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WHY REMOTE SLOTS ARE RIGGED.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Rusty, Aug 12, 2007.

    Aug 12, 2007
  1. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Just for Mike:cool:

    First off, what do I mean by rigged?
    I mean that the results ARE influenced in some way and/or the game conditions do not remain unchanged.
    In other words there is more than just a RNG at work.

    Second off we need to know how genuine/unrigged software should be programmed to give a random and fair vidoe slot game.


    1) Each result should be independent from all previous results

    2) each result should have an equal probability of occuring

    3) the number of combinations of winning results should remain constant

    4) the payout % of the slot is determined by all possible line combinations
    and the total returns resulting from these combinations.Thus the payout % of a slot should only be adjustable by adjusting the paytable and not altering the mechanics of the game.

    Now let us take each point in detail and see how RTG and MG compare.

    1) Is each result independent of all previous results?

    This is impossible to prove either way but experience of poor results after a decent winning combination could be viewed as evidence to suggest this is not the case, especially with RTG.However there is no proof that the games are rigged in this way.

    2) Does each result have an equal opportunity of occuring?

    Here I think there is evidence to suggest this is not the case. As far as I am aware the Reel layout of a game can be changed (RTG) to affect the possible outcomes. If this is a fact then this constitutes a rigged game. Also if the layout remains the same but the likelyhood of a symbol appearing is lessened (scatter/wild symbols for eg) then this would also constitute a rigged game.

    3) Do the number of combinations of winning results remain the same?

    Obviously if the reel layout is changed then this is obviously not the case and so the game can be described as rigged.

    4) Is the payout% adjustable at RTG?= YES at MG= UNKNOWN
    Is the payout % adjusted by changing the paytable: RTG= NO MG=YES
    Therefore the only conclusion can be that the payout % of RTG slots is adjusted by changing the mechanics of the game.
    This means that the slots can not be truely random



    Remember it is the Casinos that state their games are completely random if they were a little more honest then I wouldn't have to state the obvious.

    Controversial?
    Not really
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Aug 12, 2007
  3. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Sorry mate - I'm no "RTG lover", but your post is nonsense.

    Changing the reel bands just changes the payout %.
    In no shape or form does that conclude that the spins are still not 100% random.

    I've been dabbling with RTG a bit recently, after a long break of about 6-months because I was convinced the payout %'s had been reduced 'across the board' (at least, where I was playing! :mad:).
    I have to say that now I do feel I'm getting a fair & reasonable game with RTG slots.
    :thumbsup:
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Aug 12, 2007
  5. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I won $1450 from $200 in deposits at an RTG casino a few weeks ago. 100% of that win was from slots.

    Was that rigged as well? ;)
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Aug 12, 2007
  7. kimss

    kimss Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Software developer
    Location:
    Norway
    I would add some more points, that I seem to be getting more and more statistical "proof" of now in MG.

    1. Does loosing big in a game, make you win big in the next one?

    Given we are working on 95% payout in MG:

    2. When having a global payout over 100%, why is is dry run after dry run all over the board until you are below and then get back upto around 95%

    I gave an excersice a week or so ago, but nobody seemed to be interested in taking it. A lot of people seems to trust their gut feeling that all people are nice and all is true random - nonsence!

    And to winbig, it seems to me that in all player accounts you get your winning streak one time which will go above 100%, but you should try those 1400 and keep going another day, you will then feel the MG RNG - but that is my suspicion. I store all my records, and I have quite a few casinoes now where I see this happends, you win big in the biginning - enough for playing fools like me to be bitten by the game and think this is the place to play - and then you end up toggling that 95% percent.

    Final question:

    3. Are we playing against ourselves, (95%), or are we playing against all the other players? If you dont get this question, what Im saying is - if you were to win huge on Thunderstruck and I login after you - should I expect to win anything? The correct answer would be no - just as if you loose big - I would have a bigger expectation to win back some of your loss.

    Atleast this is the way it works on landbased casinoes.

    Great post Rusty!
     
    2 people like this.
  8. Aug 13, 2007
  9. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    Totally agree kimss, slots are computers and if a slot has no money to pay out believe me it wont, which by definition defies the fact that random can truly exist. And of course nobody cheats in an industry that is very hard to check and loosely regulated do they? :D
     
  10. Aug 13, 2007
  11. refre

    refre Senior lurker PABnonaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    Professional slot player
    Location:
    .
    I do sometimes get the feeling we are playing against ourselves. At least when it comes to long dry spells, followed by a big win that takes to you back to where you started, +/- a few percent.

    Playing live in a casino you may win a lot on a slot which is "due", because someone made it this way by wagering a lot without winning anything.
    But you might find that the machine doesn't pay any since it just awarded a jackpot to someone else.

    If this is true, it implicates you have make "your own" slots "due" online. You can't rely on the thousands of others playing the same game to do it for you :p
     
  12. Aug 13, 2007
  13. Kaynos72

    Kaynos72 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    My job sucks
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Care to explain how you did that ? It was not a RJ i hope ?
     
  14. Aug 13, 2007
  15. kimss

    kimss Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Software developer
    Location:
    Norway
    I for one belive this is the case, and all my plays at different casinoes online (MG) seems to back up my theory. You can infact test this yourself since the freeplay in MG now is edentical as real play. Register accounts in several casinoes and start wagering, you will most likely in the first 10.000 spins have two wins close by within your wagering range that takes you above 100% payout. Somewhat $1000-$10.000 in winnings, from this point - astalavista. Not straight away, you keep sailing on 100% payout for a 100-1000 spins, but then astalavista. You will most likely need to loose down to below 95% global payout, and the more you dip the bigger win next time (but not far above 95% global).

    I will continue the above talk som other day and also bring along some statistics to back up my arguments.
     
  16. Aug 13, 2007
  17. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I can't be bothered to argue about this any more, since some of you have made up your minds.

    But here's a little thought for the non-randomists:-

    A guy walks in to a casino and straight to the nearest roulette wheel.
    He plonks $1,000 slap bang on number 32-Red ;)
    What do you know - it's his lucky day and 32-Red hits!
    He picks up his $36,000 and trots off home - happy as Larry!

    The other 6 players round the wheel can't believe what they just saw, but carry on betting their $30-$50 spins, just as they were before...

    Now are you telling me that some microchip or super electronic system will now make sure no-one wins too much so that the roulette wheel can 'get it's money back'? :what:

    No.
    It doesn't have to.
    No matter what players bet, over time the wheel will make exactly 2.7027%
    It does not need to be rigged - the maths ensures the wheel can not lose.
    The exact same theory can be applied to (online) slots.
    The mathematics of the paytable combined with all possible outcomes of the reels give each machine an exact fixed house edge over an infinite time.
    If you, or anyone else just hit the jackpot at odds of 250,000 to 1, you'd still have a 1 in 250,000 chance of hitting it again the very next spin!

    I'm not saying 100% definitely that online slots are NOT rigged (who knows?), but I am saying that 100% definitely they do not NEED to be for the casino to be making a good income!
    KK
     
    9 people like this.
  18. Aug 13, 2007
  19. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    Totally agree! I'm just wondering however if some operators maybe get 'greedy'?
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Aug 13, 2007
  21. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    That's why you quit while you're ahead. ;)

    You're going to end up losing most, if not all, of it at ANY casino if you keep playing long enough. - online or off, it doesn't matter. Nor does it mater what software you're playing on - RTG or not.
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Aug 14, 2007
  23. kimss

    kimss Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Software developer
    Location:
    Norway
    Well... Here is my rant for the night, :D

    Then you and I agree to the fullest, to bad we disagree, :D

    Yes, you have a chanche of hitting the jackpot 100 times in a row, it's random I know... However it sure doesnt feel that way. It feels like you are playing against yourself, and against a global 95% payout which has in its algoryth to bumb above 100% in the beginning of your account somewhere. I have done this to many times to count now, and it do really looks "patternish" since I can predict what happends.

    Play 5.000 - 10.000 spins and you WILL win above 100%, then float a while without winning or loosing - then you start falling and will ajoust on 95%. Have som fun in funmode and do the excercise I offered 2 weeks ago. Seems to me far to people have an opinion on 100% fairplay, however we know many softwares already being caught in cheating. Whos to say the rest doesnt? Would be dumb of them not to since it's so much money involved, and since we players are pretty "dumb" and patternish aswell, creating a system which manipulates the typical gambler and also have a math genious which balances the payouts in a waythanks to low variance so that the global is 95% anyway - genious!
     
  24. Aug 14, 2007
  25. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%.
     
  26. Aug 14, 2007
  27. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    A slot does not have to pay out, the casino has to.
     
  28. Aug 14, 2007
  29. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    And `something` ensuring the wheel CANNOT lose is not a definition of rigged KK cos it sure is in my book lol TRULY random MEANS that there could never be no % setting. The fact that there is, shows random doesnt exist. Something which ensures the wheel cannot lose and will always get to 2.7027 % is fixed, it HAS to be by its very definition.
     
  30. Aug 14, 2007
  31. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    But the slot is the means in which the casino pays out. If the slot has paid out more than the % it allows it will not pay out.
     
  32. Aug 14, 2007
  33. kimss

    kimss Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Software developer
    Location:
    Norway
    I totally agree, if the random was truly random some casinoes would have 300% payout one month and maby 10% another month due to the fact that two huge jackpots can come on two clicks in a row... Wakeup call - they never do!

    KK - Your reasoning are nice, however it doesn't add up in the real world when you look at the "logic" behind it...

    I would love to see a MG casino have a payout above 300% one month, that would be sweet! It would truly be random!
     
  34. Aug 14, 2007
  35. sweiger

    sweiger Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    IT consultant (IBM Mainframe)
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    That would be highly possible, if the casino only had a few players. But the fact that most casinos have a turnover made by many players, ensures that on a monthly basis the payout% will fall within the expected, more or less.
     
  36. Aug 14, 2007
  37. AudiManinBoro

    AudiManinBoro Ueber Meister MM

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    UK
    very true Sweiger but a truly random casino would not HAVE a % ratio as Kimss already said because random cannot be predicted except by laws of chaos theory which again cannot be accuratly proven itself lol the mere fact that % ratios exist indicate that the casinos are `manipulated? rigged? altered? set? use whichever word you like they are all equally valid :) because they all have them. not that this bothers me, manipulated or not their fun to play and i win occasionally so that will do me :D :thumbsup:
     
  38. Aug 14, 2007
  39. sweiger

    sweiger Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    IT consultant (IBM Mainframe)
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    As GrandMaster said:
    "The law of large numbers implies that if you play a slot machine with 95% theoretical payout, then in the long run your return from the machine will tend to 95%."

    That means, on a short scale, big swings can (and will) occur.
    Make 100 spins on a 95% slot. You might bust quickly, and you might end up with 2000% payout or more...or less. It's random at work.
    Make a million spins on the same slot, and your return will most certainly be close to 95%. That is also random at work, although it might not seem so to you.

    Nobody can predict what will happen in 100 spins (unfortunately ;) ), but in 1,000,000 spins, this "law of large numbers" will have shown its effect, and one can predict that the payout% will be very close to the calculated %.
     

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