Time To Ban The Feature Buy!

[SlotGrinder]

idk how the maths works exactly but I guess the avg rtp of taking 8 spins is 96% and the rtp of 12 spins is 192% but ofc you lose half the time and get zero so that works out as 96% per bonus
16 spins would be reached 50% x 60% = 30% of the time so the avg rtp of that bonus should be 333% x 0.96 = 320%
After that you get compensated with some spins if you lose the gamble so I cba to try and work that out

IF the avg rtp of taking the 8 spins is not 96% then it means you have to gamble to get the stated rtp which would be unfair

 

[goatwack]

I'm totally getting these figures, keep 'em coming

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[SlotGrinder]

Im just guessing ofc . I really think BTG should have to publish the expected rtp of each number of spins so you do at least know what you are gambling for..

 

[TheAddict]

Can imagine a few n00bs buying the bonus, having some fun while reguarely collecting 8 or 12 spins alot with the odd rare gamble going for 16 or even 20, and after a few weeks of very few spectacular results deciding to actualy look at the information page, only to find they werent investing enough money to meet the apparant "optimal strategy" which is explained as to always gamble the free spins.
Then proceeding to do an absolute ass load more trying to get a big win still buying features but this time gambling to 24 all the time.

 

[zreb]

Players are to blame for this really because more and more value is being put on high variance and potential . But guess what you can't have high variance and huge potential without the potential for huge sustained losses . The maths won't add up otherwise . The reason there is the gamble feature on extra chilli for example is because otherwise the game would not be able to pay huge without having a ton of extremely bad features . For every bonus that pays 10x your buyin you are going to need 20 that only give you half your buyin back (and slight more unless the rtp is 100%) . So to get round this problem they introduce the gamble feature as a way of paying a lot of "zero" bonuses and that enables them to have some bonuses which pay huge

If low variance games were earning most of the market share in casinos then that is the sort of games slot providers would be developing

This is probably a part of the reason a game like immortal romance is/was so popular - people are enticed by the theoretical maximum wins with 4/5 wild reels. But the odds of those are so low that it saves enough of the rtp for the rest of the game to play as medium variance - keeping the dream (or the illusion) of the monster win alive without smashing the player like a true high variance slot can.

Of course, the high variance slots can be popular because they actually DO spit out those 1000-3000x wins once every 20,000 spins or so. But in exchange, they really crush you most of the other times.

 

[lockinlove]

The behaviour to ask others to adapt to your issues is the exact same.

"I'm a gambler and when I see a bonus buy feature, I buy them until I'm broke. I still play slots though. Please remove the bonus buy".

"I'm an alcoholic and when I see a bottle a rum, I have to drink it. I still go to the bar though, please stop selling liquor".

"I have an eating disorder and I'm 350 lbs. When I see cheeseburgers I have to eat them until I'm sick. I like to come to Burger King though, please stop selling cheeseburgers"

First guy shouldn't gamble, second guy shouldn't go in bars and third guy shouldn't go to a fast food restaurant. Don't try to ruin it for others who might enjoy it because you have issues.



Nope. Not even one bit.

Except for eating disorders and gambling are not the same. When someone orders a hamburger they arent promised a genie might pop out and give the something more spectacular. Eating disorders are a psycological disorder. Gambling addiction is for the most part not a psychological disorder although many people with disorders are gambling. It takes one moment of weakness to lose your life savings buying features. It doesnt take a moment of weakness to die of burger consumption. Chasing losses is dangerous and can and has happened to everyone here. Chasing down a hamburger not as much.

Gambling offers you an attractive chance to win $20,000 on a $1 spin. Its enticing to people, giving them the essence of possibly financial freedom. Alcohol promises nothing. They are not all in the same boat.

A better example is gun laws in Canada. We arent allowed to walk around with guns because of lunatics. So by your line of thinking everyone should be able to carry grenade launchers because not everyone are lunatics. Governments and commission exist for a reason. Its to help stop people being self destructive because humans are built with flaws and not robots. Ive seen some of the most in control streamers lose control and blow $20,000 on feature buys and then sit there like wtf just happened.


This is why entire countries ban casinos and they dont ban hamburgers. This is also why responsible gambling exists. This is why credit card companies restrict depositing in casinos but wont block people buying a hamburger.

And even alcohol consumption has guidelines. You cant drink and drive, you cant drink in public. Why? Because its dangerous to yourself and others. So can gambling. So we should just lift drinking and driving laws because some people can be in control when drinking 2 beers but others cant? So they ruin it for others?

Sorry but your line of thinking that people shouldnt just gamble if they cant be in control is not reality. It sounds like a catchy sound byte but thats all it is.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes that's what I am saying. The moment you press spin or buy the game sends to the database it gets a pre determined response aka RND . sends it back. Now you have what has been sent to you. Say 50x win whether or not you have 8 spins or 24 spins the result will be the same. Only difference is the gamble

You can ignore FunnyMunny if you want but he's right and you're wrong. The game doesn't go to the server and get a value of 50x and pay it regardless... Every decision you make affects the final outcome. If you take 8 spins you MIGHT be very lucky and get 400x but if you somehow gambled to 24 spins you would be more much more likely to get that value or more. Why do people find it so hard to understand that nothing is predetermined...

 

[trancemonkey]

idk how the maths works exactly but I guess the avg rtp of taking 8 spins is 96% and the rtp of 12 spins is 192% but ofc you lose half the time and get zero so that works out as 96% per bonus
16 spins would be reached 50% x 60% = 30% of the time so the avg rtp of that bonus should be 333% x 0.96 = 320%
After that you get compensated with some spins if you lose the gamble so I cba to try and work that out

IF the avg rtp of taking the 8 spins is not 96% then it means you have to gamble to get the stated rtp which would be unfair

You're almost right but you went off a bit at the end...

8 spins will pay, on average, whatever value it needs to pay (i.e if the feature is every 250 spins with 20% RTP associated with it it will pay an average of 50x.

12 spins might pay and average of 100x, which is why you have a 50% chance of winning the gamble or losing (assuming it is a 50% chance but for the sake of argument we will assume it is).

So if you take the 8 spins you'll get on average 50x and if you gamble to 12 spins you'll get 100x if you win and 0x if you don't. So the average win from the gamble to 12x is still 50x.

Make sense?

Because the average pay from the first gamble is still the feature average anything after that just means you are getting a higher return but the average from the feature REGARDLESS of what you do is still 50x

 

[dionysus]

Why do people find it so hard to understand that nothing is predetermined...

Because confirmation bias.
People would sooner wait for someone else to say' youre right, its rigged...because....pixies and faeries' than listen to someone who actually has a clue

 

[snorky510238]

You can ignore FunnyMunny if you want but he's right and you're wrong. The game doesn't go to the server and get a value of 50x and pay it regardless... Every decision you make affects the final outcome. If you take 8 spins you MIGHT be very lucky and get 400x but if you somehow gambled to 24 spins you would be more much more likely to get that value or more. Why do people find it so hard to understand that nothing is predetermined...

So are you saying no feature is predetermined on any game?

 

[Siohmy]

You're almost right but you went off a bit at the end...

8 spins will pay, on average, whatever value it needs to pay (i.e if the feature is every 250 spins with 20% RTP associated with it it will pay an average of 50x.

12 spins might pay and average of 100x, which is why you have a 50% chance of winning the gamble or losing (assuming it is a 50% chance but for the sake of argument we will assume it is).

So if you take the 8 spins you'll get on average 50x and if you gamble to 12 spins you'll get 100x if you win and 0x if you don't. So the average win from the gamble to 12x is still 50x.

Make sense?

Or in other words, doing a 50/50 gamble to on average double your money. Does surprise me how this is not being grasped. You can have your conspiracy theories but based on the evidence at hand this is exactly how the slot operates. I have not span nearly as many feature buys as others but I’d honestly say I’m well ahead of the 50/50 gamble to 12 spins and not a million miles of 60/40 for subsequent gambles.

Back on topic, I’d say a big thing about feature buys, and certainly something I get affected by, is that you’re likely to be drawn to them when you have a losing boring session. I don’t often pile into them from the off but if I’ve just spent 2 bonus-less hours doing my nuts, I’ll get drawn to them for some sort of entertainment. That entertainment comes at a heavy price when you are likely to already be in a bit of a hole.

It’s almost worse if you manage to get yourself out of the hole with this method as you’ll be drawn back far more readily. This is really amplified with the option to gamble.

In an earlier comment you mentioned you felt, maybe, these were worse than £50 spins. Not maybe about it, I suspect most would not imagine doing spins at that level based on how often a spin loses. Buying features more often that not gives you something back, maybe not monetary but certainly adrenaline boosting.

 

[trancemonkey]

So are you saying no feature is predetermined on any game?

No feature is predetermined in the way you think it is no. At the point the feature is won (i.e the moment you trigger it, or the point you collect it on games where there are choices or gambles then SOME manufacturers send all the information for that set of Free Spins in one chunk but all of those free spins were worked out at the point you won them and not before... Others hit the RNG for each and every spin. But is the Free Spins outcome known before you hit it, no not at all.

Even Jammin Jars, which we know does use predetermined sequences still doesn't decide which one to us until you actually win the free spins.

What you are suggesting is not only illegal but also utterly pointless.

 

[EkJR]

TM I am following what your saying. I remain unconvinced though. The only point I have agreed with BTG is on the first wheel being 50/50. I still do not believe for a second that the second wheel is 60/40. I will record and test my feature gambles on fun mode this weekend and do the maths behind it. "Best strategy is to gamble to 24 spins" is another questionable statement from BTG. 24 spins can be completely awful just the same and you may have lost 20-30 or more feature gambles to get there with no prospect of getting back 2000X or whatever you need to break even. For me it's a lot more complex than is being made out.

 

[trancemonkey]

TM I am following what your saying. I remain unconvinced though. The only point I have agreed with BTG is on the first wheel being 50/50. I still do not believe for a second that the second wheel is 60/40. I will record and test my feature gambles on fun mode this weekend and do the maths behind it. "Best strategy is to gamble to 24 spins" is another questionable statement from BTG. 24 spins can be completely awful just the same and you may have lost 20-30 or more feature gambles to get there with no prospect of getting back 2000X or whatever you need to break even. For me it's a lot more complex than is being made out.

Nope it really isn't - the only thing I doubt is the fact the gambles are 50% and 60%. But everything else will be exactly as stated.

 

[ladyhawke]

Gambling addiction is for the most part not a psychological disorder although many people with disorders are gambling. It takes one moment of weakness to lose your life savings buying features.

Gambling offers you an attractive chance to win $20,000 on a $1 spin. Its enticing to people, giving them the essence of possibly financial freedom.

This is why entire countries ban casinos... This is also why responsible gambling exists. This is why credit card companies restrict depositing in casinos ...

...thinking that people shouldn't just gamble if they cant be in control is not reality. It sounds like a catchy sound byte but that's all it is.

A very well-written argument, and so very true. Gambling is about the only vice that can totally ruin a person's financial and mental well being in days, if not hours, chasing after that elusive 'genie in a bottle'.

No other vice/leisure pursuit/pastime can cause such destruction in such a short time frame. Gambling without any restraints has become an epidemic, with disastrous consequences, because many of us simply don't know when to push that 'STOP!" button. This is often not because of any psychological disorder, but because of an inbuilt human weakness when faced with the possibility of 'easy money' which initially, appears to come at no cost.

The more sophisticated the game, the more obsessed we become, waiting for that once-in-a lifetime hit. Even though we are aware that for most of us, it 'aint ever going to happen. But it doesn't stop us trying, and now this 'Feature buy' facility lures many of us into thinking it could be a shortcut to achieving that impossible dream. Many can walk away at this point. Many more cannot.

The more I know of human nature, the more I am becoming convinced we are hardwired, deep inside our psyche, to embrace risk, and now slots with all these new, enhanced features appears to present all the thrills associated with a high-risk activity without the actual risk of personal injury.

And that is both the supreme irony, and the supreme tragedy.

 

[Scott1baird]

It was acorn pixies. You could buy the bonus on that well before BGT started. Info thanks to trancemonkey

 

[Scott1baird]

To be honest it doesn't matter if it predetermined or not the question is would you rather wait 100 spins for a possible bonus or just buy it, chance are your going to gamble at least once either way, are you willing to risk your 8 or 12 spins for a zero bonus, we have all seen that even 24 spins can be crap paying after all its a gamble.

 

[snorky510238]

No feature is predetermined in the way you think it is no. At the point the feature is won (i.e the moment you trigger it, or the point you collect it on games where there are choices or gambles then SOME manufacturers send all the information for that set of Free Spins in one chunk but all of those free spins were worked out at the point you won them and not before... Others hit the RNG for each and every spin. But is the Free Spins outcome known before you hit it, no not at all.

Even Jammin Jars, which we know does use predetermined sequences still doesn't decide which one to us until you actually win the free spins.

What you are suggesting is not only illegal but also utterly pointless.

So there is no difference really if there are x predetermined results sitting there when I trigger a feature or whether the info is sent at the point I trigger the feature I still get the said amount. How it displays graphically is immaterial.

 

[trancemonkey]

So there is no difference really if there are x predetermined results sitting there when I trigger a feature or whether the info is sent at the point I trigger the feature I still get the said amount. How it displays graphically is immaterial.

No how it displays it graphically is not immaterial... You seem to still have this mistaken idea that the game says "pay 51x" and then just does it. That is not at all how it happens in 99% of games.

In the case of games which send it all in one chunk, each spin is still determined independently and the outcome of all spins is sent to the client which then shows every spin the server did. The game client is showing you the result of the RNG decision for that spin just like it would if the information was requested for each spin.

You really need to get this notion that slot games just say "pay 106x" and then somehow just get there via some series of preset spins.

We do know that games like Jammin Jars pick a sequence but I can all but guarantee you most slots don't do this...

 

[snorky510238]

A very well-written argument, and so very true. Gambling is about the only vice that can totally ruin a person's financial and mental well being in days, if not hours, chasing after that elusive 'genie in a bottle'.

No other vice/leisure pursuit/pastime can cause such destruction in such a short time frame. Gambling without any restraints has become an epidemic, with disastrous consequences, because many of us simply don't know when to push that 'STOP!" button. This is often not because of any psychological disorder, but because of an inbuilt human weakness when faced with the possibility of 'easy money' which initially, appears to come at no cost.

The more sophisticated the game, the more obsessed we become, waiting for that once-in-a lifetime hit. Even though we are aware that for most of us, it 'aint ever going to happen. But it doesn't stop us trying, and now this 'Feature buy' facility lures many of us into thinking it could be a shortcut to achieving that impossible dream. Many can walk away at this point. Many more cannot.

The more I know of human nature, the more I am becoming convinced we are hardwired, deep inside our psyche, to embrace risk, and now slots with all these new, enhanced features appears to present all the thrills associated with a high-risk activity without the actual risk of personal injury.

And that is both the supreme irony, and the supreme tragedy.

Very good points made. Great post

 

[SlotGrinder]

You're almost right but you went off a bit at the end...

8 spins will pay, on average, whatever value it needs to pay (i.e if the feature is every 250 spins with 20% RTP associated with it it will pay an average of 50x.

12 spins might pay and average of 100x, which is why you have a 50% chance of winning the gamble or losing (assuming it is a 50% chance but for the sake of argument we will assume it is).

So if you take the 8 spins you'll get on average 50x and if you gamble to 12 spins you'll get 100x if you win and 0x if you don't. So the average win from the gamble to 12x is still 50x.

Make sense?

Because the average pay from the first gamble is still the feature average anything after that just means you are getting a higher return but the average from the feature REGARDLESS of what you do is still 50x

How is that different to what I said ? I'm talking about buying the bonus . So the 8 spins should pay rtp x bonus buy cost (on average ofc) . And then 12 spins should pay twice that on avg because there's 50% chance you get zero . And 16 spins should pay 10/3 on avg because there's 30% chance you reach the 16 spins and 70% chance you get zero .. etc

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Great posts by lockinlove and Ladyhawke there - nice to see some folks still have some understanding and compassion for others, and get that gambling absolutely needs to be tightly regulated and controlled.

 

[theapple]

Nope it really isn't - the only thing I doubt is the fact the gambles are 50% and 60%. But everything else will be exactly as stated.

you are probably going to say its a witch hunt but i really dont take seriously stuff that gambling companies tell us, without actually giving us a proof. If gambles really were that %, what hasnt BTG included them in help files? All we have is btg rep saying so in a forum a few of us read. Remember its not like btg hasnt done shady stuff before.

Speaking of 50% and stuff, i remember you said gambles are 50-50 (as in gambles where you gamble your winnings after the spin/feature), but i know for sure endorphina ones arent because sometimes its actually 0% or 25% to win the gamble. Ive had situations where i got, idk 3 and the lowest card of 4 offered was 5 or so.

Unless its just display error, and pretty damn lazy programming at that, its not 50-50. Apparently its a new excuse companies like to use now - sorry its not rigged, we are just lazy" and that ends the "rigged" discussions so i guess we will attribute it to lazy programming too.

 

[SlotGrinder]

The one thing I think is pretty crazy is the way slot providers are allowed to release slots that give very little info to the player
Especially slots that have some sort of progressive component like Wild Swarm . Is there any info about how often the swarm is activated ? Does it say anything about changing bet size and how this affects the game ? What about the rtp before the hive is activated compared to afterwards ? Idk if all this stuff is written anywhere but it seems like players are used to just pressing the spin button and seeing what happens
Maybe it's also the fault of the players for not reading the rules thoroughly but I think there needs to be a lot more transparency about the mechanics of games and the payouts

 

[trancemonkey]

you are probably going to say its a witch hunt but i really dont take seriously stuff that gambling companies tell us, without actually giving us a proof. If gambles really were that %, what hasnt BTG included them in help files? All we have is btg rep saying so in a forum a few of us read. Remember its not like btg hasnt done shady stuff before.

Speaking of 50% and stuff, i remember you said gambles are 50-50 (as in gambles where you gamble your winnings after the spin/feature), but i know for sure endorphina ones arent because sometimes its actually 0% or 25% to win the gamble. Ive had situations where i got, idk 3 and the lowest card of 4 offered was 5 or so.

Unless its just display error, and pretty damn lazy programming at that, its not 50-50. Apparently its a new excuse companies like to use now - sorry its not rigged, we are just lazy" and that ends the "rigged" discussions so i guess we will attribute it to lazy programming too.

No I haven't said all gambles are 50/50. I have said all gambles need to run at 100% RTP. Gambles can take many forms ....