WHY REMOTE SLOTS ARE RIGGED.

[Rusty]

Just for Mike

First off, what do I mean by rigged?
I mean that the results ARE influenced in some way and/or the game conditions do not remain unchanged.
In other words there is more than just a RNG at work.

Second off we need to know how genuine/unrigged software should be programmed to give a random and fair vidoe slot game.


1) Each result should be independent from all previous results

2) each result should have an equal probability of occuring

3) the number of combinations of winning results should remain constant

4) the payout % of the slot is determined by all possible line combinations
and the total returns resulting from these combinations.Thus the payout % of a slot should only be adjustable by adjusting the paytable and not altering the mechanics of the game.

Now let us take each point in detail and see how RTG and MG compare.

1) Is each result independent of all previous results?

This is impossible to prove either way but experience of poor results after a decent winning combination could be viewed as evidence to suggest this is not the case, especially with RTG.However there is no proof that the games are rigged in this way.

2) Does each result have an equal opportunity of occuring?

Here I think there is evidence to suggest this is not the case. As far as I am aware the Reel layout of a game can be changed (RTG) to affect the possible outcomes. If this is a fact then this constitutes a rigged game. Also if the layout remains the same but the likelyhood of a symbol appearing is lessened (scatter/wild symbols for eg) then this would also constitute a rigged game.

3) Do the number of combinations of winning results remain the same?

Obviously if the reel layout is changed then this is obviously not the case and so the game can be described as rigged.

4) Is the payout% adjustable at RTG?= YES at MG= UNKNOWN
Is the payout % adjusted by changing the paytable: RTG= NO MG=YES
Therefore the only conclusion can be that the payout % of RTG slots is adjusted by changing the mechanics of the game.
This means that the slots can not be truely random



Remember it is the Casinos that state their games are completely random if they were a little more honest then I wouldn't have to state the obvious.

Controversial?
Not really

 

[KasinoKing]

Therefore the only conclusion can be that the payout % of RTG slots is adjusted by changing the mechanics of the game.
This means that the slots can not be truely random

Controversial?
Not really

Sorry mate - I'm no "RTG lover", but your post is nonsense.

Changing the reel bands just changes the payout %.
In no shape or form does that conclude that the spins are still not 100% random.

I've been dabbling with RTG a bit recently, after a long break of about 6-months because I was convinced the payout %'s had been reduced 'across the board' (at least, where I was playing! ).
I have to say that now I do feel I'm getting a fair & reasonable game with RTG slots.

 

[winbig]

I won $1450 from $200 in deposits at an RTG casino a few weeks ago. 100% of that win was from slots.

Was that rigged as well?

 

[steinhaug]

I would add some more points, that I seem to be getting more and more statistical "proof" of now in MG.

1. Does loosing big in a game, make you win big in the next one?

Given we are working on 95% payout in MG:

2. When having a global payout over 100%, why is is dry run after dry run all over the board until you are below and then get back upto around 95%

I gave an excersice a week or so ago, but nobody seemed to be interested in taking it. A lot of people seems to trust their gut feeling that all people are nice and all is true random - nonsence!

And to winbig, it seems to me that in all player accounts you get your winning streak one time which will go above 100%, but you should try those 1400 and keep going another day, you will then feel the MG RNG - but that is my suspicion. I store all my records, and I have quite a few casinoes now where I see this happends, you win big in the biginning - enough for playing fools like me to be bitten by the game and think this is the place to play - and then you end up toggling that 95% percent.

Final question:

3. Are we playing against ourselves, (95%), or are we playing against all the other players? If you dont get this question, what Im saying is - if you were to win huge on Thunderstruck and I login after you - should I expect to win anything? The correct answer would be no - just as if you loose big - I would have a bigger expectation to win back some of your loss.

Atleast this is the way it works on landbased casinoes.

Great post Rusty!

 

[AudiManinBoro]

Totally agree kimss, slots are computers and if a slot has no money to pay out believe me it wont, which by definition defies the fact that random can truly exist. And of course nobody cheats in an industry that is very hard to check and loosely regulated do they?

 

[refre]

Final question:

3. Are we playing against ourselves, (95%), or are we playing against all the other players? If you dont get this question, what Im saying is - if you were to win huge on Thunderstruck and I login after you - should I expect to win anything? The correct answer would be no - just as if you loose big - I would have a bigger expectation to win back some of your loss.

Atleast this is the way it works on landbased casinoes.

I do sometimes get the feeling we are playing against ourselves. At least when it comes to long dry spells, followed by a big win that takes to you back to where you started, +/- a few percent.

Playing live in a casino you may win a lot on a slot which is "due", because someone made it this way by wagering a lot without winning anything.
But you might find that the machine doesn't pay any since it just awarded a jackpot to someone else.

If this is true, it implicates you have make "your own" slots "due" online. You can't rely on the thousands of others playing the same game to do it for you

 

[Kaynos72]

I won $1450 from $200 in deposits at an RTG casino a few weeks ago. 100% of that win was from slots.

Was that rigged as well?

Care to explain how you did that ? It was not a RJ i hope ?

 

[steinhaug]

If this is true, it implicates you have make "your own" slots "due" online. You can't rely on the thousands of others playing the same game to do it for you

I for one belive this is the case, and all my plays at different casinoes online (MG) seems to back up my theory. You can infact test this yourself since the freeplay in MG now is edentical as real play. Register accounts in several casinoes and start wagering, you will most likely in the first 10.000 spins have two wins close by within your wagering range that takes you above 100% payout. Somewhat $1000-$10.000 in winnings, from this point - astalavista. Not straight away, you keep sailing on 100% payout for a 100-1000 spins, but then astalavista. You will most likely need to loose down to below 95% global payout, and the more you dip the bigger win next time (but not far above 95% global).

I will continue the above talk som other day and also bring along some statistics to back up my arguments.

 

[KasinoKing]

I can't be bothered to argue about this any more, since some of you have made up your minds.

But here's a little thought for the non-randomists:-

A guy walks in to a casino and straight to the nearest roulette wheel.
He plonks $1,000 slap bang on number 32-Red
What do you know - it's his lucky day and 32-Red hits!
He picks up his $36,000 and trots off home - happy as Larry!

The other 6 players round the wheel can't believe what they just saw, but carry on betting their $30-$50 spins, just as they were before...

Now are you telling me that some microchip or super electronic system will now make sure no-one wins too much so that the roulette wheel can 'get it's money back'?

No.
It doesn't have to.
No matter what players bet, over time the wheel will make exactly 2.7027%
It does not need to be rigged - the maths ensures the wheel can not lose.
The exact same theory can be applied to (online) slots.
The mathematics of the paytable combined with all possible outcomes of the reels give each machine an exact fixed house edge over an infinite time.
If you, or anyone else just hit the jackpot at odds of 250,000 to 1, you'd still have a 1 in 250,000 chance of hitting it again the very next spin!

I'm not saying 100% definitely that online slots are NOT rigged (who knows?), but I am saying that 100% definitely they do not NEED to be for the casino to be making a good income!
KK

 

[Slotster!]

I'm not saying 100% definitely that online slots are NOT rigged (who knows?), but I am saying that 100% definitely they do not NEED to be for the casino to be making a good income!
KK

Totally agree! I'm just wondering however if some operators maybe get 'greedy'?

 

[winbig]

And to winbig, it seems to me that in all player accounts you get your winning streak one time which will go above 100%, but you should try those 1400 and keep going another day, you will then feel the MG RNG - but that is my suspicion. I store all my records, and I have quite a few casinoes now where I see this happends, you win big in the biginning - enough for playing fools like me to be bitten by the game and think this is the place to play - and then you end up toggling that 95% percent.

That's why you quit while you're ahead.

You're going to end up losing most, if not all, of it at ANY casino if you keep playing long enough. - online or off, it doesn't matter. Nor does it mater what software you're playing on - RTG or not.

 

[steinhaug]

Well... Here is my rant for the night,

I can't be bothered to argue about this any more, since some of you have made up your minds.

Then you and I agree to the fullest, to bad we disagree,

If you, or anyone else just hit the jackpot at odds of 250,000 to 1, you'd still have a 1 in 250,000 chance of hitting it again the very next spin!

Yes, you have a chanche of hitting the jackpot 100 times in a row, it's random I know... However it sure doesnt feel that way. It feels like you are playing against yourself, and against a global 95% payout which has in its algoryth to bumb above 100% in the beginning of your account somewhere. I have done this to many times to count now, and it do really looks "patternish" since I can predict what happends.

Play 5.000 - 10.000 spins and you WILL win above 100%, then float a while without winning or loosing - then you start falling and will ajoust on 95%. Have som fun in funmode and do the excercise I offered 2 weeks ago. Seems to me far to people have an opinion on 100% fairplay, however we know many softwares already being caught in cheating. Whos to say the rest doesnt? Would be dumb of them not to since it's so much money involved, and since we players are pretty "dumb" and patternish aswell, creating a system which manipulates the typical gambler and also have a math genious which balances the payouts in a waythanks to low variance so that the global is 95% anyway - genious!

 

[GrandMaster]

I for one belive this is the case, and all my plays at different casinoes online (MG) seems to back up my theory. You can infact test this yourself since the freeplay in MG now is edentical as real play. Register accounts in several casinoes and start wagering, you will most likely in the first 10.000 spins have two wins close by within your wagering range that takes you above 100% payout. Somewhat $1000-$10.000 in winnings, from this point - astalavista. Not straight away, you keep sailing on 100% payout for a 100-1000 spins, but then astalavista. You will most likely need to loose down to below 95% global payout, and the more you dip the bigger win next time (but not far above 95% global).

I will continue the above talk som other day and also bring along some statistics to back up my arguments.

The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%.

 

[GrandMaster]

Totally agree kimss, slots are computers and if a slot has no money to pay out believe me it wont, which by definition defies the fact that random can truly exist.

A slot does not have to pay out, the casino has to.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

No.
It doesn't have to.
No matter what players bet, over time the wheel will make exactly 2.7027%
It does not need to be rigged - the maths ensures the wheel can not lose.

And `something` ensuring the wheel CANNOT lose is not a definition of rigged KK cos it sure is in my book lol TRULY random MEANS that there could never be no % setting. The fact that there is, shows random doesnt exist. Something which ensures the wheel cannot lose and will always get to 2.7027 % is fixed, it HAS to be by its very definition.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

A slot does not have to pay out, the casino has to.

But the slot is the means in which the casino pays out. If the slot has paid out more than the % it allows it will not pay out.

 

[steinhaug]

And `something` ensuring the wheel CANNOT lose is not a definition of rigged KK cos it sure is in my book lol TRULY random MEANS that there could never be no % setting. The fact that there is, shows random doesnt exist. Something which ensures the wheel cannot lose and will always get to 2.7027 % is fixed, it HAS to be by its very definition.

I totally agree, if the random was truly random some casinoes would have 300% payout one month and maby 10% another month due to the fact that two huge jackpots can come on two clicks in a row... Wakeup call - they never do!

KK - Your reasoning are nice, however it doesn't add up in the real world when you look at the "logic" behind it...

I would love to see a MG casino have a payout above 300% one month, that would be sweet! It would truly be random!

 

[sweiger]

I would love to see a MG casino have a payout above 300% one month, that would be sweet! It would truly be random!

That would be highly possible, if the casino only had a few players. But the fact that most casinos have a turnover made by many players, ensures that on a monthly basis the payout% will fall within the expected, more or less.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

very true Sweiger but a truly random casino would not HAVE a % ratio as Kimss already said because random cannot be predicted except by laws of chaos theory which again cannot be accuratly proven itself lol the mere fact that % ratios exist indicate that the casinos are `manipulated? rigged? altered? set? use whichever word you like they are all equally valid because they all have them. not that this bothers me, manipulated or not their fun to play and i win occasionally so that will do me

 

[sweiger]

As GrandMaster said:
"The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%."

That means, on a short scale, big swings can (and will) occur.
Make 100 spins on a 95% slot. You might bust quickly, and you might end up with 2000% payout or more...or less. It's random at work.
Make a million spins on the same slot, and your return will most certainly be close to 95%. That is also random at work, although it might not seem so to you.

Nobody can predict what will happen in 100 spins (unfortunately ), but in 1,000,000 spins, this "law of large numbers" will have shown its effect, and one can predict that the payout% will be very close to the calculated %.

 

[aka23]

I totally agree, if the random was truly random some casinoes would have 300% payout one month and maby 10% another month due to the fact that two huge jackpots can come on two clicks in a row... Wakeup call - they never do!

KK - Your reasoning are nice, however it doesn't add up in the real world when you look at the "logic" behind it...

I would love to see a MG casino have a payout above 300% one month, that would be sweet! It would truly be random!

Payouts wouldn't be that extreme if they had a significant number of slot players. The more spins that are made over the payout period, the closer the percentage should be to the theoretical payout.

I'll begin with roulette because the numbers are a lot more simple:
With 100 single-zero roulette spins on a 1:1 bet, 1 standard deviation on the payout is 89% to 107%. If over the course of the month, you have 1 million spins instead of 100, then 1 standard deviation for the payout is 97.2% to 97.4%... very close the expected 97.3%

1:1 bets are low variance. If the players bet on single numbers instead, the the bets are higher variance, so the numbers increase as follows... 100 spins has a 1 SD range for the payout of 61% to 151%. 1 million spins has the 1SD range 96.7% to 97.9%... again zeroing in on the expected 97.3%.

Slots are the highest variance of all. Plugging in a crude estimate of slot variance and a 5% house edge, I get a range of 4% to 6% for 1 million bets. With 100 million bets, the range drops down to 4.9 to 5.1%.

Of course the true monthly payout will have more variance than above to due inconsistent bet sizes, a few abnormally high variance games, and varying house edge between games. High rollers making large bets have a greater impact on variance of payout than typical players.

If the casino is large and gets lots of bets each month, I'd expect the payout to be reasonably close to theoretical. However, I'd expect the small places that don't get as much action to have a much wider range in return. And that is exactly what we see when the software remains constant. The greatest range in payout I have ever seen at a Microgaming was at Old Samurai, which is one of the smallest MGs I have seen. They might have a 70% slots payout one month, and a 120% payout the next. While the large MGs that get lots of play tend to be 95-96% most months. Payouts of land based casinos follow a similar pattern. You never hear about land based casinos paying out 10% or 300% in a given month. If a casino ever paid out that much, it would be indicative of a serious problem, not of random behavior.

 

[thetic]

And `something` ensuring the wheel CANNOT lose is not a definition of rigged KK cos it sure is in my book lol TRULY random MEANS that there could never be no % setting. The fact that there is, shows random doesnt exist. Something which ensures the wheel cannot lose and will always get to 2.7027 % is fixed, it HAS to be by its very definition.

Sorry audimaninboro but you're not quite getting the argument here. By this logic every casino online or landbased fixes rouletter and all their card games. There is a huge difference between the house edge and being fixed.

Whether or not online casinos are fixed is a separate argument altogether.

Peugeot206ManInStoney

 

[KasinoKing]

TRULY random MEANS that there could never be no % setting. The fact that there is, shows random doesn't exist. Something which ensures the wheel cannot lose and will always get to 2.7027 % is fixed, it HAS to be by its very definition.

Now you're just getting silly - or trying to wind people up!

By your definition if you took a coin out of your pocket, tossed it 1000 times and found you got 500 heads & 500 tails (give or take 0.5%) that would mean that the coin HAS to be rigged???

No further comment.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

Sorry audimaninboro but you're not quite getting the argument here. By this logic every casino online or landbased fixes rouletter and all their card games. There is a huge difference between the house edge and being fixed.

Whether or not online casinos are fixed is a separate argument altogether.

Peugeot206ManInStoney

lol i understand thetic but to me `house edge` is just another word for `rigged` one just happens to sound a lot less harsh than the other but it amounts to the same. In a truly random casino game house edge wouldnt exist, the same as with slots and their equivalent % payout `house edge`

 

[Slotster!]

In a truly random casino game house edge wouldnt exist, the same as with slots and their equivalent % payout `house edge`

You're getting "payout" confused with "outcome".

The "payouts" are deliberately set so that the "outcome" of a random event means the casino always wins in the long run...

 

[AudiManinBoro]

Now you're just getting silly - or trying to wind people up!

By your definition if you took a coin out of your pocket, tossed it 1000 times and found you got 500 heads & 500 tails (give or take 0.5%) that would mean that the coin HAS to be rigged???

No further comment.

Well we are all entitled to our opinions KK so i cant begrudge you that lol
btw it is possible to `rig` the flipping off the coin if the flipper is experienced and skillful enough to flip the coin in the air the same number of times on each attempt. Thats an old trick but very difficult to do but has been documented on television and on scam programmes more times than not.

All im saying is that by adding a line of program code into the casino software which instructs the games to take in an approximate % figure that has to come under the definition of fixed in anyones book But anyone who plays at casinos knows that a casino operator is out to make money not provide you with enjoyable entertainment out of the generosity of their good hearts

As you point out earlier though this brand of `fixing` is swept under the carpet and given the term `house edge` which i agree doesnt sound quite as bad and knowing that casinos are in this for the profit every gamer comes to accept this house edge. As i do. as everyone who plays on house egde games does. Doesnt mean you cant win

 

[AudiManinBoro]

You're getting "payout" confused with "outcome".

The "payouts" are deliberately set so that the "outcome" of a random event means the casino always wins in the long run...

hehe somehow i doubt if i won the 2.8 million on mega moolah the casino would ever win in the long run, in fact i can guarantee they wouldnt
and the % ratio is an expression of payout not outcome

 

[Slotster!]

hehe somehow i doubt if i won the 2.8 million on mega moolah the casino would ever win in the long run, in fact i can guarantee they wouldnt
and the % ratio is an expression of payout not outcome

It's not just you. The 2.8 Million Mega Moolah has been seeded already, so yes they would (and do). This isn't an individual thing, it's a casino-wide thing across an infinite period of time.

Simplest explanation... Take the "Green" away from a roulette wheel and throw a ball at it... You've got a true 50/50 chance of hitting red or black. If the casino still decides to payout 48.5% for a colour win - there's your house edge. This makes the games no less random, and certainly not rigged - but it doesn't mean you're getting a matching 'payout' to your 'outcome'. The fact the green is there in the real world is what gives the casino their edge. Rigging/Fixing whatever doesn't come into it - odds do.

 

[happygobrokey]

new from audiman, the only ever random game:

buy a ticket for any amount you wish and get a payout ranging any of the infinite possibilities of numbers that could or might exist.

any other rules or structure would be a rig, and we don't play that way.

 

[winbig]

new from audiman, the only ever random game:

buy a ticket for any amount you wish and get a payout ranging any of the infinite possibilities of numbers that could or might exist.

any other rules or structure would be a rig, and we don't play that way.

How about picking a number from 1 to infinity?

 

[GrandMaster]

hehe somehow i doubt if i won the 2.8 million on mega moolah the casino would ever win in the long run, in fact i can guarantee they wouldnt
and the % ratio is an expression of payout not outcome

You just need a long enough long run. If you play maximum bet at maximum speed for a year, you should lose about 2.8 million.

 

[1819]

The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%.

great point except most people dont realize the payout % advertised on a land based machine is over the life of the machine. when a bank of machines is advertised as paying 98% only one machine in that bank has to do so. the nice thing of playing, in say vegas, is there is a state gaming commission that regulates this for us and most people are still duped into thinking they will get 90 some odd bucks back for every 100 they put in. online there can be no way of knowing this except when they advertise monthly or yearly payout %'s. since there is no gaming commission to veryify this for us we must rely on the honesty of the casino. we all know how that goes.

 

[happygobrokey]

any thread title using all caps and/or using the word "rigged" as a statement of fact is undoubtedly an indicator of objective and thought-provoking content within.

 

[winbig]

great point except most people dont realize the payout % advertised on a land based machine is over the life of the machine. when a bank of machines is advertised as paying 98% only one machine in that bank has to do so. the nice thing of playing, in say vegas, is there is a state gaming commission that regulates this for us and most people are still duped into thinking they will get 90 some odd bucks back for every 100 they put in. online there can be no way of knowing this except when they advertise monthly or yearly payout %'s. since there is no gaming commission to veryify this for us we must rely on the honesty of the casino. we all know how that goes.

I'm not sure when, but all of the billboards you saw when heading to AC that advertised "98% slots payout" and "loosest slots" have disappeared. Not sure if the NJ gaming commission had anything to do with that or not.

 

[1819]

I'm not sure when, but all of the billboards you saw when heading to AC that advertised "98% slots payout" and "loosest slots" have disappeared. Not sure if the NJ gaming commission had anything to do with that or not.[/QUOTE casinos were told they would have to prove they had the "loosest slots" to advertise it. since they all claim the same thing they just stopped advertising it that way.

 

[Rusty]

Sorry mate - I'm no "RTG lover", but your post is nonsense.

Changing the reel bands just changes the payout %.
In no shape or form does that conclude that the spins are still not 100% random.

I've been dabbling with RTG a bit recently, after a long break of about 6-months because I was convinced the payout %'s had been reduced 'across the board' (at least, where I was playing! ).
I have to say that now I do feel I'm getting a fair & reasonable game with RTG slots.

Wow I am surprised at you KK.
Changing the reel bands just changes the payout %?
EXACTLY!
So you think it is ok for a player to play a slot he thinks is 95% and have the reel bands changed without being notified so that slot is in fact 50%.
It can still be random yes but changing the mechanics of a slot that insideously adjust the payout% is the very definition of rigged!
If like me you believe that these adjustments are made and are dependent on past results then you have a very serious issue.

Also you seem to have missed the point that it is only acceptable for payout% to be adjusted through the paytable.
In this way the mechanics of the game are not changed, the changes are transparent and as such players would have a genuine choice as to which Casino has the better payout %.(Assuming they were properly audited,ha!)

Furthermore RTG in its present incarnation would fail the Gambling commisions regulations, there to ensure a game is not rigged, on so many levels it is laughable.
MG are not that much better off.

So it begs the question why are the %payouts hidden and how can they be changed at the operators whim and without the players knowledge without it being anything but rigged.

Far from being nonsense it is simple logical reasoning.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

great point except most people dont realize the payout % advertised on a land based machine is over the life of the machine. when a bank of machines is advertised as paying 98% only one machine in that bank has to do so. the nice thing of playing, in say vegas, is there is a state gaming commission that regulates this for us and most people are still duped into thinking they will get 90 some odd bucks back for every 100 they put in. online there can be no way of knowing this except when they advertise monthly or yearly payout %'s. since there is no gaming commission to veryify this for us we must rely on the honesty of the casino. we all know how that goes.

I know in Vegas or least used to be, another means is the the use of the words pays "UP TO" 99% with the up to in small print not that the masses would know the difference if it was in large print. I assume this technique is still used but I have not paid attention to recently. Another technique that is misleading to me is at the craps table where the word "for" is used as in pays 4 for 1. Most all think that is the same as 4 to 1. Wrong, you will be paid one less unit on a win at 4 for 1 than 4 to 1.

 

[bpb]

How much better would you really feel if someone could absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt, guarantee that any particular slot machine (online or B&M) was 100% random, and that you had an absolutely fair game with a theoretical payout of 90%?

People who are completely content to piss away an expected $10 for every $100 wagered shouldn't lie in bed awake at night contemplating the utter horror of the casino rigging the game to eke out an extra few percent. If you play at $2.50 a spin and 500 spins/hr, then you're spending $125 an hour on your "entertainment" in the best case scenario. I don't think anyone should let concerns of a fair game detract from their entertainment, given how much they are paying for it. Even you 25 cent players are spending over $10/hour. Way more expensive than a movie. And you never jump your bets right? Even when winning? (got to spend that "casino money") If you do, you're probably up in the $20-$30/hr range even if you consider yourself a low roller.

At least blackjack players have a legit concern, as rigging could take a great game from a .1% to 10% advantage. But slots players? Come on ... your money is going down the toilet regardless. Just enjoy the experience while it's circling the drain.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

You just need a long enough long run. If you play maximum bet at maximum speed for a year, you should lose about 2.8 million.

Lol i woudlnt even attempt it.

 

[KasinoKing]

So you think it is ok for a player to play a slot he thinks is 95% and have the reel bands changed without being notified so that slot is in fact 50%.

Absolutely not OK!
However I feel 50% is a bit of an exaggeration.
It has been claimed by posters 'in the know' here that RTG casinos can tweak their slots down to 92, 90 or 88%..? (I can't remember the exact figure).
I did personally feel that RTG globally went even lower than this towards the end of 2006. But it was just a feeling - there was no way I could prove anything.
You know what I did? I stopped playing RTG slots.

It can still be random yes but changing the mechanics of a slot that insidiously adjust the payout% is the very definition of rigged!

No, that is YOUR definition of rigged!

My definition of rigged is when the RNG produces a result which would be a large win, but then the slot software decides by some insidious setting that it wont let you have this win and changes the outcome of the reels accordingly so that you win less, or even nothing.

However, I would agree with you that it's 'rigged' if the actual payout % was set to less than the % advertised / claimed by the casino. But how could you ever prove it?

If like me you believe that these adjustments are made and are dependent on past results then you have a very serious issue.

I don't have any evidence or experience which would lead me to conclusively believe the same as you.
I'm sure you've seen my site & read how I win year after year. How could I possibly believe the casinos are rigged and yet let me keep on winning at the same time?
Does not compute!

Great post though! :notworthy

 

[sweiger]

My definition of rigged is when the RNG produces a result which would be a large win, but then the slot software decides by some insidious setting that it wont let you have this win and changes the outcome of the reels accordingly so that you win less, or even nothing.

However, I would agree with you that it's 'rigged' if the actual payout % was set to less than the % advertised / claimed by the casino. But how could you ever prove it?

Excactly.
+1

 

[steinhaug]

You know what I did? I stopped playing RTG slots.

Now why would you ever want to return to a casino which is seasonally rigging it's slots?

No, that is YOUR definition of rigged!

Lets extend this thought, what if the reelbands are correct until you win, but then to make you go low the reels are altered for a while so that you are more likely to loose than normal... Then when you have lost like 50% of your bankroll the reelbands are back in order. (assuming the RNG is true RNG for this to be a rigging that accually works) Seems to me when MG goes hot you get great reelbands all over the slots - until you win on a slot that is, then it goes cold all over the place (untill enough funds are lost again). The definition of rigged in my head is that the game is manipulated.

My definition of rigged is when the RNG produces a result which would be a large win, but then the slot software decides by some insidious setting that it wont let you have this win and changes the outcome of the reels accordingly so that you win less, or even nothing.

This doesnt apply to atleast MG, since when you spin the wheels the XML feed returned to the casino includes the win, reel positions and everything. The spinning you see on screen is just for show anyway.

How could I possibly believe the casinos are rigged and yet let me keep on winning at the same time?
Does not compute!

Computes nicely for me, given the house usually have a 5% advertised edge, they do accually win and some players will also win. However, here and there the casinoes get greedy and give them selves a 30% house edge. Christmas time sounds perfect when you (running the casino) want to give your family lot's of expensive gifts,

 

[happygobrokey]

boycott slots! what do we want? transparency with respect to slot games! when do we want it? sooner rather than later! come on people, shout with me!

 

[winbig]

To sum this thread up in one sentence:

Those who have won thousands, and gambled it all back are trying to lay blame on something else besides themselves.

kimss: I feel for you, I really do...I've been there myself.

But it was your own fault for getting greedy after winning that much, and playing it all back....as it was mine when I have done the exact same thing in the past. Was it rigged in your favor when you won so much?

 

[steinhaug]

But it was your own fault for getting greedy after winning that much, and playing it all back....as it was mine when I have done the exact same thing in the past. Was it rigged in your favor when you won so much?

I know where you are going with this, and it's like the first rukle in GA (which I have also attended quite a few times some years ago). However, I do feel I've been getting a very unfair run in the online casinoes. I will give this a few more days before I totally quit giving the "gambling theme" more attention.

Cracking the reels however, prooving that the 5 reelers are weighted was a shocker to many people. What is it weighted against? Your overall payout, or the slot %. Sure seems like your overall% since you usually get that win when you need it most of the time.

But you are right, whining in here sure as help doesn't help and makes me come out like a bad looser. If I know I lost in a fair game - no problem, then again - whet the heck is a fair game theese days?

 

[Simmo!]

The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%.

Exactly. My take on this and many other posts is that people totally underestimate. or don't pay attention to, "variance".

1000 spins with nothing, one big win with 95% of your stake back would probably make people think "rigged". It's far more likely to be high variance in play.

 

[Rusty]

I do not accept it is variance at play as regards many slots at many casinos.
This "variance" is far too organised to be coincidental.
This is very noticable when playing with a decent bonus with WR.
As far as changing the reel bands is concerned I am not even sure that some symbols "exist" at all at times.
I can go 80 to 100 spins without the scatter symbol appearing at all on the 1st reel after a decent feature on Ronin.
This is not a one off event it is a fairly regular occurence.
Similar results occur with the scatter/wild symbols in all RTG slots and I have noticed this to a lesser extent with MG slots.
This leaves me in no doubt that the reel bands are changed "on the fly" and worse these changes are effected by past results.
This can work the other way also so that you have more scatter symbols when the software wants you to gain some ground.
That last statement may sound at odds with what I am saying but if you take the time to think about it you will realise it is one and the same thing.
That is the manufacturing/control of payouts.
I can not understand why any REAL player would dismiss my arguments so contemptuosly as some have.
It is in your interests to ahve the games you play be more transparent and have the software providers and casinos more accountable.

 

[steinhaug]

I can not understand why any REAL player would dismiss my arguments so contemptuosly as some have.

I totally agree. Seems every time one tries to talk about this one gets bashed with chaos theory and laws of big numbers. As mentioned before, lots of casinoes have already been busted in cheating. We already know RTG can change payout from casino to casino. Whos to say RTG and MG doesnt have some special "gambler addict" patters installed in their software? Who's to say they are so perfect and nice people? I do not understand this either.

We already know that experts in gambling-addicts and schrinks are involved when creating slot machines as consuktants (was a TV program in the UK some years about this), when to blink - what sounds to use. What if a software (say MG) has implemented a nice feature which manages to "trigger" the typical gambler addict to chase losses. It's simple psycology, all gambling addicts think the same when loosing their heads - so you do not need to be an Einstein to know what to manipulate. The trick however - is making the end result ending on 95% payout or less, without the user having evidence of rigging.

Am I really that paranoid and a sore looser? We just learned that the 5 liners at MG are weighted. Surely that must be a kick in the arse for some in here who all the times throws true RNG at their chest.

I would love if some of you in here would explore the possibility of rigging, instead of just throwing that chaos - you need 100.000.000 spins to be accurate - sentence.

 

[Simmo!]

We had a similar discussion once before...it went along the lines of what constitutes "random". Like GrandMaster says, if published payouts show 95% and one assumes PWC or eCOGRA aren't "in on the con", then it's 95%.

Another argument you could apply: if you had a historic brand name with integrity (aka Ladbrokes, William Hill or Virgin), would you put your whole business at stake by signing up to use rigged software?

I play slots a lot as you well know. Yes I hit loooong dry spells. But I don't feel MG, Wagerworks, Crypto or even RTG are "rigged" - although we all know the latter has % settings.

I think you're too dismissive of the word "variance". It's not just something that means a short bad spell, it can mean something with a very very long bad spell, depending on the slot. Very very very long sometimes! You can have 20 or 30 sessions on Isis and lose every time, then have one monster. I can see why people confuse this as "rigged", but it's not IMO.

If I thought online slots were rigged, I wouldn't play them. I assume you guys have stopped playing now?

 

[steinhaug]

I assume you guys have stopped playing now?

Yes, I have.