Ukraine Mess

[lockinlove]

Lets all be thankful this guy is no longer an advisor to Putin lol

 

[Webzcas]

I don't think @Webzcas thinks ALL Russians are bad. But I can't think for him of course. What I

As a country ruled by an Autocrat, I do think Russia is bad. The same Russia that have escalated this 'war' with the west since Putin took power in 2000.

The use of polonium in 2005 on UK streets. the use of Novichok in Salisbury. Both chemical weapons. Are these not escalations?

The illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014. The illegal invasion of Ukraine in 2022. The butchering, rape and murder of innocent civilians by soldiers wearing the Russian army uniform.

General Patton in 1945 was right IMO.

 

[Webzcas]

Lets all be thankful this guy is no longer an advisor to Putin lol

Ah Markov another useful idiot.

 

[Webzcas]

You should probably get on your meds. Your posts in here are complete dog shit. Keep hoping for war from mommies basement though! But just an fyi, nukes will affect you down there. So keep stockpiling cheetos. It wont save you!!

Yes of course they are. Because I am not buying the BS being peddled by the Kremlin mouthpieces.

As I said, there will not be a nuclear war. The fact that you will be able to keep posting proves it.

 

[Webzcas]

+ in front of an Apple monitor and iPhone next to it

But jokes aside, Lockinlove, let the man talk. He likely hates all Russians since the time he was a casino affiliate and his site was scraped or hacked, which ended his business soon after. Somewhere i was reading this, and that's quite a disaster IMO.

The easiest was to assume they were Russians because who else could do such bad things if there were no more countries... No offense Dave.

Otherwise, why would one hate a whole nation if Russia has never done anything bad to the UK? Salisbury poisoning? So what - likely Russia removed a bad Russian man., that's all.

However, every day many Muslims here do insane stuff, including child rapes - but everyone and the govt are scared as fuck to open a mouth - and that's because they're here everywhere, and dangerous. Russia is far away and has no real danger, which makes it the best opportunity, especially for weak people, to sing any songs they want.

No as said I do not hate Russians, I do however hate the Russian regime.

I am so sorry my view offends the likes of @lockinlove, to the extent he feels he has to attack the poster ie me, rather than my argument and point of view. In doing so, that is very telling and shows in my opinion your insecurity about your own point of view in this topic.

Here's a thought, instead of attacking me, why not try picking my argument and points apart. Same goes for anyone in The Attic or elsewhere on this forum.

Personally, I am of the view that The Kremlin is trying to scare the populations of the countries that are supporting Ukraine, to force their respective governments to cease doing so.

As evidenced in this thread over the last few pages, it is sadly working.

 

[Webzcas]

If the Russian Media ( Propagandists ) were to be believed, here in the UK we would have been under radioactive water over a year ago.



Thankfully the UK also has a nuclear deterrent and has a history of standing up to bullies on the world stage. The fact we are still here, proves it.

 

[goatwack]

So it seems Russia's launched 'an' ICBM in the early hours Ukraine-bound, though nothing's specified

 

[Webzcas]

No different to the thousands of missiles and drones they have launched indiscriminately at Ukraine over the past 1002 days. Although now being reported that it was not an ICBM that hit Dnipro.

Key point is, this did not have a nuclear warhead on it, whatever it was and yes ICBM can carry conventional warheads.

 

[goatwack]

Likely just a test run, to which a nuclear warhead can be affixed, from whatever location they deployed it from without some Storm Shadow-esque reprisal.

Probably just a paper plane in all honesty - Media's a-runnin' away with themselves again!

 

[geordiecolin]

 

[mack341]

No as said I do not hate Russians, I do however hate the Russian regime.

I am so sorry my view offends the likes of @lockinlove, to the extent he feels he has to attack the poster ie me, rather than my argument and point of view. In doing so, that is very telling and shows in my opinion your insecurity about your own point of view in this topic.

Here's a thought, instead of attacking me, why not try picking my argument and points apart. Same goes for anyone in The Attic or elsewhere on this forum.

Personally, I am of the view that The Kremlin is trying to scare the populations of the countries that are supporting Ukraine, to force their respective governments to cease doing so.

As evidenced in this thread over the last few pages, it is sadly working.

I'm pretty sure Lock is not a he

Do you agree this is Russia's backyard not the US's or Uk's?

The terms they and zelensky want to put forward aren't acceptable to Russia: they retreat all their forces, including giving up crimea, the Ukrainians of russian background will have no devolved govt, basically everything goes back to before the minsk agreement, Ukraine joins nato and sets up missile infrastructure that can launch nuclear warheads at Russia, which then nullifies the concept of mutually-assured destruction (the thing that kept us safe in the cold war) as the US would then have clear first strike advantage.

Given your view of the russian regime is the same as the powerful hawks in the US, can you not see why Russia (or their leadership, crooked or not) would have something to worry about in that future scenario?

Hence the war will carry on until Russia can obtain terms and cast iron guarantees re the security agreement.

The death and destruction will continue, an inevitable outcome.

I think most of us have probably lost track with what the actual, current counter arguments are to all of this, what the proposed course of action is, more weapons supplied, NATO troops on the ground etc...?

 

[armster]

The Russians are a paper tiger. Always threats of the extreme nature but no evidence of actually having the balls to do so, hell no evidence of the ability to do so. This longstanding attack on Ukraine has clearly shown the ineptness of their military and leaders. How do you attack a place you should easily be able to handle and show the complete inability to sustain an attack when you are deep within the territory you are supposedly armed to attack. As long as Putin is in power they'll continue to attack weak areas that typically earn them few repercussions except a stern finger wag from NATO from time-to-time. Putin loves the posturing and grand standing but if there were any actual imminent threat from a nation with power, he'd fold like a cheap tent.

 

[mack341]

The Russians are a paper tiger. Always threats of the extreme nature but no evidence of actually having the balls to do so, hell no evidence of the ability to do so. This longstanding attack on Ukraine has clearly shown the ineptness of their military and leaders. How do you attack a place you should easily be able to handle and show the complete inability to sustain an attack when you are deep within the territory you are supposedly armed to attack. As long as Putin is in power they'll continue to attack weak areas that typically earn them few repercussions except a stern finger wag from NATO from time-to-time. Putin loves the posturing and grand standing but if there were any actual imminent threat from a nation with power, he'd fold like a cheap tent.

According to the BBC:

The ISW data shows Moscow’s forces have seized around 2,700 sq km of Ukrainian territory so far this year, compared with just 465 sq km in the whole of 2023, a near six-fold increase.

Dr Marina Miron, a defence researcher at Kings College London, suggested to the BBC that there was a possibility the Ukrainian eastern front “might actually collapse” if Russia continued to advance at pace.

More than 1000 sq km was taken between 1 September and 3 November, suggesting the push accelerated in recent months.

-----------

I think you're underestimating the Ukrainian army, the determination and bravery of their soldiers with comments like 'easily be able to handle'.

Nato also provided thousands of portable anti tank and air defence weapons, so helicopters and low flying aircraft can be taken out, tanks neutralised.

What other conflicts are you comparing this war to, in order to determine Russia (and its performance in this war) are a second rate military power, e.g. the west's wars in the middle east, israel's in gaza?

 

[armster]

Seems you are confusing the mercenaries with the national military. When I say paper tiger, it's probably somewhat dismissive but the national military are inept, unorganized, and under maintained and despite the fear mongering of Western media, nuclear is not something anyone should worry about. Yes they have the ability but experts have maintained the nuclear capability of Russia is highly exaggerated.

Sure Ukraine is tough and t's very difficult to invade a large landmass like Ukraine, but recall once Russians arrived they had no strategy to fight deep within enemy territory and infiltrating that deep is at least half the battle. Having no plan once infiltrating is a signal to anyone paying attention that you just might not know what you are doing.

 

[mack341]

Pound for pound I'd say the British Army is still the best infantry (Germany would also probably be very decent, but for obvious reasons they've been set up more like a peace keeping force).

But then look at the Falklands, it was no cakewalk against the argies who used conscripts, and didn't have much of an airforce or navy.

Satellite data and cruise missiles etc..have come to the fore since then.

Russia doesn't or can't do the combined arms type co-ordination, but then we've only ever done it recently against 2nd/3rd rate opponents. What if the other side had means of electronic warfare, to interfere with signals etc..

Then again why would Russia need to in battlegrounds where the land area is huge, so instead they use attrition and encirclement pincers.

 

[Webzcas]

I'm pretty sure Lock is not a he

Do you agree this is Russia's backyard not the US's or Uk's?

The terms they and zelensky want to put forward aren't acceptable to Russia: they retreat all their forces, including giving up crimea, the Ukrainians of russian background will have no devolved govt, basically everything goes back to before the minsk agreement, Ukraine joins nato and sets up missile infrastructure that can launch nuclear warheads at Russia, which then nullifies the concept of mutually-assured destruction (the thing that kept us safe in the cold war) as the US would then have clear first strike advantage.

Given your view of the russian regime is the same as the powerful hawks in the US, can you not see why Russia (or their leadership, crooked or not) would have something to worry about in that future scenario?

Hence the war will carry on until Russia can obtain terms and cast iron guarantees re the security agreement.

The death and destruction will continue, an inevitable outcome.

I think most of us have probably lost track with what the actual, current counter arguments are to all of this, what the proposed course of action is, more weapons supplied, NATO troops on the ground etc...?

All I will say is, Putin's illegal war based on having Nato on their doorstep has seen both Sweden and Finland join NATO. Well done Russia, well done.

Hang on, wasn't that a red line also? I am sure Medvedev promised nuclear Sarmat missiles heading our way if Sweden or Finland joined NATO.

 

[mack341]

All I will say is, Putin's illegal war based on having Nato on their doorstep has seen both Sweden and Finland join NATO. Well done Russia, well done.

Hang on, wasn't that a red line also? I am sure Medvedev promised nuclear Sarmat missiles heading our way if Sweden or Finland joined NATO.

You said you wanted to see arguments and points, but just come back to this, an argument that can only be disproved by Armageddon happening!

Medvedev is one I don't trust or take seriously, snaking around with his soundbites for opportunity, to be crowned the successor to Putin.

 

[Guntis]

Are these papers real or do they just publish different jokes? If they're jokes, then they're stupid jokes because some people might take it seriously.

metro.co.uk/2024/11/21/brits-paying-eye-watering-prices-nuclear-bunkers-22035808/

Now, nuclear bunkers which can be put into homeowner’s back gardens are being sold on eBay for extortionate prices – but they’re being bought quickly.

This one is even worse, but i like their creative headline "Putin-proof bunkers" lol...

dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/brits-flock-buy-putin-proof-34161720

 

[mcgameboy]

Are these papers real or do they just publish different jokes? If they're jokes, then they're stupid jokes because some people might take it seriously.

metro.co.uk/2024/11/21/brits-paying-eye-watering-prices-nuclear-bunkers-22035808/

dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/brits-flock-buy-putin-proo

The clues are in the names. In both cases, the "paper" would be deemed unfit to wipe a dogs arse with.

 

[geordiecolin]

Pound for pound I'd say the British Army is still the best infantry (Germany would also probably be very decent, but for obvious reasons they've been set up more like a peace keeping force).

But then look at the Falklands, it was no cakewalk against the argies who used conscripts, and didn't have much of an airforce or navy.

Satellite data and cruise missiles etc..have come to the fore since then.

Russia doesn't or can't do the combined arms type co-ordination, but then we've only ever done it recently against 2nd/3rd rate opponents. What if the other side had means of electronic warfare, to interfere with signals etc..

Then again why would Russia need to in battlegrounds where the land area is huge, so instead they use attrition and encirclement pincers.

It seems that conscription has began and they are finding it quite challenging

 

[lockinlove]

I'm pretty sure Lock is not a he

Do you agree this is Russia's backyard not the US's or Uk's?

The terms they and zelensky want to put forward aren't acceptable to Russia: they retreat all their forces, including giving up crimea, the Ukrainians of russian background will have no devolved govt, basically everything goes back to before the minsk agreement, Ukraine joins nato and sets up missile infrastructure that can launch nuclear warheads at Russia, which then nullifies the concept of mutually-assured destruction (the thing that kept us safe in the cold war) as the US would then have clear first strike advantage.

Given your view of the russian regime is the same as the powerful hawks in the US, can you not see why Russia (or their leadership, crooked or not) would have something to worry about in that future scenario?

Hence the war will carry on until Russia can obtain terms and cast iron guarantees re the security agreement.

The death and destruction will continue, an inevitable outcome.

I think most of us have probably lost track with what the actual, current counter arguments are to all of this, what the proposed course of action is, more weapons supplied, NATO troops on the ground etc...?

Im trans. I went from female to Ewok. Cute little buggers arent we!

 

[geordiecolin]

Im trans. I went from female to Ewok. Cute little buggers arent we!

Judging by your picture it looks like they went in via the top of your head

 

[lockinlove]

Putin addressing the world right now? I just got home..is this from earlier or live? Sounds like he is saying he will attack countries who are harboring the US weapons being fired into Russia

 

[sufferinsilence]

About 6 hours ago.

 

[Guntis]

Just noticed that Wikipedia published a new page around 10 mins ago:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. It's the newest missile that Putin was talking about in his speech. Here are more details, quite interesting:

 

[mack341]

It feels to me like the major countries in Europe have gone very quiet, it's just us, the uk and the usa, going about things as though we're already in a 'there can only be one winner' situation here.

The resolution of the rhetoric, the sides stopping talking, it reminds me of 1939. Not saying ww3 is going to happen, just that we don't seem to understand that two neighbouring countries fighting each other is different to what we're now making this, Putin has tried but we're unwilling to see it.

The jet trainer video I posted, the guy is implying the storm shadow has to be fired from a uk/eu jet, think he said the typhoon or tornado. This is serious business.

Putin and Russia have developed this BRICS organisation, he will look weak and stupid if he allows these missile attacks to carry on without a response, when his country clearly has the means. Think about it, would we do this to China, no way is my conclusion.

 

[lockinlove]

 

[sufferinsilence]

It feels to me like the major countries in Europe have gone very quiet, it's just us, the uk and the usa, going about things as though we're already in a 'there can only be one winner' situation here.

The resolution of the rhetoric, the sides stopping talking, it reminds me of 1939. Not saying ww3 is going to happen, just that we don't seem to understand that two neighbouring countries fighting each other is different to what we're now making this, Putin has tried but we're unwilling to see it.

The jet trainer video I posted, the guy is implying the storm shadow has to be fired from a uk/eu jet, think he said the typhoon or tornado. This is serious business.

Putin and Russia have developed this BRICS organisation, he will look weak and stupid if he allows these missile attacks to carry on without a response, when his country clearly has the means. Think about it, would we do this to China, no way is my conclusion.

The sides haven't stopped talking. The Kremlin press officer said today they let the USA know before firing off that ICBM and are in constant contact with them.

Diplomatic solutions don't happen on TV.

 

[mack341]

The sides haven't stopped talking. The Kremlin press officer said today they let the USA know before firing off that ICBM and are in constant contact with them.

Diplomatic solutions don't happen on TV.

I don't get that sense at all, compare things to the Iran deal done in 2015 (iirc) Kerry flying here, there and everywhere.

I daresay in 1939 there was some backroom talking between ambassadors etc..., but not the main figures, a silence of no turning back descended. I am getting a bit of that now, not the full effect though.

They have to let the US know re the ICBM otherwise the US could jump to the worst conclusion from their satellite pictures that a missile has just left a nuclear silo.

 

[Webzcas]

This is a great debate, covering my opinion ie continue to support Ukraine to the exact opposite.

 

[TheAddict]

Is it Piers insufferable Morgan week or summin?
jeez

 

[geordiecolin]

Is it Piers insufferable Morgan week or summin?
jeez

According to Joe it shouldn't be his week. Here he is laying out the case for his own impeachment

 

[lockinlove]

All I will say is, Putin's illegal war based on having Nato on their doorstep has seen both Sweden and Finland join NATO. Well done Russia, well done.

Hang on, wasn't that a red line also? I am sure Medvedev promised nuclear Sarmat missiles heading our way if Sweden or Finland joined NATO.

Not really sure why you think all of this is a joke. North Korea has joined the war and are fighting. North Korea is another nuclear power.

Russia fired an ICBM. First of its kind used.

USA and UK have escalated this by allowing use of their long range missiles.

Putin threatening the US military base in Poland.

This has the recipe of total disaster so its not really funny at all.

Your stance is oh well Russia shouldnt have invaded Ukraine. Yeah great. True. But the US shouldnt have tried to force NATO onto Russias doorstep. Putin threatened the world to stop or else he was going into Ukraine. Not only did the US not stop, it ramped it up by taking over the Ukrainian election, doubling miliitary aid and training.

There is no argument to be had about NATO trying to put bases in Crimea and other regions. None. The USA wouldnt allow China to put military bases on the border of the USA either. They wouldnt allow China to move into Mexico and train their army and stock pile them with weapons to aim at the USA.

Both countries are equally responsible. Right now, id actually say the US might even be worse for doing this for no other reason but to try and start a hot war for Trump to try and deal with. Sacrificing thousands of lives and possibly stoking a world war out of spite? Arrest them all. The US is too used to invading small, weak countries that they have become oblivious and over confident...and somewhat deranged themselves.

We all know Putin is deranged. So ya, lets poke the deranged bear. Not a good strategy. This isnt libya or Syria. This a country with the most nuclear weapons in the world which now has a partner who has another massive stock pile of nukes (NK) and also the psychotic regime in Iran.

Just because Iraq rolled over doesnt mean Russia is anywhere near the same.

 

[lockinlove]

It feels to me like the major countries in Europe have gone very quiet, it's just us, the uk and the usa, going about things as though we're already in a 'there can only be one winner' situation here.

The resolution of the rhetoric, the sides stopping talking, it reminds me of 1939. Not saying ww3 is going to happen, just that we don't seem to understand that two neighbouring countries fighting each other is different to what we're now making this, Putin has tried but we're unwilling to see it.

The jet trainer video I posted, the guy is implying the storm shadow has to be fired from a uk/eu jet, think he said the typhoon or tornado. This is serious business.

Putin and Russia have developed this BRICS organisation, he will look weak and stupid if he allows these missile attacks to carry on without a response, when his country clearly has the means. Think about it, would we do this to China, no way is my conclusion.

I think the countries are probably sitting back thinking the US has lost their mind. Before it was just a bunch of spatting. Now, it's esclated to the point where its actually really in the verge of it getting out of hand.

If Russia fires missiles into Poland at the weapons base, thats all she wrote. Welcome to world war 3. Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin fought in Syria. He has shown that once pushed, he will engage. The US/UK are pushing him right now. Why wouldnt he respond? The US and Brits better take a step back here and really think this through. Is a corrupt country like Ukraine really worth sacrificing your country and soldiers for?

There is no way to negotiate? Sign a decree saying Ukraine wont be part of NATO and move on already.

 

[TheAddict]

Is it just that captured expression or is Kim Jong always unrecognisable if you cover his hair with your finger?

 

[Loca]

I think the countries are probably sitting back thinking the US has lost their mind. Before it was just a bunch of spatting. Now, it's esclated to the point where its actually really in the verge of it getting out of hand.

If Russia fires missiles into Poland at the weapons base, thats all she wrote. Welcome to world war 3. Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin fought in Syria. He has shown that once pushed, he will engage. The US/UK are pushing him right now. Why wouldnt he respond? The US and Brits better take a step back here and really think this through. Is a corrupt country like Ukraine really worth sacrificing your country and soldiers for?

There is no way to negotiate? Sign a decree saying Ukraine wont be part of NATO and move on already.

I agree that it's not worth starting WW3 for the sake of Ukraine. Western countries have driven themselves into this situation. If you have already decided to help Ukraine to defend its borders - then you should have given the entire arsenal of weapons at once, and not stretch it for three years, during which hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers have been killed and wounded and now there is simply a shortage of manpower.... Plus completely stop trade with Russia, impose an embargo on oil and so on. Half-measures led to the current situation. And now we will just have to hope that Putin will sign some kind of long-term peace treaty.... Escalation will lead to an even greater tragedy. ​

 

[lockinlove]

Is it just that captured expression or is Kim Jong always unrecognisable if you cover his hair with your finger?

He kind of looks like a Sushi chef or maybe a portuguese gangster

 

[geordiecolin]

I agree that it's not worth starting WW3 for the sake of Ukraine. Western countries have driven themselves into this situation. If you have already decided to help Ukraine to defend its borders - then you should have given the entire arsenal of weapons at once, and not stretch it for three years, during which hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers have been killed and wounded and now there is simply a shortage of manpower.... Plus completely stop trade with Russia, impose an embargo on oil and so on. Half-measures led to the current situation. And now we will just have to hope that Putin will sign some kind of long-term peace treaty.... Escalation will lead to an even greater tragedy.​

Streaching it out for 3 years allowed them to get rid of soon to be out of date weapons and to build more at the expence of so many lives.

 

[Webzcas]

Not really sure why you think all of this is a joke. North Korea has joined the war and are fighting. North Korea is another nuclear power.

Russia fired an ICBM. First of its kind used.

USA and UK have escalated this by allowing use of their long range missiles.

Putin threatening the US military base in Poland.

This has the recipe of total disaster so its not really funny at all.

Your stance is oh well Russia shouldnt have invaded Ukraine. Yeah great. True. But the US shouldnt have tried to force NATO onto Russias doorstep. Putin threatened the world to stop or else he was going into Ukraine. Not only did the US not stop, it ramped it up by taking over the Ukrainian election, doubling miliitary aid and training.

There is no argument to be had about NATO trying to put bases in Crimea and other regions. None. The USA wouldnt allow China to put military bases on the border of the USA either. They wouldnt allow China to move into Mexico and train their army and stock pile them with weapons to aim at the USA.

Both countries are equally responsible. Right now, id actually say the US might even be worse for doing this for no other reason but to try and start a hot war for Trump to try and deal with. Sacrificing thousands of lives and possibly stoking a world war out of spite? Arrest them all. The US is too used to invading small, weak countries that they have become oblivious and over confident...and somewhat deranged themselves.

We all know Putin is deranged. So ya, lets poke the deranged bear. Not a good strategy. This isnt libya or Syria. This a country with the most nuclear weapons in the world which now has a partner who has another massive stock pile of nukes (NK) and also the psychotic regime in Iran.

Just because Iraq rolled over doesnt mean Russia is anywhere near the same.

No I do not think this is a joke, far from it, hundreds of thousands of people have died. Innocent civilians have been murdered, raped, made homeless and moreso.

My stance is not a flippant one that you seem to think it is. My stance is the same as many many other people, in that if we do nothing and turn the other way, then where does this end?

Regarding the nuclear sabre rattling. We have had this every single day since 24th February 2022.

It is Russia that continues to escalate this war. Using Iranian drones, now North Korean troops, without consideration for their own people, sending their army into a meat grinder. But then they have form for this, this is exactly how the 2nd World War played out with the Red Army. Superior numbers in a war of attrition will win the day, regardless of the cost to human life.

Ukraine has a democratically elected government, the Ukrainian people in 2014 voted to have closer ties to the EU. There was never ever any intention for the US or any other State, to get them to join NATO.

But now thanks to Putin's empire building and wanting to reinstate the Soviet Union, Russia has an 800 odd mile land border with a NATO member - in the form of Finland. Plus previously neutral Sweden have also joined NATO. Well done Russia

Yes the Baltic States did join NATO and I bet the populations of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are so glad they did, as they now are all protected by Article 5 - No doubt Putin would have turned his attention to them, if such an umbrella of protection was not covering the Baltic States.

Yes the use of a Ballistic Missile is a new development. But again this is done purely to scare into submission the population of NATO countries, particularly those like me, who live in Europe.

The video I showed a few posts back - yes Piers Morgan, but seriously, well worth a watch. As your position on Ukraine and my own position is reflected in the debate.

 

[mack341]

Why don't we fire some storm shadows and US cruise missiles at the kremlin, we might as well, what have we got to lose if all they'll do is sabre rattle in response?

We might succeed in taking out Putin, and then all the causes of war will be gone, Russia without Putin will withdraw all their troops from Ukraine and the two countries will live side by side in peace.

When the Ukraine then joins Nato and they install missile infrastructure that can be adapted to launch nuclear missiles, Russia won't bat an eyelid I'm sure.

-------------

In fact, I was listening to a nuclear missile expert, Professor Ted Postal from MIT, last night on YouTube, and he brought up the issue of the new nuclear weapons the US is developing and wants to base in Germany.

The upshot is the time from launch to strike is cut down to minutes, but this will increase the risk of false alarms, as Russia won't have much time to determine whether and how to respond to an alert.

Vice versa the problem for Europe with this new Russian missile as it has a shorter distance range, if you think about it if the UK carries on launching or helping to launch the storm shadows into Russian territory, and then shortly afterwards one night the nato systems detect another one of these Russian missiles has been launched, how are they going to know it's not nuclear or heading for the UK.

It's upping the nuclear ante, not sure countries can have a procedure where they wait to see if it's just more sabre rattling or the real thing.

 

[Webzcas]

Why don't we fire some storm shadows and US cruise missiles at the kremlin, we might as well, what have we got to lose if all they'll do is sabre rattle in response?

Sorry I was going to respond to this, but such a dumb analogy it is absolutely pointless to.

 

[goatwack]

Yes, I concur. Let's launch the full might of our combined military at Russia and just be done with it.

After all, it's all just bravado and posturing from a nuclear superpower, and/or:

Putin's stupido/ Russia's bluffing/ they don't know what they're doing/ Putin's Russia's Trump/ Zelenski is The Chosen One/ The U.S and UK have no interest in prolonging this war (delete as applicable)

 

[mack341]

There was never ever any intention for the US or any other State, to get them to join NATO.

How would you know this?

"Through classes, drills and exercises involving at least 10,000 troops annually for more than eight years, NATO and its members helped the embattled country shift from rigid Soviet-style command structures to Western standards where soldiers are taught to think on the move."

"The work to develop those skills began inauspiciously in 2008. Russia had invaded Georgia, prompting NATO to extend to it and Ukraine vague invitations for membership. The alliance drafted a 70-page action plan spelling out “Ukraine’s strategic course of Euro-Atlantic integration,”

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[geordiecolin]

 

[Guntis]

She reveals a secret of how Russians had built their Oreshink missile.

 

[lockinlove]

No I do not think this is a joke, far from it, hundreds of thousands of people have died. Innocent civilians have been murdered, raped, made homeless and moreso.

My stance is not a flippant one that you seem to think it is. My stance is the same as many many other people, in that if we do nothing and turn the other way, then where does this end?

Regarding the nuclear sabre rattling. We have had this every single day since 24th February 2022.

It is Russia that continues to escalate this war. Using Iranian drones, now North Korean troops, without consideration for their own people, sending their army into a meat grinder. But then they have form for this, this is exactly how the 2nd World War played out with the Red Army. Superior numbers in a war of attrition will win the day, regardless of the cost to human life.

Ukraine has a democratically elected government, the Ukrainian people in 2014 voted to have closer ties to the EU. There was never ever any intention for the US or any other State, to get them to join NATO.

But now thanks to Putin's empire building and wanting to reinstate the Soviet Union, Russia has an 800 odd mile land border with a NATO member - in the form of Finland. Plus previously neutral Sweden have also joined NATO. Well done Russia

Yes the Baltic States did join NATO and I bet the populations of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are so glad they did, as they now are all protected by Article 5 - No doubt Putin would have turned his attention to them, if such an umbrella of protection was not covering the Baltic States.

Yes the use of a Ballistic Missile is a new development. But again this is done purely to scare into submission the population of NATO countries, particularly those like me, who live in Europe.

The video I showed a few posts back - yes Piers Morgan, but seriously, well worth a watch. As your position on Ukraine and my own position is reflected in the debate.

We had the "invade Ukraine" sabre rattling for a very long time too. Where most, if not all leaders said it was a bluff and nothing more. I read dozens of posts just like yours then all of the sudden. Invasion.

Do you not remember the US and NATO threating Russia not to dare invade Ukraine. Did he care then? Was he scared? No.

The only reason why this may not go full scale war is because of Trump coming into office.

 

[Webzcas]

Sigh. You obviously have not been paying attention.

Meanwhile, Putin's 3 Day Special Military Operation, designed to stop having NATO on their doorstep has seen Finland which has an 800 odd mile land border with Russia, join NATO along with previously always neutral Sweden.

Wait a minute, didn't Russia threaten us again with Nukes if that happened??!! Oh No!!

As said, this is not about overthrowing Putin. This is about allowing Ukraine to defend itself against an illegal invasion.

By allowing Ukraine to target North Korean and Russian Soldiers amassing in Kursk, readying to attack Ukraine, this is the reasoning behind the US, UK and France allowing their SHORT RANGE ( 300km is not deemed long range! ) ATACMS, Stormshadows and Scalps to target said military installations. Thus SAVING Ukrainian lives!

But go ahead and continue to believe that Biden et al are pushing for a Nuclear War. Sheesh, the likes of Solovyov and co have really got to you.

There is one easy way to stop this war and that is Putin pulling back his army into Russia.

 

[geordiecolin]

Sigh. You obviously have not been paying attention.

View attachment 203440
Meanwhile, Putin's 3 Day Special Military Operation, designed to stop having NATO on their doorstep has seen Finland which has an 800 odd mile land border with Russia, join NATO along with previously always neutral Sweden.

Wait a minute, didn't Russia threaten us again with Nukes if that happened??!! Oh No!!

As said, this is not about overthrowing Putin. This is about allowing Ukraine to defend itself against an illegal invasion.

By allowing Ukraine to target North Korean and Russian Soldiers amassing in Kursk, readying to attack Ukraine, this is the reasoning behind the US, UK and France allowing their SHORT RANGE ( 300km is not deemed long range! ) ATACMS, Stormshadows and Scalps to target said military installations. Thus SAVING Ukrainian lives!

But go ahead and continue to believe that Biden et al are pushing for a Nuclear War. Sheesh, the likes of Solovyov and co have really got to you.

There is one easy way to stop this war and that is Putin pulling back his army into Russia.

There is zero evidence of NK troups fighting the Ukrainians with Russia. It has been pure propagana for about a month designed to promote the American/UK/Europes cause.
For years NK troups have gone to Russia for training purposes.
Even the pentagon has had to admit it.

 

[Webzcas]

Oh please Colin

Russia ia BREAKING UN Resolutions in providing N Korea with oil. North Korea is providing artillery shells to Russia en masse.

There are at least 10,000 North Korean soldiers in Kursk readying to attack Ukrainian positions.

Now I am certainly one to not believe everything the main stream media reports, but Russian Telegram accounts also attest to this.

Seriously, stop being myopic on this. I know it helps your argument and position, but it is blatantly false. As false as a Stormshadow and ATACMS being able to reach Moscow

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[paul7388]

Sigh. You obviously have not been paying attention.

View attachment 203440
Meanwhile, Putin's 3 Day Special Military Operation, designed to stop having NATO on their doorstep has seen Finland which has an 800 odd mile land border with Russia, join NATO along with previously always neutral Sweden.

Wait a minute, didn't Russia threaten us again with Nukes if that happened??!! Oh No!!

As said, this is not about overthrowing Putin. This is about allowing Ukraine to defend itself against an illegal invasion.

By allowing Ukraine to target North Korean and Russian Soldiers amassing in Kursk, readying to attack Ukraine, this is the reasoning behind the US, UK and France allowing their SHORT RANGE ( 300km is not deemed long range! ) ATACMS, Stormshadows and Scalps to target said military installations. Thus SAVING Ukrainian lives!

But go ahead and continue to believe that Biden et al are pushing for a Nuclear War. Sheesh, the likes of Solovyov and co have really got to you.

There is one easy way to stop this war and that is Putin pulling back his army into Russia.

Putin has never said he will Nuke anyone.

He has just warned that he has them at his disposal and will use them if he has to.

Glad you find the whole thing a joke and are so sure of yourself. Just because he hasn't used them yet does not mean he won't in the future. Even the experts on the matter do not know what he will do and are concerned

Anyway you are quite hypocritical. So much outrage against this illegal invasion and the actions of Russian soldiers and the civilians that have died. Sitting there urging Ukraine to use the weapons supplied.

Yet those same weapons supplied by the same countries are gerring used by Israel to slaughter far more Innocent civilians than Putin has killed

But guess that's fine by you. Those people don't matter long as it's not Putin doing
It.

You are also so quick to keep condemning the actions of Russia troops . Nothing about way Israeli soldiers have raped, tortured and broke all the International laws.

It also seems like In your idealistic world the Ukranian army would never do anything wrong lol. Maybe time you actually did a bit of research into some of the things they have done to their people over the years .

But hey keep laughing away at Putin and how he is no danger lol . There's actually a reason why Nato has not sent troops to
Ukraine and tried to Invade Russia. Can't be anything to do with the Nuclear weapons as Putin will never use them he's all talk. Yet 6ou then post about how Britain is great and Untouchable because of our Nuclear Detterent.

But hey attack us and we will use them. Keep pushing Russia tho as they will never use them. And you say people have no clue about reality.