Wow, there is a lot going on in this thread.
Let me try and answer:
Geez Nicolas - Slotomatic has a genuine gripe after waiting almost a week for his money, but instead of apologising for the ridiculous amount of time you correct him and say it is '4 business days', and point him to the terms. Nice way to put someone offside.
I'm merely pointing out that his particular payout is not delayed; not when 4 business days have gone by. We have a right to have our terms and conditions. Even if you don't like them. We have gone over this many times, in several threads.
There have been a few delays, I'm not denying it. In my post I'm simply differentiating real delays (past the 5 business day point), from player frustration.
And yes, as I have said before, we will change our T&Cs to lower payout time. Until then, it is UNREASONABLE to expect payout in anything other then our state time frame.
It is like me going to a bank and seeing that foreign checks take up to 1 week to clear. Then going to the teller and get angry because I didn't get it after 3 days. There is little the teller can do other then to point the customer to the 1 week time frame that was originally stated. I already said, the SUGGESTION to reduce our STATED payout time is something I appreciate and we are working on. Despite your disbelief.
Also, with this I'm not denying the existence of a few delays, just differentiating that from player frustration.
The whole 'business day' concept is a load of rubbish - what is the difference between 'business days' and weekend when it comes to waiting??? I mean, the cashout is just sitting there just the same as any other day isnt it??? If you cashout on Wednesday, why cant you be paid on Monday (which is 5 days of waiting)??
Its just another way of making your 1 week + cashout times look a bit more palatable - 2-5 business days looks a lot better than 7 days doesnt it??
I don't mean to be un-polite, but plenty of businesses use 'business days' as a way to count time. Online casinos hardly invented it.
I also think it is deceptive advertising, because NOBODY is being paid in 2 or 3 business days and a very few in 4 - so you no right to state anything less than 5 business days anyway. IMO its the kind of spin we see from Rogue operators.
Some players are paid in that time frame. You just don't see them complain.
Mind you, why arent Saturdays and Sundays 'business days'..??
Again, we didn't invent the concept of business days.
Everyone needs to understand that Nicolas and other managers have NO control over how fast your cashouts are paid, and are either not robust enough to admit it or they are being made to tow the 'party line'.
Nicolas, I know you have tried really hard to be helpful and responsive at CM but you can keep spraying manure with cologne until the cows come home but everyone will still pick up the smell - some may take longer, but in the end they will. If you were really serious about being honest and helping players, you would post here exactly what the problem is with Rival cashouts (we all know whats going on) and what is being done to fix it.
I have a feeling, however, that nobody wants to fix it.
We don't process payouts ourselves. That is correct. But we are a well backed company. If Rival were to disappear, we have the resources to get a new software provider and pay players. We have more control then you might think.
Payout delays are due to two combined issues. #1, we lost some processors, which cost us a huge amount of money. It takes time to re-route money from cash reserves to pay players on deposits we never actually received.
#2, we are having some internal issues regarding bank accounts, currencies, and international money transfers. I can't explain in full detail, as it would give away too much confidential information, but Rival is working on fixing the issue. We should be operating back to normal before the months end.
I'm sorry about the issue. I agree Rival should be more transparent about it. It is actually something I am working with them on.
And 100% yes, we want to fix this. We know players have to be our #1 focus. That is why even though I'm an affiliate manager, I'm answering this player forum.
Mark my words, the players waiting a week or more for their money now wont be coming back later - whereas someone you pay in 24 hours will probably be back putting money in the next day. You guys at Rival just dont get it, and I doubt you ever will.
I get that very well. That is why we will be bringing down our payout time frames. You have my word on that.
If we don't do it in the next 12 months, I won't be here. At least to 48hours. Simple as that.
Its only a matter of time now before white labels start withering on the vine, being deserted by people sick of having their money held hostage. On a personal note Nicolas, I hope it isnt you as I think you are a good person - you just picked the wrong horse IMO.
I agree. Thanks for the kind thought!
It happens a lot more than you think & I see it happen as an affiliate. So I get screwed by it too.
I'd add more details on how it's orchestrated but doing would be a security risk.
Cheers
Dave
100% correct. Online casinos are targets for fraud since we have little recourse to fight charge backs.
The way I see it VR should start paying within 2-3 days at the most if they want to implement a compulsory 48-hour cashout rule. You dont have to announce it first before actually doing it. If you cannot meet it occasionally fine. However, it does seem that nearly everyone is paid in exactly 5 working days and there are many instances, albeit for different Rival casinos that include VR, where this timeframe is exceeded.
Many forum members may still recall the period in 2008 where players were not paid in 2-3 months by Rival casinos bar slotocash. There were definitely financial problems with them. Somehow they were injected with some cash and players got paid again. Then things got a turn for the worse with ridiculous bonus offers, balances having to be zeroed out before bonus playthroughs are nullified and then a very strict implementation of the 5-day cashout rule. First, most support staff were apologetic when it took the full 5 days for payment. Then, they got irritated when flooded with enquiries and told players off by saying the 5-day rule is stated in the Ts and Cs. A short while ago, they say that the 5-day processing period after the withdrawal has been approved and now all hell breaks loose and the minimum (not maximum) period for withdrawals is 5 business days.
Nothing against VR but I am taking this opportunity to remind Rival casinos that this is not the first time they are pulling stunts like this. Players may have short memories but if they continue doing this, players may feel that they are being pushed over the edge and could gang together for a total boycott of Rival casinos especially when it is pretty obvious that 90% of the Rivals are white-label casinos and probably owned by the same interests as they cannot make their own decisions.
There is a lot to your post chuchu. I mostly agree. We are working on changing the exact things you are mentioning.
I thank you for the advice.
Rival has been shafting players ever since they 1/2 the pay tables on most of their slots back some 3 years ago. Since no players boycotted that, these flakey pay-outs are merely another in a long list of screw the player philosophy the Rival juggernaut has obviously subscribed to.
We cut our pay tables in half? Really? Can you prove this?
I think both Brian and I would love to see this wild accusation proven. I wouldn't be working where I am if you could prove it. And the reason I know you can't is because I can see our payouts; which are very high to say the least.
They are also stated on each game.
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, the processing companies are kicking Rival to the curb, instead of it being the other way around
Another wild accusation. Which is untrue. Processors keep huge percentages of deposits AND payouts. Your claim doesn't make any sense. Why would they cut us off? They are making the money.
Honestly, AussieDave, there are a few REAL things to complain about us:
1- Payout time of 5 business days
2- Customer Service can use improvement.
And most recently
3- A very small % of deposits being delayed.
I haven't found anything else that is a real complaint, and not some wild accusation. If I'm missing something, please forgive me. If you can explain without wild, unproven accusations, I'd be more then glad to hear you out.
I've taken a screen cap of the About Us page located at:
XXXhttp://www.vegasregalcasino.com/about/en
Of this I've highlighted words and statements, there meanings listed below:
(dictionary extracts from
)
Experienced
Wise or skillful in a particular field through experience: an experienced teacher.
Safe
Secure from liability to harm, injury, danger, or risk: a safe place.
Responsible
Involving accountability or responsibility: a responsible position.
Rewarding
Affording satisfaction, valuable experience, or the like; worthwhile.
Searching
Examining carefully or thoroughly: a searching inspection.
Quick
Done, proceeding, or occurring with promptness or rapidity, as an action, process, etc.; prompt; immediate: a quick response.
5 business days for a cash out is certainly
NOT QUICK. Acceptable industry payments are 24-48 hours (that's 1 - 2 days).
Telling peeps to read the T&C's and all the other semantic puffery you subscribe to, in my book, means jack. When are you going to stop jerking the OP and other players...
I'm sorry, but if you think that reading Terms and Conditions is 'puffery' and 'means jack', then I'm not sure we can get anywhere. If you have VALID complaints and suggestions that I haven't already addressed in this and other threads, then I'd love to hear them.
We really care what you have to say.
No one should have to PM you or jump through these type of hoops to get paid
That's the BIG concept you just don't get!
You are right. However, do keep in mind every company has issues. Players have complained even of the casinos you put as an example of good service; like
32red. That is why we have reps here to answer them. As a safety net for those who slip through the cracks. I think this is a good thing, and not something bad as you painted it.
Let me remind you and every other Rival casino it's the players that keep Vegas Regal Casino and other Rival casinos in business.
We know this, I wouldn't be on this forum, answering all complains, both true and otherwise, if I didn't know what you stated.
Please don't take offense Dave, I'm trying to collect any and all valid suggestions and complaints and answer each one. I wouldn't be doing this if we didn't care.
Nicholas, I sent you a PM with my details as I am in the same boat as a couple of posters. Hopefully you can shed a little light.
In a nutshell though, I waited a week before inquiring with chat. I'll only post part of it, as the support was relatively quick and friendly, but essentially I got no real answers, only non answers really.
You are now chatting with 'Robert'
Robert: Welcome to casino Live Chat. How may I help you?
Liz: Hello, I'm checking on my withdrawal. It has been a week, including 5 business days. Thank You.account name: email:
Robert: One moment please.
Liz: ok
Robert: The withdrawal is currently in processing.
Liz: What does that mean, it has been in processing since last Monday?
Robert: It takes an average of 2-5 business days to process a withdrawal, so yes it has been. Today marks the fifth business day.
Liz: So it will be complete today?
Robert: It usually does clear by the fifth business day, keep in mind though that it could take a bit longer as this is an average.
Liz: How much longer? Your terms state 2-5 days?
Robert: It could take a couple of business days longer, it happens. Does not happen all too often, but it happens. But at this time there is nothing wrong with the cashout, and it's currently in processing.
Liz: I understand that it is in processing, its just not a helpful term when I don't know when I will get it.
Liz: Thanks anyway
Robert: You are very welcome.
Robert: Have a nice day.
I have nothing to say other then we are very sorry. We know we need to improve our customer service. No excuses. I have sent you a PM to give you some form of compensation for your frustrating experience.
We have STILL to hear a blow by blow account of the timeline of a cashout, from submission by the player, to arrival in their bank/ewallet account. We know the speeds of some stages in the process, AND we know how fast COMPUTERS react to input - it's IMMEDIATE, not even 0.1 "business days". Whether a day is a business one or not ONLY matters if something is being done that CANNOT be automated by computer. Even B & M companies do most of their transactions by computer now, except for cash & cheques. These can be resolved at the end of EACH business day, although in practive BANKS take 2-3 business days, although this is about to change because politicians believe it holds back the economy.
Here is how it SHOULD work.
1) Player submits withdrawal - request enters queue (automated by computer, INSTANT).
2) Withdrawal checked, and marked for processing - 1 business day
3) Withdrawal passed for processing in next batch - by computer - INSTANT
4) Batch is processed - NEXT business day (total 2 business days so far).
5) To webwallet - INSTANT, should arrive IMMEDIATELY batched withdrawals for that day are run, and this would be by the end of the business day.
OCCASIONALLY this might go into the following business day, but this would NOT be the norm.
6) To bank - since banks take around 3 business days to pass an inbound payment to a customers account, it is ONLY this method that should be taking 5 business days as the norm.
Other than the delays caused by banks, it is Rival processing that are responsible for stretching out stages 1-3 from 2 business days to 5 business days or more. It may not seem that much more, but the COMPETITION do things FAR better, and THIS is what is now considered the norm.
What exactly happens in these missing 3 business days in the Rival process, that are clearly not needed to do the actual work of processing?
Why are ALL Rivals tarred with the same brush, and the good operators get frustrated trying to break the mold?
Easy:-
1) MOST Rival casinos are "white labels", merely MANAGED on behalf of Bonne Chance, either by employed managers, or part stakeholders. These have little independence of action, and must "toe the party line" on many things.
2) The "white label" brands are required to LIE about this underlying structure, and market themselves as completely independent casinos, or small groups of "sister" casinos. This is to fool players into thinking that Rival merely licence the software to independent casinos, or casino groups, just in the same manner other software licencing structures work.
This means that any operator who REALLY has extensive independence of action is merely thought to be operating (2) above when they say this to players.
This is because time, and the intelligence of the player community, has long since "busted" (1) & (2), yet Rival are STILL pretending it works, and are STILL thinking they are fooling the players.
Some operators have given up the pretence of (2), whilst Rival and others are still sticking to it.
I'm not sure you understand the exact situation of each casino in relationship to Rival.
Just as a hint, why do some 'white labels' pay players and affiliates at different times? Why do some 'white labels' auto bonus ban players while others don't? Why are some applying different rules to different players?
The exact legal structure is not something for public message boards, but not all 'white labels' have the same degree of independence or FINANCIAL backing.
I can assure you some Rival 'white labels' have strong backing and could open a new casino under a new software and pay players if Rival was to go down. Which isn't going to happen, quite the contrary. The evidence is in the fact that Rival's market share has grown and the number of casinos too.
In time, lies are exposed by mistakes and "inconvenient facts", and this is how (2) was exposed over time. Such things as support mistakenly using a supposedly unconnected casino in their signature to a reply to a player, or a deposit at one casino being billed to the player as a deposit to another, supposedly unconnected, casino. Last, but not least, the secret database exposed the independence myth. It officially didn't exist, yet SOMEHOW the other "independent" casinos were able to access PERSONAL INFORMATION about players who had never played at THAT particular casino, nor any declared "sisters". This was detected because Rival casino B would make decisions based SOLELY on the actions of their NEW player at INDEPENDENT Rival casino A - it was therefore evident that they were really part of the same group, and this turned out to be the larger group of Bonne Chance white labels, all of whom were passing data about players between them through this central database, which many operators now concede DOES exist, and has existed right from the start.
Unfortunately, with all the lies and trickery, whatever Rival says now is taken with a pinch of salt. If it looks odd, it's another lie - even if it's Rival actually telling the truth for once.
You make some very good points. I appreciate that. It helps me understand the sentiment in this player community.
We really are trying, and this helps me understand some of the skepticism shown.
What a load of bollocks.
I know what average is, I did it in school when I was too young to gamble, and didn't even know what a casino was.
An average is the sum of a series of values divided by the number of values.
In this explanation MOST withdrawals should be taking 3 business days, and a few should take 2, and a few should take 5.
If EVERY withdrawal is taking as long as 5, then this is NOT the "average", but the MINIMUM value of the TAIL of the distribution of withdrawal times. This would mean the casino is LYING in the terms and conditions by stating 3-5 business days, and there is no point in pointing a player to something that isn't true in order to explain something.
To find out what is REALLY happening, EVERY withdrawal over a period of time has to be analysed and the length of time each takes added together, and divided by the number of withdrawals in the sample. THIS would give the true average, which MANY players now believe is GREATER than 5 business days. It is no wonder therefore that there has been a flood of complaints recently.
Normally, as companies grow and mature, they get BETTER at doing things, Rival seem to be getting steadily WORSE at some things. It's not so much they are taking 5 days, but that this is WORSE than their levels of performance in the past, so progress is in the WRONG direction, and seems to be continuing this way given that even the 5 business day quoted MAXIMUM seems to be routinely exceeded.
You are 100% right that the CS rep messed up and gave BAD information. I agree. We messed up. No excuses. I've contacted the player to try and give compensation.
We have been improving. Admittedly, we have taken a short step back due to all the legislative/banking/processing challenges we have dealt with in the last month.
We should be back on track before the month end, after that, we plan on continuing to improve.
I wanted to make a deposit yesterday, so I took a look at my existing bonuses. Some of them were pretty good, like 200% at 17x WR, no max cashout. Couple others like that.
Then I asked myself, do I really want to go through this bullcrap if I win? And I do NOT, so I deposited on Sloto, no bonus. The sad thing is that I like some of the unique games on some of the other sites, and also, I'm leaving my loyalty status behind, but I simply can't deal with these crappy payouts. IMO, there is nothing worse than that - nothing.
I understand you. I hope you had luck at Sloto.
We will pay out in 24 hours eventually. You will hear about it when we do.
Well 9 days after I requested my withdrawal, I am being told by VRC that I have to make a verification deposit in order to withdraw to QT. This so "they can be sure that I typed in the right account number."
Now- I know that before Rivals got rid of checks, e-checks, etc., they had the rule that you needed to deposit with an ewallet to withdraw to it.
BUT- my question is why would they still be accepting credit/debit card deposits if they have no withdrawal options for deposits made with those methods?
Also, why doesn't VRC mention anything about needing to make a verification deposit with an ewallet anywhere on their website? (sloto'cash does) I checked this out before I made my last debit card deposit.
I mean, WTF- the average person would think that they would be able to withdraw by any of the ONLY methods available, no matter how they deposited.
And why tell me this BS 9 days later after sending me 2 emails saying my withdrawal will be processed "shortly."
Can't wait to finally receive the money so I can redeposit at a white label Rival
Just received an email from Vegas Regal support after asking them why it doesn't say anything about ewallet verification deposits in their terms- this was their response:
Regarding the verifying deposit, you can read this here
under > winnings
No withdrawal will be honored until a deposit of at least $25 has been made in order to verify account holder's personal information. (meaning your QuickTender Account).
Boy if that isn't crystal clear than I don't know what is.
I've contacted you regarding your user ID. We have set our system to request docs when needed the same day the cashout is requested. If this did not happen with you, I'd like to find out why + provide you with compensation. You are 100% right you should have received this request the FIRST day.
Also, I'll make sure the Terms are updated to be more clear. You are right they can use a change. Thanks for pointing it out. I'd love to give you some compensation for your valuable suggestion. Just send me your casino ID via PM and I will get it to you.
Wow, ok, I think I answered everything in this thread. If I'm missing something, please let me know. To everyone, I understand your feelings; thanks for the suggestions and please know they aren't going unheard. :notworthy
Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Regal Affiliates Manager
