In one email I was forwarded by the player, Sadler said that part of the web page wasn't updated with the new limits but the cashier in the software contained the current limits. The problem is that this is in small writing to the right side of the screen and it's not obvious that a player would read it.

 

[bandana]

Just got this today are they taking the pi**!

<table border=1><tr><td>
Free Casino Cash is waiting for you!.eml (9.2 k)</td></tr></table>​

 

[jpm]

Bandana, you should edit that attachment to take out your email address!!! Bryan, maybe you can before it gets to far.

Rainman, give it a rest already, you're b.s. about cheating bj doesn't belong in this forum. It has nothing to do with it and I already explained that its playing by the rules that are clearly posted on the Intercasino website. Play a different game already, since this one doesn't have the rules you want.

 

[bandana]

Check out the WH site, it has been totally re-designed, VERY INTERSTING! They suddenley have a whole load of stuff and advice about compulsive gambling,with links to gamcare and GA. Cannot find anything about limits anymore,e cash do not seem to be mentioned anymore,but they have yet AGAIN screwed up with the casino manager e mail.The DNS is still not configured correctly.I am starting to find it all quite laughable in a perverse kind of way. Still no contact from the CEO which is just rude,but maybe he did realise the site was an embarrasment with all it's inaccurate information and lies!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Go take a look!

 

[bandana]

They closed my account,because I was a problem or had a problem and this was verified in an e mail from Mr Manager Sadler! I have just downloaded the casino software again,deposited 10 pounds and played BJ.Amazing!!!! Of course I lost it, but that is not the point,my account is open for business as usual and with my old username and password!