WHY REMOTE SLOTS ARE RIGGED.

[AudiManinBoro]

Now you're just getting silly - or trying to wind people up!

By your definition if you took a coin out of your pocket, tossed it 1000 times and found you got 500 heads & 500 tails (give or take 0.5%) that would mean that the coin HAS to be rigged???

No further comment.

Well we are all entitled to our opinions KK so i cant begrudge you that lol
btw it is possible to `rig` the flipping off the coin if the flipper is experienced and skillful enough to flip the coin in the air the same number of times on each attempt. Thats an old trick but very difficult to do but has been documented on television and on scam programmes more times than not.

All im saying is that by adding a line of program code into the casino software which instructs the games to take in an approximate % figure that has to come under the definition of fixed in anyones book But anyone who plays at casinos knows that a casino operator is out to make money not provide you with enjoyable entertainment out of the generosity of their good hearts

As you point out earlier though this brand of `fixing` is swept under the carpet and given the term `house edge` which i agree doesnt sound quite as bad and knowing that casinos are in this for the profit every gamer comes to accept this house edge. As i do. as everyone who plays on house egde games does. Doesnt mean you cant win

 

[AudiManinBoro]

You're getting "payout" confused with "outcome".

The "payouts" are deliberately set so that the "outcome" of a random event means the casino always wins in the long run...

hehe somehow i doubt if i won the 2.8 million on mega moolah the casino would ever win in the long run, in fact i can guarantee they wouldnt
and the % ratio is an expression of payout not outcome

 

[Slotster!]

hehe somehow i doubt if i won the 2.8 million on mega moolah the casino would ever win in the long run, in fact i can guarantee they wouldnt
and the % ratio is an expression of payout not outcome

It's not just you. The 2.8 Million Mega Moolah has been seeded already, so yes they would (and do). This isn't an individual thing, it's a casino-wide thing across an infinite period of time.

Simplest explanation... Take the "Green" away from a roulette wheel and throw a ball at it... You've got a true 50/50 chance of hitting red or black. If the casino still decides to payout 48.5% for a colour win - there's your house edge. This makes the games no less random, and certainly not rigged - but it doesn't mean you're getting a matching 'payout' to your 'outcome'. The fact the green is there in the real world is what gives the casino their edge. Rigging/Fixing whatever doesn't come into it - odds do.

 

[happygobrokey]

new from audiman, the only ever random game:

buy a ticket for any amount you wish and get a payout ranging any of the infinite possibilities of numbers that could or might exist.

any other rules or structure would be a rig, and we don't play that way.

 

[winbig]

new from audiman, the only ever random game:

buy a ticket for any amount you wish and get a payout ranging any of the infinite possibilities of numbers that could or might exist.

any other rules or structure would be a rig, and we don't play that way.

How about picking a number from 1 to infinity?

 

[GrandMaster]

hehe somehow i doubt if i won the 2.8 million on mega moolah the casino would ever win in the long run, in fact i can guarantee they wouldnt
and the % ratio is an expression of payout not outcome

You just need a long enough long run. If you play maximum bet at maximum speed for a year, you should lose about 2.8 million.

 

[1819]

The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%.

great point except most people dont realize the payout % advertised on a land based machine is over the life of the machine. when a bank of machines is advertised as paying 98% only one machine in that bank has to do so. the nice thing of playing, in say vegas, is there is a state gaming commission that regulates this for us and most people are still duped into thinking they will get 90 some odd bucks back for every 100 they put in. online there can be no way of knowing this except when they advertise monthly or yearly payout %'s. since there is no gaming commission to veryify this for us we must rely on the honesty of the casino. we all know how that goes.

 

[happygobrokey]

any thread title using all caps and/or using the word "rigged" as a statement of fact is undoubtedly an indicator of objective and thought-provoking content within.

 

[winbig]

great point except most people dont realize the payout % advertised on a land based machine is over the life of the machine. when a bank of machines is advertised as paying 98% only one machine in that bank has to do so. the nice thing of playing, in say vegas, is there is a state gaming commission that regulates this for us and most people are still duped into thinking they will get 90 some odd bucks back for every 100 they put in. online there can be no way of knowing this except when they advertise monthly or yearly payout %'s. since there is no gaming commission to veryify this for us we must rely on the honesty of the casino. we all know how that goes.

I'm not sure when, but all of the billboards you saw when heading to AC that advertised "98% slots payout" and "loosest slots" have disappeared. Not sure if the NJ gaming commission had anything to do with that or not.

 

[1819]

I'm not sure when, but all of the billboards you saw when heading to AC that advertised "98% slots payout" and "loosest slots" have disappeared. Not sure if the NJ gaming commission had anything to do with that or not.[/QUOTE casinos were told they would have to prove they had the "loosest slots" to advertise it. since they all claim the same thing they just stopped advertising it that way.

 

[Rusty]

Sorry mate - I'm no "RTG lover", but your post is nonsense.

Changing the reel bands just changes the payout %.
In no shape or form does that conclude that the spins are still not 100% random.

I've been dabbling with RTG a bit recently, after a long break of about 6-months because I was convinced the payout %'s had been reduced 'across the board' (at least, where I was playing! ).
I have to say that now I do feel I'm getting a fair & reasonable game with RTG slots.

Wow I am surprised at you KK.
Changing the reel bands just changes the payout %?
EXACTLY!
So you think it is ok for a player to play a slot he thinks is 95% and have the reel bands changed without being notified so that slot is in fact 50%.
It can still be random yes but changing the mechanics of a slot that insideously adjust the payout% is the very definition of rigged!
If like me you believe that these adjustments are made and are dependent on past results then you have a very serious issue.

Also you seem to have missed the point that it is only acceptable for payout% to be adjusted through the paytable.
In this way the mechanics of the game are not changed, the changes are transparent and as such players would have a genuine choice as to which Casino has the better payout %.(Assuming they were properly audited,ha!)

Furthermore RTG in its present incarnation would fail the Gambling commisions regulations, there to ensure a game is not rigged, on so many levels it is laughable.
MG are not that much better off.

So it begs the question why are the %payouts hidden and how can they be changed at the operators whim and without the players knowledge without it being anything but rigged.

Far from being nonsense it is simple logical reasoning.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

great point except most people dont realize the payout % advertised on a land based machine is over the life of the machine. when a bank of machines is advertised as paying 98% only one machine in that bank has to do so. the nice thing of playing, in say vegas, is there is a state gaming commission that regulates this for us and most people are still duped into thinking they will get 90 some odd bucks back for every 100 they put in. online there can be no way of knowing this except when they advertise monthly or yearly payout %'s. since there is no gaming commission to veryify this for us we must rely on the honesty of the casino. we all know how that goes.

I know in Vegas or least used to be, another means is the the use of the words pays "UP TO" 99% with the up to in small print not that the masses would know the difference if it was in large print. I assume this technique is still used but I have not paid attention to recently. Another technique that is misleading to me is at the craps table where the word "for" is used as in pays 4 for 1. Most all think that is the same as 4 to 1. Wrong, you will be paid one less unit on a win at 4 for 1 than 4 to 1.

 

[bpb]

How much better would you really feel if someone could absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt, guarantee that any particular slot machine (online or B&M) was 100% random, and that you had an absolutely fair game with a theoretical payout of 90%?

People who are completely content to piss away an expected $10 for every $100 wagered shouldn't lie in bed awake at night contemplating the utter horror of the casino rigging the game to eke out an extra few percent. If you play at $2.50 a spin and 500 spins/hr, then you're spending $125 an hour on your "entertainment" in the best case scenario. I don't think anyone should let concerns of a fair game detract from their entertainment, given how much they are paying for it. Even you 25 cent players are spending over $10/hour. Way more expensive than a movie. And you never jump your bets right? Even when winning? (got to spend that "casino money") If you do, you're probably up in the $20-$30/hr range even if you consider yourself a low roller.

At least blackjack players have a legit concern, as rigging could take a great game from a .1% to 10% advantage. But slots players? Come on ... your money is going down the toilet regardless. Just enjoy the experience while it's circling the drain.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

You just need a long enough long run. If you play maximum bet at maximum speed for a year, you should lose about 2.8 million.

Lol i woudlnt even attempt it.

 

[KasinoKing]

So you think it is ok for a player to play a slot he thinks is 95% and have the reel bands changed without being notified so that slot is in fact 50%.

Absolutely not OK!
However I feel 50% is a bit of an exaggeration.
It has been claimed by posters 'in the know' here that RTG casinos can tweak their slots down to 92, 90 or 88%..? (I can't remember the exact figure).
I did personally feel that RTG globally went even lower than this towards the end of 2006. But it was just a feeling - there was no way I could prove anything.
You know what I did? I stopped playing RTG slots.

It can still be random yes but changing the mechanics of a slot that insidiously adjust the payout% is the very definition of rigged!

No, that is YOUR definition of rigged!

My definition of rigged is when the RNG produces a result which would be a large win, but then the slot software decides by some insidious setting that it wont let you have this win and changes the outcome of the reels accordingly so that you win less, or even nothing.

However, I would agree with you that it's 'rigged' if the actual payout % was set to less than the % advertised / claimed by the casino. But how could you ever prove it?

If like me you believe that these adjustments are made and are dependent on past results then you have a very serious issue.

I don't have any evidence or experience which would lead me to conclusively believe the same as you.
I'm sure you've seen my site & read how I win year after year. How could I possibly believe the casinos are rigged and yet let me keep on winning at the same time?
Does not compute!

Great post though! :notworthy

 

[sweiger]

My definition of rigged is when the RNG produces a result which would be a large win, but then the slot software decides by some insidious setting that it wont let you have this win and changes the outcome of the reels accordingly so that you win less, or even nothing.

However, I would agree with you that it's 'rigged' if the actual payout % was set to less than the % advertised / claimed by the casino. But how could you ever prove it?

Excactly.
+1

 

[steinhaug]

You know what I did? I stopped playing RTG slots.

Now why would you ever want to return to a casino which is seasonally rigging it's slots?

No, that is YOUR definition of rigged!

Lets extend this thought, what if the reelbands are correct until you win, but then to make you go low the reels are altered for a while so that you are more likely to loose than normal... Then when you have lost like 50% of your bankroll the reelbands are back in order. (assuming the RNG is true RNG for this to be a rigging that accually works) Seems to me when MG goes hot you get great reelbands all over the slots - until you win on a slot that is, then it goes cold all over the place (untill enough funds are lost again). The definition of rigged in my head is that the game is manipulated.

My definition of rigged is when the RNG produces a result which would be a large win, but then the slot software decides by some insidious setting that it wont let you have this win and changes the outcome of the reels accordingly so that you win less, or even nothing.

This doesnt apply to atleast MG, since when you spin the wheels the XML feed returned to the casino includes the win, reel positions and everything. The spinning you see on screen is just for show anyway.

How could I possibly believe the casinos are rigged and yet let me keep on winning at the same time?
Does not compute!

Computes nicely for me, given the house usually have a 5% advertised edge, they do accually win and some players will also win. However, here and there the casinoes get greedy and give them selves a 30% house edge. Christmas time sounds perfect when you (running the casino) want to give your family lot's of expensive gifts,

 

[happygobrokey]

boycott slots! what do we want? transparency with respect to slot games! when do we want it? sooner rather than later! come on people, shout with me!

 

[winbig]

To sum this thread up in one sentence:

Those who have won thousands, and gambled it all back are trying to lay blame on something else besides themselves.

kimss: I feel for you, I really do...I've been there myself.

But it was your own fault for getting greedy after winning that much, and playing it all back....as it was mine when I have done the exact same thing in the past. Was it rigged in your favor when you won so much?

 

[steinhaug]

But it was your own fault for getting greedy after winning that much, and playing it all back....as it was mine when I have done the exact same thing in the past. Was it rigged in your favor when you won so much?

I know where you are going with this, and it's like the first rukle in GA (which I have also attended quite a few times some years ago). However, I do feel I've been getting a very unfair run in the online casinoes. I will give this a few more days before I totally quit giving the "gambling theme" more attention.

Cracking the reels however, prooving that the 5 reelers are weighted was a shocker to many people. What is it weighted against? Your overall payout, or the slot %. Sure seems like your overall% since you usually get that win when you need it most of the time.

But you are right, whining in here sure as help doesn't help and makes me come out like a bad looser. If I know I lost in a fair game - no problem, then again - whet the heck is a fair game theese days?

 

[Simmo!]

The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%.

Exactly. My take on this and many other posts is that people totally underestimate. or don't pay attention to, "variance".

1000 spins with nothing, one big win with 95% of your stake back would probably make people think "rigged". It's far more likely to be high variance in play.

 

[Rusty]

I do not accept it is variance at play as regards many slots at many casinos.
This "variance" is far too organised to be coincidental.
This is very noticable when playing with a decent bonus with WR.
As far as changing the reel bands is concerned I am not even sure that some symbols "exist" at all at times.
I can go 80 to 100 spins without the scatter symbol appearing at all on the 1st reel after a decent feature on Ronin.
This is not a one off event it is a fairly regular occurence.
Similar results occur with the scatter/wild symbols in all RTG slots and I have noticed this to a lesser extent with MG slots.
This leaves me in no doubt that the reel bands are changed "on the fly" and worse these changes are effected by past results.
This can work the other way also so that you have more scatter symbols when the software wants you to gain some ground.
That last statement may sound at odds with what I am saying but if you take the time to think about it you will realise it is one and the same thing.
That is the manufacturing/control of payouts.
I can not understand why any REAL player would dismiss my arguments so contemptuosly as some have.
It is in your interests to ahve the games you play be more transparent and have the software providers and casinos more accountable.

 

[steinhaug]

I can not understand why any REAL player would dismiss my arguments so contemptuosly as some have.

I totally agree. Seems every time one tries to talk about this one gets bashed with chaos theory and laws of big numbers. As mentioned before, lots of casinoes have already been busted in cheating. We already know RTG can change payout from casino to casino. Whos to say RTG and MG doesnt have some special "gambler addict" patters installed in their software? Who's to say they are so perfect and nice people? I do not understand this either.

We already know that experts in gambling-addicts and schrinks are involved when creating slot machines as consuktants (was a TV program in the UK some years about this), when to blink - what sounds to use. What if a software (say MG) has implemented a nice feature which manages to "trigger" the typical gambler addict to chase losses. It's simple psycology, all gambling addicts think the same when loosing their heads - so you do not need to be an Einstein to know what to manipulate. The trick however - is making the end result ending on 95% payout or less, without the user having evidence of rigging.

Am I really that paranoid and a sore looser? We just learned that the 5 liners at MG are weighted. Surely that must be a kick in the arse for some in here who all the times throws true RNG at their chest.

I would love if some of you in here would explore the possibility of rigging, instead of just throwing that chaos - you need 100.000.000 spins to be accurate - sentence.

 

[Simmo!]

We had a similar discussion once before...it went along the lines of what constitutes "random". Like GrandMaster says, if published payouts show 95% and one assumes PWC or eCOGRA aren't "in on the con", then it's 95%.

Another argument you could apply: if you had a historic brand name with integrity (aka Ladbrokes, William Hill or Virgin), would you put your whole business at stake by signing up to use rigged software?

I play slots a lot as you well know. Yes I hit loooong dry spells. But I don't feel MG, Wagerworks, Crypto or even RTG are "rigged" - although we all know the latter has % settings.

I think you're too dismissive of the word "variance". It's not just something that means a short bad spell, it can mean something with a very very long bad spell, depending on the slot. Very very very long sometimes! You can have 20 or 30 sessions on Isis and lose every time, then have one monster. I can see why people confuse this as "rigged", but it's not IMO.

If I thought online slots were rigged, I wouldn't play them. I assume you guys have stopped playing now?

 

[steinhaug]

I assume you guys have stopped playing now?

Yes, I have.