Time To Ban The Feature Buy!

[trancemonkey]

I found the following paragraph in the 'remote gambling and software technical standards' 2017:

"RTS requirement 3C
For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must include:
i. a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are determined and prizes allocated
ii. house edge (or margin)
iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage or
iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring."

It seems to me that the rtp information being measured as it is over a significant number of game plays [100,000+] isn't really that useful to the player other than to compare games, and most games seem to hover round the 96% figure in any case.

Some information matching iv above would be useful for encouraging responsible gambling; if exact figures gave away maths profiles then the 'greater than' and 'less than' symbols could be used < > but at least the customer would have a ball park idea of the win probabilities.

Also after watching dunovers recent vids about 'clone' games it seems to me that it's not too hard for game developers to work out and copy the maths of other developer's games, so the 'secrecy' reason given doesn't entirely hold water and at any rate games could be copyrighted protected just like music and books to prevent plagiarism.

Games are copied but unless they have acquired the maths from somewhere (illegally or through licencing) then they will have had to come up with the maths themselves. Therefore it is not a copy in anything other than mechanics.

Also you can't copyright the look and feel of a game or a fame desigsn sothat's a non-starter. You can even patent original game designs in Europe although you can in the US.

Also please explain to be how 3c(iv) has anything to do with responsible gambling... Being that responsible gambling is mainly bout making sure people don't spend more than they can afford.

 

[mcgameboy]

I don't like feature buys. Anytime I have tried them (and they have been very rare attempts), they have never gone well for me,
apart from one occasion when I managed to make a modest profit on Ooh Aah Dracula.

That said, I don't think feature buys should be banned outright. There has to be a better solution than that.
Given the amount of RG tools that are in place, surely the player can take the necessary pre-emptive steps to ensure they can never find themselves falling into the feature buy trap?

However.....

What SHOULD be banned are feature buys where the player is then immediately offered the "opportunity" (PFFFTTT!!!) to then gamble (and potentially lose) the feature they just bought.

To me, that is just plain wrong. If you buy a feature, you should be able to see that feature play out, no matter what.

It's bad enough that Extra Chilli offers such a thing, but if you don't manage a HOT+4 trigger, you actually have to negotiate not one,
but TWO ALL OR NOTHING gambles in order to reach the so-called "promised land" that is a 24 spins FS round.
A promised land that can actually deliver the kind of shitty result that an 8 spin feature usually delivers.

All of which makes me find BTG's claim that "the best strategy is to ALWAYS gamble the wheel" to be the most disgusting and blatant lie I have ever heard from a slot provider.

It's the best strategy alright.....for BTG and their coffers!

IF BTG had put a gamble feature where the first wheel was a gamble for 12 spins (if you won) or 4 spins (if you lost), I would actually be OK with that, because you at least would still get to see a feature play out. Even though the likelihood of it being a pretty crap feature would be fairly high. And possibly bordering on pointless.

But all or nothing? And possibly having to do it twice? No. I'm sorry, that is just too much.

There is a reason why I don't play Extra Chilli, White Rabbit and Book Of Gods. I want no part of feature buys, which I feel are massively -EV.

And no amount of screenies showing wins of 5000x and above on those games is going to make me change my mind.

 

[snorky510238]

For me it’s simple logic. The feature buys I have seen cost 100x stake. How many bonus rounds do you get on average that pay above 100x stake.

 

[zreb]

Games are copied but unless they have acquired the maths from somewhere (illegally or through licencing) then they will have had to come up with the maths themselves. Therefore it is not a copy in anything other than mechanics.

Also you can't copyright the look and feel of a game or a fame desigsn sothat's a non-starter. You can even patent original game designs in Europe although you can in the US.

Also please explain to be how 3c(iv) has anything to do with responsible gambling... Being that responsible gambling is mainly bout making sure people don't spend more than they can afford.

The problem is, the math can pretty easily be copied by any capable person unless the game mechanics are so hidden or unintuitive that a professional slot creator, mathematician, or programmer can't figure it out. If professionals with strong ability, understanding, time and incentive can't work out exactly how the game works, how is an average player supposed to know what's going on?

As a simple example, any slot that just involves a free spin bonus round with a multiplier could be completely figured out by mapping the reels. So now take a more complicated and less transparent feature, like IR randomly turning reels wild. You can't figure that out with direct math, but you can with trial, testing, and statistics come to a pretty close idea. A professional should be able to do this if they wanted. (Even if their accuracy on the vary rarest big payouts was imperfect.)

But what if they couldn't? Or a feature was weighted in some really unintuitive way that fooled professionals? If they made false assumptions about how it worked? Well, you can be sure the average person playing those games has been misled by an even greater degree.

I do think slots absolutely need greater transparency, but trying to put that through a regulatory agency might be a nightmare. How do you even define what information needs to be transparent? Does the helpfile for some complicated games (if they exist) need to include pages of possibilities of weightings for various factors if the probability is co-dependent on each other? Brute force information on dozens or hundreds or more possible "wild drop" combinations that may have been specifically done by computer to achieve an RTP?

It's a tricky situation. The best solution would be if players actually cared, so casinos and slotmakers would have an incentive to provide relevant information to give players what they needed. But many don't even care or think to question if they're playing a slot with a 92% rtp or a 98% rtp, so anything more complex than RTP and jackpot contribution definitely won't be forced by player/market demand.

I do want players to have more info, but I don't know if there's a good way to enforce it since there are many different kinds of slots and could always be new innovations in the future. I do think RTP should absolutely be provided to players, and fortunately most of the good sites and some jurisdictions require this. But many still don't - some casinos specifically hide this information. Feature drop chances would be nice, variance/standard deviation would be interesting but occasionally misleading (games with very high but rare jackpots will have misleadingly high variances that won't show up in short term play.) Also, information on if the game has a skill element or varying RTP depending on some factors could be crucial information (like if some "level up" games start you off with a lower RTP, etc.)

What SHOULD be banned are feature buys where the player is then immediately offered the "opportunity" (PFFFTTT!!!) to then gamble (and potentially lose) the feature they just bought.

To me, that is just plain wrong. If you buy a feature, you should be able to see that feature play out, no matter what.

I mostly disagree - choosing to buy the feature, gambling and losing it IS playing the feature. As long as it's clear enough to the player, I kind of think it's their own fault if they don't read the game info on how the feature works before playing the game.

All of which makes me find BTG's claim that "the best strategy is to ALWAYS gamble the wheel" to be the most disgusting and blatant lie I have ever heard from a slot provider.

It's the best strategy alright.....for BTG and their coffers!

I agree that's a really bad way to word it. It's the highest RTP strategy, but may not be what every player wants. I'm not sure it actually makes BTG more money though, I think churn on lower variance games actually generates the most money - but only if players feel enticed to play those games in the first place.

 

[zreb]

Great posts by lockinlove and Ladyhawke there - nice to see some folks still have some understanding and compassion for others, and get that gambling absolutely needs to be tightly regulated and controlled.

It is very arrogant and insulting to imply that those who disagree with you do so from a lack of compassion.

You may not have meant harm, but posts like this only serve to try to divide people into groups in a conversation that people may already feel somewhat heated over strongly divided opinions. There are certainly people with good intent on both sides of the issue - and that's usually true with most issues. Sure there are some bad apples, but it's better - and more productive - to try to understand the other side, even if an agreement won't necessarily (and probably won't) be reached.

 

[trancemonkey]

The problem is, the math can pretty easily be copied by any capable person unless the game mechanics are so hidden or unintuitive that a professional slot creator, mathematician, or programmer can't figure it out. If professionals with strong ability, understanding, time and incentive can't work out exactly how the game works, how is an average player supposed to know what's going on?

As a simple example, any slot that just involves a free spin bonus round with a multiplier could be completely figured out by mapping the reels. So now take a more complicated and less transparent feature, like IR randomly turning reels wild. You can't figure that out with direct math, but you can with trial, testing, and statistics come to a pretty close idea. A professional should be able to do this if they wanted. (Even if their accuracy on the vary rarest big payouts was imperfect.)

But what if they couldn't? Or a feature was weighted in some really unintuitive way that fooled professionals? If they made false assumptions about how it worked? Well, you can be sure the average person playing those games has been misled by an even greater degree.

I do think slots absolutely need greater transparency, but trying to put that through a regulatory agency might be a nightmare. How do you even define what information needs to be transparent? Does the helpfile for some complicated games (if they exist) need to include pages of possibilities of weightings for various factors if the probability is co-dependent on each other? Brute force information on dozens or hundreds or more possible "wild drop" combinations that may have been specifically done by computer to achieve an RTP?

It's a tricky situation. The best solution would be if players actually cared, so casinos and slotmakers would have an incentive to provide relevant information to give players what they needed. But many don't even care or think to question if they're playing a slot with a 92% rtp or a 98% rtp, so anything more complex than RTP and jackpot contribution definitely won't be forced by player/market demand.

I do want players to have more info, but I don't know if there's a good way to enforce it since there are many different kinds of slots and could always be new innovations in the future. I do think RTP should absolutely be provided to players, and fortunately most of the good sites and some jurisdictions require this. But many still don't - some casinos specifically hide this information. Feature drop chances would be nice, variance/standard deviation would be interesting but occasionally misleading (games with very high but rare jackpots will have misleadingly high variances that won't show up in short term play.) Also, information on if the game has a skill element or varying RTP depending on some factors could be crucial information (like if some "level up" games start you off with a lower RTP, etc.)



I mostly disagree - choosing to buy the feature, gambling and losing it IS playing the feature. As long as it's clear enough to the player, I kind of think it's their own fault if they don't read the game info on how the feature works before playing the game.



I agree that's a really bad way to word it. It's the highest RTP strategy, but may not be what every player wants. I'm not sure it actually makes BTG more money though, I think churn on lower variance games actually generates the most money - but only if players feel enticed to play those games in the first place.

You make a somewhat incorrect assumption here... I could play any games and pretty much work out how I would do the maths... But that in no way means I would get it right...

Slot games can be horrendously complex.

The rest of your points I agree with

 

[theapple]

My understanding of the regulations is that the chance to increase a character must be the same at all times. That doesn't mean each character has the same chance of course.

This whole "we need more information" discussion is for a whole other thread... But I honestly don't think it will happen and I don't think it should happen if I'm honest...

I'm all for casinos rating games by volatility or bonus frequency or win frequency but anything more than that is just pointless. Sorry guys. We will have to agree to disagree here.

so why are games (vikings go berzerk and such) allowed ?

i agree how some mystery has to be kept and thats what makes slots so much different to video poker and other stuff, but some slots are really pushing it too far. Theres a few slots at WH that have RTP of (90% - 96%) and thats it, thats all it says. Its mostly old slots though but some providers are still doing it with their new releases.

This is how its correctly done and RTP: %: 93.53% + JP 2.32% + 0.68% Reserve.

btw, you do realize how in pretty much every sphere of life there are people trying to make more money by doing stuff they arent supposed to do. Every time someone asks a question or says "how can we blindly trust gambling companies or testing companies" you respond with "but they are already making enough money, they dont need to do that stuff", which is ... not really how this world works lol. You know there are football players that make like 80 millions a year. Most of us would agree thats enough money for a few people, no? and yet it seems how pretty much 1/5 of those players are trying to avoid "rules" by avoiding taxes and stuff. Why on earth would they do so, if they already making so much?

oh and one last thing, how on earth is this allowed? Ever since i was a little kid, i was taught how rtp is always the same , and regardless of your betsize theres no way it could ever be any different. Because you know, companies already make enough money and stuff. so whats the catch here?

 

[Solaris]

so why are games (vikings go berzerk and such) allowed ?

i agree how some mystery has to be kept and thats what makes slots so much different to video poker and other stuff, but some slots are really pushing it too far. Theres a few slots at WH that have RTP of (90% - 96%) and thats it, thats all it says. Its mostly old slots though but some providers are still doing it with their new releases.

This is how its correctly done and RTP: %: 93.53% + JP 2.32% + 0.68% Reserve.

btw, you do realize how in pretty much every sphere of life there are people trying to make more money by doing stuff they arent supposed to do. Every time someone asks a question or says "how can we blindly trust gambling companies or testing companies" you respond with "but they are already making enough money, they dont need to do that stuff", which is ... not really how this world works lol. You know there are football players that make like 80 millions a year. Most of us would agree thats enough money for a few people, no? and yet it seems how pretty much 1/5 of those players are trying to avoid "rules" by avoiding taxes and stuff. Why on earth would they do so, if they already making so much?

oh and one last thing, how on earth is this allowed? Ever since i was a little kid, i was taught how rtp is always the same , and theres no way it could ever be any different. Because you know, companies already make enough money and stuff. so whats the catch here?
View attachment 96803

You are spot on! Just wanted to say that

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It is very arrogant and insulting to imply that those who disagree with you do so from a lack of compassion.

You may not have meant harm, but posts like this only serve to try to divide people into groups in a conversation that people may already feel somewhat heated over strongly divided opinions. There are certainly people with good intent on both sides of the issue - and that's usually true with most issues. Sure there are some bad apples, but it's better - and more productive - to try to understand the other side, even if an agreement won't necessarily (and probably won't) be reached.

I stand by the comment, although it was not intended to be upsetting or insulting.

As an ex-addict of catastrophic proportions - (I nearly lost my life to gambling lows on multiple occasions*) - I feel very strongly about the line of argument that runs with suggestions such as feature buys with subsequent all-or-nothing gambles are fine, and it's the player's fault for being a stupid gambler with no self control.

I'd be the first to admit I'm probably too emotionally invested in the debate to be entirely objective, although I do my best.


* Compensated UK AWPs were my downfall. (Which represent some of the most deceptive, manipulative and dishonest game design I've ever encountered.) I don't actually have any problems playing random games in a responsible fashion, but I can see from a mile off the problems games like Extra Chilli represent from an RG perspective.

 

[trancemonkey]

so why are games (vikings go berzerk and such) allowed ?

i agree how some mystery has to be kept and thats what makes slots so much different to video poker and other stuff, but some slots are really pushing it too far. Theres a few slots at WH that have RTP of (90% - 96%) and thats it, thats all it says. Its mostly old slots though but some providers are still doing it with their new releases.

This is how its correctly done and RTP: %: 93.53% + JP 2.32% + 0.68% Reserve.

btw, you do realize how in pretty much every sphere of life there are people trying to make more money by doing stuff they arent supposed to do. Every time someone asks a question or says "how can we blindly trust gambling companies or testing companies" you respond with "but they are already making enough money, they dont need to do that stuff", which is ... not really how this world works lol. You know there are football players that make like 80 millions a year. Most of us would agree thats enough money for a few people, no? and yet it seems how pretty much 1/5 of those players are trying to avoid "rules" by avoiding taxes and stuff. Why on earth would they do so, if they already making so much?

oh and one last thing, how on earth is this allowed? Ever since i was a little kid, i was taught how rtp is always the same , and regardless of your betsize theres no way it could ever be any different. Because you know, companies already make enough money and stuff. so whats the catch here?
View attachment 96803

With regards to the screenshot, I thought the UKGC had or were going to ban different RTPs at different stakes. But even if they haven't / didn't, as long as it states it in the rules you could do it.

With regards to "everyone wants to make more money" then absolutely I agree with you, but gambling companies are under immense scrutiny (at least those that operate in the UK) so your comparisons aren't really valid. And footballers use legal (normally, although morally questionable) methods to avoid tax. Again not the same as what you are suggesting.

 

[theapple]

With regards to the screenshot, I thought the UKGC had or were going to ban different RTPs at different stakes. But even if they haven't / didn't, as long as it states it in the rules you could do it.

With regards to "everyone wants to make more money" then absolutely I agree with you, but gambling companies are under immense scrutiny (at least those that operate in the UK) so your comparisons aren't really valid. And footballers use legal (normally, although morally questionable) methods to avoid tax. Again not the same as what you are suggesting.

thats what i thought. Its not allowed, but if they add it to Help file or to the rules, then its all ok? You do realize that sounds a bit ridiculous, right?

Regarding footballers, actually no its not talking about morally questionable methods. They have been using illegal methods, hence why a few of high profile players had to either pay millions or go to jail. Even if we were ok with sending people to jail because of morally dubious choices, thats not how it works They have to be guilty to go to jail, which means what they were (are) doing is not legal. And im pretty damn sure all of them are making enough money not to depend on that extra money, but yet they were doing it.

my point being you cant really go with "they make enough, they arent willing to take that risk of being caught redhanded" because thats simply not how this world operates. People are pretty simple actually. As long as you can, illegally make more money than you would have to pay when/if they finally catch you, its a +EV move of sorts and tons of big companies are knowingly doing it. Im not sure what makes you think gambling companies are an exception though?

Now to make myself perfectly clear, im not making any accusations and from my online play experience when it comes to actual return to players, online casinos world seems pretty fair (rough but fair eh ). I just wanted to debunk that "they wouldnt do it" line, something which was on a way to be taken as a fact here.

If a company, any company is making, idk 300 millions a year, but is able to make additional 400,600 or maybe 800 millions by bending some rules in their favor, or whats sometimes easier, buying people who are in charge of making rules/doing tests'n'stuff... from a business point of view thats a smart move and to believe no company would try and do so is a bit naive, imo.

the main thing is more transparency imo. And while i agree with you (once again) how there should be some mysticism around it it doesnt mean we have to go in blind.

I dont know how exactly does that stuff work (lack of transparency comes in play here) but something as simple as making a slot that achieves its theoretical RTP over 22 millions of spins, compared to some other companies which use 1 million of spins as their sample, would mean a lot of more money for company number 1. As i said i dont know if there are any limits and exact numbers when it comes to how is RTP achieved, but they wouldnt be doing anything illegal would they ?

I mean just look at the help page of slot i linked above, it literally says



i mean... many pays? seriously?

 

[snorky510238]

One of the main problems is that there is no difinitve point as far as black and white goes. Everything IMO is grey and open ended. 1. Trtp is calculated over billions of spins= problem is most of us will never achieve that amount of spins on a single game and if you did and it wasn’t quite right you would be told you were unlucky or it’s within the legal parameters. 2. Trance admits some features are predetermined but that’s not the case 99% of the time= bold statement when admitting some games are so complex you couldn’t work out how they are done without insider knowledge. 3. Games are tested to ensure they are fit for purpose= we do not know to what level and if the programmers are smarter than the testers then you know where that’s leading. I could go on and on but the bottom line is it’s so clever the way this industry has covered itself with answers that are not categorical proof of anything but just seem to have to be accepted because “they know” what they are talking about. The good thing about permanently wearing a tinfoil hat is it stops anyone from pulling the wool over your eyes.

 

[trancemonkey]

One of the main problems is that there is no difinitve point as far as black and white goes. Everything IMO is grey and open ended. 1. Trtp is calculated over billions of spins= problem is most of us will never achieve that amount of spins on a single game and if you did and it wasn’t quite right you would be told you were unlucky or it’s within the legal parameters. 2. Trance admits some features are predetermined but that’s not the case 99% of the time= bold statement when admitting some games are so complex you couldn’t work out how they are done without insider knowledge. 3. Games are tested to ensure they are fit for purpose= we do not know to what level and if the programmers are smarter than the testers then you know where that’s leading. I could go on and on but the bottom line is it’s so clever the way this industry has covered itself with answers that are not categorical proof of anything but just seem to have to be accepted because “they know” what they are talking about. The good thing about permanently wearing a tinfoil hat is it stops anyone from pulling the wool over your eyes.

So what categorical proof would you like?

 

[trancemonkey]

. 2. Trance admits some features are predetermined but that’s not the case 99% of the time= bold statement when admitting some games are so complex you couldn’t work out how they are done without insider knowledge.

Fake news.

Actually I never said I couldn't work out how they are done .. I said I could work out how I would do them but that wouldn't mean I got the maths exactly the same.

 

[trancemonkey]

thats what i thought. Its not allowed, but if they add it to Help file or to the rules, then its all ok? You do realize that sounds a bit ridiculous, right?

So people complain about Jamming Jars not being open and honest in the rules (rightly so btw) and now you're saying that when we put the actual rules in the rules pages that now we are being ridiculous...

Hmmmm

Regarding footballers, actually no its not talking about morally questionable methods. They have been using illegal methods, hence why a few of high profile players had to either pay millions or go to jail. Even if we were ok with sending people to jail because of morally dubious choices, thats not how it works They have to be guilty to go to jail, which means what they were (are) doing is not legal. And im pretty damn sure all of them are making enough money not to depend on that extra money, but yet they were doing it.

my point being you cant really go with "they make enough, they arent willing to take that risk of being caught redhanded" because thats simply not how this world operates. People are pretty simple actually. As long as you can, illegally make more money than you would have to pay when/if they finally catch you, its a +EV move of sorts and tons of big companies are knowingly doing it. Im not sure what makes you think gambling companies are an exception though?

I don't recall ever saying there aren't likely to be idiots in the industry. This site exists to out them. But the shit companies have to jump through to get a UKGC licence and the testing we have to go through with the games.... It's just not as easy as you might think. So there are surely some rogue ones out there but the chances of them being active in the UK or other well regulated juriadictions is very small.

wto make myself perfectly clear, im not making any accusations and from my online play experience when it comes to actual return to players, online casinos world seems pretty fair (rough but fair eh ). I just wanted to debunk that "they wouldnt do it" line, something which was on a way to be taken as a fact here.

You haven't debunked it. Sorry. The fact remains that someone like NetEnt or Ygg or whoever have an enormous amount to lose by trying to cheat... And with the scrutiny from the regulators, test houses, governments, players and casinos they would get caught. I'm pretty damm sure of it.

the main thing is more transparency imo. And while i agree with you (once again) how there should be some mysticism around it it doesnt mean we have to go in blind.

I dont know how exactly does that stuff work (lack of transparency comes in play here) but something as simple as making a slot that achieves its theoretical RTP over 22 millions of spins, compared to some other companies which use 1 million of spins as their sample, would mean a lot of more money for company number 1. As i said i dont know if there are any limits and exact numbers when it comes to how is RTP achieved, but they wouldnt be doing anything illegal would they ?

I mean just look at the help page of slot i linked above, it literally says

It wouldn't be illegal but it would be likely be a pretty awful game....

View attachment 96806

i mean... many pays? seriously?

So you'd like a number right? So on something like Bonanza which is not calculable, and requires simulation, you think it would be better to say "...OVER 1 BILLION GAMES".

 

[zreb]

I think the last set of posts are just some arguments over some mathematical misunderstandings. The "achieved over billions of plays" or whatever doesn't mean you're going to get screwed until you've played that long, it's just how much they simulated to be really sure they had the RTP correct. RTP is just the mathematical average result over ANY number of plays, whether it's 1 spin or 9 billion spins.

Also, rtp does very much matter in the short term. A 92% rtp game will hit you hard and fast most of the time compared to a 97% game. It's just that, as a player, it's almost impossible to tell the difference between getting unlucky at a 97% rtp game or getting robbed by a 92% or lower game. Personally, I think it's nice as a player to know that you aren't getting screwed over when you lose (if you're playing somewhere you trust that provides the RTP), rather than being completely in the dark and wondering if you just threw away your money. Sure, it's gone either way, but you know whether it's safe to play in the future rather than having a permanent uneasiness and possibly lighting more money on fire later on (which is why I kind of hate how some operators like RTG have configurable settings.)

 

[theapple]

So people complain about Jamming Jars not being open and honest in the rules (rightly so btw) and now you're saying that when we put the actual rules in the rules pages that now we are being ridiculous...

ill just reply to this part and lets say i agree with the rest of whatever you said. No im not too lazy to read, but i just hate it when people use something thats somewhat relevant to our current discussion, to trivialize or dismiss our current discussion. Without actually disagreeing with me. I just find that kinda ... cheap tactics

either way, no im not saying how adding new rules to help pages is ridiculous.

I said something much different - trying to invent a new rule just by adding it to help page is ridiculous. It doesnt override laws, so if you are not allowed to do something, you dont just go making up new rules saying look its in our helpfile/rules page, its all good! It really doesnt work that way

If you are not allowed to sell turtles, you dont just open a shop that has a printed file that says "WE SELL TURTLES", and expect to get away with it. Thats my main gripe with online casinos world in general, rules that are applicable to the rest of the world are easily dismissed there. And thats exactly why im not against more transparency.

 

[snorky510238]

So what categorical proof would you like?

That’s the point I was making the only proof would be highly confidential so we are always going to be at loggerheads with debates of this nature. Some of the simpler things would be nice to know, such as which particular outcomes of a game are omitted. For example a wildline in the base game on DOA.

 

[paul7388]

That’s the point I was making the only proof would be highly confidential so we are always going to be at loggerheads with debates of this nature. Some of the simpler things would be nice to know, such as which particular outcomes of a game are omitted. For example a wildline in the base game on DOA.

You can get a wild line in the base game of DOA.

 

[snorky510238]

You can get a wild line in the base game of DOA.

Ok do you know the odds? It’s just that I know 3 people who have done thousands of spins between them and never hit one.

 

[trancemonkey]

That’s the point I was making the only proof would be highly confidential so we are always going to be at loggerheads with debates of this nature. Some of the simpler things would be nice to know, such as which particular outcomes of a game are omitted. For example a wildline in the base game on DOA.

On the press of the start button every win has to be achievable in every base game spin.

 

[trancemonkey]

ill just reply to this part and lets say i agree with the rest of whatever you said. No im not too lazy to read, but i just hate it when people use something thats somewhat relevant to our current discussion, to trivialize or dismiss our current discussion. Without actually disagreeing with me. I just find that kinda ... cheap tactics

either way, no im not saying how adding new rules to help pages is ridiculous.

I said something much different - trying to invent a new rule just by adding it to help page is ridiculous. It doesnt override laws, so if you are not allowed to do something, you dont just go making up new rules saying look its in our helpfile/rules page, its all good! It really doesnt work that way

If you are not allowed to sell turtles, you dont just open a shop that has a printed file that says "WE SELL TURTLES", and expect to get away with it. Thats my main gripe with online casinos world in general, rules that are applicable to the rest of the world are easily dismissed there. And thats exactly why im not against more transparency.

I think we are talking cross purposes here... Blueprint can't get around the technical standards (rules) by just putting something in the help pages.

What I meant was, if it wasn't clear, that if it WASN'T against the rules to run multiple RTPs on one game across different stakes (and I don't know if this rule has changed or not) then blueprint have every right to do so as long as it is stated in the rules.

 

[theapple]

I think we are talking cross purposes here... Blueprint can't get around the technical standards (rules) by just putting something in the help pages.

What I meant was, if it wasn't clear, that if it WASN'T against the rules to run multiple RTPs on one game across different stakes (and I don't know if this rule has changed or not) then blueprint have every right to do so as long as it is stated in the rules.

now thats fine and clear. You did say its a rule they cant run multiple RTP's for multiple betsizes. Or at least thats how i understood it. But that just gets us back to square one again, how we have to blindly trust developers and casinos and thats it.

for years there have been providers running lower rtp of their slots (mostly incognito) and most of that info was omitted. People found out about it and nothing really happened. Only ukgc is actually doing something but the truth is ukgc covers what, 1% or maybe 2% of global gambling population? The rest of players are simply supposed to put their trust in casinos and developers which is kinda odd thing to ask for when you are trying to hide just about every possible info when it comes to your slots (im not talking about you here, but casinos/developers in general, just to make that clear ).

heck, until today i had no clue Pragmatic gives different RTP % to chose from, and unlike some people here i do think thats a big deal, and as i already said if stuff like that happened in other spheres of life where money is involved there would be huge fines. But in online casinos world, devs and casinos get a free pass and simple "oops sorry we didnt think thats a big deal" usually fixes things.

And then we have people like you asking players to put their faith in regulatory commissions and casinos themselves, in a market where, if stuff goes wrong most of the time players are left on their own and if it wasnt for places like CM, casinos always win. Or can simply chose to ignore complaints, which is an option too.

So no, i dont think those "vocal" players as people would call them (us?) are asking for too much.

 

[theapple]

And one last thing. Just few recent things that happened

- slots being released with imaginary unlimited potential - not a big deal if you cant win more than xx even if there is no max win stated, and reels allow for basically unlimited win multiplier, because. idk what was the reason why its not important anymore tbh. We even have people saying its not even remotely similar to false advertising because. Because its slots so its cool.

- casinos being able to chose RTP for slots with help file not containing true RTP (or rtp at all), for playngo slots. Unlike UKGC casinos, casinos that cover the rest of the world still can get away with it. But hey its not a big deal. Now we found another provider offers different rpt settings, but we are not sure if casinos are showing current or default RTP, or whats the default rtp to begin with.

- not one, but 3 providers were providing fake versions of their slots via fun play. Thats 3 i know about. Who the ef knows how many were there anymore. Amatic, Wazdan and GameArt. Wazdan and gameart humbly agreed to change it, and release a big press conference saying "oops". Amatic still does it. Not a big deal.

thats just off top of my head and afaik, not once were any fines, fees, whatevers even mentioned. Hell nobody even said even "bad bad casinos/developers shame on you". Its like it never happened

and thats just the recent stuff, and none of it includes players being scammed by random (non ukgc) casinos on daily basis and thats something that has, sadly become a completely normal and accepted thing among slot players.

Im not getting into playtech or betfair issues that were pretty huge but ultimately ended up being "resolved" because casinos showed some "good will". Thats what this market has lead us to, being dependent on casinos/providers good will to solve things.

Thats why i said its such a badly regulated market, and its not necessarily related to RTP.

Its a combination of the little things that should be visible to players at all times, but are not because apparently transparency is so 90's. If we also add shady things 100's of random casinos are doing on daily basis, and slot developers being able to get away with just about anything simply by fixing it whenever someone figures out something is wrong, without any danger of being fined... thats what makes me, for one not willing to blindly trust this market as a whole.

edit: Mind you i double checked your answers and i couldnt find anything about vikings slots which are, or are not compensated? Im not an expert, but i play slots. And vikings go berzerk definitely doesnt fit that "On the press of the start button every win has to be achievable in every base game spin." rule, right? If vikings go missing, they are not achievable. So how was it allowed to pass whatever checks ...checking companies do?

maybe you did answer it but i really missed it and im not trying to be annoying or anything. But i do want to learn more about slots and how does all this work, and if it wasnt for you half of the stuff would still be locked somewhere in CIA confidental files, so even if sometimes i dont agree with you, thank you for all youve done and i really mean it

 

[brianmon]

Ok do you know the odds? It’s just that I know 3 people who have done thousands of spins between them and never hit one.

I've hit it once. But that was over 4 years ago.
You would expect to see it more often though, considering it only pays 166x stake