William Hill - What customer service!

[bandana]

Hi,
I don't know if you can help me, I am writing this as I am desperate and don't know where else to go with it.
In June of this year I joined William Hill Casino online.At the time I had just moved and in retrospect should never have joined the casino, I was suffering from anxiety and depression which had been long running and had been signed off by the doctor for 2 years as ill and unfit for work.
After being with William Hill for 3 and a half weeks I received a bank statement that showed that just over 45,000 pounds had gone from my account to William Hill. This was a complete shock to say the least, especially as the casino stated on their FAQ's page that they set deposit limits of 1,000 per week. I was in such a state my partner took over and wrote the following to the casino:
**************************************************
RE: ACCOUNT :

User Name: *********
William Hill Account Number: CP0********

I am writing on behalf of my partner who joined your casino approx. 5 weeks ago. She opened an account with her switch card and started to play your online games. She had read different terms and conditions and had read on your

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that you have deposit limits of 1,000 gbp per week. In 3 and a half weeks approx. 45,000 gbp has gone from her bank account to William hill.She has not cashed out a penny. If I had known she was doing this I would have stopped her. She is currently under the doctor and has been for the past 2 years suffering from depression and anxiety.She seemed to be getting slightly better, now she is suicidal.She had just sold her flat and that money was all she had in the world.
I have tried to download her statements online from the casino, but it only shows a couple of dates, and in all honesty the figures seem to be all over the place, I cannot make head nor tail of them.
I would like to know how this can happen when you do clearly state on that page that limits are imposed. I would also like to know if there is anything that could be done given this situation, to get if not all , some of her money back. I am taking her to see a solicitor, but obviously wanted to contact you in the first instance for your comments.
A prompt reply would be appreciated as I am very concerned about this and in turn how its affecting her mental state.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
L.Bayliss
**************************************************
That e mail was sent on the 8th of August 2003. There was no reply to that mail until the 18th August 2003 and then it was only an acknowledgment mail and was as follows :
**************************************************
Dear Mr. Bayliss,
Your query was forwarded to our Casino Director and the Manager of Ecashdirect
Customer Care last week.
They are in discussion with our Legal Team and should be in touch with you in the next few days.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce
**************************************************
In those 10 days that went by, my partner phoned William Hill, and wrote many more e mails asking for a reply. Writing to them can be a problem as some of the e mail addresses that they list on their site do not work. On the 26th of August Mr. Sadler did reply with the following:
**************************************************
Dear Mr. Bayliss,
Thank you for your e-mail.
I have been in lengthy discussions regarding this situation with my colleagues both at William Hill and Ecash and I will be in touch when they have concluded.
I will e-mail you on Thursday when I return to the office.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
**************************************************
On the 29th of August he wrote the following:
**************************************************
Dear Mr. Bayliss,
As stated before, I have been in lengthy discussions with my
colleagues regarding this situation.
Having examined the circumstances I regret that we will not
be returning the stakes as you have requested. All transactions
were accepted in good faith and as far as we are concerned are
legitimate. Had your partner won we would have honored the bets.
Although the FAQ's on the Casino splashpage

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were inadvertently displaying the previous depositing details, all
other parts of the site displayed the updated correct version.
The revised deposit limits were displayed correctly within the actual
Casino application where all transactions take place. These limits are
guidelines with the option for individual customers to set their own
limits
As you have previously noted, you are no longer able to access your
partner's account. It is our policy to close the accounts of problem
gamblers as soon as we detect (or are informed) that there is a
problem; this is why you have no further access to the account.
Our sites are designed as enjoyable, easy and affordable entertainment
and are treated as such by the vast majority of customers. We recommend
that you seek help from the following Organisation:

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In your previous correspondence you stated that there was a discrepancy
in the account statement. If you send me proof of this I will arrange
for the 60 to be reimbursed.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce

**************************************************
Since then many more e mails have gone backwards and forwards. My partner requested all of the transaction statements and game logs, for which we had to wait along time for, but they were sent eventually.The game logs and transaction statements have discrepancies and although Mr Sadler was told of this, nothing has been explained. Mr Sadler was asked who made the decision to not refund any money, how the decision was reached, why the page displaying the limits as incorrect, why on their code of ethics page they state that they are committed to detecting and stopping compulsive gambling and also why it states on their site that they only print true and accurate information, when they clearly do not.I also found a guy who is involved in the online casino industry who wanted to mediate for me as he felt that the whole situation was being dealt with so badly, this was the reply that eventually followed:
**************************************************
Dear ***********
Thank you for your e-mail.
As the Internet Customer Services Manager for William Hill I am empowered
to make decisions on behalf of the Company I represent.
The decision I made in this instance was made after extensive discussions
with my colleagues within the Company. The content of those discussions
is entirely confidential.
The decision not to return your stakes has now been made and there is no
reason for further discussion. I will not be negotiating with Mr Ma**** on a matter
which has already been resolved.
I am still awaiting the outcome of investigations by Ecash into your allegations of
an account discrepancy, I will be in touch in due course.
With regards,
Robert Sadler
Internet Customer Services Manager
William Hill E-Commerce

Apart from the fact that I am climbing the walls over this and am flat broke, and I mean flat broke, I do not want this happening to other people.I find it amazing that no one has even phoned me to discuss this, no one asked me for proof that I was ill or on medication and that I still am. I went to a solicitor who said that they would take the case but it would be hard as the casino side of William hill is based off shore and therefore falls under a different law to the UK. The page that displayed the limits got changed before they acknowledged my first e mail, but I have a print out of the page as it was, and of course it is dated.When you play online you are in a false world, I won't be doing it again, but I am sure there are people out there that will. They state that they are committed to stopping and detecting compulsive gambling but since changing the limit page, their new limits are set at 10,000 per day and 50,000 per week. If that's not out of control I don't know what is! It's very hard to write about this in its entirety.I have all correspondence sent and received from them and there is much more I could tell you, but this e mail is a outline as to what happened.My solicitor actually suggested the papers as he felt William Hill would not want adverse publicity.I have warned them that I would write to the tabloids and they just are not bothered by it, it seems. Can you help me?
My contact home number if you wanted to talk to me is ************.
Regards
****************



(Message edited by casinomeister on September 26, 2003)

 

[spearmaster]

Ouch.

If I were you I would take your solicitor's advice. The power of the media in an instance such is this is immeasurable - if you can clearly prove your circumstances William Hill will have a lot of explaining to do. While the online casino may not fall under UK law, the company in question is still registered in the UK and their bookmaking license could still possibly be jeopardized by an instance such as this.

However, I am not a solicitor/lawyer/attorney/legal advisor - thus what I say would not in itself be strong enough to act on and should not be considered as such.

You may want to print a copy of the new "limits" page as well. And of course, their other recommendation to contact Gamcare is also sound.

 

[spearmaster]

One other thing I want to point out, unfortunately in the casino's favor, which is that it is difficult under any circumstances for anyone to believe that you didn't know you were spending more than 1000 quid a week, even with possible anxiety and depression. A doctor would need to certify that this is indeed the case and that such a scenario could reasonably be possible.

 

[glodge]

Double Ouch.

Yes I agree with spear.

Take your solicitors advice, the power of the media is a strong persuader, Will Hill have way too much to lose.

I have also added info from

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which keeps caches on past web pages of site. You may find the following URL very useful

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And by entering the URL of WH faq URL came up with the following ( this page is date in Feb 2003 )

How much ECash Direct can I deposit to my William Hill Casino account each week by credit card?
New players can make initial deposits of up to:

1,000 without a PIN
1,500 with their temporary (e-mail delivered) PIN
For first 90 days established players may deposit up to 2,500 per week on receipt of their permanent 6-digit PIN.
After first 90 days established players may deposit up to 3,000 per week on receipt of their permanent 6-digit PIN.
After 1 year established players may deposit up to 3,500 per week on receipt of their permanent 6-digit PIN.
Weekly deposit limits are reset each Friday at 12:00am EST.

 

[jinnia]

glodge, spearmaster,

what is the currency value in US dollars of 45,000 pounds??

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

45,000.00 GBP = 74,368.43 USD

Conversion
1 GBP = 1.65263 USD 1 USD = 0.605095 GBP

 

[glodge]

Here is a good URL for currency conversions

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:yes:

 

[kniepm]

Bandana: I bet winning a few hundred quid would have snapped you out of your depression right quick.

Your whining that WH treated you like a responsible adult and let you wager your money is ridiculous. This is the type of attitude that encourages our legislatures (in the U.S.) to pass laws to prevent those of us who want to gamble online from doing so (among other laws passed "for our own good"). I, for one, would prefer not to be treated as an imbicile by my government. Let me make an adult's decisions and I'll bear the consequences in kind. If you cannot be responsible for your own actions, perhaps you should be institutionalized.

 

[glodge]

kniepm,

Although I understand and accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion and views, the line that you've taken here kniepm IMHO has about as much compassion as that of gnat!

Hope you very pleased with yourself & feeling like a real MAN now!

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

Thank you.

I admit, not too bright.. so one more question..

Players can make deposits of up to : .. this means....Euro ?

 

[glodge]

jinna,

= UK pounds

The symbol for Euro

= Euro



(Message edited by glodge on September 23, 2003)

 

[kniepm]

I just spoke with Nat -- he agrees with me, compassion is for the weak.

 

[jinnia]

Sounds like this kniepm has more of a problem than bandana.

Psychological problems can be worked on, but having a dead heart, a lost cause!

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

Thank you.

and thanks for thhe currency converter link.

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

yw

 

[linda7]

Kniepm:

How can you be so mean and cold hearted? It's people like you that breed hatred. You have made exactly SIX posts on this forum, each of which shows that you have the IQ of my sneaker. I try to never be malicious or uncompassionate to anyone...however, you have crossed the line.

 

[santo]

I'm pretty sure that the UK's repsonsible gaming legislator would have something to say.

Incidently, could you folks do something to stop your exchange rate. I lost 200 in 3 days just from money sitting in casino accounts whilst the dollar crashes and burns ;-)

 

[bandana]

Kniemp,
I hope you are never in this situation,you are ill,probally more so than me.This is not trivia,this is about really screwing with someones life-mine!I won't have anywhere to live if this is not sorted out in weeks rather than months.If you get off on that,then god help you.

 

[deeg]

I agree with what spearmaster said. If you can get a doctor to certify that you were indeed mentally incompetent during that time, you might have a chance.
Also, have you considered Gamblers Anonymous?

kniepm, while I agree that yes, we all assume responsibility when we gamble and the consequences it brings, there is also a more serious problem for people who gamble in an unstable state of mind.
Institutionalized, no. But to react in the cold, anal-retentive way you have when someone truly does need help such as this person, you my friend are the one who could use a help with your mental state as well. Say, perhaps a slap upside the head.

 

[jpm]

Wow, that is one sad tale. I feel sorry for you bandana. That being said, I have to agree with spear's second post. Its hard for me to believe you didn't know you were spending more than 1,000 per week. This I think will be the problem with trying to make a case against the casino for having inaccurate information on the website.

Simple division will show that you had to deposit on average 1,800 per DAY for the 3 1/2 weeks you played there in order to rack up 45,000 in deposits. If you do get to court with this issue, this I'm sure will be pointed out.

I think you're only course of action would be to say that they didn't detect that you were a 'problem gambler' as quickly as they should have (assuming that you kept depositing, playing & losing and repeating this cycle) and as a result, you lost more than you should have. This may have a chance of getting you perhaps 1/2 your loss back.

I truly do feel sorry for you, I think we all can relate to the experience of gambling beyond our means or intentions at one point in our gambling life. Unfortunately, I don't think that Will Hill should be obligated to return your losses either.

Now before you all jump all over me and call me heartless, consider this: If bandana had won a progressive during this 3.5 week spree, would they have notified the casino about the mental illness issue and told them to take the winnings back except for what was initially deposited? Probably not (and why would you??, that'd be kinda dumb!). Or even worse, if Will Hill had somehow discovered this illness after the win, and declared all play null & void and returned all deposits and then closed the account, what do you think the result would have been? The message boards would go berserk and Will Hill would soon become more hated than the Virtual Casino group and probably have to close the online casino.

Bandana, please get yourself into a compulsive gamblers help group as soon as you can. Also, have your partner notify as many of the casino groups as possible to not allow you to open an account at any of their casions so you won't be able to play even if you do get tempted again. Send emails to e-cash, proccyber, playtec, etc., that will cover a good chunk of casinos out there. Also, until this is under control you should give up any credit/debit cards you have so it will be even more difficult to indulge. A close friend of mine had a similar ailment and these were the types of steps the family took to keep her from compulsive spending when she went off her medication.

I hope you are able to overcome this and get yourself well soon. And I wish you luck in trying to recover some of your lost funds.

(Message edited by jpm on September 24, 2003)

 

[jinnia]

IMHO, if bandana has a true psychological problem, I'd say No, this person would not have notified the casino of any problem, BECAUSE, bandana would have probably just left the monies in the account for play and eventually had lost it.

Til you have delt with any TRUE psychological problems yourself, then you have no right in judging or making statements as to what one might or might not do.

I know how bi-polars with or without the anxiety issue going on can and can not act.

As for the 'compulsive gamblers' statement. That is NOT what it is all about, it is just the spending of money, whether gambling, buying useless things, or just giving your money away.

And depending on how deep the anxiety is, that may be why bandana is at home gambling online, throwing money away that way since this person is afraid of going out in public to throw it away in other means.

This is a true and serious problem, and yes, there are medications to help control it, BUT, they don't always work, and can make the situation worse.

 

[glodge]

Hi all,

Well I actually posted this privately to someone, because I didn't want to get labelled.

However as most of you know me here & I think you've see what I'm about by now, I feel compelled to say, that I was diagnosed with a similar illness.

At the end of the day it's a chemical imbalance, with the proper medication, it can been treated so one can lead a manageable life.

Problems arise if your not taking medication, have stop taking medication by your own choice or have not been diagnosed with this illness.

After a few months on medication, some people feel cured. Unfortunately they stop taking meds & well, the chemical that was being topped up by the meds depletes, usually within a week your back bare knuckling that roller coaster ride.

Meaning manic highs & depressing lows. Some forms of this illness you may have heard the term Bi-polar, manic depression used.

In essence when one is in the grip of this illness; void of medication, the scenario of which bandana has explained is not uncommon.

When one is in a manic state; in this case gambling, though one has a concept of money, all common sense & its value basically goes out the window.

Unfortunately this type of behaviour; where gambling is concerned, is sometimes mistaken for compulsive gambling.

However if diagnosed properly & medication is started the sufferers moods are levelled out by the chemical replacement & thus return to a manageable lifestyle.

bandana,

As far as Will Hill's take on this, it's a tricky one from where I see it.

On one hand we have Will Hill stating that there daily limits are X amount.

While on the other hand we have bandana stating that these have been changed recently.

Will Hill from my understand states they take an active roll in screening for compulsive gambling behaviour.

However what is one persons fortune is anther's spending money, and is this regard Will Hill is basically covered.

Unfortunately however I don't agree that if bandana pulled a jackpot she would have cashed out. Remember we are talking about someone who is in a manic state here.

The high probability is that she would have feed the entire jackpot back into the casino. I kid you not!!!
Least she wouldn't now be $45,000 pounds up sh#t creek.

Personally I 'd be on the phone to my solicitor & also my Psychiatric. Maybe with a formal letter to Will Hill from your solicitor including a letter from your Psychiatric may help. If Will Hill wont budge on this, I think your only options are to take court action or go to the media.

Sorry I can't be of more help bandana.

 

[glodge]

jinnia,

I agree

Unfortunately in the life of a recently diagnosed person suffering from an illness such as this, one ends up becoming a guinea pig as far as meds are concerned.

Some meds work, for some well it affects other badly, it can take up to 12 months to get on the right medication.

Personally when I first got diagnosed I was prescribed meds, that went bad, and as such contemplating necking myself.

A nightmare I doubt only those who have been walked in these shoes could understand.

This adds a further problem to the situation, not only are you sick & want help, but your trust factor & not wanting to go down a path like that again, adds to the anxiety.

I can only discribe it as a f#cking nightmare, that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

 

[jinnia]

glodge,

So sorry to hear you suffer/suffered like that.

I for one was diagnosed at age 29 as bi-polar, attempted suicide twice.

Was put on lithium, what a nightmare!! Then tried prozac, that messed with my thoughts bad, I couldn't function with mind racing non-stop on how to kill my husband (now ex). I was strong minded enough to pull reality in at one point and took myself off of that medicine.

Then it was elavil, nembutal, and inderol (I think spelled right), all 3 twice a day, talk about wanting to die. I stopped all medicines, they just made things worse. And worked on making myself strong minded enough to deal with any of the horrible feelings/thoughts that started developing.

May be one of the factors I'm a chronic migraine sufferer to this day....??

It is no life at all, and as you said a 'nightmare' that no one would know the depths of, unless they have been there, even in a deep 'moody blue' state for a few days. If they are not nor have not been there, then they need to not make statements about someone who is or has been.

 

[jpm]

Jinnia wrote As for the 'compulsive gamblers' statement. That is NOT what it is all about, it is just the spending of money, whether gambling, buying useless things, or just giving your money away.

I know its not all about that, the friend I described was a diagnosed bi-polar and did exactly what you described above, spent money on useless stuff, gave it away, etc. But she never gambled. My earlier advice in that respect is still sound. I do think that whether bandana has this illness or not (we just don't know), that there is a compulsive gambler (or simply compulsive behavior that manifested itself in gambling) issue there too. My initial point with the statement though was that Will Hill had said that they take steps to detect problem gamblers and close their accounts.
As for not being able to comment because I haven't experienced the problem first hand, sorry but I disagree. I am confident that NOBODY would have turned around and said to the casino after winning a huge jackpot 'I've been diagnosed with mental illness and shouldn't gamble so take back your jackpot and refund my deposits, and lock my account'. That's not judgmental, its just common sense. Nobody would do such a thing. My point to that was simply if the situation were reversed, we wouldn't be hearing any complaints.

That is an interesting thought that there probably would have been no cashin after such a win and it also would have been gambled away. That's really astounding.

p.s. Joel, did you get my email the other day?