Top Game Missing Jackpot Questions

[Pinababy69]

Okay, I am starting a new thread on this simply for the fact that there are posts scattered all over the place, from different reps...both for TopGame and for Rome Casino. I figured it would be best to put it all in one place. The most recent post by TopGame (David, the previous rep for Thebes Casino) was actually in a spam complaint thread.

I, for one, would just like to know if the jackpot was removed, the game was removed, or both. And....has it been reinstated? Lots of conflicting info out there, and not too many straight answers. This is just one of those things that keeps me up nights, wondering about it.

A (somewhat) quick chronological series of events:

Back in May of 2009, a player named Eviecakes (Mavin1 here at CM) was playing at Rome Casino on the games Dougie's Delights and Diablo 13. This is when she noticed the missing symbols on the games, and started trying to get the casino to do something. Which they finally did...three weeks later, in mid June. But this thread is dealing with the progressive jackpot, so I'll try to stay focused on that. Below is her original post on CSR, with the relevant part highlighted:

I would just like voice a concern regarding my play Rome Casino. I have been playing there for a few weeks and did enjoy a couple of the slots like Dougiues Delights and Diablo 13. Dougiue had a rather large progressive of $192,000.00 that could only be won if the player got 5 wilds on a pay line, I played this game extensively and never once seen the wild symbol on reels 1 and 5, not even scroll by. Then one day the jackpot was gone so I concentrated on Diablo 13 as it currently has a jackpot of $145,000.00 running. Well, the game at first had wilds on all 5 reels consistently coming up at 3-4 many times making the payouts nice for the player, the bonus rounds which required at least 3 or more of the wizard to open was lousy, if you finally got it you may get $1 playing at 65 cents. Well then I logged on a few days ago to play Diablo 13 and they had changed the way the slot plays. The wilds had dissapeared from reels 1 and 5 and was rarely seen on 2, 3 and 4. But if you did get a five of a kind the payout was better than before but much harder to come by. The thing that really frustrated me was that the bonus rounds since the change now may or may not open. A few days ago when I was playing Diablo 13 I had gotten the 3 and 4 wizards 5 separate times playing max bets and not once did the bonus rounds open, which on the other few occasions when it did it was paying out better than the previous setting, but if it won't open, then the payer is being cheated out of bonus round winnings.

I wrote the casino an email voicing my concern which was not addressed. I played a $15 bonus they had put into my account yesterday and had moved on to the fruit slot that also had a progressive, but was totally irritated when the first bonus of getting 3 pineapples also did not open the bonus round.

So, this gets brought here to CM, and this is what was posted by Jan.Strydom, rep for Topgame (at that time anyway) on June 17, 2009:

3. firstly the progressive jackpot was removed from the game and not won.

Jonathan
Topgame

No further explanation was ever given by anyone from Topgame, or any casino rep, even though the question was asked many times. Nor was there ever a timeframe given as to when this jackpot/jackpot game would be returned...or why it was removed in the first place...much PRIOR to there being any malfunction admitted, on the part of Topgame. Why remove the jackpot/jackpot version of a game, when you insist it's functioning correctly? Which they did at that time.

So, fast forward to September of 2009, and Noah's responses to the jackpot game question, and the missing jackpot itself. He was responsive in saying that he would attempt to find the answer to the question, and this was his post on September 3, 2009:

Hi Pinababy69,

Thank you, even if you wouldn't like to be me

Unfortunately I still cannot find any evidence that this amount was actually taken off. The jackpot game itself, according to the tech department (I started working a month later) was removed on the 21st of May due to legitimate problems with it, there were indeed problems reported by players at the time if you will check the threads. In that regard you might say the jackpot was 'removed', as the game was removed. But actually reducing the jackpot amount - there is no record of that. I will get the game back up but right now the technical department is working on releasing a new game they've been working on.

It would be easier if I could find evidence, and I know you may think we're just denying it, but believe me this is what I know. And I do believe this all started on a single player accusation that was never backed up by any evidence nor confirmed by any other player. I try to be honest on these forums because I feel that this is a place for logical debates, so I have no problem admitting fault, but in this matter I really don't think that we did it, I believe we only took the game down due to problems. It wasn't put back up due to disorganization in the old tech team, and now mostly because the new team is busy with other things. But I will make sure its returned, I think I'll get it back up within the month.


Kind Regards,

Noah
Rome Casino

So here they say that the game itself was removed on May 21st, yet it wasn't until mid June that they publicly admitted ANY problems with the games. But whatever...not the point of this thread. The point is that they do admit the jackpot game (they say there are/were two versions of Dougie's Delights), was removed on May 21st...and as of September, 2009...still had not been returned.

And another post on September 9, 2009, verifying that the jackpot game was removed:

Hi Cindy,

I think you will see in the response by the Thebes representative that he too said there was no indication the jackpot amount was removed, but that the jackpot game was. To this date I still have found no evidence of the jackpot amount actually being removed from the game while the game was allowed to continue without it.

Kind Regards,

Noan

Again, all we're getting is the "jackpot wasn't removed, the game was". What difference does it make? If the game was removed, it follows that the jackpot was removed with it.

Once again, the subect was brought up in a spam complaint thread re: Topgame, and this is Topgame's reply. David used to be the rep for Thebes, a Topgame casino:

I particulary wanted to adress the issue of the fact that you seems to be under the impression that the 192K jackpot question was not answered.

I believe the question was answered and unless memory serves me incorrectly this 'issue' was adressed and solved.

What happened was the fact that there was a problem with a jackpot feed on one of our clients. At no time was any jackpot removed and not put back.

Kind Regards

David

Say what? A jackpot feed problem? They have to be shitting me. Two different reps from Topgame and Rome respectively, confirmed more than once, that the game itself with the jackpot, was removed. Now they're trying to say it was nothing more than a "feed" problem?

And yet, we have Mavin1, who played pretty extensively at TopGame, insisting that there was never TWO versions of the game...simply one, WITH a jackpot. This is her last post here on the subject, from January of this year, and according to her, the jackpot is still not there. And I'd also like to note that I don't really think she's been back since. She's probably as floored as I am, that now they don't even admit the jackpot funds were ever "missing" in the first place.

I just want to add that since you feel the missing jackpots issue has been resolved, that not everyone agrees to this and I for one feel Top Game has decieved the playing community with feable excuses as to where "They" went.

The excuse of there was a jackpot version and a non jackpot version is also false as I had stated before, there was always only "1" version of these mulit-line bonus slots. Maybe there may have been two versions before I started playing at TG, but when I started in June of 09, there was as I said, only one version of these slots with the progressives.

Grant it I have not read every thread on this forum but if you would please brief some of us again on the explaination of the missing jackpots. I have been having an ongoing love hate relationship with TopGame and each time I have gone back and played I tend to lean more and more towards the hate side of how I feel about TG casinos. One of the reasons is because I for one feel we have just being decieved on certain issues and the playing public made to feel like we are thought of as ignorant.

Below is my post from CSR, from Aug 09.

by Eviecakes on Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:08 pm

Isn't it odd, when I first started playing at Top Game/Rome, Dougies Delights had the wilds missing on reels 1 and 5, then the jackpot was removed, now it has wilds on all reels, but the jackpot is still awol. Then Diablo 13 which initially had wilds on all reels had them removed from 1 and 5, after the complaints they were put back, the jackpot stayed intact on this slot. Then I discover the pistols missing on Fandango on reel 2, so the game is taken offline and then returned with all symbols back in play, except the jackpot on this slot is no awol as well. Two major jackpots just phoof! Just a thought..........
Eviecakes

Honestly, I for one am not satisfied with the fact that since the jackpots were removed from Dougies Delights and Fandango, both multi-line slots, neither one has ever been re-instated to these slots.

Each time they vanished they were accompanied by other symbols that went missing.

For instance, I had played Dougies Delights for some time, noticing there was never a wild symbol spinning by on reels 1 & 5, so next thing the game is supposedly pulled and then put back up with the wild symbols on all 5 reels and the progressive was never seen again, not even to this day.
Then TG starts tinkering around with Fandango and I notice the pistol symbol missing along with the progressive it had.

A lot of people here are always saying what proof do you have, so I ask what proof can you show as to where these major amounts of money really went?
Or is it buried in a tin can at the bend of the dirt road near that camoflauged stealth business?

To sum up....where is this money? It was $192,000 we're talking about. Can someone who has Topgame installed on their computer go and check the game Dougie's Delights and tell us the amount of the progressive jackpot on that game? Or if there is even a progressive version of this game? Has it ever been put back?

You see what I mean about conflicting information? And not one straight answer..not one that makes sense, that's for sure. What a mess!!

See Related Threads:

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[maphesto]

At Gold Vegas there is three progressive jackpots. Dougie's Delights isn`t one of them.

Stars and Stripes 933 507, 46$
Monster Madness 875 614, 93$
Bingo 567 574, 48$

EDIT: It`s exactly like that at Black Diamond as well.

 

[Pinababy69]

At Gold Vegas there is three progressive jackpots. Dougie's Delights isn`t one of them.

Stars and Stripes 933 507, 46$
Monster Madness 875 614, 93$
Bingo 567 574, 48$

EDIT: It`s exactly like that at Black Diamond as well.

Thanks very much for that Maphesto. So not only is there no jackpot version of Dougie's Delights...but none either for Diablo 13 (which according to Mavin had a jackpot of $145K when she played), or for Fandango. Guess we'll see what Topgame have to say, if anything. If Dougie's Delights was removed on May 21st (jackpot version)...that's over eight months ago.

EDIT: After rereading Mavin's post, she said that the jackpot on Fandango DID stay intact after the game was replaced. But Maphesto, you're not showing a jackpot version of Fandango in your software? Is this game specific to only certain casinos within the Topgame network I wonder? Another question for TG I guess.

 

[maphesto]

If Dougie's Delights was removed on May 21st (jackpot version)...that's over eight months ago.

According to the strange monkey on the fifth reel in Crazy Jungle I wonder if that game also was a jackpot game before?

They have changed their symbols a lot, and the Crazy Jungle was changed in that time.

Gambling Lord Casino who according to the support manager of Rich Casino is no longer in business with the platform have same jackpot numbers..

My name is xxxxxxxxx, I am the Support Manager for Rich Casino, however I am also part of the executive team for TopGame. It has come to my attention that you are having trouble getting in touch with Gambling Lord Casino. It is for this lack of professionalism and unsatisfactory support that TopGame has suspended their account and thus they are no longer in business with the platform.

Gambling Lord Casino is no longer answering support emails(they bounce back) and their support phone is redirected to another casino. They don`t pay.

What happens if a player hit the jackpot at Gambling Lord?

Even more disappeared money?

Thanks Pinababy, this is also a proof for them still beeing connected to Top Game.

 

[Pinababy69]

According to the strange monkey on the fifth reel in Crazy Jungle I wonder if that game also was a jackpot game before?

They have changed their symbols a lot, and the Crazy Jungle was changed in that time.

Gambling Lord Casino who according to the support manager of Rich Casino is no longer in business with the platform have same jackpot numbers..

My name is xxxxxxxxx, I am the Support Manager for Rich Casino, however I am also part of the executive team for TopGame. It has come to my attention that you are having trouble getting in touch with Gambling Lord Casino. It is for this lack of professionalism and unsatisfactory support that TopGame has suspended their account and thus they are no longer in business with the platform.

Gambling Lord Casino is no longer answering support emails(they bounce back) and their support phone is redirected to another casino. They don`t pay.

What happens if a player hit the jackpot at Gambling Lord?

Even more disappeared money?

Thanks Pinababy, this is also a proof for them still beeing connected to Top Game.

To answer the question re: Crazy Jungle, going by the post below, I'd guess the answer is yes. It definitely WAS a jackpot game, and it was even won...on a $75 spin.

Hi everyone,

First of all let me apologise for the delay in announcing the fact that there was a winner of a 2.8 Million progressive jackpot at one of the casinos powered by Topgame.

I was not planning on announcing it as I believe that the casino involved should be doing so as after all it took place at their casino. However there was a delay caused by yours truly and the issue was raised here before the PR went out so hence I will post the release that was due to go out in full below.


"Crystal Spin Casino Announces a Progressive Jackpot Winner

Crystal Spin Casino is pleased to announce a multi-million dollar progressive jackpot win, on the Crazy Jungle video slot game. This is Crystal Spins largest jackpot to date.

San Jose, Costa Rica 22 October 2009 Crystal Spin Casino announces its first ever progressive jackpot win. Wendell B. won a 2.8 million dollar jackpot on the Crazy Jungle progressive video slot game. Wendell hit her jackpot on Wednesday, October 21st, on a $75 spin.

Crystal Spin is a small casino, but prides itself on doing honest business and using the best technology. The casino uses the Top Game software platform, and the Crazy Jungle game is a popular offering from the Top Game suite.

A spokesman for Crystal Spin Casino offered congratulations to Wendell B. on her big win, and added, The progressive jackpot on Crazy Jungle has been reset, and it will start growing again immediately. Were ready for the next big winner.
"

I would ask someone to please move any issue which falls under Topgame to a new TG thread please as I really do not want to answer in a Rome Casino thread.

As always should you have any questions please feel free to contact me or post.

Kind Regards

David

According to them, the jackpot was going to start growing again...but from what you've posted Maphesto, it looks like there is no Crazy Jungle Jackpot version then? I'd love to know if this Wendell B. got her 2.8 Million payment in one lump sum....cha ching!!

 

[Nifty29]

Well I dont have any answers for you Pina, but for goodness sake people think very very carefully before you play at any Top Game Casino.

Imagine if Mega Moolah or Wowpot were taken down one day and reinstated with no jackpot....there would be an internet riot!! The reason this matter isnt getting the negative attention it deserves is that TG are a very small fish. Come to think of it, thats probably one the reasons that they are and always will be.

 

[Pinababy69]

Well I dont have any answers for you Pina, but for goodness sake people think very very carefully before you play at any Top Game Casino.

Imagine if Mega Moolah or Wowpot were taken down one day and reinstated with no jackpot....there would be an internet riot!! The reason this matter isnt getting the negative attention it deserves is that TG are a very small fish. Come to think of it, thats probably one the reasons that they are and always will be.

*heavy sigh*

I doubt I'll get any answers Nifty, from anywhere. At least not anything satisfactory. I have a feeling this is gonna be one of those things that eventually I'll just have to let go, and stop obsessing about.

 

[bonustreak]

heavy sigh*

I doubt I'll get any answers Nifty, from anywhere. At least not anything satisfactory. I have a feeling this is gonna be one of those things that eventually I'll just have to let go, and stop obsessing about.

I hope this is not the case and you don't give up on this quest because there are a few very important questions Top Game need to answer in this thread if they are going to be completely transparent. The day this thread started I read it in my hotel rm in London and later met with a rep of Top Game, I expressed my concern about this thread. Let's give him time to get home and to come address your questions. I was told that TP takes all this very serious and they are wanting to fix any issues that arise, so lets see how this goes.

Any webmaster that is even thinking of promoting a TG casino should be wanting to know the reasons of the JP amounts and games just totally disappearing from the casinos.

 

[Pinababy69]

I hope this is not the case and you don't give up on this quest because there are a few very important questions Top Game need to answer in this thread if they are going to be completely transparent. The day this thread started I read it in my hotel rm in London and later met with a rep of Top Game, I expressed my concern about this thread. Let's give him time to get home and to come address your questions. I was told that TP takes all this very serious and they are wanting to fix any issues that arise, so lets see how this goes.

Any webmaster that is even thinking of promoting a TG casino should be wanting to know the reasons of the JP amounts and games just totally disappearing from the casinos.

Thanks so much for that Bonustreak!! I had been going to PM Topgame and ask them to comment here..but was giving them a few days to do it on their own. But now that I know you've made them aware of it....I will just leave it for now.

Thanks again..and it's nice to know that there are webmasters out there who care about this stuff.

 

[me_and_ed]

I would really really like to know if the progressive winner got paid or if it is all bullshit, there is just a huge cloud that follows this group around that will not go away, credibilty is completely shot.

 

[bb28]

Thanks Pina for taking the time and making the effort to summarize the history here and present the issues. Hopefully someone will respond and we'll get some answers. IMO.....if there is no response that in itself will speak volumes. No response should indicate that TG belongs in the rogue pit.

 

[topgame]

Hi everyone,

Regarding the questions raised in Pinababys post I am currently in the process of verifying all information with TG and the relevant departments. As soon as I receive this information I will update you all.

Kind Regards,


David

 

[gloria460]

Is there a way to pin this thread to the top until the rep comes back and addresses these issues. Too many important threads die too quick before most forum members see them and they are buried. These online shenanigans need to cease. It is getting very frustrating to have to constantly watch your back, side, front..you name it. They need to have some pride in their operations and give us a product that is beyond reproach...I won't hold my breath.

Thanks Pina for bringing this back up to the forefront and giving us a synapsis of what happened almost a year ago. I've only played them once and quickly uninstalled as they are not my cup of tea.

 

[topgame]

Hi everyone,

Having received my answers from Tech and management I will now as promised answer the questions that Pinababy was kind enough to put in one post.

As mentioned in a earlier post of mine TG pulled some games when they were notified and discovered that there was a problem with the jackpot and that the correct number was not being shown. As a result Fandango 15 lines and Dougies Delights 9 Line progressive jackpot was removed and as you may remember TG reimbursed all affected players much as was done with the Dioblo 13 slot around the same time.

The fact that the progressive jackpot feature was not put back on both these games was a business decision as both these slots were not very popular. Dioblo 13 was kept with progressive because this video slot was a lot more popular than the other two.

please note also that Crazy Jungle is also no longer a part of the progressive jackpot slots and yes for those of you wondering this was indeed after the 2.8 Million jackpot win by Wendell B.

I really would like to point out that the variety of slots and games on offer will change over time and that any changes that are made are nothing more than TG doing their best to improve the quality of the platform experience.

At no time was any money kept by TG and anytime that changes have been made money has been returned in full to anyone that was affected.

I hope that this answers your questions but as usual should you have any more please let me know. Also if any player is of the opinion that they were not reimbursed when changes were made I once again ask that you please contact me with your account details and I will look get it looked into at once.


Kind Regards


David

 

[maphesto]

@topgame:

Gambling Lord casino isn`t answer emails(they bounce) and their support phone is redirected to the support at another casino(they don`t know why).

Wilson Brown says that Top Game no longer do business with Gambling Lord casino according to an email from him dec 26 2009:

My name is Wilson, I am the Support Manager for Rich Casino, however I am also part of the executive team for TopGame. It has come to my attention that you are having trouble getting in touch with Gambling Lord Casino. It is for this lack of professionalism and unsatisfactory support that TopGame has suspended their account and thus they are no longer in business with the platform

Read this text from Wilson again:

It is for this lack of professionalism and unsatisfactory support that TopGame has suspended their account

Still Gambling Lord casino is working, players can deposit and they have the shared jackpots.

This means that customers at Black Diamond, Rich, Thebes, Rome, Gold Vegas and the others are paying for a jackpot that the terrible Gambling Lord casino can confiscate if a player at their casino hits it.

Support manager Wilson Brown at Rich Casino says that they no longer do business with Gambling Lord casino, still it says "rich Casino" at the NETeller receipt when players deposit at Gambling Lord.

I deposit at Gambling Lord casino(the receipt says "Rich casino) and won!

My account is blocked and Rich Casino has given me my deposit back after Wilson Brown says that they are no longer in business with the platform .

My question to you David:

If Top Game no longer are in business with them, is it Blefondia Holdings Ltd. or is it Rich Casino who owes me my winnings at Gambling Lord casino?

 

[Nifty29]

Oh dear Oh dear.......it just gets better huh?

Something is very fishy Mephesto - you really need to keep on this one and PAB as it looks like you have been deliberately misled.

As for the Jackpots etc.....I have one question that has NOT been answered in this latest post by David:

What happened to the progressive pool (which includes a % of player wagers) on the games that were removed?

David - you say Top Game didnt keep any money - so you should be able to tell us where those funds went? I very much doubt you refunded every single players wagers on that game from day one...Im sure someone would have posted about that, so whats the story??

 

[Pinababy69]

Hi everyone,

Having received my answers from Tech and management I will now as promised answer the questions that Pinababy was kind enough to put in one post.

As mentioned in a earlier post of mine TG pulled some games when they were notified and discovered that there was a problem with the jackpot and that the correct number was not being shown. As a result Fandango 15 lines and Dougies Delights 9 Line progressive jackpot was removed and as you may remember TG reimbursed all affected players much as was done with the Dioblo 13 slot around the same time.

The fact that the progressive jackpot feature was not put back on both these games was a business decision as both these slots were not very popular. Dioblo 13 was kept with progressive because this video slot was a lot more popular than the other two.

please note also that Crazy Jungle is also no longer a part of the progressive jackpot slots and yes for those of you wondering this was indeed after the 2.8 Million jackpot win by Wendell B.

I really would like to point out that the variety of slots and games on offer will change over time and that any changes that are made are nothing more than TG doing their best to improve the quality of the platform experience.

At no time was any money kept by TG and anytime that changes have been made money has been returned in full to anyone that was affected.

I hope that this answers your questions but as usual should you have any more please let me know. Also if any player is of the opinion that they were not reimbursed when changes were made I once again ask that you please contact me with your account details and I will look get it looked into at once.


Kind Regards


David

I really appreciate you taking the time to look into this David.

To address the first part of your post...yes, I remember that you guys did reimburse players who played on the games while they were malfunctioning. That however, has nothing to do with the progressive pool itself. I believe the players were reimbursed because there were wild symbols missing from the reels, thus not allowing them a fair game.

In re: Crazy Jungle...was this also not a popular slot and thus the decision to not reinstate the jackpot version, after it was won? I'd say that a game that generated a 2.8 million dollar jackpot had to be fairly popular. I'd hate to see what kind of jackpot would be attached to a popular game. One quick question re: the progressive win by Wendell B. Has she received her payment in one lump sum? And any chance there is any testimonial from her, or a pic perhaps?

I've highlighted the part of your post that deals directly with the progressives that were removed. First of all...thanks for finally giving me a definitive answer. All along, we've been told that the games (with jackpots) would be returned as soon as they were functioning correctly. Apparently, that is not the case though. Topgame made a business decision to discontinue progressive versions of these games, which is certainly their right to do so. However, when the games were removed, there were jackpots attached to each one. I can only approximate according to what Mavin1 posted, based on her play on these games. Dougie's Delights was roughly $190,000 and I don't know how much Fandango was at. Mavin1 only mentioned Dioblo 13 with a jackpot of $145,000 at that time. What was the amount of the JP on Fandango when it was removed?

So the question still stands. Remove the games if you like, but what about the money? I realize that progressives start off at a certain amount (seed money)...but after that, they are built up from the people who play them across the network. Each spin contributes a certain amount towards the total pool. So, minus whatever amount that Topgame seeded the jackpot with....the remainder belongs to the players, not the casinos nor the software company. So when TG removed these games...what was done with the money that was in the progressive pools at the time they were taken down? That's what I've been trying to get at for eight months now.

Say you started Dougie's at 50K (just an example)...there is still $142,000 unaccounted for. Anything over and above the seed money came directly from player contributions, and belongs to the players, all of them. And it should be returned to them. I believe normal procedure is to redistribute those funds into existing progressives still active across the network.

Or am I missing something? Thanks again David, I do appreciate you spending some time on this.

EDITED: I had Fandango and Dioblo 13 confused re: the amounts. And Maphesto has verified that there IS a jackpot version of Dioblo 13.

 

[maphesto]

About the jackpots, there are three of them and they have these games attached:

Stars and Stripes:

Red White Blue 3-lines
Red White Blue 5-lines
Sweet`s Surprise 3-lines
Sweet`s Surprise 25-lines

Monster Madness

Dioblo13

Bingo

Bingo Slot 3-lines
Bingo Slot 25-lines


I wonder if Crazy Jungle was in one of these or if it was i an own jackpot together with fandango?

 

[silcnlayc]

Nifty29:refunded every single players wagers on that game from day one

Nifty29, the way I asm reading his reply is that anyone that played at max coin , max line to achieve to hit the jackpots were reimbursed which would be a very , very small potion of players. Where the rest ogf the money went, who knows?

Since other players that played minimal amounts could not hit the jackpot, they were excluded from any monetary returns IMO...this is just the way I read it..since the ones that did'nt have a chance of hitting these jackpots were not due any reourse since they did not play the max amount..and were paid as to their bet sizes already during play.

Just my take on his reply:

At no time was any money kept by TG and anytime that changes have been made money has been returned in full to anyone that was affected.

Pinababy:they are built up from the people who play them across the network. Each spin contributes a certain amount towards the total pool. So, minus whatever amount that Topgame seeded the jackpot with....the remainder belongs to the players

Actually , the players that played max bet are the ones owed any monies..whereas the ones that played just to play in minimal coinage could not have won any of these jackpots...and with the players all knowing this, the players would not be due any monies back regardless of whether or not these funds were removed by the casino or not..

Since the players that played in low coinage amounts had no chance of winning at all...JMO and take on any jackpot offered like this ...players are aware of the contribution of their play but play anyway at most casinos like this without any question of returned funds if the jackpot is not acheivable by their play and they still play and contribute regardless.

.

 

[me_and_ed]

As much as David is trying to help questions are still not being answered fully or truthfully I believe. If you notice they are yes or no with little detail or commitment. TG has always hidden in the shadows, I think TG runs most of the casino's, Thebes, Rich, 7Spins, Casino Moons, Crystal Spin, Aztecasino, Gambling Lord and the list goes on (David signed up here as the casino manager for Thebes if my memory is correct and now for TG), I think some are independantly run but not most. The missing jackpot money which has been answered,a question over and over again has NEVER been answered, the progressive winner is a mystery person with no verification they even exist, Wendell B may as well be Joe Blow. Kinda reminds me of O J Simpson, we all know he did it but because he was so adamant that he was innocent he got a pass, same with Mark Maguire, he never said yes and never said no.....until recently. My patience has run out with this group, seems like a tangled web of deceit, and with nobody to answer to, we will probably never know.

 

[De Beuker]

I'm very sorry, but 2.8 MILLION??
Maybe I'm just over-suspicious, but lets face it, that has to be one of the largest payouts EVER in online gaming history, right?
I really can't remember any RTG or Rival progressive payout that comes close.
The only network progressive that can and has ever topped this is Microgamings Megah Moolah.

Has Topgame grown so big that their progressives can compete with MG?
Or is the percentage contributed to the PJ so insanely high?

 

[maphesto]

Or is the percentage contributed to the PJ so insanely high?

If the percentage was insanely high, the rtp is insanely low nowadays on the former jackpot games.

 

[gloria460]

At least the answers are more informative than they had been. The thing now is to clarify the missing jackpot money and the returned amount to players. If Mavin had been playing that slot quite a bit then she would be entitled to quite a bit of money over several months.

In order for players to get money back they would have had to been playing at max bet...the plot thickens...never mine Mavin you won't be getting anything as you were not playing for the jackpot but you thought that you were..confusing I think this is the software where you had to bet at least 45 $$s to hit the jackpot per spin so if you were playing less than that then they can say that you were not playing to hit the progressive..correct me if I'm wrong here and therefore do not owe players that were betting low but the question remains if any of those low bets or below $45 went into the progressive pool.

 

[topgame]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to make it clear since I do not wish to cause any misconfusion or make statements that are open to different interpretations and that is that all money contributed to a progressive jackpot that was discontinued was in fact paid back to the players at the time which I am sure some of you will recall.

When I used the word affected I meant anyone who played those games was reimbursed even those not playing maxbet/maxlines as after all each spin does contribute to the progressive.

This is back when I was casino manager for Thebes Casino a position I left to take up the position of representative for TG which I announced on Meister along with my motivation(s) for doing so.

There was some thought of distributing the money across the other progressive jackpot games but it was decided that this was the better solution and personally I would have to agree.


Kind Regards



David

 

[maphesto]

I do appreciate all things you do here David!

Still you didn`t answer my post about the fact that Gambling Lord casino(who owes me money) are doing business with Top Game.

I can understand that you as a rep can`t answer exactly what you want. But I do think that in the end there is the players who feed you. Players have to know about things like where their money goes. I don`t think many players want them to go to Gambling Lord Casino.

I will give you the post here again and then in PM(to get a read receipt)

@topgame:

Gambling Lord casino isn`t answer emails(they bounce) and their support phone is redirected to the support at another casino(they don`t know why).

Wilson Brown says that Top Game no longer do business with Gambling Lord casino according to an email from him dec 26 2009:

My name is Wilson, I am the Support Manager for Rich Casino, however I am also part of the executive team for TopGame. It has come to my attention that you are having trouble getting in touch with Gambling Lord Casino. It is for this lack of professionalism and unsatisfactory support that TopGame has suspended their account and thus they are no longer in business with the platform

Read this text from Wilson again:

It is for this lack of professionalism and unsatisfactory support that TopGame has suspended their account

Still Gambling Lord casino is working, players can deposit and they have the shared jackpots.

This means that customers at Black Diamond, Rich, Thebes, Rome, Gold Vegas and the others are paying for a jackpot that the terrible Gambling Lord casino can confiscate if a player at their casino hits it.

Support manager Wilson Brown at Rich Casino says that they no longer do business with Gambling Lord casino, still it says "rich Casino" at the NETeller receipt when players deposit at Gambling Lord.

I deposit at Gambling Lord casino(the receipt says "Rich casino) and won!

My account is blocked and Rich Casino has given me my deposit back after Wilson Brown says that they are no longer in business with the platform .

My question to you David:

If Top Game no longer are in business with them, is it Blefondia Holdings Ltd. or is it Rich Casino who owes me my winnings at Gambling Lord casino?

 

[Pinababy69]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to make it clear since I do not wish to cause any misconfusion or make statements that are open to different interpretations and that is that all money contributed to a progressive jackpot that was discontinued was in fact paid back to the players at the time which I am sure some of you will recall.

When I used the word affected I meant anyone who played those games was reimbursed even those not playing maxbet/maxlines as after all each spin does contribute to the progressive.

This is back when I was casino manager for Thebes Casino a position I left to take up the position of representative for TG which I announced on Meister along with my motivation(s) for doing so.

There was some thought of distributing the money across the other progressive jackpot games but it was decided that this was the better solution and personally I would have to agree.


Kind Regards



David

So you paid back the players who played games with missing symbols, with their own money?

Of course you should have distributed the money across the other jackpot games. That's how it's done.

Whatever "compensation" you made to players was your/Topgame's responsibility, for allowing them to play games that were malfunctioning for a month at least. So you're saying now that back in June when you compensated affected players for this...you used funds that they had already contributed to the progressive jackpots, rather than pay them from your own pockets? We don't even know how many people you actually compensated, do we? We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in progressive contributions over how long? Did you email your ENTIRE database, or only compensate those who were aware of the malfunctioning games via message boards, etc. and who contacted you themselves?

How convenient that eight months after we've been asking where this money went to....this is the explanation. That it was used as COMPENSATION for faulty software. Absolutely unbelievable. And why didn't someone say this back in June, when we kept asking over and over....where's the money from Dougie's Delights?

The compensation made to players was supposed to be because symbols were missing from the reels, I would assume thus changing the RTP drastically. Therefore no one who played the affected games actually got anywhere near a fair game. Now we find out you didn't compensate them for that at all. Topgame is saying they simply returned progressive contributions? And used progressive contributions to return deposits?

I wonder if amounts you popped into the player's accounts as payback had a WR attached to it?

Jas...you played the game Dougie's Delights I think right? How much compensation did you get?

I really think I've heard it all now. That progressive money should have been kept separate, not used as part of the day to day operating capital, to pay players who were ripped off playing gaffed software for a month at least. Over 300K of compensation you guys paid back? Yeah okay. No wonder you guys made a business decision to not reinstate those jackpot games....ha!!

I'm with me_and_ed...I'm done with them and done with this.

EDIT: Maphesto, please PAB on that and let Max handle it. I'd like to hear an answer on it as well...but I would also like to see you get your money/winnings.

 

[Pinababy69]

You know....I just went back and glanced through the original thread and lo and behold....found the jackpot amounts that Jas posted on June 18th. Dougie's Delights was removed on May 21st according to Topgame with a progressive jackpot of $192,000. Look at what Fandango (the other discontinued game) was sitting at:

these have jackpots
Bingo Slot 25 lines 81,353.05
Crazy Jungle 15 lines 494,429.20
Dioblo 13 lines 152,348.31
Fandago 15 line 460,448.67
Fruit Slots 25 lines 404,429.20
Sweet Surprise 25 lines 460,448.68

$460,000!!!

So that's approximately $650,000 between the two games....of PLAYER'S contributions. Forget my conservative estimate of 300K plus!! And you're telling us that every penny of that 650K (minus the original seed money) was returned to players?

And what about the players who played the games and contributed to the progressives while they WERE functioning correctly? Obviously you didn't pay back every single player who EVER played those games, since their inception...only the ones who played the malfunctioning variety. So those progressive contributions were used as well? The whole kit and caboodle. My God!!

And don't forget, Dougie's Delights Jackpot game was removed on May 21st...yet Topgame was INSISTENT that all games were functioning correctly....right up until June 17th...when they couldn't deny it anymore..and had to pull all the affected games.

Okay, I really am done. No need to even reply anymore David, I do appreciate you taking the time to come and post. At least I can put this one to rest in my mind now.

 

[Pinababy69]

I wanted to highlight how screwed up this whole Progressive Jackpot situation is at Topgame. In October, they say this Wendell B. won the 2.8 Million dollar jackpot at Crystal Spin Casino. I had asked earlier in the thread if she got paid the whole lump sum in one payment, as ANY reputable casino would do. After all, this isn't money coming from the casino's pocket directly right? It is player contributions from each and every spin on Crazy Jungle, at each and every Topgame casino. And it should be pooled, and kept in a separate fund....I would assume by the software supplier. When it's won...bang...it gets paid.

But no. Not with these guys. Reminds me of the lady Sylvia P. (?) who won the progressive at the Playtech casino, and ended up only getting part of it...because she didn't want to wait 20 years to collect all her moolah. So she took a reduced amount, lump sum payment.

I was reading some gaming news, and came across the "announcement" of Wendell B.'s win, at another site. So just for shits and giggles, I took a quick look at Crystal Spin's website...more specifically their withdrawal policies. Taken from their website:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

There is no limit to the amount a player can withdraw but there is a maximum amount that can be withdrawn in one week. For any withdrawal higher than $2500, an amount of $2500 will be paid to you once a week, upon your withdrawal request, until the full amount of your withdrawal request is paid. The same policy applies also to withdrawals of progressive jackpots.

$2,500 a week, including progessives. You know how long it will take her to collect her 2.8 million dollars, if she ever does? 1,120 weeks or 21.53 years...ha ha. Let's see, she won in October of 2009. That should make her final payment due sometime in the spring of the year 2030. Hope she's a young gal, and not a senior citizen. And who here really believes that Topgame will still be around 21 years from now?

Also, the money is paid out $2,500 per week, upon your withdrawal request. In other words, the balance sits in your casino account, and you have to go and manually request the $2,500 withdrawal every week. Gee, wonder why they do it that way?

Oh, and one other thing. Any financial wizards here who want to calculate how much interest Topgame earns on that 2.8 million of PLAYER'S money over the next 21 years? I don't have a clue, but I bet it's a hefty sum. It should be sitting in Wendell B.'s account earning interest...but not with these guys.

Just as with the Playtech issue...this is as crooked as it gets. And now I know why the Topgame rep skipped over the question re: payment when I asked it earlier.

It is just too easy for these casinos to screw with the progressive jackpots...and is a large part of the reason why I don't play them, period. If I were to play any, I would stick to Microgaming. Should I ever get lucky and win a million plus, I KNOW that within a few days or a week..that money is gonna be sitting in my bank account earning interest. Not in MG's account, so they can dole it out to me as they see fit. And using it to their own benefit in the interim.

If anyone needed another reason to NOT play at any Topgame clipjoint...here you have it.

 

[De Beuker]

I wanted to highlight how screwed up this whole Progressive Jackpot situation is at Topgame. In October, they say this Wendell B. won the 2.8 Million dollar jackpot at Crystal Spin Casino. I had asked earlier in the thread if she got paid the whole lump sum in one payment, as ANY reputable casino would do. After all, this isn't money coming from the casino's pocket directly right? It is player contributions from each and every spin on Crazy Jungle, at each and every Topgame casino. And it should be pooled, and kept in a separate fund....I would assume by the software supplier. When it's won...bang...it gets paid.

But no. Not with these guys. Reminds me of the lady Sylvia P. (?) who won the progressive at the Playtech casino, and ended up only getting part of it...because she didn't want to wait 20 years to collect all her moolah. So she took a reduced amount, lump sum payment.

I was reading some gaming news, and came across the "announcement" of Wendell B.'s win, at another site. So just for shits and giggles, I took a quick look at Crystal Spin's website...more specifically their withdrawal policies. Taken from their website:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)



$2,500 a week, including progessives. You know how long it will take her to collect her 2.8 million dollars, if she ever does? 1,120 weeks or 21.53 years...ha ha. Let's see, she won in October of 2009. That should make her final payment due sometime in the spring of the year 2030. Hope she's a young gal, and not a senior citizen. And who here really believes that Topgame will still be around 21 years from now?

Also, the money is paid out $2,500 per week, upon your withdrawal request. In other words, the balance sits in your casino account, and you have to go and manually request the $2,500 withdrawal every week. Gee, wonder why they do it that way?

Oh, and one other thing. Any financial wizards here who want to calculate how much interest Topgame earns on that 2.8 million of PLAYER'S money over the next 21 years? I don't have a clue, but I bet it's a hefty sum. It should be sitting in Wendell B.'s account earning interest...but not with these guys.

Just as with the Playtech issue...this is as crooked as it gets. And now I know why the Topgame rep skipped over the question re: payment when I asked it earlier.

It is just too easy for these casinos to screw with the progressive jackpots...and is a large part of the reason why I don't play them, period. If I were to play any, I would stick to Microgaming. Should I ever get lucky and win a million plus, I KNOW that within a few days or a week..that money is gonna be sitting in my bank account earning interest. Not in MG's account, so they can dole it out to me as they see fit. And using it to their own benefit in the interim.

If anyone needed another reason to NOT play at any Topgame clipjoint...here you have it.

Holy crap, I never thought about it this way, its insane.
Thanks for explaining this Pinababy.

About the interest, say they can get 4% a year over 2.8 million, that would be $28.000 x 4 = $112.000 a year.
Thats $2154 interest per week!
Max. withdrawl is $2500 a week!
So paying out a progressive would in fact hardly cost them anything...
This way these progressives are a very nice cashcow!!

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Holy crap, I never thought about it this way, its insane.
Thanks for explaining this Pinababy.

About the interest, say they can get 4% a year over 2.8 million, that would be $28.000 x 4 = $112.000 a year.
Thats $2154 interest per week!
Max. withdrawl is $2500 a week!
So paying out a progressive would in fact hardly cost them anything...
This way these progressives are a very nice cashcow!!

Great work, Lisa...........I know it takes a lot of time to expose these hoaxes!

Using the Rule of 72 and assuming an average balance outstanding (the avg. amount the hoaxers withhold or owe the winner, yeah right, oh yeah I almost forgot in escrow) of $2.4 to $2.6 million over ~ 12 to 18 years, you can estimate the number of years it will take for the $2.4 to $2.6 to double (and repeat doubling) by simply taking 72 and dividing by the assumed avg. annual return!

72/4%, ~ every 18 years, then repeats
72/7% ~ every 10 years, " "
72/10% ~ every 7.2 years, " "

Assuming 10%, the ~ historical avg. annual return for the US stock market, the hoaxers will have approx. $10 million on hand in 14.4 years that the winner could have possibly had on hand.

Wonder why it is a joke to accredit any casino that pays in any type of installment???? It is criminal whether small amounts or large amounts and to date not one of Bryan's justifications holds water except, jmo!!

 

[topgame]

Hi everyone,

Whilst I can fully understand that not everyone or anyone for that matter will always agree with my answers I most definitely do not shirk from answering any questions.

Statements such as "And now I know why the Topgame rep skipped over the question re: payment when I asked it earlier." would imply in fact that I tend to 'ignore' having to answer questions that I or TG do apparently "not like" and to be honest I think this is entirely untrue.

Im happy to answer any questions including the 2.8 million dollar jackpot and will pass your questions on to the right people to get you those answers in good time even though in this case I believe it to be more of an operator issue than a platform one.


Kind Regards


David

 

[maphesto]

even though in this case I believe it to be more of an operator issue than a platform one.

All casinos using Top Game platform share these progressive jackpots. Even Gambling Lord Casino (the one that Top Game according to Wilson Brown no longer have business with). This makes it a platform issue.

Who is the operator in this case?

Is it Blefondia Holdings Ltd.?

 

[Tengil]

At 2500/week the NPV for the player with a discount rate of 5% the 2,8 million jackpot is 1,732419 million.

For those who want to calculate with a different discount rate:

i= ln disc.rate/52, in my example ln1,05/52

1-(1+i)^1120 =a
i

NPV= a x 2500

will see if I have motivation to calculate the value for the operator later this day.

Edit: just a quick calculation (may well be wrong) with an interest rate of 5% gave a value of 1,469896 million for the casino. Does not include any inflation corrections etc.

 

[topgame]

Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David

It is not ridiculous, it is a scam. Maybe one day, when and if, lol.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

At 2500/week the NPV for the player with a discount rate of 5% the 2,8 million jackpot is 1,732419 million.

For those who want to calculate with a different discount rate:

i= ln disc.rate/52, in my example ln1,05/52

1-(1+i)^1120 =a
i

NPV= a x 2500

will see if I have motivation to calculate the value for the operator later this day.

Edit: just a quick calculation (may well be wrong) with an interest rate of 5% gave a value of 1,469896 million for the casino. Does not include any inflation corrections etc.

Link for quick calculators for NPV and others including NPV for an Annuity

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

EDIT:might as well as post The Rule of 72 info. and calculator

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[silcnlayc]

topgame Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David

So why have this in the T&C's? Only reason a casino keeps these in there is to use it against a player. Period. Just as some Rivals are now coming around to the idea that it is NOT ok to have this in the T&C's so should Top Game. Remove it it to prove it. That you would not hold this against a player otherwise, saying it means NOTHING.

Just as a players is held to the T&C's, so should the casino...so either remove it, or admit that it is there just for the reason you say that you will not do....just because you feel it is ridiculous to hold a player to the minimum weekly withdrawals on a progressinve, does not mean you won't...remmeber , it is in the T&C's...so your word would hold no water if it was implemented...as long as it sits in the T&C's...

.

 

[Tengil]

Hi everyone,

Yes its true that in the terms and conditions of that casino it states that the maximum withdrawal is $2500 USD per week and that this applies to progressives as well.

However without going into specifics of payment (as that is a matter between the player, the casino and TG) I can assure you that it is definitely not TG policy to pay out progressives spread out over a long period of time as we too are obviously of the opinion that paying out a progessive at the rate of $2500 a week is ridiculous.

Kind Regards,


David

So is it you (TG) or the individual casino that pays out the progressive?

And the calc isnt really useful in this situation (assuming a payment of 2500/week) as the sum on which the interest is calculated on decreases by 2500/week.

E:Worth to note in my calculation of the casinos value I only calculated the cumulative amount of the interests for every week.

 

[De Beuker]

So is it you (TG) or the individual casino that pays out the progressive?

And the calc isnt really useful in this situation (assuming a payment of 2500/week) as the sum on which the interest is calculated on decreases by 2500/week.

Not really. As soon as the progressive is won, $2500 per week goes out of the pool, but ppl keep playing these progressives, so money will keep coming in also.
And that might be alot more than $2500 a week if a progressive builds up to 2.8 million in a year time..

 

[Tengil]

Not really. As soon as the progressive is won, $2500 per week goes out of the pool, but ppl keep playing these progressives, so money will keep coming in also.
And that might be alot more than $2500 a week if a progressive builds up to 2.8 million in a year time..

I assumed Playtech like scenario (Joyland fiasco) where the JP is payed to the casino which then pays it to the player.
E: Or the recent PartyCasino JP winner who has already played back 2 million in one month after his close to 5 million win in Dec 09. They have a wd limit of 100k/month.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Not really. As soon as the progressive is won, $2500 per week goes out of the pool, but ppl keep playing these progressives, so money will keep coming in also.
And that might be alot more than $2500 a week if a progressive builds up to 2.8 million in a year time..

Nice---@ all, it is no secret that many assumptions are made in the posted calculations including taxes,inflation,some calculating the present value of an annuity annually with weekly disbursements,leverage,currency,hedging,blah blah but the point is crystal clear that the con game goes on and on.

Phuck TandC's, the player doesn't obey them on credit cards, but for casinos , go ahead and worship, bow while being scammed.........Pathetic and the player is just as responsible as these reps. who are all fingers. Afterall words are cheap or actually free.

The FBI is aware of the scams, they just will not do anything as they consider the player in the US do be engaging in an illegal activity so what happens if it becomes legal. Hopefully, some want to find out.

 

[thelawnet]

At 2500/week the NPV for the player with a discount rate of 5% the 2,8 million jackpot is 1,732419 million.

For those who want to calculate with a different discount rate:

i= ln disc.rate/52, in my example ln1,05/52

1-(1+i)^1120 =a
ie

NPV= a x 2500

will see if I have motivation to calculate the value for the operator later this day.

Edit: just a quick calculation (may well be wrong) with an interest rate of 5% gave a value of 1,469896 million for the casino. Does not include any inflation corrections etc.

5%? You must be joking.

The player is in a MUCH worse position than say a bond holder, and I would expect a bond holder to demand more like 10% to lend money to Topgame.

If you said 15%, that would be more appropriate for modelling the value of the jackpot to the player on such a basis.

 

[Tengil]

5%? You must be joking.

The player is in a MUCH worse position than say a bond holder, and I would expect a bond holder to demand more like 10% to lend money to Topgame.

If you said 15%, that would be more appropriate for modelling the value of the jackpot to the player on such a basis.

5% is usually used in examples altough I agree that one would be in a bad position so the discount rate should probably be well over 20%. So the "true" NPV of a JP IF paid only in 2500 weekly installments would be closer to half a million.

And my formula contains an error I just noticed, there should be a minus before 1120 (^-1120).

 

[NASHVEGAS]

5%? You must be joking.

The player is in a MUCH worse position than say a bond holder, and I would expect a bond holder to demand more like 10%to lend money to Topgame.

If you said 15%, that would be more appropriate for modelling the value of the jackpot to the player on such a basis.

The slammer boys, Milken nor Boesky with their A-Game could not sell this junk at any yield.

 

[gloria460]

bump, grind, slither