Baptism by Fire - failed Tropica Casino - Rival Casino - cancelled BBF

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Hi guys,

Please don't worry about me. I have thick skin and have been around long enough to know that VWM enjoys posting whatever comes to mind.

While I can't keep everyone happy, I can keep most of you happy and you know what, that's fine by me. I know what we have and what we stand for.

If a fraudster getting a hostile mail makes us evil, then we're evil. If communicating our offers in a way that only makes sense to 99% of our members is wrong, then we're wrong. If warning potential fraudsters of the dangers ahead has someone's panties in a knot, then it's something we just have to accept.

So, if Bryan chooses to keep the thread open, then we can maybe go the record for the longest BBF (pages and time) :cool:

Thanks for the support - will share the positive feedback with the team.

Best,
Dieter
 
One last statement from me.

VWM and other people here are strongly against the casino, have no problem with that.

I have a problem with issues made by members who know that they are able to make some serious damage to casinos.

If they play these casinos and deposit and have issues then I would say: Good to hear your problem and now we talk about it.

Question to VWM: Do you play RIVAL casinos and why do you hijack every thread if you don`t play RIVAL?

Question to sylcnlayd: Why do you talk bad about every casino. I took a look about your last postings and nearly every post is about an issue. And how much did you deposited before you had your Free money please?

Thank you
 
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Yeah, just hang through. Whatever you do, there will still be people hate your casino because it's Tropica and because it's RIVAL. It's the same thing with NetEnt. Look at some members bashing NetEnt for EVERY slot they're creating. Whatever they do they it doesn't matter anymore, because some people made their opinion.

So it's the classic line i have in mind. You don't need to make 100% happy, just take care of the 95% that appreciate your efforts.
 
One last statement from me.

VWM and other people here are strongly against the casino, have no problem with that.

I have a problem with issues made by members who know that they are able to make some serious damage to casinos.

If they play these casinos and deposit and have issues then I would say: Good to hear your problem and now we talk about it.

Question to VWM: Do you play RIVAL casinos and why do you hijack every thread if you don`t play RIVAL?

Question to sylcnlayd: Why do you talk bad about every casino. I took a look about your last postings and nearly every post is about an issue. And how much did you deposited before you had your Free money please?

Thank you

No, but this is mainly down to the poor reputation they have had in the past. Even the good ones seem to have a skeleton or two in the closet that can come tumbling out when least expected.

We have had the enthusiastic Rival rep before with Tradition casino. This too was considered a breath of fresh air, and the rep claimed to be the OWNER, not merely a member of staff who could be overruled. Then, it turned out we had all been duped, and most people had fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Their decent into the pit was sudden, and was quickly followed by them "doing a runner".

This is how Rival have operated since they first emerged, and this has meant that it has become VERY hard for a genuine Rival operator to convince everyone that they are not like the others.

Whilst many say what Tropica did was not so bad, and fully justified, Bryan took it VERY seriously indeed, and broke one of his usual rules of not making a major decision because of an issue that emerged in another forum.

The rather threatening text in the template deposit receipt email casts doubt on them having fully learned the lesson, and it seems odd that a mere processor shouts "jump" and the casino replies "how high". This is the tail wagging the dog, and this is not how it should be for an independent operator who is in full control of their business.
 
Just to clarify, you are saying that $200 FREE MONEY is not worth withdrawing because of fees? I.e. getting $155 FREE is "silly"?

You have not deposited at our casinos and we offer you $200 (x 5) FREE and we're ridiculous?
I have tried to deposit and think I successfully did once or twice, but as I reported earlier about this problem, I seemed to get an error 99% of the time so I stopped trying...and this WAS reported to you here I believe.

I understand $155 is a lot to many players...but I blow that in one sitting (deposit) at one casino and to have to jump through hoops to get to where I need to, to withdraw with the offer like that...well..Let me say, I can spend my time spinning at other places and enjoy knowing I do not have to do anything but win or lose.......I play to play and really dislike convoluted offers...so I try to avoid them...and I did say It was my fault for not paying attention to this offer until after the fact.

I actually have played at a few Rivals for a very long time but have stopped at most that offer terms that have max cash outs and such. I am down to one Rival and this was the reason I tried out Tropica. I was looking for another Rival so I would have a choice. But I guess that was not meant to happen for me. Too many max cash out offers, just as Sunset has and others doing the same offers that are not enticing to a player such as me.

.
 
We have had the enthusiastic Rival rep before with Tradition casino. This too was considered a breath of fresh air, and the rep claimed to be the OWNER, not merely a member of staff who could be overruled. Then, it turned out we had all been duped, and most people had fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Their decent into the pit was sudden, and was quickly followed by them "doing a runner".
Would you care to elaborate on that?
As I recall it, the CM member WAS the casino owner - and the most inept and incompetent one I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. :(
She was so bad, she even had the audacity to call myself and Bonustreak (a VERY respected webmaster), liars on a public forum :eek2:

Yes you are right, Rival have had their share of really shit operators. But they also have a few of the best operators on the net IMHO. Just the same as with most software providers, you have to be careful which of their casinos you choose to play at.

KK
 
If i deposit via skrill , dont use bonus and have a verified accout from the netherlands...
How long would it take for my possible winnings to be back in my skrill account after making
a withdrawel? How long should it take?
Do you think that the min withdraw should be the same as the min deposit?

i must say that i very much respect the way you present yourself and the casino you work for.
 
Hi there,

We try and process withdrawals within 0-24 hours after flushing. Our average time is about 3 hours, but I prefer to say 0-24 in case there are delays beyond our control.

Regards,
Dieter
 
Would you care to elaborate on that?
As I recall it, the CM member WAS the casino owner - and the most inept and incompetent one I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. :(
She was so bad, she even had the audacity to call myself and Bonustreak (a VERY respected webmaster), liars on a public forum :eek2:

Yes you are right, Rival have had their share of really shit operators. But they also have a few of the best operators on the net IMHO. Just the same as with most software providers, you have to be careful which of their casinos you choose to play at.

KK

Her PR was pretty effective though. She had members eating out of her hand as she offered out treats. It took the Blackjack paytable scandal to torpedo her credibility. The problem is that we can't even trust the actual OWNER of a Rival casino, let alone an employee of an operator. No matter how good a rep is here, they are still an employee. If the owner decides to do something dodgy, all the rep can really do is some fire fighting. Often a decent rep will part company once an owner starts turning bad, but this does nothing to help the players caught up in it.

It's not too dissimilar to the current situation where we have what seems to be one of the best reps we have seen for a Rival casino, with plenty of assurances that this time things will be different. Everything is going fine until some skeleton comes tumbling out of the closet and derails the BBF just as it seems that passing it is a certainty. Most of us only see what is made available to the public, so we have to work out what might be happening behind the scenes from past experiences of what happens in the public eye and what the eventual outcome is. With Rival, the eventual outcome is seldom positive.

We now have a predatory approach with the terms of some bonuses at Tropica. They allow Blackjack, but the bonus rules make it impossible to play the game properly as keeping within the rules sometimes requires players to deliberately "throw" a hand that according to strategy should be a good one. Rather than allowing Blackjack, they should accept that their rules make the game unplayable, and thus should make it a disallowed game for those bonuses that have such rules.

Expecting players to know that they are being lured into a poor situation with the table games is predatory. If a game is allowed, one would assume it was permitted to play it as intended under the rules.

This again is something that the owners have decided to do, leaving the rep to do their best to justify it.

As it is pretty rare to find a Blackjack friendly bonus, this makes this situation even more predatory as it is drawing in players to what they think is a true Blackjack friendly offer, when it's really a slots friendly bonus that is trying to look more inclusive than it really is. Affiliates who deliberately mislead Blackjack players into going after this bonus with deceptive marketing and reviews make matters worse.
 
They allow Blackjack, but the bonus rules make it impossible to play the game properly as keeping within the rules sometimes requires players to deliberately "throw" a hand that according to strategy should be a good one. Rather than allowing Blackjack, they should accept that their rules make the game unplayable, and thus should make it a disallowed game for those bonuses that have such rules.

More drama? really? My goodness, I don't know what you have against these guys but it seems like your on a crusade. These rules apply to a lot of casinos.

It is NOT impossible to play properly. You just have to adjust your bet size to allow you the flexibility to make those kinds of wagers if that is what YOU chose to do.
If you want to double or split then either make lower initial wagers or a larger deposit so you can make the wagers you like. What is so difficult to understand about this?
 
Vinyl,

You simply do not take the time to think before you post. You make up a statement in your head and then post it here as fact. There have been so many cases where your advice or comments were inaccurate and when you were informed of this, you simply resorted to bringing up things that had no relevance or was ancient history (as you have done here).

It is sad that you use your soapbox in this fashion. You were at one time, a respected member with valued input, but now, you simply go about bashing everything and everyone in some kind of perverted manner to make yourself feel good.

I will remind you once more (I have lost count) that the BBF was cancelled because of a fraudster been spoken to, too harshly. A fraudster used the forums to try and ruin our reputation and in an effort to blackmail us. Personally, I regret that she was spoken to in that manner, but frankly, if you had to see the correspondence and threats from her, you would understand why it reached the level it did. Scour the internet for any complaints about our service and you will understand why this incident should not have had any impact on our status or reputation, but did.

As for the promotional terms, how can it be rogue or predatory if it is clearly displayed on the site and in the cashier? I have already addressed the matter in the other thread along with 3 possible solutions, however it would seem this is not good enough for you? We will always address any complaints or issues (as has been demonstrated here on several occasions) and make changes to suit the customer. We have not been around for 5 years by cutting corners.

You are most welcome to reply with more fiction or stories about other casinos that have nothing to do with us, but you will simply be making yourself look more desperate and foolish than you already do with your continual bashing of Rival casinos.

Please post something constructive or wait for us to fail so that you can scream from the top of your lungs: "I told you so!"

Good evening,
Dieter

p.s. I guess this post means I lose my "cool head" reputation, but for now, it's necessary. I can't keep quiet while 1 person continues to undermine the hard work we put in. Especially someone who does not even play Rival software or takes the time to do research before posting. Sorry that you all have to be subjected to this tirade.
 
p.s. I guess this post means I lose my "cool head" reputation, but for now, it's necessary. I can't keep quiet while 1 person continues to undermine the hard work we put in. Especially someone who does not even play Rival software or takes the time to do research before posting. Sorry that you all have to be subjected to this tirade.

That was refreshing :notworthy

I guess it won't be a habit and since what you are saying is the truth at least it's ok with me :thumbsup:
 
OK - my opinions. Yes, Rivals have had a poor reputation in the past. Then again, Golden Lounge was a near-rogue site before coming into the 32red fold where it is now one of the best. Things DO change Vinyl!

Yes, Tropica made one goof regarding the fraudster which means Bryan won't entertain accreditation for a while if ever.
Despite this Tropica are hanging in here and are generally considered the most trustworthy Rival site. They (and Dieter) could have simply gotten discouraged, and buggered-off into the sunset to give up. They didn't.

Although not accredited, they are for all intents and purposes to us players an accredited site with an active rep, fast cashouts and will probably learn from us here how to get their CS up to that level to.

The fact a previous dodgy Rival owner came on here as a rep and buttered the forum up has no bearing on Tropica or Dieter!
KK would not promote them either if not satisfied of their integrity.

You can't keep knocking people for trying Vinyl.

If (and I doubt it) you are right in the long run I won't hesitate to be man enough to come back and post you an apology on here.

Like many RTG sites too, Rival do seem to have many permutations in their bonus offers which make reading the terms necessary. If you want to play BJ either don't take the bloody bonus, or bet at 1/3 of the maximum bet allowed by the 10% of deposit rule so you can double-down or triple with impunity. It's simple.

Too much bickering and not enough thought in this thread methinks....
 
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More drama? really? My goodness, I don't know what you have against these guys but it seems like your on a crusade. These rules apply to a lot of casinos.

It is NOT impossible to play properly. You just have to adjust your bet size to allow you the flexibility to make those kinds of wagers if that is what YOU chose to do.
If you want to double or split then either make lower initial wagers or a larger deposit so you can make the wagers you like. What is so difficult to understand about this?


Well, it's necessary because people just are not getting it.

If you are dealt a pair in Blackjack, the correct strategy is often to split, and not doing so reduces the TRTP of the initial hand dealt. If the rules prevent this split, then they in effect prevent the player from playing the hand properly, and they are forced to use an alternate strategy that might cause them to "throw" the hand.

With a max bet of as little as $3, there simply isn't the range of options available for a player to take this into account when selecting their chip. You need to allow for the possibility that you will both split 4 times, and get to double those 4 hands. For this, you need to be able to bet up to 8x your initial chip, which you can't do if you can only bet $3 in total.

The players who are getting caught have actually read the terms, but have assumed common sense will prevail where the flow of play dictates that they should split a hand, and they are then getting stung for following this flow of play.

Blackjack should be a prohibited game on these generic bonuses, and specific bonuses for Blackjack designed that allow the player to play the game properly.

This is not a problem elsewhere, as most casinos ARE taking a common sense approach, even if this approach is to list Blackjack as a prohibited game for the most generous offers.

iNetBet have bonuses for specific sets of games, and have slots bonuses, and alternative table and Blackjack bonuses that suit the style of play.

There is a fundamental difference between slots (which is just select bet & spin), and table games where the total outlay on any given hand depends upon the cards dealt.

The players getting caught are seeing the max bet, say $3, and are simply selecting $3 as their betting chip thinking this is what is intended.

They seem to be playing the majority of their hands at this level, and are only being caught because occasionally they get dealt pairs which should be split.

Doing the right thing would be the casino addressing this problem by removing the potential for this from their offer terms, rather than by using them as an opportunity to void the winnings of players who play Blackjack and end up walking into trouble.

To me, this is another negative indication of the business ethics of the owners, not necessarily those of the rep, they KNOW this is creating a problem, but they like it this way because any issues that do occur are in their favour.

Players need to be warned to steer clear of the Blackjack tables unless they have done a proper calculation of what their choice of chip might potentially lead to them needing to wager under all possible split/double combinations.

This is also an issue in poker games, where there is a play bet and sometimes a side bet, all of which will contribute to the total bet.

I have even seen slots where this might end up being an issue, for example the "Jackpot 6000" game where the Supermeter mode is played with bets well in excess of the base bet. If all casinos took such an anal attitude to the definition of the max stake rule, there would be loads of complaints from slots players who have wagered close to the max bet in a base game, but exceeded this when playing in a feature mode. This is the FIRST time I have seen this type of issue arise in the regular play of Blackjack. It has only been an issue before in some multi hand versions where a player can play several hands against the one dealer hand, and make the max allowed bet on each of these hands from the outset.

If one just sits back and takes it, nothing is going to change is it? If the problem isn't addressed, and too many players get caught out, it's going to be bad PR for the casino brand as they will be associated with the problem. Even the casinos in the rogue pit have often managed to justify the actions that got them there by referring to their terms and conditions, and that if the players had all read and agreed to them, then they only got what they expected.

Grand Prive screwed over affiliates and ended up in the pit, but what they did was covered within their terms and conditions, and they argued that therefore they did nothing wrong. The excuse was dismissed because the terms themselves were judged to be rogue, so their argument didn't help them.


It follows therefore that just because something is in the terms, and that these were agreed to by the customer, it does not make it always right when the terms are applied as written.


I am actually quite surprised at some of the crap that players from the USA are prepared to sit back and take just because their government has pushed their hobby underground where the usual rules of engagement no longer apply, and where taking a stand can mean having one's bank account suspended or getting blacklisted from most of the casinos still taking bets from US players. Casinos should worry about where the breaking point for US players lies, as if they are pushed TOO far, it's something they may end up having to learn the hard way.

Had the GRA and LGA made a serious effort at putting player protection first under the old whitelist arrangement, we would probably still have this arrangement as the UK government could not have hidden behind the player protection argument when making a tax grab on the industry, and this might have been enough to scupper the plan either in parliament, or in the courts.
 
Ok, this thread has just about been everywhere - and me thinks it's time to forkify it.

@VWM - really? How many puppies of yours did Dieter kick? Give it a rest, dude.
 
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