Time To Ban The Feature Buy!

[trancemonkey]

The one thing I think is pretty crazy is the way slot providers are allowed to release slots that give very little info to the player
Especially slots that have some sort of progressive component like Wild Swarm . Is there any info about how often the swarm is activated ? Does it say anything about changing bet size and how this affects the game ? What about the rtp before the hive is activated compared to afterwards ? Idk if all this stuff is written anywhere but it seems like players are used to just pressing the spin button and seeing what happens
Maybe it's also the fault of the players for not reading the rules thoroughly but I think there needs to be a lot more transparency about the mechanics of games and the payouts

There is as much transparency as there needs to be. Giving too much information can be counter-productive. Not giving enough is a compliance issue.

Why should we have to tell you how often a feature is? I could make a game that has a feature every 500 spins but plays really well the rest of the time. But if I tell you that it might put you off trying it .. so no, I don't think that is information players need or, except for a very vocal minority, want.

Are there some areas we as an industry could improve on... Sure. But there needs to be an air of mystery about some things...

 

[trancemonkey]

How is that different to what I said ? I'm talking about buying the bonus . So the 8 spins should pay rtp x bonus buy cost (on average ofc) . And then 12 spins should pay twice that on avg because there's 50% chance you get zero . And 16 spins should pay 10/3 on avg because there's 30% chance you reach the 16 spins and 70% chance you get zero .. etc

Yeah it was only the bit at the end where you went a bit awry...

 

[zap987]

About the Endorphina gambles, if you take a deck of cards, pick one card as your card then put 4 cards out face down and then flip a random card your card will end up with a 50/50. You just need to look at the whole sequence of picking the cards, not just the choice of which card to flip.

That being said there is something going on with Endorphina, considering you get to choose to not gamble after you see your card. The optimal strategy is somewhere in the helpfiles, showing RTP depending on your card, but essentially you have to check the gamble every single win to get the advertised RTP. Enough for me to not bother playing them.

 

[geordiecolin]

About a month ago I decided to set a bet limit in Videoslots to below the minimal bonus buy in limit because after a few drinks it is so easy to be too brave.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There is as much transparency as there needs to be. Giving too much information can be counter-productive. Not giving enough is a compliance issue.

Why should we have to tell you how often a feature is? I could make a game that has a feature every 500 spins but plays really well the rest of the time. But if I tell you that it might put you off trying it .. so no, I don't think that is information players need or, except for a very vocal minority, want.

Are there some areas we as an industry could improve on... Sure. But there needs to be an air of mystery about some things...

So how do you explain the success of Video Poker then? That game seems to have done pretty well over the years, by all accounts, even though there are thousands of readily available resources such as this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's incredibly patronising to suggest that as players we could be over-burdened by 'too much information', or heaven forfend, actually start to understand on a wider scale what it is we're really up against. (Far better to have the ignorant and the uninformed just dutifully handing over their cash from now until the end of time though, I guess?)

And yes, frankly, I think the maths behind these games should be public knowledge so that players can make an informed decision about whether or not they wish to commit real money to playing them.

Hopefully the UKGC will legislate for this in due course.

 

[JGslots]

So how do you explain the success of Video Poker then? That game seems to have done pretty well over the years, by all accounts, even though there are thousands of readily available resources such as this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's incredibly patronising to suggest that as players we could be over-burdened by 'too much information', or heaven forfend, actually start to understand on a wider scale what it is we're really up against. (Far better to have the ignorant and the uninformed just dutifully handing over their cash from now until the end of time though, I guess?)

And yes, frankly, I think the maths behind these games should be public knowledge so that players can make an informed decision about whether or not they wish to commit real money to playing them.

Hopefully the UKGC will legislate for this in due course.

I kind of agree with you there. But part of the fun for me is analysing a slot, seeing how it behaves, if its in the base, the free spins and what not.
Much of the surprise, the lure and unknown would be ruined for me If I had access to too much detailed information of a game.

On the other hand, I would like to have access to the maths behind a compensated game That would be some what advantageous.

Can I borrow your tin foiled hat please? Is it possible for a game to be random with a compensated element?

Rob

 

[goatwack]

Someone just email the UKGC and mention 'Think of the children' and they'll be on it quicker than lightning.

Thought they had the right 'intentions' when scolding companies over their child-centric advertizing.....

Yet Feature Buys & deceptive wording remain, strong as ever. And as for odds-disclosure, the UKGC will get round to that TBA 2025

 

[Reelsoffun]

Is it possible for a game to be random with a compensated element?

Rob

Yes, in the same way as compensated games can and do still have a random element, but why would a random game need to be done this way if the math is worked out.

I have made loads of slot games with each method, but were not used commercially.

Bottom line that confuses people is there is hundreds of ways to do a slot.

 

[Jono777]

Can I borrow your tin foiled hat please? Is it possible for a game to be random with a compensated element?

Rob

Indeed, in my opinion most of them already are.

*Disclaimer: I still mean fair and not rigged.

 

[goatwack]

So 'Fair Rigging' essentially

Or Frigging, in short

 

[trancemonkey]

So how do you explain the success of Video Poker then? That game seems to have done pretty well over the years, by all accounts, even though there are thousands of readily available resources such as this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's incredibly patronising to suggest that as players we could be over-burdened by 'too much information', or heaven forfend, actually start to understand on a wider scale what it is we're really up against. (Far better to have the ignorant and the uninformed just dutifully handing over their cash from now until the end of time though, I guess?)

And yes, frankly, I think the maths behind these games should be public knowledge so that players can make an informed decision about whether or not they wish to commit real money to playing them.

Hopefully the UKGC will legislate for this in due course.

Never in a million years are companies going to be forced with give away their only IP.

If you're talking about bonus frequency and win frequency then this is information we already give to casinos and operators so maybe some will use that publicly in future. Anything more than this (frequency of wins of certain size) is getting in to the realms of giving away the maths profiles of games and that is the IP of the games.

That my friend is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

 

[trancemonkey]

So how do you explain the success of Video Poker then? That game seems to have done pretty well over the years, by all accounts, even though there are thousands of readily available resources such as this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It's incredibly patronising to suggest that as players we could be over-burdened by 'too much information', or heaven forfend, actually start to understand on a wider scale what it is we're really up against. (Far better to have the ignorant and the uninformed just dutifully handing over their cash from now until the end of time though, I guess?)

To answer your first question, Joker Poker is incredibly easy to work out because the rules are clear and the paytable is available to the player. It is an entirely different beast to slot games. The two are not comparable in the same way I'm afraid.

And whether you find it patronising or not is your choice... But we still have people on here who think everything is rigged regardless of evidence. And yes I do think too much information could be a bad thing... You are entitled to disagree.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Yeh thats the problem we're supposed to go on "trust" but as you can see a lot of people don't have much trust in slots . Not just whether they are "random" but also not much trust in things like gambles for more spins in bonuses
As an example , I once lost a lot of money in a game that you were involved in designing I believe called Lightning Squad . I am maybe £1500 down on this from £4 spins . Now I have upgraded the various characters but nowhere does it tell me what these upgrades are worth in real terms... I either keep playing the game on faith in the hope that these upgraded bonuses will be significantly better . Sure , it might say x y and z symbols removed or something like that but then they can use different reel strips anyway
For example , danger high voltage you get the gates bonus and you get a "9" symbol . Wow suddenly all the 9s disappear from the reels . Ofc it's obviously a different reel strip because in the basegame there are 9s EVERYWHERE lol . So just because an "upgraded" bonus sounds good doesn't necessarily mean it is a fair representation of tha actual value/potential of the bonus since we're not given all the relevant info
Or I give up on the game because it's cost me too much money . It also seems to me that when I get a bonus it is far more likely to give me the crap level 2 electrocutie one.. again there's no info on this though . So I could be giving up a ton of +rtp by not continuing to play this but on the other hand do I really want to burn any more money on it ? It might take me for another 2k giving me the occasional crap bonus . We're just expected to click the spin button and take everything on faith and as long as the trtp is 96% then everything is ok

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Anyone who has played Wild Swarm would say that filling up the hive with £100 spins and then playing on 20p spins once the hive is maxed would be a terrible idea ? but again as long as the game pays out the correct x stake overall then the trtp would be correct

I agree that a bit of mystery is part of the fun and of course noone wants to read through a ton of maths before pressing the spin button BUT somewhere some more advanced info should be available , especially for these cumulative type games , so that players can take a closer look at what they are throwing money into

Also , changing your betsize and you lose all your progress ? That should not be legal for responsible gaming reasons amongst others , encouraging players to stick with a betsize they maybe can't afford or losing the supposedly increased rtp from their progress
I really wonder how deeply into the game dynamics the slot testers go ? Or do they simply pass the slot as long as it matches the trtp with "optimal play" ?

 

[trancemonkey]

I wasn't involved in Lightning Squad but it was an Inspired game. The levels are better as they go up... It doesn't guarantee you'll win more of course but the averages for each level increase so the chances of winning higher amounts increase with the levels. It is not cheating and therefore it is self explanatory. What you're asking for is something to say that what it is doing visually it is doing mathematically.

Section 7c of the remote gaming technical standards (that we have to abide by) says we can not show misleading artwork or have a misleading game design (I'm paraphrasing but that's a part of it) so if we didn't improve the average win with the levels then we could have failed compliance. Also the feature you win cannot be biased by the level you are on... Again that would fail compliance as that is compensation.

And yes most players do work on trust .. there is a vocal minority that don't trust the games but then I would always ask why play if you don't trust them at all.

Have you ever read all the help pages? I don't mean the ones in the game, i mean the actually help pages that you have to go to a web page to read (in Lightning Squad I think it's via the menu then the ? button). There is a LOT of text on there.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Yeh Ive read the help pages but it won't show any figures , just what the bonus upgrade is like extra wild , symbol removed etc but like I said we know that reel strips change and wilds have a miraculous ability to land in the wrong places most of the time . I would like to know how much my current rtp has increased by upgrading the characters . Or is it just for show essentially and the rtp is still around 95% . For example , if you were 1 potion away from filling a meter in tower quest then you would be stupid not to keep playing the game . But in this game I really have no idea and I can't change my stake either to get the bonus cheaply (instead of £4 the bonus could then trigger at a £3.90 stake or w/e like yggdrasil does)

 

[Solaris]

I wasn't involved in Lightning Squad but it was an Inspired game. The levels are better as they go up... It doesn't guarantee you'll win more of course but the averages for each level increase so the chances of winning higher amounts increase with the levels. It is not cheating and therefore it is self explanatory. What you're asking for is something to say that what it is doing visually it is doing mathematically.

Section 7c of the remote gaming technical standards (that we have to abide by) says we can not show misleading artwork or have a misleading game design (I'm paraphrasing but that's a part of it) so if we didn't improve the average win with the levels then we could have failed compliance. Also the feature you win cannot be biased by the level you are on... Again that would fail compliance as that is compensation.

And yes most players do work on trust .. there is a vocal minority that don't trust the games but then I would always ask why play if you don't trust them at all.

Have you ever read all the help pages? I don't mean the ones in the game, i mean the actually help pages that you have to go to a web page to read (in Lightning Squad I think it's via the menu then the ? button). There is a LOT of text on there.

Hi

How would you explain treasure chests and free spins in Vikings go Berzerk?

To elaborate:

When you get a chest, you are supposed to be able to choose one out of five with obviously five different outcomes, but if you reload the game whitout picking a chest you'll get the option to "skip" it and get the price or whatever is inside, thus it seems very pre-determined.
The same goes with the free spins: when you hit a free spin, it is already predermined when reloading the game as you get the option to skip.

Is this not misleading as the instructions give you the idea that you can choose one out of five outcomes from the chests? They can be found in free spins as well.

And don't get me started on the rage buliding...that's for another day.

 

[SlotGrinder]

That's simple . It's just the prize/free spins is determined as soon as you land a chest or freespins symbols . The picking etc is just for show
The rage building is another thing altogether . That's something I'd like to see figures for but of course we're expected to go on trust and keep playing until the rage meter is filled . And then you have one character half filled so you have to fill that one.. and how much rtp gets left behind because of course you can't do that forever.
Also , we don't truly know how random the rage filling is . Is it somehow weighted ? Or is the chance of increasing any rage meter the same for any character at any time ? And what is that chance % ?
I think this info should be available to the customer (somewhere) as more important than the slot provider's protection from competitors

 

[Reelsoffun]

I wasn't involved in Lightning Squad but it was an Inspired game. The levels are better as they go up... It doesn't guarantee you'll win more of course but the averages for each level increase so the chances of winning higher amounts increase with the levels. It is not cheating and therefore it is self explanatory. What you're asking for is something to say that what it is doing visually it is doing mathematically.

Section 7c of the remote gaming technical standards (that we have to abide by) says we can not show misleading artwork or have a misleading game design (I'm paraphrasing but that's a part of it) so if we didn't improve the average win with the levels then we could have failed compliance. Also the feature you win cannot be biased by the level you are on... Again that would fail compliance as that is compensation.

And yes most players do work on trust .. there is a vocal minority that don't trust the games but then I would always ask why play if you don't trust them at all.

Have you ever read all the help pages? I don't mean the ones in the game, i mean the actually help pages that you have to go to a web page to read (in Lightning Squad I think it's via the menu then the ? button). There is a LOT of text on there.

This sort of thing is the one main reason I personally do not play any slots with any kind of progression type features with the exception of "immortal romance", purely due to they are never made clear what impact each one has to the RTP. Eg games like wild swarm and that vikings go bezerk etc.


The only reason I still play IR is that I strongly suspect that each of the 4 free spin modes has the exact expected RTP, just different volatility, and this also seemed to be backed up with the leaked Par sheet i once had for it, so based on that Im happy to work through the modes, as your facing the same RTP all the time, no matter where you are or leave it.

Recent games give you the impression and feel like if you don't unlock all the stuff your facing lower RTP until you are, whether that is the case or not its all not clear.

Other games that are a pet hate is games like wolf hunters 3 different game modes that fill, and feels like RTP is held in them all, and unless you get to the rare point of getting them all awarded close together you feel like RTP is tried up and will never get it out until that rare event happens, not to mentioning the fact it constantly gives you something to chase, so no thanks not games for me.

 

[Solaris]

That's simple . It's just the prize/free spins is determined as soon as you land a chest or freespins symbols . The picking etc is just for show
The rage building is another thing altogether . That's something I'd like to see figures for but of course we're expected to go on trust and keep playing until the rage meter is filled . And then you have one character half filled so you have to fill that one.. and how much rtp gets left behind because of course you can't do that forever.
Also , we don't truly know how random the rage filling is . Is it somehow weighted ? Or is the chance of increasing any rage meter the same for any character at any time ? And what is that chance % ?
I think this info should be available to the customer (somewhere) as more important than the slot provider's protection from competitors

That's the problem when pickings are just for show, because I didn't know that when I started to play that game some years ago.
I lost during my old "playing career" approx. 20000€ on that game. Loved it and hated it. My fault of course playing a faulty slot.
Filled rage spins in my statistics gave only 2/10 times my initial betting back.
It is a never ending slotty that you will get nowhere near any shown trtp as I have statistics to prove that on millions of spins.
Biggest win I had was approx. 500x.

Music is fantastic though.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Oh and a word of warning to the players that do play these type of games like vikings go berzerk and all those with progressive stuff.

My mate had a game crash on a feature ( why is it always a feature ) and then a stuck unrecoverable game ( sound familiar? think a lot of slot players would have had one of these at some point ) after about 2 weeks the provider finally fixed it but had to void it. returned his last spin stake. So it then can run again, however all the progressive progress was lost and they said there was nothing they could do to recover it. So another reason not to risk those type of games IMO. I guess some tracking file got corrupt on the server/ player account and he had to "start" again from scratch, hmmm not bad considering these games are random, so why should it have had to have been reset, i have my ideas but you can all draw your own conclusions...... tin foil at the ready......

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi

How would you explain treasure chests and free spins in Vikings go Berzerk?

To elaborate:

When you get a chest, you are supposed to be able to choose one out of five with obviously five different outcomes, but if you reload the game whitout picking a chest you'll get the option to "skip" it and get the price or whatever is inside, thus it seems very pre-determined.
The same goes with the free spins: when you hit a free spin, it is already predermined when reloading the game as you get the option to skip.

Is this not misleading as the instructions give you the idea that you can choose one out of five outcomes from the chests? They can be found in free spins as well.

And don't get me started on the rage buliding...that's for another day.

You can choose one of the five outcomes. It's just you can't select which outcome you want. You select a chest and the game gives you one of the five.

 

[trancemonkey]

That's simple . It's just the prize/free spins is determined as soon as you land a chest or freespins symbols . The picking etc is just for show
The rage building is another thing altogether . That's something I'd like to see figures for but of course we're expected to go on trust and keep playing until the rage meter is filled . And then you have one character half filled so you have to fill that one.. and how much rtp gets left behind because of course you can't do that forever.
Also , we don't truly know how random the rage filling is . Is it somehow weighted ? Or is the chance of increasing any rage meter the same for any character at any time ? And what is that chance % ?
I think this info should be available to the customer (somewhere) as more important than the slot provider's protection from competitors

My understanding of the regulations is that the chance to increase a character must be the same at all times. That doesn't mean each character has the same chance of course.

This whole "we need more information" discussion is for a whole other thread... But I honestly don't think it will happen and I don't think it should happen if I'm honest...

I'm all for casinos rating games by volatility or bonus frequency or win frequency but anything more than that is just pointless. Sorry guys. We will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Solaris]

Oh and a word of warning to the players that do play these type of games like vikings go berzerk and all those with progressive stuff.

My mate had a game crash on a feature ( why is it always a feature ) and then a stuck unrecoverable game ( sound familiar? think a lot of slot players would have had one of these at some point ) after about 2 weeks the provider finally fixed it but had to void it. returned his last spin stake. So it then can run again, however all the progressive progress was lost and they said there was nothing they could do to recover it. So another reason not to risk those type of games IMO. I guess some tracking file got corrupt on the server/ player account and he had to "start" again from scratch, hmmm not bad considering these games are random, so why should it have had to have been reset, i have my ideas but you can all draw your own conclusions...... tin foil at the ready......

Is it not allowed on this forum to say a slot or a provider is experienced corrupt and unfair without getting the word tin foil hat thrown after you?
Do people really think that the liscences that is set up for slots and gambling in general in Europe are so fair that you should just accept any loss and put the blame on the player only?
"Liscenced" gambling in my opinion is unfair, that is why the business is so big, and players especially on forums like this should stand up
instead of hiding (sure there are those who already does that) behind maths and complaining threads that never reach anyone that are in a position to make
changes in the business. Like one pointed out earlier in this thread that this will never reach anyone. Even the volitality trend is headed in a more "dark" direction for the players.
This is how the business is now and we all had our temptations, acceptance and courage to go on playing under these circumstances so we are all to blame (with the providers of course).

You can choose one of the five outcomes. It's just you can't select which outcome you want. You select a chest and the game gives you one of the five.

Correction: You can choose one out of one outcome no matter what card you push out of the five you see

 

[SpinUk]

This is probably a part of the reason a game like immortal romance is/was so popular - people are enticed by the theoretical maximum wins with 4/5 wild reels. But the odds of those are so low that it saves enough of the rtp for the rest of the game to play as medium variance - keeping the dream (or the illusion) of the monster win alive without smashing the player like a true high variance slot can.

Of course, the high variance slots can be popular because they actually DO spit out those 1000-3000x wins once every 20,000 spins or so. But in exchange, they really crush you most of the other times.

300,000 spins or so....

 

[mack341]

Never in a million years are companies going to be forced with give away their only IP.

If you're talking about bonus frequency and win frequency then this is information we already give to casinos and operators so maybe some will use that publicly in future. Anything more than this (frequency of wins of certain size) is getting in to the realms of giving away the maths profiles of games and that is the IP of the games.

That my friend is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

I found the following paragraph in the 'remote gambling and software technical standards' 2017:

"RTS requirement 3C
For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must include:
i. a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are determined and prizes allocated
ii. house edge (or margin)
iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage or
iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring."

It seems to me that the rtp information being measured as it is over a significant number of game plays [100,000+] isn't really that useful to the player other than to compare games, and most games seem to hover round the 96% figure in any case.

Some information matching iv above would be useful for encouraging responsible gambling; if exact figures gave away maths profiles then the 'greater than' and 'less than' symbols could be used < > but at least the customer would have a ball park idea of the win probabilities.

Also after watching dunovers recent vids about 'clone' games it seems to me that it's not too hard for game developers to work out and copy the maths of other developer's games, so the 'secrecy' reason given doesn't entirely hold water and at any rate games could be copyrighted protected just like music and books to prevent plagiarism.