UK Government - loot boxes

[dionysus]

The ill-effect, is you could drop, say 20 bucks (not bad really, like any vice) to increase your game or character performance. to enjoy more. But, you could drop...literally, hundreds to thousands of dollars to keep 'par'

 

[dionysus]

I'll give you a personal example. I used to play MMA (Marvel Avengers Alliance (this was an early FB game).
I did enjoy it immensely (I still talk to and have made true genuine friends from the game, we talk 10 years later, we talk about our lives, families, and even though none of us play any more, we are pretty damned good friends).

The game however, encouraged you, to purchase add-ons to compete.
Wasnt bad then.
A tenner here and there. It was really, same as buying a new game or a tenner in a slot.
But, it became more.....and more.....and more.
And ive seen people drop a bill...or a few bills to play
I cant really truly imagine since them. But I can undsterstand how kids could spend a thou

 

[4048]

Though both my favorite games employ loot boxes extensively, I honestly would prefer if more countries followed the Netherland's lead and banned lootboxes entirely, simply because it would force game devs to be more creative (making good games rather than good loot).

I do think loot boxes should be treated the same way casino games are though, blanket ban at aiming them for kids. Adults can make up their own minds.

 

[Casinomeister]

I'll give you a personal example. I used to play MMA (Marvel Avengers Alliance (this was an early FB game).
I did enjoy it immensely (I still talk to and have made true genuine friends from the game, we talk 10 years later, we talk about our lives, families, and even though none of us play any more, we are pretty damned good friends).

The game however, encouraged you, to purchase add-ons to compete.
Wasnt bad then.
A tenner here and there. It was really, same as buying a new game or a tenner in a slot.
But, it became more.....and more.....and more.
And ive seen people drop a bill...or a few bills to play
I cant really truly imagine since them. But I can undsterstand how kids could spend a thou

Thank you. I fell much smarter today than I was yesterday.

 

[bamberfishcake]

@Casinomeister Loot boxes, as Dio explained, are add-ons for a game that cost x amount and you might get ten in-game items like weapons, armour, skins etc. Items are ranked so you might get 5 common items (weapons, armour, potions, skins etc), 3 uncommon, and a legendary, rare, epic or similar.

Been a while since I played these types of games, and probably because the idea of buying to compete doesn't float my boat. But, before, they would tell you the chances of what to expect.

I agree with most of what's being said, but I don't see it as something that needs regulation.

And after taking away auto-play, bringing in the intrusive sow to control how I spend my money, banning bonus-buys etc, I don't want or think I need any more legislation. It surprises me that many members think its a good idea.

Where does it end? If the study shows a link between children wanting loot boxes then perhaps a discussion needs to be had between parent and child. Not legislate the masses for the sake of a minority again. Do we need to stop a sportsmans bet, or stop saying to our kids 'wanna bet?'.

Teach, don't oppress.

Its bureaucratic poppycock. Unnecessary. And the report that shows a link is out of context with the bigger picture. If there is a link between problem gambling and loot boxes then thousands of other products and marketing come into question. Need to draw a line and I think the line was drawn exactly where it should have been.

It's about educating your kids, and maybe tightening up on access to your payment details. I see it as another mountain out of a molehill that will probably limit me from doing what I want in the future.

 

[Casinomeister]

It's about educating your kids, and maybe tightening up on access to your payment details. I see it as another mountain out of a molehill that will probably limit me from doing what I want in the future.

It's about teaching kids the value of money, and how not to waste it for crap. And teaching them "you can't always get what you want". And "Give me your phone, and go outside and play."

 

[johnnybagel]

I'm with Bamber on this one.

If kids spend too much money then take their access to the money away. Parent them and deal with the tantrum, don't ask everyone else to do it for you.

Also, loot boxes do give the purchaser something, and the thing they buy is specific to the game and can;t be 'cashed in' which is what the report said was a key element in their thinking. It's not technically gambling according the the gambling act. Even then, the Gov want to monitor it for a while and see how industry led measures effect things before they start red taping everything, so they arent just saying "Nah mate its fine".

Spending controls already exist on a lot of the games by the way, and the stats didnt look all that bad to be honest. I'm sure there will be people out there getting into trouble with loot boxes, but that number is tiny.

 

[ads2003uk]

I'm glad my post has got so much debate and it's interesting to see both sides.

Part of the original report did focus on criminal acts to obtain funds to play.
This was quite surprising and concerning - I've heard of kids going down CEX trading in stuff to get funds for game add-ons but committing criminal acts to obtain funds is a worry.

Whilst these games are aimed at kids, there is still a large number of adults play these and get sucked into the rabbit hole of purchases.

An ex's 16yr old son used to play that Coinmaster game - turned out he was spending 100's of pounds a month on coin and bonus items to better level up.

 

[TheAddict]

Seen some vids on tube with the youth of today opening those boxes. The sheer levels of excitement when getting a good card really shows just how bad Roshstien is at faking it

 

[ads2003uk]

Roshstine fakes it?
I always thought "Demo" next to the balance was a new currency

But your right, the jubilation all though looks fake, can be for some quite real especially when they've already invested heavily.

The young lad from the UK that won £1m from playing Fortnite spent just shy of £100k over the course of the tournament.
Now that's shocking.

They spend £80 on 12000 FIFA points to purchase FIFA packs.
There was an Instagram video that showed the guys affiliated to football teams are spending a few thousand to compete

 

[4048]

I'm glad my post has got so much debate and it's interesting to see both sides.

Part of the original report did focus on criminal acts to obtain funds to play.
This was quite surprising and concerning - I've heard of kids going down CEX trading in stuff to get funds for game add-ons but committing criminal acts to obtain funds is a worry.

Whilst these games are aimed at kids, there is still a large number of adults play these and get sucked into the rabbit hole of purchases.

An ex's 16yr old son used to play that Coinmaster game - turned out he was spending 100's of pounds a month on coin and bonus items to better level up.

These games aren't aimed at kids for the most part, although that is possibly the largest concern.

The games, very similarly to casino games, are aimed at "whales".

And while I don't really see to much harm in buying a couple of keys and crates on CSGO for a few dollars a pop (I've spent more than I'd like to admit on DotA 2 cosmetics for example), when Blizzard hides core gameplay elements behind a $25 paywall (rifts in Diablo Immortal) and leaves it as the only way to obtain player power, I fear the industry has taken steps towards a future that no one wants.

And since I mentioned keys and crates, at least Valve was nice enough to publicly ban skin gambling, and I'm pretty sure that there is a €400 weekly limit on in-game purchases on Steam, unless you contact them directly to have the limit lifted. Baby steps but at least in the right direction.

 

[jasonuk]

Been a while since I played these types of games, and probably because the idea of buying to compete doesn't float my boat. But, before, they would tell you the chances of what to expect.

This happened because of regulation - the Chinese Ministry of Culture in 2016 mandated the disclosure of drop probabilities, and thus the information could be inferred for other regions as well. The companies were asked voluntarily to provide the information prior to that and they refused.

These games aren't aimed at kids for the most part, although that is possibly the largest concern.
The games, very similarly to casino games, are aimed at "whales".

A lot of the terminology and design comes from the casino sector - so it's understandable the tension it creates having "regulated" casino-like mechanics in an unregulated environment, particularly when game developers are opaque regarding information and behaviour.

As you say there's been a lot of investment in cultivating "whales" - an oft-cited report by Swrve (

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quoted) estimated that 1.5% of players spend, but the top decile of those make 50% of the revenue for the company... so 1/600th of the player base potentially generates 50% of the revenue. If they can get those whales (through game design, through personalised notifications, through gambling mechanics) it can make a considerable difference to the bottom line.

And since I mentioned keys and crates, at least Valve was nice enough to publicly ban skin gambling, and I'm pretty sure that there is a €400 weekly limit on in-game purchases on Steam, unless you contact them directly to have the limit lifted. Baby steps but at least in the right direction.

Valve had nearly three years to intervene (the enabling feature was added in August 2013), so feels like they waited until the pressure got too much. Once the CSGO Lotto scandal hit in July 2016 - and the FTC were starting to investigate the influencer-owners for not disclosing that information - the media coverage and subsequent outrage jumped significantly and Valve started to put some blocks in place. While it's not as big or visible as it was in 2016, it still happens - for example PUBG disabled steam trading in 2018 to prevent a repeat scenario occurring.

 

[jasonuk]

I know there's already been some confusion in the thread, so I want to add some clarification:

The young lad from the UK that won £1m from playing Fortnite spent just shy of £100k over the course of the tournament.
Now that's shocking.

I am not sure if this is correct. The original Fortnite: Save The World had loot boxes (llamas) - those were made transparent in January 2019 (so you gamble time instead of money) and the Battle Royale pivoted away entirely into battle passes and microtransactions.

There are players out there - particularly streamers - who have spent five and six figures on Fortnite BR, but this would have nothing to do with the gambling debate as all purchases are made through a storefront or unlocked using the battle pass.

They spend £80 on 12000 FIFA points to purchase FIFA packs.
There was an Instagram video that showed the guys affiliated to football teams are spending a few thousand to compete

FIFA, on the other hand, is front and centre of this debate - a potent combination of pay-to-win with gambling mechanics. The game developers are desperately trying to paint it as something else (you don't have to pay, you can buy coins instead of packs, you can turn the feature off) but ultimately the game is designed to do that to you.

It's very clear that "cannot be converted to real money" is the primary legal argument the game developers have left, because many states and countries' gambling legislation references money rather than monetary worth (which is curious why the DCMS mentioned it, because the UKGC uses the latter in the Gambling Act 2005).

In the case of games like FIFA it's clearly not true, not only is the black market thriving but even EA themselves got caught when an alleged employee was

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- items that would be virtually impossible for the average player to grind by play alone (one comment suggests 10,000 games required for each card, in a game that has a one year lifecycle).

 

[pinnit2014]

Here's how i loot



Only joking - that's what casino's act like when Big Win = SOW

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The science on loot boxes is clear, it fires up all the same receptors that gambling does, the mechanics of how they work is very close to that of slot machines, and the potential for addictive repurchasing is very high.

Multiple studies around the world have determined that they are a form of gambling, the fact that they get away with the technicality of 'the items have no real world value' to drop through a loophole is neither here nor there.

Games with loot boxes in them don't have an age rating on them, so for example the FIFA games which have one of the most egregious implementations of loot boxes, are rated as being suitable for ages 3 and up.

Children are especially vulnerable to them, as are adults with compulsion and/or addiction issues, it's also been shown that people on the autistic spectrum are particularly at risk too.

Purely from a videogames perspective, they are an absolute cancer and have done nothing but spray hot liquid shit over everything that they've come into contact with, often games are designed as nothing more than a vehicle to implement loot boxes around (Diablo Immortal being the most obvious recent example), and indeed games are often deliberately 'broken' by the developer so they can sell you the 'fix' in the form of loot boxes.

From a moral standpoint they are reprehensible and beyond defence, and they've fucked up a load of perfectly good games too.

Decent watch about them here:

 

[ads2003uk]

Reading my opening post and everyone's responses just prove how crap I am at trying to get my point across (no wonder I piss off the Mrs)

Your point is fantastic - there was a story not so long ago that an autistic kid got hold of his folks credit cards and basically maxed them.
Luckily visas fraud department was understanding on this occasion.

So glad I've never had a console - long live my Speccy 48k

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's about educating your kids, and maybe tightening up on access to your payment details. I see it as another mountain out of a molehill that will probably limit me from doing what I want in the future.

'I don't care how evil, corrosive and destructive this construct is, I will oppose it for as long as it might theoretically impact on some vague and undefined thing I might want to do in the future'.

 

[bamberfishcake]

'I don't care how evil, corrosive and destructive this construct is, I will oppose it for as long as it might theoretically impact on some vague and undefined thing I might want to do in the future'.

I don't think it's evil, corrosive, or destructive, and if I did I would have a different opinion. Please don't try and twist my words

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I don't think it's evil, corrosive, or destructive, and if I did I would have a different opinion. Please don't try and twist my words

Yeah it seems pretty cool overall, perfect fodder for three year olds, get them started on gambling early I guess.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Yeah it seems pretty cool overall, perfect fodder for three year olds, get them started on gambling early I guess.

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Oh, so you want an actual conversation about it?

I don't think the problem should lie with kids as young as three, again, there should be a conversation with the parents.

I also don't see the problem as any worse than the latest toy being marketed to kids or Ronaldo in an advert for the latest boots at £120. These things are not necessities, and certainly do not come with happiness guaranteed. We are bombarded with adverts and conditioned to spend. What I, and you, spend your money on is down to us, not our kids, and again, perhaps a conversation needs to be had between parent and child.

I also don't see a loot box as being the evil it's being made out to be in the grand scheme of things. Have you ever bought one? What is more concerning to me is where this will lead to. Obviously more spending regulation, more control over the flow of money, and less personal freedom.

It's a marketing ploy, you don't have to play the game. As with many problems in life, rather than refuse to partake, many sheep will bleat about the rules.

What would happen if people stopped playing them because of the total you have to spend to compete? Nothing, except for fairer games. We reap what we sow, and I say no to regulating stuff like this because I think a better solution is at hand for me personally.

I have kids, and loot boxes are way down my list of concerns

 

[casguy2016]

You get the same "high" when in the process of opening loot boxes and getting the rare item. There really is no difference...if anything it's worst because in the end you never really own what you pull.

 

[bamberfishcake]

You get the same "high" when in the process of opening loot boxes and getting the rare item. There really is no difference...if anything it's worst because in the end you never really own what you pull.

You get the same high for many things. Especially with video games in general, you get a buzz from being top of a leaderboard or completing a level.

As usual, excessive and prolonged exposure leads to addiction. Maybe stop the child from playing the game for so long, perhaps the loot box would hold less value.

I'm all in favour of limiting a child's time on computers, just don't need a regulator or legislation to babysit the consequential end of bad parenting. Pretty much anything that gives a buzz can be linked to the buzz of gambling, which is the buzz of winning.

Where will it end? If this goes through it opens the flood gates for much more.

 

[satchnz]

Seriously though, all form of shopping is addictive to a degree, were bred for it, please.

Oh shit! Do you think Amazon might SOW me??

 

[bamberfishcake]

Oh shit! Do you think Amazon might SOW me??

Probably, if this lot and the government have anything to do with it

 

[casguy2016]

You get the same high for many things. Especially with video games in general, you get a buzz from being top of a leaderboard or completing a level.

As usual, excessive and prolonged exposure leads to addiction. Maybe stop the child from playing the game for so long, perhaps the loot box would hold less value.

I'm all in favour of limiting a child's time on computers, just don't need a regulator or legislation to babysit the consequential end of bad parenting. Pretty much anything that gives a buzz can be linked to the buzz of gambling, which is the buzz of winning.

Where will it end? If this goes through it opens the flood gates for much more.

I think they need to have guaranteed digital items instead of items that could give you that rare item. The chance at a rare item is the biggest problem IMO when it comes to these games.