The Day Has arrived for The UK

[Matti]

Hi all,

I've been away travelling for a while. It have given me some time to further reflect on the result of the British referendum that now seems like ages ago

I don't know if this result in the end will be good or bad for the Brits, for EU, or for Europe as a continent, from an economical point of view. Personally that is not as important as the issue of how easy we humans forget.

The thing that's keep nagging me the last weeks is that I see the increasing intolarance between people, and nations, all over Europe. I see the nationalistic, populistic politians all over Europe increasing there popularity and blaming "foreigners" for unemployment, rape, etc.

Nationalism is growing again in Europe and I don't like it. For me it is ok with Nationalism in the World Cup, Olympics etc, but it has nothing to do in politics. (The same goes for religion.) I know what theese trend has led too in the past. I just wish that everyone remember this aswell.

Matti

 

[geordiecolin]

Hi all,

I've been away travelling for a while. It have given me some time to further reflect on the result of the British referendum that now seems like ages ago

I don't know if this result in the end will be good or bad for the Brits, for EU, or for Europe as a continent, from an economical point of view. Personally that is not as important as the issue of how easy we humans forget.

The thing that's keep nagging me the last weeks is that I see the increasing intolarance between people, and nations, all over Europe. I see the nationalistic, populistic politians all over Europe increasing there popularity and blaming "foreigners" for unemployment, rape, etc.

Nationalism is growing again in Europe and I don't like it. For me it is ok with Nationalism in the World Cup, Olympics etc, but it has nothing to do in politics. (The same goes for religion.) I know what theese trend has led too in the past. I just wish that everyone remember this aswell.

Matti

I was just wondering, Is immigration the most sincerest form of flattery?

 

[goatwack]

I was just wondering, Is immigration the most sincerest form of flattery?

I'll be damned if -foreign know

 

[Matti]

I was just wondering, Is immigration the most sincerest form of flattery?

Hi geordiecolin,

Thank you for you're comment. You actually came through as a karikatyr of what I was trying to say

 

[geordiecolin]

Hi geordiecolin,

Thank you for you're comment. You actually came through as a karikatyr of what I was trying to say

I had to google "karikatyr" just to be sure. If you are referencing me as akin to the first image then you must be taking the piss?

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[geordiecolin]

I'll be damned if -foreign know

Well you really didn't do yourself justice with that one Goaty!
I actually thunk that I was quite clever for a change thinking up that one liner

 

[goatwack]

Well you really didn't do yourself justice with that one Goaty!
I actually thunk that I was quite clever for a change thinking up that one liner

Haha yeah I fear you may be right Colin, it's been a rotten slot day all round and it's permeated my posts!

Your line gets my official seal of approval, and definitely quote of the thread by a mile!

 

[geordiecolin]

Haha yeah I fear you may be right Colin, it's been a rotten slot day all round and it's permeated my posts!

Your line gets my official seal of approval, and definitely quote of the thread by a mile!

Your approval will be the death of me!
My slotting today has been utterly awful except for the small freebies I have had which I always consider as a welfare bonus that I was not entitled too

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi all,

I've been away travelling for a while. It have given me some time to further reflect on the result of the British referendum that now seems like ages ago

I don't know if this result in the end will be good or bad for the Brits, for EU, or for Europe as a continent, from an economical point of view. Personally that is not as important as the issue of how easy we humans forget.

The thing that's keep nagging me the last weeks is that I see the increasing intolarance between people, and nations, all over Europe. I see the nationalistic, populistic politians all over Europe increasing there popularity and blaming "foreigners" for unemployment, rape, etc.

Nationalism is growing again in Europe and I don't like it. For me it is ok with Nationalism in the World Cup, Olympics etc, but it has nothing to do in politics. (The same goes for religion.) I know what theese trend has led too in the past. I just wish that everyone remember this aswell.

Matti

I hope this is just a rebound effect, rather than the start of a nasty trend. Government policy here has been to bend over backwards to meet the needs of every single migrant smart enough to evade controls and set foot on British soil, yet at the same time ever increasing numbers of our own people are forced to live on the streets, use food banks, and a few have even died through poverty. This has built up considerable anger, like a pressure cooker on a hot stove, and Brexit was the first opportunity this anger had a legitimate outlet that the politicians could not silence by saying "we can't even discuss this, it's politically incorrect". Unfortunately, it doesn't seem a win for Brexit has been enough, the repressed anger has been allowed to grow and fester for far too long. So long as people see our own people put out onto the streets whilst migrants are put up in hotels and fed three meals a day at government expense, this anger is not really going to subside.

The government needs to change it's policy and ensure that the basic minimum standards apply to EVERYONE, not just migrants. This means EVERYONE who has been put out onto the street or cannot afford to feed themselves should receive the same basic safety net of a hotel room and 3 meals a day.

A more controversial way to deal with the anger might be to tell migrants that the second they are given leave to remain, even if it's while their claim is processed, they will be expected to seek work and pay their way just the same as any other person living here. If they don't comply, there will be no easy option of lazy days and free food and board, they will end up on the streets just like anyone else who refuses to engage and actively seek work when claiming benefits. People may moan about their jobs being taken, but they do anyway, but the accusation that migrants are allowed to laze about all day and get everything handed to them on a plate whilst Brits are expected to do 35 hours jobsearch per week in return for help will no longer hold water.

Another way to help the situation will be to deal effectively with any daft councils that decide to do silly things like "cancel Christmas" or "ban sausages from the school menu" on the grounds " it might cause offence" whilst not giving a toss that their ban HAS "caused offence" to the local population. Instead the attitude should be one of choice, we celebrate Christmas and eat sausages, and whilst we expect to be allowed to continue this way of life, we do not force others to do the same if it goes against their beliefs. This is what "tolerance" REALLY means, the freedom for us to eat sausages, and the freedom for those with different beliefs to refrain from eating sausages.
Instead, we get "you can no longer have sausages because it's against the beliefs of others to eat sausages". It's not just sausages, we have had hot cross buns taken off menus, bans on the exchange of Christmas cards between classmates, all justified by this "fear of causing offence".
Over time, this is GUARANTEED to cause a backlash at some point, once a trigger event occurs. In this case, the trigger was the completely unexpected victory for the Brexit camp, which had government and opposition in a state of disarray for weeks.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I hope this is just a rebound effect, rather than the start of a nasty trend. Government policy here has been to bend over backwards to meet the needs of every single migrant smart enough to evade controls and set foot on British soil, yet at the same time ever increasing numbers of our own people are forced to live on the streets, use food banks, and a few have even died through poverty. This has built up considerable anger, like a pressure cooker on a hot stove, and Brexit was the first opportunity this anger had a legitimate outlet that the politicians could not silence by saying "we can't even discuss this, it's politically incorrect". Unfortunately, it doesn't seem a win for Brexit has been enough, the repressed anger has been allowed to grow and fester for far too long. So long as people see our own people put out onto the streets whilst migrants are put up in hotels and fed three meals a day at government expense, this anger is not really going to subside.

The government needs to change it's policy and ensure that the basic minimum standards apply to EVERYONE, not just migrants. This means EVERYONE who has been put out onto the street or cannot afford to feed themselves should receive the same basic safety net of a hotel room and 3 meals a day.

A more controversial way to deal with the anger might be to tell migrants that the second they are given leave to remain, even if it's while their claim is processed, they will be expected to seek work and pay their way just the same as any other person living here. If they don't comply, there will be no easy option of lazy days and free food and board, they will end up on the streets just like anyone else who refuses to engage and actively seek work when claiming benefits. People may moan about their jobs being taken, but they do anyway, but the accusation that migrants are allowed to laze about all day and get everything handed to them on a plate whilst Brits are expected to do 35 hours jobsearch per week in return for help will no longer hold water.

Another way to help the situation will be to deal effectively with any daft councils that decide to do silly things like "cancel Christmas" or "ban sausages from the school menu" on the grounds " it might cause offence" whilst not giving a toss that their ban HAS "caused offence" to the local population. Instead the attitude should be one of choice, we celebrate Christmas and eat sausages, and whilst we expect to be allowed to continue this way of life, we do not force others to do the same if it goes against their beliefs. This is what "tolerance" REALLY means, the freedom for us to eat sausages, and the freedom for those with different beliefs to refrain from eating sausages.
Instead, we get "you can no longer have sausages because it's against the beliefs of others to eat sausages". It's not just sausages, we have had hot cross buns taken off menus, bans on the exchange of Christmas cards between classmates, all justified by this "fear of causing offence".
Over time, this is GUARANTEED to cause a backlash at some point, once a trigger event occurs. In this case, the trigger was the completely unexpected victory for the Brexit camp, which had government and opposition in a state of disarray for weeks.

Quite disappointed with your post VWM, to be honest.

Blaming all trouble the UK is facing today to the slight NET increase in migrants is rather opportunistic.

- Social services suffered for decades from the decisions of the last few governments to cut public spending and to feed big corporations instead with massive tax breaks.

- The UK school system today is relying on migrant children, e.g. China, who pay partially exorbitant fees to allow them to study in the UK

- Homeless people were a problem 20 years ago just as much as today. Every developed country has a low one digit percentage of citizens who struggle to keep a job, their housing etc. Most of this problems are addiction related.

- By far the biggest part of your present and past migrants are people from the Commonwealth or your past colonies, not the EU.

- The UK is suffering until this day from the failure of numerous governments, starting with the Thatcher era, to convert the UK from a coal/steel/manufacturing nation to a modern service oriented country. Just research how little of that industry is left today which was feeding more than 2/3 your population at some point in the past, yet very little or not enough has been done to replace those losses. E.g. from dozens of British car manufacturers around WWII there is but a handful left today.

- I read today that the UK net contribution to the EU was 0,35EUR/week/citizen. Norway's is 0,44EUR/week/citizen. Your current government is favoring currently a Norway2.0 deal with the EU but haven't told anybody that contributions to the EU will still have to be made and will actually very likely increase as your decade long rebate will be canceled. To top it all off you won't have a say at all in how that money will be spent.

- The US told you months ago that they will sign first an agreement with the EU and you will be at the back of the queue. That a few Commonwealth countries, e.g. Canada, Australia, were welcoming new deals with the UK is to be expected.

- Your Brexit minister, Mr. Davis, proclaimed in his enthusiasm that the UK will sign new treaties worth 10x those of the EU, forgetting that it would be then 1.5x the total global GDP. I would be at least astonished/puzzled by such words and would wonder how is he going to achieve that.

- You don't have by far enough experts to negotiate new deals that quickly. In fact if the EU wants to play hardball you are not even allowed to start negotiations with other nations until you have actually left the EU. NO EU country can negotiate or sign commercial agreements or treaties with other countries as long as it is a member of the EU!

But you will be FREE. What that will mean at the end when all the dust is settled remains to be seen.

I chose personally a similar path some 8 years ago. Left a very well paid job in Germany because i wanted to be free. Today I earn about half of what i used to, but I am a much more relaxed and happier person as a freelancer. Hopefully, the UK will be on a similar path, although maybe without the monetary reductions.

Just my observations from a far distance.

 

[Matti]

yet at the same time ever increasing numbers of our own people are forced to live on the stre have even died through poverty. This has built up considerable anger, like a pressure cooker on a hot stove, and Brexit was the first opportunity this anger had a legitimate outlet that the politicians could not silence by saying "we can't even discuss this, it's politically incorrect". Unfortunately, it doesn't seem a win for Brexit has been enough, the repressed anger has been allowed to grow and fester for far too long. So long as people see our own people put out onto the streets whilst migrants are put up in hotels and fed three meals a day at government expense, this anger is not really going to subside.

Dear Vinyl,

You are always so analytic and fact driven when it comes to slots. You have a huge insight in all regarding licensing etc and I really appreciate your insights and knowledge

In this thread you are for me just giving your personal opinion regarding something not related to slots. In this thread however you are, to me, like a gambler that screams "RIGGED".

yet at the same time ever increasing numbers of our own people are forced to live on the stre have even died through poverty. This has built up considerable anger, like a pressure cooker on a hot stove, and Brexit was the first opportunity this anger had a legitimate outlet that the politicians could not silence by saying "we can't even discuss this, it's politically incorrect". Unfortunately, it doesn't seem a win for Brexit has been enough, the repressed anger has been allowed to grow and fester for far too long. So long as people see our own people put out onto the streets whilst migrants are put up in hotels and fed three meals a day at government expense, this anger is not really going to subside.

The thing you write above is like a populistic handbook. You are mixing a few facts with arbitrary information, and present the combination of theese as a fact. For me theese thing you mention are just things you have read, or heard, and choosen to believe be a fact because they fitted your own thoughts and feelings. They are not based on any research by independent organizations as far as I can tell.

So long as people see our own people put out onto the streets whilst migrants are put up in hotels and fed three meals a day at government expense, this anger is not really going to subside.

It is a qoute totally lacking facts. My guess is that you have read a couple of articles in newspapers and choosen to take that this is of course happening all over the UK for all migrants. I can assure you if it did there would be no hotell room available in the UK. Once again. I think, you choose to belive something without getting the facts because yu wanted to believe it.

Who are the "migrants". Would that be me if I moved to the UK? If not why am I different?

Looking forward to your reply!

 

[hedgehok]

Hi all,

I've been away travelling for a while. It have given me some time to further reflect on the result of the British referendum that now seems like ages ago

I don't know if this result in the end will be good or bad for the Brits, for EU, or for Europe as a continent, from an economical point of view. Personally that is not as important as the issue of how easy we humans forget.

The thing that's keep nagging me the last weeks is that I see the increasing intolarance between people, and nations, all over Europe. I see the nationalistic, populistic politians all over Europe increasing there popularity and blaming "foreigners" for unemployment, rape, etc.

Nationalism is growing again in Europe and I don't like it. For me it is ok with Nationalism in the World Cup, Olympics etc, but it has nothing to do in politics. (The same goes for religion.) I know what theese trend has led too in the past. I just wish that everyone remember this aswell.

Matti

Where is the thanks button? I second every word.

 

[goatwack]

I know I may not agree with everything said on this board but this surely takes the biscuit!

Here's me about to retire for the night and along come Amazon popping up in my inbox

 

[Harry_BKK]

I know I may not agree with everything said on this board but this surely takes the biscuit!

Here's me about to retire for the night and along come Amazon popping up in my inbox

There you go, the algorithm work as designed. Racism is presently a hotly discusses issue in the UK and BAM ...Amazon presents you the literature for it. Fantastic 21st century!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Quite disappointed with your post VWM, to be honest.

Blaming all trouble the UK is facing today to the slight NET increase in migrants is rather opportunistic.

- Social services suffered for decades from the decisions of the last few governments to cut public spending and to feed big corporations instead with massive tax breaks.

- The UK school system today is relying on migrant children, e.g. China, who pay partially exorbitant fees to allow them to study in the UK

- Homeless people were a problem 20 years ago just as much as today. Every developed country has a low one digit percentage of citizens who struggle to keep a job, their housing etc. Most of this problems are addiction related.

- By far the biggest part of your present and past migrants are people from the Commonwealth or your past colonies, not the EU.

- The UK is suffering until this day from the failure of numerous governments, starting with the Thatcher era, to convert the UK from a coal/steel/manufacturing nation to a modern service oriented country. Just research how little of that industry is left today which was feeding more than 2/3 your population at some point in the past, yet very little or not enough has been done to replace those losses. E.g. from dozens of British car manufacturers around WWII there is but a handful left today.

- I read today that the UK net contribution to the EU was 0,35EUR/week/citizen. Norway's is 0,44EUR/week/citizen. Your current government is favoring currently a Norway2.0 deal with the EU but haven't told anybody that contributions to the EU will still have to be made and will actually very likely increase as your decade long rebate will be canceled. To top it all off you won't have a say at all in how that money will be spent.

- The US told you months ago that they will sign first an agreement with the EU and you will be at the back of the queue. That a few Commonwealth countries, e.g. Canada, Australia, were welcoming new deals with the UK is to be expected.

- Your Brexit minister, Mr. Davis, proclaimed in his enthusiasm that the UK will sign new treaties worth 10x those of the EU, forgetting that it would be then 1.5x the total global GDP. I would be at least astonished/puzzled by such words and would wonder how is he going to achieve that.

- You don't have by far enough experts to negotiate new deals that quickly. In fact if the EU wants to play hardball you are not even allowed to start negotiations with other nations until you have actually left the EU. NO EU country can negotiate or sign commercial agreements or treaties with other countries as long as it is a member of the EU!

But you will be FREE. What that will mean at the end when all the dust is settled remains to be seen.

I chose personally a similar path some 8 years ago. Left a very well paid job in Germany because i wanted to be free. Today I earn about half of what i used to, but I am a much more relaxed and happier person as a freelancer. Hopefully, the UK will be on a similar path, although maybe without the monetary reductions.

Just my observations from a far distance.

It's not so much my view, but my view as to why so many people have begun to openly support the far right view that all the current problems can be solved very simply by the rapid removal of "excess population" as a means to bring the population down to a level at which the current provision of infrastructure and services can cope.

The very liberal views have also amplified this anger because they don't just say that we should all be equal, they say that migrants should take priority, and should be given "victim status" by default which means we must make changes to accommodate their beliefs and ways of life, as opposed to them having to accept that they need to adapt to living in a country with ways that might be very different to those they are used to. This occasionally results in a "bonkers" decision like banning Christmas decorations "because they might cause offence", whilst at the same time we are being told to be more tolerant towards those who hold their major festivities at times of the year where we would only see them as a disruption to the smooth running of everyday life. Often, we DON'T hear what happens shortly after, when the insanity gets slapped down by the local MP or the Education department, and then the story can be quoted by the right wing to promote their agenda.

The right wing groups always seem to be far more popular and powerful in those towns and cities that have seen the largest influx of migrants. In constituencies with a low level of migrants, they don't even bother to field candidates in elections.

The people of Dover are likely to be particularly angry because their local services have been completely swamped because anyone who makes it through the tunnel becomes the responsibility of Dover's local authority, and they are given no additional help from central government. The UKIP solution to this problem is "shut the borders" and of course Brexit. There are some far right views that say that the borders should be policed by the military, and as in a few other places in the world, anyone caught trying to cross illegally should simply be shot, as this would act as a severe deterrent to others and solve the problem by "brute force". This extreme solution might even come to pass if Trump becomes the next US president and decides to get really tough with the situation at the border with Mexico.

The only way people in the UK can see the truth behind migration is if the migrants all decide to leave now rather than sit out the uncertainty of Brexit negotiations before they know whether or not they can have a future staying. If enough decide to leave, it could cause severe disruptions to any employer reliant upon them because they will have no control on the rate of departure, and the assumption that migrants simply take British jobs will be tested. If it's true, then British workers will quickly fill the gap and customers won't really notice. However, if false, the disruption will lead to a loss of service in some sectors as there will be no Brits to fill the vacancies, and due to the uncertainty surrounding the Brexit negotiations, it won't be a quick fix of bringing in migrant labour.

As a distant observer, you actually have one big advantage, you are out of range of the Murdoch machine which controls vast swathes of the UK media, often via opaque and complex company structures that make it look like we are getting several different and independent views on a matter, when we are really getting 6 slightly differing sets of coverage from Murdoch controlled media.

Brexit should have been the end of the fight for all those who thought that out of control migration was the root cause of all the problems, so something else is driving the sudden rise in right wing support and hate attacks against migrants who are already here. They should be celebrating that in about 2 years time it will be very different, no more preferential migration from the EU to "steal jobs", and the UK in full control of whether or not it can deport other classes of migrant without having to worry about being told "No" by Brussels or the European courts.

We are now being sold an incredibly bright future post EU by the media, a very sharp U turn from the doom and gloom stories of only a month ago. Supposedly, so many countries are battering a path to the UK for trade deals that the UK could be "the centre of a free trade zone 10 times the size of the EU". This has to be BS, it has taken decades for the EU to grow it's free trade zone, so the prospect that one 10 times the size can be cobbled together in this parliament beggars belief.

Of course, come 2020, the Tories will be struggling to explain why they should get another term despite having failed to deliver on their promise of a bright future outside the EU. The migration figures post EU will also be very interesting, the promise of mere "tens of thousands net per year" has been resurrected.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Dear Vinyl,

You are always so analytic and fact driven when it comes to slots. You have a huge insight in all regarding licensing etc and I really appreciate your insights and knowledge

In this thread you are for me just giving your personal opinion regarding something not related to slots. In this thread however you are, to me, like a gambler that screams "RIGGED".



The thing you write above is like a populistic handbook. You are mixing a few facts with arbitrary information, and present the combination of theese as a fact. For me theese thing you mention are just things you have read, or heard, and choosen to believe be a fact because they fitted your own thoughts and feelings. They are not based on any research by independent organizations as far as I can tell.



It is a qoute totally lacking facts. My guess is that you have read a couple of articles in newspapers and choosen to take that this is of course happening all over the UK for all migrants. I can assure you if it did there would be no hotell room available in the UK. Once again. I think, you choose to belive something without getting the facts because yu wanted to believe it.

Who are the "migrants". Would that be me if I moved to the UK? If not why am I different?

Looking forward to your reply!

I have practical first hand experience.

My niece can't get housing because "we are full". However, if a migrant crops up in Dover, they CANNOT simply be told to "look after yourself" and expected to wander the streets. They would be put into a hotel. It would be the cheapest available, but sometimes the cheapest available ends up being what many would consider a "good hotel". The government will bend over backwards when it comes to migrants, not daring to break any of the international rules on basic rights. However, this does not apply to our own. We can have ALL our money cut for months at a time, not even enough to buy a loaf of bread is allowed, yet this is not a breach of international human rights rules, and the government get away with this with impunity whilst the international bodies that are so hot on breaches of human rights when countries deal with migrants look the other way. My niece had her money cut for 3 months solid, surviving entirely on my slot and tournament winnings (she still is, she often doesn't have the money to buy formula for her twins, but the authorities don't see this as a particular concern, they can wait a few days). When things get THIS bad for people at the bottom, you risk igniting an uncontrollable anger that could get out of control. This is now what's beginning in parts of the UK, and it's likely to spread unless something is done to address the underlying issues.

For the first time this year, I spotted a homeless person camping in the doorway of an empty shop in our town centre. It's not something that has been a problem here before, although we do have the odd big issue seller. To me, this represents a worsening of the problem.

These are all things I have seen and experienced myself, not something I have read in one of Murdoch's rags. The reports I have read are also indicating a worsening of the problem. We have had homeless people for decades, but in some places it has reached crisis level, and local authorities are using draconian measures against the homeless, rather than helping them. They cannot really help, their housing is full and so are all the hostels, which is why they have spilled out into full view. They either don't have the budget hotels, or they are all full of people on their housing list "in temporary accommodation".

House building, the obvious solution to the crisis, hasn't taken place in the required quantities, hence the only other solution is to reduce demand, which is where migrants become the focus of attention. Despite the fact that we are constantly being told that migrants are pumping more money in to the economy than they take out, the economy is responding to this inflow in a very contra-intuitive way. Housebuilding, already insufficient, has FALLEN in recent years. Essential services are becoming overloaded, yet there is supposedly MORE money sloshing about in the economy due to more people being here. Since we are not seeing the benefit of this extra money, it's hardly surprising that this is being dismissed as a positive argument for migration. This leads to the view that if essential services never see the extra money, things can only get better if there is less migration, and the loss of the additional money is irrelevant because it's never been used to fund front line services in the first place.

The one thing that will be lost is "economic growth", because the only way to achieve this long term is a steady increase in the working population. Instead, we could have a stable non-growth economy where we consume less and lead a slower, simpler life. This could end up making us happier, even though we would be poorer and would not be able to have all the latest gadgets and a new car every 3 years. If we are happier, we would also be less likely to get angry over things, and therefore movements that tap into such anger will lose support.

The politicians seem to think that this model of steady economic growth can go on forever, and it's the ideal to strive for. Unfortunately it can't, the planet can only support so many of us, and as we are already relying on ever more advanced methods of food production just to feed the wealthier parts of the population, we are becoming increasingly vulnerable to a global famine event that could be triggered by a relatively localised event, such as two years in succession of severe crop failure in somewhere like the US, which can happen despite all the current advances in agriculture.

 

[Harry_BKK]

VWM, understand your view. Every medal has two sides.

Remove all people with migrant history/background going back just 2 generations and the UK would lose 1/2 - 2/3 of its population. The newly arrived ones are by far a minority in that number.

The current influx, as it is called, of migrants has just highlighted the problems the UK was able to cover up for decades. Each and every government without exception has cut public spending, which included social services, public housing, education, infrastructure etc.

Unfortunately, your niece has become a perfect example of that policy (sorry if that sounds awful).

Fact is that is is NOT the EU's or the migrant's fault that the UK is in this current state but exactly this was proclaimed by the main LEAVE campaigners, giving the people the impression that just by ticking YES on the vote ticket all will turn into gold.

And then going totally into overdrive telling the public that they will negotiate trade deals 10x bigger of those of the EU is just the icing on the huge cake of lies that has been served to the English citizens in the past months.

I read today that the UK has only 40, in words FORTY, experts who are deemed capable enough to set-up and negotiate today's hugely complex free trade deals. Considering that, you are either looking at at least a decade to sign deals with the most important countries or hastily signed ones which will not be to the benefit of the UK. May all commercial gods and other benevolences be with those 40.

But my example is proof that you can me happier and more relaxed with less income and social security.

 

[vinylweatherman]

VWM, understand your view. Every medal has two sides.

Remove all people with migrant history/background going back just 2 generations and the UK would lose 1/2 - 2/3 of its population. The newly arrived ones are by far a minority in that number.

The current influx, as it is called, of migrants has just highlighted the problems the UK was able to cover up for decades. Each and every government without exception has cut public spending, which included social services, public housing, education, infrastructure etc.

Unfortunately, your niece has become a perfect example of that policy (sorry if that sounds awful).

Fact is that is is NOT the EU's or the migrant's fault that the UK is in this current state but exactly this was proclaimed by the main LEAVE campaigners, giving the people the impression that just by ticking YES on the vote ticket all will turn into gold.

And then going totally into overdrive telling the public that they will negotiate trade deals 10x bigger of those of the EU is just the icing on the huge cake of lies that has been served to the English citizens in the past months.

I read today that the UK has only 40, in words FORTY, experts who are deemed capable enough to set-up and negotiate today's hugely complex free trade deals. Considering that, you are either looking at at least a decade to sign deals with the most important countries or hastily signed ones which will not be to the benefit of the UK. May all commercial gods and other benevolences be with those 40.

But my example is proof that you can me happier and more relaxed with less income and social security.

To a point maybe, but in the UK a vast portion of income is swallowed up by fixed costs, and not meeting these can land you in a great deal of trouble. She has to find £800 a month for a 2 bedroom flat, and this is purely for the container, everything else, water, heat, power etc is extra. There is also a fixed bill to pay to the local council and this is one of the few debts that if unpaid, can ultimately lead to imprisonment, although this is mostly a way to put the fear into the poor into paying this first even if they can't afford it.

With such high fixed costs for the basics, it's impossible to live a relaxed life on a low income, you are constantly put under the extreme stress of deciding between the rent and the children. This generates fertile ground for right wing seeds to flourish, and flourish they have. My niece is strongly anti-EU, and someone else I know is pretty far to the right of her, approving of some of the migrant control policies of groups like BNP and Britain First. This bucks the reported trend of the young generally being in favour of the EU, and even accusing the older generation of "stealing their opportunities" by pushing the UK into an exit.

The most recent response from the last PM was that even more cuts were on the way, which is the complete opposite of what is needed. The Brexit camp gleefully used this by arguing that the main reason the UK is this broke is the billions we send to the EU each year, and that if we left, all that money could be used to support the services where the cuts were doing the most damage.

There ARE ways to exit the rat race in the UK. Despite the severe pressures and long waiting lists in some areas, there are other areas where housing is simply sat there rotting away because there are not enough people to live in them. What stops a sensible migration from the overcrowded places to these underpopulated places is economic policy. The houses sit empty because they are in those regions that were once the home of the heavy industries of steel, coal, shipbuilding, textiles, etc. The south is the home of the "service industry", and some "light industry". Unfortunately, if we want to buy food and heat our homes, we need a job, and they don't have those in the decaying areas, hence the empty and decaying houses.

It is an obvious opportunity, but it seems under exploited, although I am looking into it for myself.

 

[geordiecolin]

Housing is a very big issue for many folk that do not have the means to buy. In the area that I live, 20 years ago those who divorced and had children where helped by the local council by them finding a council house so that the children could visit and stay over. When I divorced I was not in a position to re-buy with maintenance payments and the cost of private rental et al yet the local council told me to do one as I was not a priority and I had made myself homeless. At the same time folk who had never paid into the uk system,or even the European system where given housing.
I am no racist and totally do not blame anyone making the most of their lives by moving to find a better life. It is up to the government/s to ensure that they achieve a balance between immigration and what is in the best interests of the people they serve and housing.
When I needed assistance the most this country totally let me down.

 

[dunover]

Sums it up:

 

[vinylweatherman]

View attachment 69489

That looks like Britain First material. They are playing on fear with snappy soundbites rather than giving a detailed argument. Merkel made the same economic mistake Cameron made, but on a far bigger scale. It began the same way, people were not having enough children, and the old were living much longer. The worry was that a dwindling workforce would be having to support a growing population of pensioners. The solution was to promote growth by opening the doors to as many migrants as possible and hoping that this would kick start economic growth. Unfortunately, no real consideration was given to the basics, like where would they live, where would they find a doctor, where would they send their kids to school. The result was localised severe overcrowding, with cases of local people being kicked out of their homes, doctors, even school, purely to make way for newly arrived migrants that had nowhere to go. The obvious source of anger derives from the obvious question as to why should the newcomer be given somewhere at the expense of the locals who had lived there all their lives. If the locals were told to "jog on" and use their own initiative to find somewhere else, why not the migrants being the ones to do this, leaving the locals alone where they were already.

Merkel is now regretting the decision as it has not only lead to chaos, it has fuelled the rise of the far right. Whilst she may not regret the basic idea of bringing in migrant workers to supply the labour force needed, she probably wishes it had been done differently, and in a controlled manner such that social unrest was kept to a minimum.

High profile incidents like the one in Cologne really put the knife in as far as the way migrants were being viewed. It beggars belief that they would behave in this way when there were already increasing calls for the flow to be stopped due to pressures being placed on local services. This changed the view of migrants from merely a potential burden on local resources to a dangerous group of people to be allowed loose in the country. Since that incident, many others have been reported, some of which dated from before the Cologne incident, but that only became international news after it.

Basic common sense should be that a newcomer does their best NOT to upset the locals, especially where their welcome is beginning to wear out. In some parts of Europe, this welcome has well and truly been worn out, and we have seen razor wire fences going up in some countries even before the UK was on the path to Brexit.

 

[Harry_BKK]

That looks like Britain First material. They are playing on fear with snappy soundbites rather than giving a detailed argument. Merkel made the same economic mistake Cameron made, but on a far bigger scale. It began the same way, people were not having enough children, and the old were living much longer. The worry was that a dwindling workforce would be having to support a growing population of pensioners. The solution was to promote growth by opening the doors to as many migrants as possible and hoping that this would kick start economic growth. Unfortunately, no real consideration was given to the basics, like where would they live, where would they find a doctor, where would they send their kids to school. The result was localised severe overcrowding, with cases of local people being kicked out of their homes, doctors, even school, purely to make way for newly arrived migrants that had nowhere to go. The obvious source of anger derives from the obvious question as to why should the newcomer be given somewhere at the expense of the locals who had lived there all their lives. If the locals were told to "jog on" and use their own initiative to find somewhere else, why not the migrants being the ones to do this, leaving the locals alone where they were already.

Merkel is now regretting the decision as it has not only lead to chaos, it has fuelled the rise of the far right. Whilst she may not regret the basic idea of bringing in migrant workers to supply the labour force needed, she probably wishes it had been done differently, and in a controlled manner such that social unrest was kept to a minimum.

High profile incidents like the one in Cologne really put the knife in as far as the way migrants were being viewed. It beggars belief that they would behave in this way when there were already increasing calls for the flow to be stopped due to pressures being placed on local services. This changed the view of migrants from merely a potential burden on local resources to a dangerous group of people to be allowed loose in the country. Since that incident, many others have been reported, some of which dated from before the Cologne incident, but that only became international news after it.

Basic common sense should be that a newcomer does their best NOT to upset the locals, especially where their welcome is beginning to wear out. In some parts of Europe, this welcome has well and truly been worn out, and we have seen razor wire fences going up in some countries even before the UK was on the path to Brexit.

You both have gone now into overdrive.

- show me the facts that Merkel made a bigger mistake than Cameron
- show me the facts that there is chaos in Germany
- show me the facts that the far right has risen more than just few local seats in the regional elections

- facts is the the total number of rapes & sexual harrasment/year has not risen at all in Germany.
- fact is crime has not risen either.
- fact is that migrants/refugees are not more involved in crimes than others, be it Germans or other foreigners in Germany

One of the facts why the UK is in the current state is clearly shown on this graph. If you have some understanding of economics you will know it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If Merkel hasn't screwed up, why is she so worried about her position? Germany is in better economic shape than the UK, so why have some regions not been able to cope with the influx without stirring up resentment amongst the locals?

It's no good telling people that they shouldn't be angry, or should be angry at someone else, they are not going to listen to logic IF they are that angry. What is needed is visible signs that the government has full control of whatever situation has arisen.

Politicians are in denial. Official stats here are saying there has been no post Brexit increase in hate crimes against the migrant community, but it's the migrant community itself that is saying they have experienced a sharp increase in such incidents, and are now worried about the future. The police in Southampton, where there is a significant migrant community, have stated that there has been a slight DECREASE in hate crimes against the migrant community, yet the migrant community there are worried about their future, and have been reporting incidents of intolerance, including one who said she was told "pack your bags and go home".

Are the migrants just making it all up, or are the government trying to cover up the fact that a nasty undercurrent of intolerance is emerging into the daylight.

 

[dunover]

You both have gone now into overdrive.

- show me the facts that Merkel made a bigger mistake than Cameron
- show me the facts that there is chaos in Germany
- show me the facts that the far right has risen more than just few local seats in the regional elections

- facts is the the total number of rapes & sexual harrasment/year has not risen at all in Germany.
- fact is crime has not risen either.
- fact is that migrants/refugees are not more involved in crimes than others, be it Germans or other foreigners in Germany

One of the facts why the UK is in the current state is clearly shown on this graph. If you have some understanding of economics you will know it.

View attachment 69497

Love it! You just shot yourself in the foot with that one! Yes, I studied economics and yes, balance of payments is in deficit. It's in surplus in invisible goods and services and a big deficit in visibles (manufactured items/commodities). And importing cheap labour is a massive contribution to the invisible negative factors. If we import 1 million workers who decide to send a substantial amount of that money 'home' and it's not spent in our domestic market it adds to our overall BOP deficit.
Whilst I accept we are a post-industrial economy and as a result are going to have a permanent BOP deficit unlike Germany, I have to laugh that you post this chart as a reason then criticize the UK voters for wanting seriously limit migration, which actually makes the chart worse!!
And ask yourself how all the extra public sector workers necessary for our increasing population are paid for? Yes, more borrowing and a bigger deficit.

Add to this the pressure on space and quality of life and effects on social cohesion (which Vinyl points out in Germany and of which the leftist media we have are very reluctant to report much of the time) and you just MIGHT be getting why we in the UK voted AUS! OUT! AU REVOIR! ADIOS! CIAO!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Love it! You just shot yourself in the foot with that one! Yes, I studied economics and yes, balance of payments is in deficit. It's in surplus in invisible goods and services and a big deficit in visibles (manufactured items/commodities). And importing cheap labour is a massive contribution to the invisible negative factors. If we import 1 million workers who decide to send a substantial amount of that money 'home' and it's not spent in our domestic market it adds to our overall BOP deficit.
Whilst I accept we are a post-industrial economy and as a result are going to have a permanent BOP deficit unlike Germany, I have to laugh that you post this chart as a reason then criticize the UK voters for wanting seriously limit migration, which actually makes the chart worse!!
And ask yourself how all the extra public sector workers necessary for our increasing population are paid for? Yes, more borrowing and a bigger deficit.

Add to this the pressure on space and quality of life and effects on social cohesion (which Vinyl points out in Germany and of which the leftist media we have are very reluctant to report much of the time) and you just MIGHT be getting why we in the UK voted AUS! OUT! AU REVOIR! ADIOS! CIAO!

Not so sure Dunover.

The UK has had a deficit for the best part of the last 3 decades, coinciding with the fall of many industries in the UK and that far before any of the latest migrant "mumbo jumbo" started. It shows clearly that the governments never managed to keep their election campaign promises and to steer the country properly to replace those losses with other industries/services. The result is cutbacks on social services, increased taxes etc.

Your biggest share of migrants are from the Commonwealth and your past colonies, who have every right to be in the UK. Most came a long time ago and have been sending money home ever since, hence the monetary "export" cannot be the sole reason for the ever increasing deficit.

I am not trying here to say other countries have done it so much better. I merely want to point out that the rather small NET migrant increase from the EU is NOT THE CAUSE of your problems. It is surely on the surface as it gets splattered all over the media and people can have their scapegoat but if you look at the facts those problems were on the rise already in the mid-80's.

Repeating now an example i mentioned before. A former UK colleague waited in 2000 IIRC, could be 1999, 3 years to have hip replacement surgery done by the NHS. 3 bloody painful years for him and that was way before any of this migrant crisis talk started.