Time To Ban The Feature Buy!

[trancemonkey]

We really need this tested out over a long period of time to prove this or otherwise.

You need what tested? Whether the odds are what they appear to be or whether the RNG makes one call per gamble?

 

[snorky510238]

I have seen plenty of people on the run from hell when gambling the feature but not one single video of someone winning every gamble that tells me more than enough.

 

[EkJR]

You need what tested? Whether the odds are what they appear to be or whether the RNG makes one call per gamble?

The wheel odds. BTG have stated categorically that the odds quoted are right, this has been disputed all over the place.

 

[trancemonkey]

The wheel odds. BTG have stated categorically that the odds quoted are right, this has been disputed all over the place.

I have a theory about this... I'm working on it. I will report back on any findings... But it might take a while

 

[EkJR]

I have a theory about this... I'm working on it. I will report back on any findings... But it might take a while

This is from BTG when I argued the point elsewhere with them.

"There is no dispute in the math it's 60/40 in the players favour on each single spin after the initial spin from 8. What you need to remember is the odds roll. From the first spin to get to 24 is a 1 in 10 chance. However, if you get enough scatters to start at 20 then the single gamble is 60/40 in your favour, these are the hard stats for getting 24 spins:

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 1"

 

[trancemonkey]

This is from BTG when I argued the point elsewhere with them.

"There is no dispute in the math it's 60/40 in the players favour on each single spin after the initial spin from 8. What you need to remember is the odds roll. From the first spin to get to 24 is a 1 in 10 chance. However, if you get enough scatters to start at 20 then the single gamble is 60/40 in your favour, these are the hard stats for getting 24 spins:

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 1"

I didn't think that was the issue .. I thought the issue is that players don't believe it's 50/50 or 60/40

 

[EkJR]

I didn't think that was the issue .. I thought the issue is that players don't believe it's 50/50 or 60/40

Yes it's the same thing really. I asked them about the wheel odds and that's what they have said. Players in the main don't not believe these are the true odds. I think the 8 to 12 is a true gamble, the gamble from 12 to 16 is not for me anywhere near 60/40

 

[sledge13]

To be able to lose when buying a feature not once but yes TWICE and most of the time is just sickness on BTG, they literally laughing at us for playing their slots.

 

[dunover]

This is from BTG when I argued the point elsewhere with them.

"There is no dispute in the math it's 60/40 in the players favour on each single spin after the initial spin from 8. What you need to remember is the odds roll. From the first spin to get to 24 is a 1 in 10 chance. However, if you get enough scatters to start at 20 then the single gamble is 60/40 in your favour, these are the hard stats for getting 24 spins:

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 1"

Yes, we've been through that and BTG confirmed it, that it's just over a 1/9 chance of 24 spins. Indeed from testing the game I'd say that's pretty much spot-on.
The first 50-50 gamble though is totally misleading IMO and cannot be a true 50-50 for two reasons:

Firstly, it needs to account for the frequency of 4-scatter triggers on the purchase spin which start you on 12 anyway.
Secondly, achieving 12+ spins opens up the 60-40 gambles and from 12 spins onwards you are essentially procuring spins with a far higher average return given the effect of the increasing multiplier up to that point.

So I agree that the terminal 24 spins is OK but in between a 3-scatter trigger and getting there the graphics aren't a stage-by-stage accurate representation, and I haven't heard of anybody testing the game in demo buying the feature and reporting around 50-50 on the 8-12 gamble over tens of tries.

 

[nikantw]

So I agree that the terminal 24 spins is OK but in between a 3-scatter trigger and getting there the graphics aren't a stage-by-stage accurate representation, and I haven't heard of anybody testing the game in demo buying the feature and reporting around 50-50 on the 8-12 gamble over tens of tries.

Fine, I will try to do it this weekend and let you know.

 

[lockinlove]

It's not about attractiveness and temptation isn't an excuse. If you can't control yourself you shouldn't play, period. If you need help there are ways to block yourself from playing. Don't put the responsibility for excessive behaviour on slot designers. That's like putting the responsibility of your eating habits on Burger King.

It's very bad to ask others to take the responsibility for your actions and this is true outside of the gambling world as well.

Now do I like a bonus buy feature? No I don't. I think it ruins the slots which is why I don't play them. I know one thing though: if the bonus buys aren't popular they will stop making them. That's the best kind of regulation.

Of course its about the attractiveness. You tried to compare it to roulette. Its not. Its the very essence of attractiveness to have the chance to hit a monster.

Now you are trying to compare $2000 bonus buys to burger king. Again, not the same thing.

You also try to clump everyone as the same. Hey be strong enough, dont gamble. Get a grip. thats nothing but an annoying sound byte. Almost the Same thing as telling someone with schizophrenia to suck it up.

I work in a hospital alot of gamblers have mental illnesses the most common being bi polar. Excitement is what they chase for that up. And when they crash, they crash hard.

Sure it may not be the slot designers fault completely because it is their job to entice attractive games to entice deposits into casinos.

I think ive read a post from every single member that they have had a moment of weakness and lost control. Its easy to do when all you have to do is push a button.

Do you blame the slot provider? Meh. So my point stands. I dont like it and if others dont they should report it the gaming commission and let them decide.

 

[Scott1baird]

As everyone knows the instant to click spin or buy that the result is pre determined so if you get 8 spins the final result would be the same as if you gambled to 24 spins. The only real factor is whether or not you are willing to risk the 8 or 12 spin predermined result against a zero win.

 

[Balthazar]

Now you are trying to compare $2000 bonus buys to burger king. Again, not the same thing.

The behaviour to ask others to adapt to your issues is the exact same.

"I'm a gambler and when I see a bonus buy feature, I buy them until I'm broke. I still play slots though. Please remove the bonus buy".

"I'm an alcoholic and when I see a bottle a rum, I have to drink it. I still go to the bar though, please stop selling liquor".

"I have an eating disorder and I'm 350 lbs. When I see cheeseburgers I have to eat them until I'm sick. I like to come to Burger King though, please stop selling cheeseburgers"

First guy shouldn't gamble, second guy shouldn't go in bars and third guy shouldn't go to a fast food restaurant. Don't try to ruin it for others who might enjoy it because you have issues.

Almost the Same thing as telling someone with schizophrenia to suck it up.

Nope. Not even one bit.

 

[Reelsoffun]

As everyone knows the instant to click spin or buy that the result is pre determined so if you get 8 spins the final result would be the same as if you gambled to 24 spins. The only real factor is whether or not you are willing to risk the 8 or 12 spin predermined result against a zero win.

Here we go again, its not predetermined at that point, BTG has said that many times and I believe them as it makes sense, how would it be compliant if that was the case.

So your saying the other week when I gambled to 20 and 24 spins and won over £400 it was gonna still pay that on 8 Really? Have you ever collected 8 on extra chilli its brutal 99% of the time, I believe each spin is random, it could be weighted via reel strips of course for each multi or each band of multi, but IMO each spin is random as BTG have stated more than once.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Is it dangerous? Yes
Is it useful? Also yes!

The option to bet $10 to buy a feature instead of betting $10 on a spin on any other slot is a very very good thing.

I agree with you that the option to gamble the feature you bought (and lose it all) in Extra Chilly is too much. But the ban is wrong. The ban is a bad thing.
A forced max bet limit < 2% of the balance, combined with SOW and the option to buy features at a much smaller cost (normal min bet down to $0.01) is exactly what this needs.

Forced max bet limit < 2% of the balance and min bet 0.01 is what we should be asking IMHO.

I dont agree with the 2% bit as all that would do is force people to put more on so that they can do bigger bets, totally the opposite of RG.

The amount of times i have deposited £50 and played 20p/40p bets down to last £10 or so and done the last spins at much higher like £1 - £4 and hit and got all my deposit back and some! that would really hurt if there was always a rule like that in place, that would be hell like having a max bet while on a bonus, you would actually probably be giving the casino an advantage!


While i understand that these bets can be dangerous, I have several times played the base for so long that I lost way more than the feature buy cost before a feature came anyway so not always much difference.

On the subject of them being dangerous, if a player finds them too much of a temptation, then maybe they shouldn't be gambling at all.

I have also several times done a deposit on the base to then reload, do a few buys, gamble to 20 or 24 and made it all back, playing the base would have been far harder and more time consuming, so there is always 2 sides.

I agree that there should be a max feature buy of maybe £50 keeping in line with the BIG bets type of stakes. £1000/£2000 feature buys are madness!

 

[paul7388]

Everyone has their own take on why you should gamble the spins.

Personally i have played it a good bit lately. Sometimes gambling to 24 spins. But found they never even paid great.

Where as i have had quite a few decent hits as well. All off the 8 spins. Find if it is going to pay it really does not matter amount of spins you collect.

The 8 spins can same as Bonanza give you several low wins that build up your multiplier then drop in a great win few spins later. Or as seems to happen a lot it gives you a retrigger on first spin or two.

But all the biggest wins i have had have all been from 8 spins.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Everyone has their own take on why you should gamble the spins.

Personally i have played it a good bit lately. Sometimes gambling to 24 spins. But found they never even paid great.

Where as i have had quite a few decent hits as well. All off the 8 spins. Find if it is going to pay it really does not matter amount of spins you collect.

The 8 spins can same as Bonanza give you several low wins that build up your multiplier then drop in a great win few spins later. Or as seems to happen a lot it gives you a retrigger on first spin or two.

But all the biggest wins i have had have all been from 8 spins.

I think that's just lucky then? I have just looked at all my 8 spins log and never had one pay more than 50x except ones that were a gamble that dropped me to 8 spins.

24 spins spins however have hit 1000x quite a few.

I might be bias tho as extra chilli has been kind to me on all the casinos that I remember, Videoslots is my worst RTP currently out of all of them but even that's not terrible so mixing feature buy with normal base game playing works for me.

 

[sledge13]

The behaviour to ask others to adapt to your issues is the exact same.

"I'm a gambler and when I see a bonus buy feature, I buy them until I'm broke. I still play slots though. Please remove the bonus buy".

"I'm an alcoholic and when I see a bottle a rum, I have to drink it. I still go to the bar though, please stop selling liquor".

"I have an eating disorder and I'm 350 lbs. When I see cheeseburgers I have to eat them until I'm sick. I like to come to Burger King though, please stop selling cheeseburgers"

First guy shouldn't gamble, second guy shouldn't go in bars and third guy shouldn't go to a fast food restaurant. Don't try to ruin it for others who might enjoy it because you have issues.

Ermmm no, this is the same as if you went into Burger King and they offered you a £5 chance gamble to win 10 burgers, 5 large fries and a blow job but you keep losing, try and think a bit more out of the box Mr Balth.

 

[Scott1baird]

Here we go again, its not predetermined at that point, BTG has said that many times and I believe them as it makes sense, how would it be compliant if that was the case.

So your saying the other week when I gambled to 20 and 24 spins and won over £400 it was gonna still pay that on 8 Really? Have you ever collected 8 on extra chilli its brutal 99% of the time, I believe each spin is random, it could be weighted via reel strips of course for each multi or each band of multi, but IMO each spin is random as BTG have stated more than once.

Yes that's what I am saying. The moment you press spin or buy the game sends to the database it gets a pre determined response aka RND . sends it back. Now you have what has been sent to you. Say 50x win whether or not you have 8 spins or 24 spins the result will be the same. Only difference is the gamble

 

[Scott1baird]

Yes that's what I am saying. The moment you press spin or buy the game sends to the database it gets a pre determined response aka RND . sends it back. Now you have what has been sent to you. Say 50x win whether or not you have 8 spins or 24 spins the result will be the same. Only difference is the gamble

And yes I have had many 400x wins on 8 spins.

 

[paul7388]

I think that's just lucky then? I have just looked at all my 8 spins log and never had one pay more than 50x except ones that were a gamble that dropped me to 8 spins.

24 spins spins however have hit 1000x quite a few.

I might be bias tho as extra chilli has been kind to me on all the casinos that I remember, Videoslots is my worst RTP currently out of all of them but even that's not terrible so mixing feature buy with normal base game playing works for me.

View attachment 96720

Same way as i would just think you were unlucky.

I used to collect 8 and they paid little at first.

So like many others i started gambling. Realized that even 24 was rubbish most of times.

Then got fed up taking ages to get 3 bonuses for example to lose them all and get nothing.

So started just collecting all the time and to me they pay same as Bonanza. Some next to nothing others 100x 250x 500x wins. As i said if its going to be a good bonus it builds multiplier quick then drops a good win or gives you retriggers to boost spins.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Players are to blame for this really because more and more value is being put on high variance and potential . But guess what you can't have high variance and huge potential without the potential for huge sustained losses . The maths won't add up otherwise . The reason there is the gamble feature on extra chilli for example is because otherwise the game would not be able to pay huge without having a ton of extremely bad features . For every bonus that pays 10x your buyin you are going to need 20 that only give you half your buyin back (and slight more unless the rtp is 100%) . So to get round this problem they introduce the gamble feature as a way of paying a lot of "zero" bonuses and that enables them to have some bonuses which pay huge

If low variance games were earning most of the market share in casinos then that is the sort of games slot providers would be developing

 

[SlotGrinder]

If you dont like the buy in feature don't play that slot simples, BGT wasn't the first either for that, there is another game out way before BGT that you can buy the feature on forget the name but its an elf based game with dropping wilds.

Yes and the bonus paid most of your stake back or not much more i.e it was quite low variance . Think it cost 100x to buy the bonus and you'd get between 60% -150% back pretty much always .. ironically for this reason it didn't generate much interest
Like I said you can't have your cake and eat it . You want bonuses that potentially pay 1000s+ x then there has to be another side of the coin i.e bough bonuses that pay very very little . the gamble feature on chilli is just a way of giving a 0x bonus essentially , thu enabling them to sometimes pay out huge bonuses whilst keeping the overall rtp at 96%

 

[SlotGrinder]

So no RNG determines the first gamble of the slot, I.e 8 to 12? How is that determined? Or indeed the second gamble etc. It's all very confusing, need Einstein to work it all out for us

You can get an individual rng result for every stage of the process. Theres nothing complicated about it.

 

[mack341]

Players are to blame for this really because more and more value is being put on high variance and potential . But guess what you can't have high variance and huge potential without the potential for huge sustained losses . The maths won't add up otherwise . The reason there is the gamble feature on extra chilli for example is because otherwise the game would not be able to pay huge without having a ton of extremely bad features . For every bonus that pays 10x your buyin you are going to need 20 that only give you half your buyin back (and slight more unless the rtp is 100%) . So to get round this problem they introduce the gamble feature as a way of paying a lot of "zero" bonuses and that enables them to have some bonuses which pay huge

If low variance games were earning most of the market share in casinos then that is the sort of games slot providers would be developing

The thing is when they developed and launched the game how could they know whether anyone or how many would opt to gamble those 8 spins, so how could they work out the rtp distribution across the different spin amounts? If no one ever gambled and just took the 8 spins the big wins would have to be awarded in the 8 spins

Maybe the average number of spins required to trigger a bonus, 230, also applies to the gamble wheel. So if a person successfully gambles to 24 [3x the amount of spins in a normal bonus] that counts as if the game has given out 3 bonuses bearing in mind on average the game will only give out 1 bonus per 230 spins. To keep the maths on track 460 extra spins without a bonus have now got be spun by somebody else.

I think the 1500x+ wins are so rare they can come in any of the spin amounts 8,12,24 etc.. the 400 to 1500 are probably more common in the 16-24 spin range, I had a 3600x win in 8 spins on 20p from landing about 15 or so purple chillis, so if you are after one of the big very rare wins you might as well keep taking the 8 spins rather than losing them half the time.

 

[SlotGrinder]

idk how the maths works exactly but I guess the avg rtp of taking 8 spins is 96% and the rtp of 12 spins is 192% but ofc you lose half the time and get zero so that works out as 96% per bonus
16 spins would be reached 50% x 60% = 30% of the time so the avg rtp of that bonus should be 333% x 0.96 = 320%
After that you get compensated with some spins if you lose the gamble so I cba to try and work that out

IF the avg rtp of taking the 8 spins is not 96% then it means you have to gamble to get the stated rtp which would be unfair

 

[goatwack]

I'm totally getting these figures, keep 'em coming

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[SlotGrinder]

Im just guessing ofc . I really think BTG should have to publish the expected rtp of each number of spins so you do at least know what you are gambling for..

 

[TheAddict]

Can imagine a few n00bs buying the bonus, having some fun while reguarely collecting 8 or 12 spins alot with the odd rare gamble going for 16 or even 20, and after a few weeks of very few spectacular results deciding to actualy look at the information page, only to find they werent investing enough money to meet the apparant "optimal strategy" which is explained as to always gamble the free spins.
Then proceeding to do an absolute ass load more trying to get a big win still buying features but this time gambling to 24 all the time.

 

[zreb]

Players are to blame for this really because more and more value is being put on high variance and potential . But guess what you can't have high variance and huge potential without the potential for huge sustained losses . The maths won't add up otherwise . The reason there is the gamble feature on extra chilli for example is because otherwise the game would not be able to pay huge without having a ton of extremely bad features . For every bonus that pays 10x your buyin you are going to need 20 that only give you half your buyin back (and slight more unless the rtp is 100%) . So to get round this problem they introduce the gamble feature as a way of paying a lot of "zero" bonuses and that enables them to have some bonuses which pay huge

If low variance games were earning most of the market share in casinos then that is the sort of games slot providers would be developing

This is probably a part of the reason a game like immortal romance is/was so popular - people are enticed by the theoretical maximum wins with 4/5 wild reels. But the odds of those are so low that it saves enough of the rtp for the rest of the game to play as medium variance - keeping the dream (or the illusion) of the monster win alive without smashing the player like a true high variance slot can.

Of course, the high variance slots can be popular because they actually DO spit out those 1000-3000x wins once every 20,000 spins or so. But in exchange, they really crush you most of the other times.

 

[lockinlove]

The behaviour to ask others to adapt to your issues is the exact same.

"I'm a gambler and when I see a bonus buy feature, I buy them until I'm broke. I still play slots though. Please remove the bonus buy".

"I'm an alcoholic and when I see a bottle a rum, I have to drink it. I still go to the bar though, please stop selling liquor".

"I have an eating disorder and I'm 350 lbs. When I see cheeseburgers I have to eat them until I'm sick. I like to come to Burger King though, please stop selling cheeseburgers"

First guy shouldn't gamble, second guy shouldn't go in bars and third guy shouldn't go to a fast food restaurant. Don't try to ruin it for others who might enjoy it because you have issues.



Nope. Not even one bit.

Except for eating disorders and gambling are not the same. When someone orders a hamburger they arent promised a genie might pop out and give the something more spectacular. Eating disorders are a psycological disorder. Gambling addiction is for the most part not a psychological disorder although many people with disorders are gambling. It takes one moment of weakness to lose your life savings buying features. It doesnt take a moment of weakness to die of burger consumption. Chasing losses is dangerous and can and has happened to everyone here. Chasing down a hamburger not as much.

Gambling offers you an attractive chance to win $20,000 on a $1 spin. Its enticing to people, giving them the essence of possibly financial freedom. Alcohol promises nothing. They are not all in the same boat.

A better example is gun laws in Canada. We arent allowed to walk around with guns because of lunatics. So by your line of thinking everyone should be able to carry grenade launchers because not everyone are lunatics. Governments and commission exist for a reason. Its to help stop people being self destructive because humans are built with flaws and not robots. Ive seen some of the most in control streamers lose control and blow $20,000 on feature buys and then sit there like wtf just happened.


This is why entire countries ban casinos and they dont ban hamburgers. This is also why responsible gambling exists. This is why credit card companies restrict depositing in casinos but wont block people buying a hamburger.

And even alcohol consumption has guidelines. You cant drink and drive, you cant drink in public. Why? Because its dangerous to yourself and others. So can gambling. So we should just lift drinking and driving laws because some people can be in control when drinking 2 beers but others cant? So they ruin it for others?

Sorry but your line of thinking that people shouldnt just gamble if they cant be in control is not reality. It sounds like a catchy sound byte but thats all it is.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes that's what I am saying. The moment you press spin or buy the game sends to the database it gets a pre determined response aka RND . sends it back. Now you have what has been sent to you. Say 50x win whether or not you have 8 spins or 24 spins the result will be the same. Only difference is the gamble

You can ignore FunnyMunny if you want but he's right and you're wrong. The game doesn't go to the server and get a value of 50x and pay it regardless... Every decision you make affects the final outcome. If you take 8 spins you MIGHT be very lucky and get 400x but if you somehow gambled to 24 spins you would be more much more likely to get that value or more. Why do people find it so hard to understand that nothing is predetermined...

 

[trancemonkey]

idk how the maths works exactly but I guess the avg rtp of taking 8 spins is 96% and the rtp of 12 spins is 192% but ofc you lose half the time and get zero so that works out as 96% per bonus
16 spins would be reached 50% x 60% = 30% of the time so the avg rtp of that bonus should be 333% x 0.96 = 320%
After that you get compensated with some spins if you lose the gamble so I cba to try and work that out

IF the avg rtp of taking the 8 spins is not 96% then it means you have to gamble to get the stated rtp which would be unfair

You're almost right but you went off a bit at the end...

8 spins will pay, on average, whatever value it needs to pay (i.e if the feature is every 250 spins with 20% RTP associated with it it will pay an average of 50x.

12 spins might pay and average of 100x, which is why you have a 50% chance of winning the gamble or losing (assuming it is a 50% chance but for the sake of argument we will assume it is).

So if you take the 8 spins you'll get on average 50x and if you gamble to 12 spins you'll get 100x if you win and 0x if you don't. So the average win from the gamble to 12x is still 50x.

Make sense?

Because the average pay from the first gamble is still the feature average anything after that just means you are getting a higher return but the average from the feature REGARDLESS of what you do is still 50x

 

[dionysus]

Why do people find it so hard to understand that nothing is predetermined...

Because confirmation bias.
People would sooner wait for someone else to say' youre right, its rigged...because....pixies and faeries' than listen to someone who actually has a clue

 

[snorky510238]

You can ignore FunnyMunny if you want but he's right and you're wrong. The game doesn't go to the server and get a value of 50x and pay it regardless... Every decision you make affects the final outcome. If you take 8 spins you MIGHT be very lucky and get 400x but if you somehow gambled to 24 spins you would be more much more likely to get that value or more. Why do people find it so hard to understand that nothing is predetermined...

So are you saying no feature is predetermined on any game?

 

[Siohmy]

You're almost right but you went off a bit at the end...

8 spins will pay, on average, whatever value it needs to pay (i.e if the feature is every 250 spins with 20% RTP associated with it it will pay an average of 50x.

12 spins might pay and average of 100x, which is why you have a 50% chance of winning the gamble or losing (assuming it is a 50% chance but for the sake of argument we will assume it is).

So if you take the 8 spins you'll get on average 50x and if you gamble to 12 spins you'll get 100x if you win and 0x if you don't. So the average win from the gamble to 12x is still 50x.

Make sense?

Or in other words, doing a 50/50 gamble to on average double your money. Does surprise me how this is not being grasped. You can have your conspiracy theories but based on the evidence at hand this is exactly how the slot operates. I have not span nearly as many feature buys as others but I’d honestly say I’m well ahead of the 50/50 gamble to 12 spins and not a million miles of 60/40 for subsequent gambles.

Back on topic, I’d say a big thing about feature buys, and certainly something I get affected by, is that you’re likely to be drawn to them when you have a losing boring session. I don’t often pile into them from the off but if I’ve just spent 2 bonus-less hours doing my nuts, I’ll get drawn to them for some sort of entertainment. That entertainment comes at a heavy price when you are likely to already be in a bit of a hole.

It’s almost worse if you manage to get yourself out of the hole with this method as you’ll be drawn back far more readily. This is really amplified with the option to gamble.

In an earlier comment you mentioned you felt, maybe, these were worse than £50 spins. Not maybe about it, I suspect most would not imagine doing spins at that level based on how often a spin loses. Buying features more often that not gives you something back, maybe not monetary but certainly adrenaline boosting.

 

[trancemonkey]

So are you saying no feature is predetermined on any game?

No feature is predetermined in the way you think it is no. At the point the feature is won (i.e the moment you trigger it, or the point you collect it on games where there are choices or gambles then SOME manufacturers send all the information for that set of Free Spins in one chunk but all of those free spins were worked out at the point you won them and not before... Others hit the RNG for each and every spin. But is the Free Spins outcome known before you hit it, no not at all.

Even Jammin Jars, which we know does use predetermined sequences still doesn't decide which one to us until you actually win the free spins.

What you are suggesting is not only illegal but also utterly pointless.

 

[EkJR]

TM I am following what your saying. I remain unconvinced though. The only point I have agreed with BTG is on the first wheel being 50/50. I still do not believe for a second that the second wheel is 60/40. I will record and test my feature gambles on fun mode this weekend and do the maths behind it. "Best strategy is to gamble to 24 spins" is another questionable statement from BTG. 24 spins can be completely awful just the same and you may have lost 20-30 or more feature gambles to get there with no prospect of getting back 2000X or whatever you need to break even. For me it's a lot more complex than is being made out.

 

[trancemonkey]

TM I am following what your saying. I remain unconvinced though. The only point I have agreed with BTG is on the first wheel being 50/50. I still do not believe for a second that the second wheel is 60/40. I will record and test my feature gambles on fun mode this weekend and do the maths behind it. "Best strategy is to gamble to 24 spins" is another questionable statement from BTG. 24 spins can be completely awful just the same and you may have lost 20-30 or more feature gambles to get there with no prospect of getting back 2000X or whatever you need to break even. For me it's a lot more complex than is being made out.

Nope it really isn't - the only thing I doubt is the fact the gambles are 50% and 60%. But everything else will be exactly as stated.

 

[ladyhawke]

Gambling addiction is for the most part not a psychological disorder although many people with disorders are gambling. It takes one moment of weakness to lose your life savings buying features.

Gambling offers you an attractive chance to win $20,000 on a $1 spin. Its enticing to people, giving them the essence of possibly financial freedom.

This is why entire countries ban casinos... This is also why responsible gambling exists. This is why credit card companies restrict depositing in casinos ...

...thinking that people shouldn't just gamble if they cant be in control is not reality. It sounds like a catchy sound byte but that's all it is.

A very well-written argument, and so very true. Gambling is about the only vice that can totally ruin a person's financial and mental well being in days, if not hours, chasing after that elusive 'genie in a bottle'.

No other vice/leisure pursuit/pastime can cause such destruction in such a short time frame. Gambling without any restraints has become an epidemic, with disastrous consequences, because many of us simply don't know when to push that 'STOP!" button. This is often not because of any psychological disorder, but because of an inbuilt human weakness when faced with the possibility of 'easy money' which initially, appears to come at no cost.

The more sophisticated the game, the more obsessed we become, waiting for that once-in-a lifetime hit. Even though we are aware that for most of us, it 'aint ever going to happen. But it doesn't stop us trying, and now this 'Feature buy' facility lures many of us into thinking it could be a shortcut to achieving that impossible dream. Many can walk away at this point. Many more cannot.

The more I know of human nature, the more I am becoming convinced we are hardwired, deep inside our psyche, to embrace risk, and now slots with all these new, enhanced features appears to present all the thrills associated with a high-risk activity without the actual risk of personal injury.

And that is both the supreme irony, and the supreme tragedy.

 

[Scott1baird]

It was acorn pixies. You could buy the bonus on that well before BGT started. Info thanks to trancemonkey

 

[Scott1baird]

To be honest it doesn't matter if it predetermined or not the question is would you rather wait 100 spins for a possible bonus or just buy it, chance are your going to gamble at least once either way, are you willing to risk your 8 or 12 spins for a zero bonus, we have all seen that even 24 spins can be crap paying after all its a gamble.

 

[snorky510238]

No feature is predetermined in the way you think it is no. At the point the feature is won (i.e the moment you trigger it, or the point you collect it on games where there are choices or gambles then SOME manufacturers send all the information for that set of Free Spins in one chunk but all of those free spins were worked out at the point you won them and not before... Others hit the RNG for each and every spin. But is the Free Spins outcome known before you hit it, no not at all.

Even Jammin Jars, which we know does use predetermined sequences still doesn't decide which one to us until you actually win the free spins.

What you are suggesting is not only illegal but also utterly pointless.

So there is no difference really if there are x predetermined results sitting there when I trigger a feature or whether the info is sent at the point I trigger the feature I still get the said amount. How it displays graphically is immaterial.

 

[trancemonkey]

So there is no difference really if there are x predetermined results sitting there when I trigger a feature or whether the info is sent at the point I trigger the feature I still get the said amount. How it displays graphically is immaterial.

No how it displays it graphically is not immaterial... You seem to still have this mistaken idea that the game says "pay 51x" and then just does it. That is not at all how it happens in 99% of games.

In the case of games which send it all in one chunk, each spin is still determined independently and the outcome of all spins is sent to the client which then shows every spin the server did. The game client is showing you the result of the RNG decision for that spin just like it would if the information was requested for each spin.

You really need to get this notion that slot games just say "pay 106x" and then somehow just get there via some series of preset spins.

We do know that games like Jammin Jars pick a sequence but I can all but guarantee you most slots don't do this...

 

[snorky510238]

A very well-written argument, and so very true. Gambling is about the only vice that can totally ruin a person's financial and mental well being in days, if not hours, chasing after that elusive 'genie in a bottle'.

No other vice/leisure pursuit/pastime can cause such destruction in such a short time frame. Gambling without any restraints has become an epidemic, with disastrous consequences, because many of us simply don't know when to push that 'STOP!" button. This is often not because of any psychological disorder, but because of an inbuilt human weakness when faced with the possibility of 'easy money' which initially, appears to come at no cost.

The more sophisticated the game, the more obsessed we become, waiting for that once-in-a lifetime hit. Even though we are aware that for most of us, it 'aint ever going to happen. But it doesn't stop us trying, and now this 'Feature buy' facility lures many of us into thinking it could be a shortcut to achieving that impossible dream. Many can walk away at this point. Many more cannot.

The more I know of human nature, the more I am becoming convinced we are hardwired, deep inside our psyche, to embrace risk, and now slots with all these new, enhanced features appears to present all the thrills associated with a high-risk activity without the actual risk of personal injury.

And that is both the supreme irony, and the supreme tragedy.

Very good points made. Great post

 

[SlotGrinder]

You're almost right but you went off a bit at the end...

8 spins will pay, on average, whatever value it needs to pay (i.e if the feature is every 250 spins with 20% RTP associated with it it will pay an average of 50x.

12 spins might pay and average of 100x, which is why you have a 50% chance of winning the gamble or losing (assuming it is a 50% chance but for the sake of argument we will assume it is).

So if you take the 8 spins you'll get on average 50x and if you gamble to 12 spins you'll get 100x if you win and 0x if you don't. So the average win from the gamble to 12x is still 50x.

Make sense?

Because the average pay from the first gamble is still the feature average anything after that just means you are getting a higher return but the average from the feature REGARDLESS of what you do is still 50x

How is that different to what I said ? I'm talking about buying the bonus . So the 8 spins should pay rtp x bonus buy cost (on average ofc) . And then 12 spins should pay twice that on avg because there's 50% chance you get zero . And 16 spins should pay 10/3 on avg because there's 30% chance you reach the 16 spins and 70% chance you get zero .. etc

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Great posts by lockinlove and Ladyhawke there - nice to see some folks still have some understanding and compassion for others, and get that gambling absolutely needs to be tightly regulated and controlled.

 

[theapple]

Nope it really isn't - the only thing I doubt is the fact the gambles are 50% and 60%. But everything else will be exactly as stated.

you are probably going to say its a witch hunt but i really dont take seriously stuff that gambling companies tell us, without actually giving us a proof. If gambles really were that %, what hasnt BTG included them in help files? All we have is btg rep saying so in a forum a few of us read. Remember its not like btg hasnt done shady stuff before.

Speaking of 50% and stuff, i remember you said gambles are 50-50 (as in gambles where you gamble your winnings after the spin/feature), but i know for sure endorphina ones arent because sometimes its actually 0% or 25% to win the gamble. Ive had situations where i got, idk 3 and the lowest card of 4 offered was 5 or so.

Unless its just display error, and pretty damn lazy programming at that, its not 50-50. Apparently its a new excuse companies like to use now - sorry its not rigged, we are just lazy" and that ends the "rigged" discussions so i guess we will attribute it to lazy programming too.

 

[SlotGrinder]

The one thing I think is pretty crazy is the way slot providers are allowed to release slots that give very little info to the player
Especially slots that have some sort of progressive component like Wild Swarm . Is there any info about how often the swarm is activated ? Does it say anything about changing bet size and how this affects the game ? What about the rtp before the hive is activated compared to afterwards ? Idk if all this stuff is written anywhere but it seems like players are used to just pressing the spin button and seeing what happens
Maybe it's also the fault of the players for not reading the rules thoroughly but I think there needs to be a lot more transparency about the mechanics of games and the payouts

 

[trancemonkey]

you are probably going to say its a witch hunt but i really dont take seriously stuff that gambling companies tell us, without actually giving us a proof. If gambles really were that %, what hasnt BTG included them in help files? All we have is btg rep saying so in a forum a few of us read. Remember its not like btg hasnt done shady stuff before.

Speaking of 50% and stuff, i remember you said gambles are 50-50 (as in gambles where you gamble your winnings after the spin/feature), but i know for sure endorphina ones arent because sometimes its actually 0% or 25% to win the gamble. Ive had situations where i got, idk 3 and the lowest card of 4 offered was 5 or so.

Unless its just display error, and pretty damn lazy programming at that, its not 50-50. Apparently its a new excuse companies like to use now - sorry its not rigged, we are just lazy" and that ends the "rigged" discussions so i guess we will attribute it to lazy programming too.

No I haven't said all gambles are 50/50. I have said all gambles need to run at 100% RTP. Gambles can take many forms ....