Time To Ban The Feature Buy!

[trancemonkey]

We really need this tested out over a long period of time to prove this or otherwise.

You need what tested? Whether the odds are what they appear to be or whether the RNG makes one call per gamble?

 

[snorky510238]

I have seen plenty of people on the run from hell when gambling the feature but not one single video of someone winning every gamble that tells me more than enough.

 

[EkJR]

You need what tested? Whether the odds are what they appear to be or whether the RNG makes one call per gamble?

The wheel odds. BTG have stated categorically that the odds quoted are right, this has been disputed all over the place.

 

[trancemonkey]

The wheel odds. BTG have stated categorically that the odds quoted are right, this has been disputed all over the place.

I have a theory about this... I'm working on it. I will report back on any findings... But it might take a while

 

[EkJR]

I have a theory about this... I'm working on it. I will report back on any findings... But it might take a while

This is from BTG when I argued the point elsewhere with them.

"There is no dispute in the math it's 60/40 in the players favour on each single spin after the initial spin from 8. What you need to remember is the odds roll. From the first spin to get to 24 is a 1 in 10 chance. However, if you get enough scatters to start at 20 then the single gamble is 60/40 in your favour, these are the hard stats for getting 24 spins:

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 1"

 

[trancemonkey]

This is from BTG when I argued the point elsewhere with them.

"There is no dispute in the math it's 60/40 in the players favour on each single spin after the initial spin from 8. What you need to remember is the odds roll. From the first spin to get to 24 is a 1 in 10 chance. However, if you get enough scatters to start at 20 then the single gamble is 60/40 in your favour, these are the hard stats for getting 24 spins:

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 1"

I didn't think that was the issue .. I thought the issue is that players don't believe it's 50/50 or 60/40

 

[EkJR]

I didn't think that was the issue .. I thought the issue is that players don't believe it's 50/50 or 60/40

Yes it's the same thing really. I asked them about the wheel odds and that's what they have said. Players in the main don't not believe these are the true odds. I think the 8 to 12 is a true gamble, the gamble from 12 to 16 is not for me anywhere near 60/40

 

[sledge13]

To be able to lose when buying a feature not once but yes TWICE and most of the time is just sickness on BTG, they literally laughing at us for playing their slots.

 

[dunover]

This is from BTG when I argued the point elsewhere with them.

"There is no dispute in the math it's 60/40 in the players favour on each single spin after the initial spin from 8. What you need to remember is the odds roll. From the first spin to get to 24 is a 1 in 10 chance. However, if you get enough scatters to start at 20 then the single gamble is 60/40 in your favour, these are the hard stats for getting 24 spins:

0.5 x 0.6 x 0.6 x 0.6 = 0.108 or 1 in 1"

Yes, we've been through that and BTG confirmed it, that it's just over a 1/9 chance of 24 spins. Indeed from testing the game I'd say that's pretty much spot-on.
The first 50-50 gamble though is totally misleading IMO and cannot be a true 50-50 for two reasons:

Firstly, it needs to account for the frequency of 4-scatter triggers on the purchase spin which start you on 12 anyway.
Secondly, achieving 12+ spins opens up the 60-40 gambles and from 12 spins onwards you are essentially procuring spins with a far higher average return given the effect of the increasing multiplier up to that point.

So I agree that the terminal 24 spins is OK but in between a 3-scatter trigger and getting there the graphics aren't a stage-by-stage accurate representation, and I haven't heard of anybody testing the game in demo buying the feature and reporting around 50-50 on the 8-12 gamble over tens of tries.

 

[nikantw]

So I agree that the terminal 24 spins is OK but in between a 3-scatter trigger and getting there the graphics aren't a stage-by-stage accurate representation, and I haven't heard of anybody testing the game in demo buying the feature and reporting around 50-50 on the 8-12 gamble over tens of tries.

Fine, I will try to do it this weekend and let you know.

 

[lockinlove]

It's not about attractiveness and temptation isn't an excuse. If you can't control yourself you shouldn't play, period. If you need help there are ways to block yourself from playing. Don't put the responsibility for excessive behaviour on slot designers. That's like putting the responsibility of your eating habits on Burger King.

It's very bad to ask others to take the responsibility for your actions and this is true outside of the gambling world as well.

Now do I like a bonus buy feature? No I don't. I think it ruins the slots which is why I don't play them. I know one thing though: if the bonus buys aren't popular they will stop making them. That's the best kind of regulation.

Of course its about the attractiveness. You tried to compare it to roulette. Its not. Its the very essence of attractiveness to have the chance to hit a monster.

Now you are trying to compare $2000 bonus buys to burger king. Again, not the same thing.

You also try to clump everyone as the same. Hey be strong enough, dont gamble. Get a grip. thats nothing but an annoying sound byte. Almost the Same thing as telling someone with schizophrenia to suck it up.

I work in a hospital alot of gamblers have mental illnesses the most common being bi polar. Excitement is what they chase for that up. And when they crash, they crash hard.

Sure it may not be the slot designers fault completely because it is their job to entice attractive games to entice deposits into casinos.

I think ive read a post from every single member that they have had a moment of weakness and lost control. Its easy to do when all you have to do is push a button.

Do you blame the slot provider? Meh. So my point stands. I dont like it and if others dont they should report it the gaming commission and let them decide.

 

[Scott1baird]

As everyone knows the instant to click spin or buy that the result is pre determined so if you get 8 spins the final result would be the same as if you gambled to 24 spins. The only real factor is whether or not you are willing to risk the 8 or 12 spin predermined result against a zero win.

 

[Balthazar]

Now you are trying to compare $2000 bonus buys to burger king. Again, not the same thing.

The behaviour to ask others to adapt to your issues is the exact same.

"I'm a gambler and when I see a bonus buy feature, I buy them until I'm broke. I still play slots though. Please remove the bonus buy".

"I'm an alcoholic and when I see a bottle a rum, I have to drink it. I still go to the bar though, please stop selling liquor".

"I have an eating disorder and I'm 350 lbs. When I see cheeseburgers I have to eat them until I'm sick. I like to come to Burger King though, please stop selling cheeseburgers"

First guy shouldn't gamble, second guy shouldn't go in bars and third guy shouldn't go to a fast food restaurant. Don't try to ruin it for others who might enjoy it because you have issues.

Almost the Same thing as telling someone with schizophrenia to suck it up.

Nope. Not even one bit.

 

[Reelsoffun]

As everyone knows the instant to click spin or buy that the result is pre determined so if you get 8 spins the final result would be the same as if you gambled to 24 spins. The only real factor is whether or not you are willing to risk the 8 or 12 spin predermined result against a zero win.

Here we go again, its not predetermined at that point, BTG has said that many times and I believe them as it makes sense, how would it be compliant if that was the case.

So your saying the other week when I gambled to 20 and 24 spins and won over £400 it was gonna still pay that on 8 Really? Have you ever collected 8 on extra chilli its brutal 99% of the time, I believe each spin is random, it could be weighted via reel strips of course for each multi or each band of multi, but IMO each spin is random as BTG have stated more than once.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Is it dangerous? Yes
Is it useful? Also yes!

The option to bet $10 to buy a feature instead of betting $10 on a spin on any other slot is a very very good thing.

I agree with you that the option to gamble the feature you bought (and lose it all) in Extra Chilly is too much. But the ban is wrong. The ban is a bad thing.
A forced max bet limit < 2% of the balance, combined with SOW and the option to buy features at a much smaller cost (normal min bet down to $0.01) is exactly what this needs.

Forced max bet limit < 2% of the balance and min bet 0.01 is what we should be asking IMHO.

I dont agree with the 2% bit as all that would do is force people to put more on so that they can do bigger bets, totally the opposite of RG.

The amount of times i have deposited £50 and played 20p/40p bets down to last £10 or so and done the last spins at much higher like £1 - £4 and hit and got all my deposit back and some! that would really hurt if there was always a rule like that in place, that would be hell like having a max bet while on a bonus, you would actually probably be giving the casino an advantage!


While i understand that these bets can be dangerous, I have several times played the base for so long that I lost way more than the feature buy cost before a feature came anyway so not always much difference.

On the subject of them being dangerous, if a player finds them too much of a temptation, then maybe they shouldn't be gambling at all.

I have also several times done a deposit on the base to then reload, do a few buys, gamble to 20 or 24 and made it all back, playing the base would have been far harder and more time consuming, so there is always 2 sides.

I agree that there should be a max feature buy of maybe £50 keeping in line with the BIG bets type of stakes. £1000/£2000 feature buys are madness!

 

[paul7388]

Everyone has their own take on why you should gamble the spins.

Personally i have played it a good bit lately. Sometimes gambling to 24 spins. But found they never even paid great.

Where as i have had quite a few decent hits as well. All off the 8 spins. Find if it is going to pay it really does not matter amount of spins you collect.

The 8 spins can same as Bonanza give you several low wins that build up your multiplier then drop in a great win few spins later. Or as seems to happen a lot it gives you a retrigger on first spin or two.

But all the biggest wins i have had have all been from 8 spins.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Everyone has their own take on why you should gamble the spins.

Personally i have played it a good bit lately. Sometimes gambling to 24 spins. But found they never even paid great.

Where as i have had quite a few decent hits as well. All off the 8 spins. Find if it is going to pay it really does not matter amount of spins you collect.

The 8 spins can same as Bonanza give you several low wins that build up your multiplier then drop in a great win few spins later. Or as seems to happen a lot it gives you a retrigger on first spin or two.

But all the biggest wins i have had have all been from 8 spins.

I think that's just lucky then? I have just looked at all my 8 spins log and never had one pay more than 50x except ones that were a gamble that dropped me to 8 spins.

24 spins spins however have hit 1000x quite a few.

I might be bias tho as extra chilli has been kind to me on all the casinos that I remember, Videoslots is my worst RTP currently out of all of them but even that's not terrible so mixing feature buy with normal base game playing works for me.

 

[sledge13]

The behaviour to ask others to adapt to your issues is the exact same.

"I'm a gambler and when I see a bonus buy feature, I buy them until I'm broke. I still play slots though. Please remove the bonus buy".

"I'm an alcoholic and when I see a bottle a rum, I have to drink it. I still go to the bar though, please stop selling liquor".

"I have an eating disorder and I'm 350 lbs. When I see cheeseburgers I have to eat them until I'm sick. I like to come to Burger King though, please stop selling cheeseburgers"

First guy shouldn't gamble, second guy shouldn't go in bars and third guy shouldn't go to a fast food restaurant. Don't try to ruin it for others who might enjoy it because you have issues.

Ermmm no, this is the same as if you went into Burger King and they offered you a £5 chance gamble to win 10 burgers, 5 large fries and a blow job but you keep losing, try and think a bit more out of the box Mr Balth.

 

[Scott1baird]

Here we go again, its not predetermined at that point, BTG has said that many times and I believe them as it makes sense, how would it be compliant if that was the case.

So your saying the other week when I gambled to 20 and 24 spins and won over £400 it was gonna still pay that on 8 Really? Have you ever collected 8 on extra chilli its brutal 99% of the time, I believe each spin is random, it could be weighted via reel strips of course for each multi or each band of multi, but IMO each spin is random as BTG have stated more than once.

Yes that's what I am saying. The moment you press spin or buy the game sends to the database it gets a pre determined response aka RND . sends it back. Now you have what has been sent to you. Say 50x win whether or not you have 8 spins or 24 spins the result will be the same. Only difference is the gamble

 

[Scott1baird]

Yes that's what I am saying. The moment you press spin or buy the game sends to the database it gets a pre determined response aka RND . sends it back. Now you have what has been sent to you. Say 50x win whether or not you have 8 spins or 24 spins the result will be the same. Only difference is the gamble

And yes I have had many 400x wins on 8 spins.

 

[paul7388]

I think that's just lucky then? I have just looked at all my 8 spins log and never had one pay more than 50x except ones that were a gamble that dropped me to 8 spins.

24 spins spins however have hit 1000x quite a few.

I might be bias tho as extra chilli has been kind to me on all the casinos that I remember, Videoslots is my worst RTP currently out of all of them but even that's not terrible so mixing feature buy with normal base game playing works for me.

View attachment 96720

Same way as i would just think you were unlucky.

I used to collect 8 and they paid little at first.

So like many others i started gambling. Realized that even 24 was rubbish most of times.

Then got fed up taking ages to get 3 bonuses for example to lose them all and get nothing.

So started just collecting all the time and to me they pay same as Bonanza. Some next to nothing others 100x 250x 500x wins. As i said if its going to be a good bonus it builds multiplier quick then drops a good win or gives you retriggers to boost spins.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Players are to blame for this really because more and more value is being put on high variance and potential . But guess what you can't have high variance and huge potential without the potential for huge sustained losses . The maths won't add up otherwise . The reason there is the gamble feature on extra chilli for example is because otherwise the game would not be able to pay huge without having a ton of extremely bad features . For every bonus that pays 10x your buyin you are going to need 20 that only give you half your buyin back (and slight more unless the rtp is 100%) . So to get round this problem they introduce the gamble feature as a way of paying a lot of "zero" bonuses and that enables them to have some bonuses which pay huge

If low variance games were earning most of the market share in casinos then that is the sort of games slot providers would be developing

 

[SlotGrinder]

If you dont like the buy in feature don't play that slot simples, BGT wasn't the first either for that, there is another game out way before BGT that you can buy the feature on forget the name but its an elf based game with dropping wilds.

Yes and the bonus paid most of your stake back or not much more i.e it was quite low variance . Think it cost 100x to buy the bonus and you'd get between 60% -150% back pretty much always .. ironically for this reason it didn't generate much interest
Like I said you can't have your cake and eat it . You want bonuses that potentially pay 1000s+ x then there has to be another side of the coin i.e bough bonuses that pay very very little . the gamble feature on chilli is just a way of giving a 0x bonus essentially , thu enabling them to sometimes pay out huge bonuses whilst keeping the overall rtp at 96%

 

[SlotGrinder]

So no RNG determines the first gamble of the slot, I.e 8 to 12? How is that determined? Or indeed the second gamble etc. It's all very confusing, need Einstein to work it all out for us

You can get an individual rng result for every stage of the process. Theres nothing complicated about it.

 

[mack341]

Players are to blame for this really because more and more value is being put on high variance and potential . But guess what you can't have high variance and huge potential without the potential for huge sustained losses . The maths won't add up otherwise . The reason there is the gamble feature on extra chilli for example is because otherwise the game would not be able to pay huge without having a ton of extremely bad features . For every bonus that pays 10x your buyin you are going to need 20 that only give you half your buyin back (and slight more unless the rtp is 100%) . So to get round this problem they introduce the gamble feature as a way of paying a lot of "zero" bonuses and that enables them to have some bonuses which pay huge

If low variance games were earning most of the market share in casinos then that is the sort of games slot providers would be developing

The thing is when they developed and launched the game how could they know whether anyone or how many would opt to gamble those 8 spins, so how could they work out the rtp distribution across the different spin amounts? If no one ever gambled and just took the 8 spins the big wins would have to be awarded in the 8 spins

Maybe the average number of spins required to trigger a bonus, 230, also applies to the gamble wheel. So if a person successfully gambles to 24 [3x the amount of spins in a normal bonus] that counts as if the game has given out 3 bonuses bearing in mind on average the game will only give out 1 bonus per 230 spins. To keep the maths on track 460 extra spins without a bonus have now got be spun by somebody else.

I think the 1500x+ wins are so rare they can come in any of the spin amounts 8,12,24 etc.. the 400 to 1500 are probably more common in the 16-24 spin range, I had a 3600x win in 8 spins on 20p from landing about 15 or so purple chillis, so if you are after one of the big very rare wins you might as well keep taking the 8 spins rather than losing them half the time.