Official Streamers, questions for an investigation?

maxd

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Ok, so, one of the next topics for my "talk to the industry" series of articles is going to be on the topic of streamers.

So far I've got two casino managers who've used streamers lined up to answer for whatever questions we put to them. Their responses will be anonymized so they'll be at liberty to speak freely.

If you've got any questions you'd like answered on this topic please post them below. As ever no promises but if it's a good question we'll almost certainly be able to get some inside info on it.

Depending on the questions we should be able to get other industry people involved as well. All depends on you guys, your questions will drive the process.

edit: minor tweak on my original post (in blue). Didn't want to make it seem that we were forcing our sources to answer anything they were not comfortable with. Not the case at all, they can answer or ignore any question as it suits them.
 
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interlog

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Here are my 3 questions please.

(1) With bet size increasing on a yearly basis (£1 spins used to be the norm in the "good old day") does allowing streamers to bet a considerable amount of money each stream not go against responsible gambling, something a casino is to promote?
(2) Following on from this, is it not unsurprising when you see streamers have 1 million+ balances it is debatable whether such funds are genuine and are casinos therefore aiding and abetting fooling the viewers?
(3) Giving streamers unlimited bonuses and sometimes favorable conditions such as betting with higher stakes than usually allowed whilst wagering, it makes the gambling for streamers close to EV+. Are there therefore withdrawal restrictions attached to such deals?
 

Casinomeister

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Here is one: do you feel it is responsible on the casino's part to enable streamers betting more than realistic amounts? The ass with the hat bets EUR100 a spin. That ought to be criminalized if it's enticing Joe Blow player to do the same.
 
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incrediblestuff

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Hey Max, great you're getting some inside info on this! There have been plenty of 'revelations' since streaming became a 'thing' but i would love some confirmation from sources you deem trustworthy.

Just dishing out some of the main questions here and elsewhere:

What kind of deals do Casino's offer Streamers aside from the +EV match up bonuses? And i mean above board, and what they seen/heard below board as well.

Can they confirm fake money/playmoney deals, and if so, how dependant is that on the software used (provider) and the jurisdictions the streamer or casino falls under?

How do the numbers compare - over the past years - for top regular affiliates vs streamer affiliates?

Have providers, aside from offering lower RTP versions (regardless of where the request came from) had a hand in 'creating' sites, channels and/or both to 'farm' userdata? (thinking Reelzone, now gone, and Socialtournaments for the obvious ones, but also a lot of streamers, and sites such as Roobet)

How do the people you're interviewing feel about the whole matter?

That's all i can think of for now, will add more if i think of something else!

Cheers
 
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interlog

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Here is one: do you feel it is responsible on the casino's part to enable streamers betting more than realistic amounts? The ass with the hat bets EUR100 a spin. That ought to be criminalized if it's enticing Joe Blow player to do the same.

That was yesteryear..... he was doing EUR400 spins yesterday!!! Mind he had a EUR 1.2million balance and chat went shit crazy when he won EUR12,000 of that EUR400 spin - I mean a shitty 30x and they went bat crazy!
 

slotmaster

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I am the same as incredible stuff in wanting to know what they think of streaming as a whole? Since many years ago I went to every casino on this forum and nobody would not do anything regarding streaming and look where we are now. If only people and companies would listen to me,lol.
 

maxd

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EXCELLENT questions! Many thanks all ... and keep it coming. If there is enough material -- and it certainly looks like there will be -- then we can do a two-parter, or whatever is required.

As to the industry people I should say a few words. I am guaranteeing these people absolute anonymity in order to allow them to speak as freely as they care to. They won't have accounts here at CM, they won't be reachable and I won't divulge their identity or workplace to anyone -- other than Bryan -- under any circumstances. In other words ask whatever you like. They may not answer a given question but if you want a chance at solid, "deepthroat" level info this is likely to be your best shot.
 

colinsunderland

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Can you tell us which jurisdiction they are working in without giving away which casino? For example, my questions would be different for managers under the UKGC license than Curacao. For example, most streamers promoting UK casinos do so at sensible (ish) stakes, maybe £10-20 for the high rollers, which isn't impossible to do for someone earning alot so doesn't automatically mean they are playing with completely fake money (although high value bonuses with no limits is likely). However I can point to around a dozen youtubers/streamers without even searching (look at Foss for example) doing $30k bonus buys who use places like Stake and other Curacao casinos (all on pragmatic play too, even though they don't pay them apparently), where the money is clearly fake. No streamer can possibly sustain $300-400 spins and $30000 bonus buys, unless they were extremely rich to start with, which I suppose is possible for one or two, but no chance for all.
 

dunover

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You can always tell a 'straight' streamer. They will play at different casinos in cycle, using their own funds earned from affiliation and may or may not use a standard match bonus offered by the casino. The remuneration they get is from sign-ups for which they encourage viewers to visit their website and earn them commission. You tend to exhaust these sign-ups for any particular casino after a week or so, so they switch in order to maintain earnings.

If you see affiliate streamers exclusively playing at any one casino, then you can be sure there's some kind of alternative reward there not relating only to recruiting players, for the reason above. This could be bonus funds with limited cash-outs, simple fixed-fee sponsorship simply to play there which could well be using bonus/demo funds in order to guarantee the streamer earnings. The last alternative would be a small streamer deposit contribution and large bonuses normal players wouldn't be awarded, maybe balanced against the fixed fee if they win. Whichever, they don't do it for nothing.

As an affiliate that used to market on YT before they banned it all, I am telling you that promoting one single casino would never pay if you were solely relying on affiliate sign-ups, due to the diminishing returns, even if you do increase your subscribers. Call it 'NDP fatigue'.
This is how I know the Tw*t in the Hat (thanks @interlog :) ) and a few those examples mentioned above are simply unrealistic, unsustainable for both streamer and casino if it were straight, real money coming from the streamer's pocket. Bonuses or not.

I know industry professionals, long-time prosperous affiliates whose earnings would make most of us green with envy and if they spent every penny of what they made, plus more, they would never be able to play as those silly streaming channels represent to us. If you recall @ChopleyIOM worked out the cost of this kind of play over a year with the house edge of 4% and it was catastrophic. Unless you are James Dyson or Elon Musk, forget it.
 

dunover

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Another thing, posting direct casino affiliate links is NOT permitted by YT at all, they breach safe and community guidelines. You can of course, put a link to your own website, that's your right as a creator, as any marketing is separated from YT itself. You must also make it clear that your content is sponsored, if that applies.

I think a lot of these 'new' streamers are associated judging by their lack of adherence to the YT rules and similar links being used.

If you see direct gambling affiliate links under videos or pinned by the channel owner in the comments (see image) REPORT them using the tools under the video, or report the channel. There is no excuse - once is a strike, twice a final warning/strike and third time bye-bye channel.

In the image, the bottom 3 are DIRECT affiliate links. And there's lots of channels doing this. I thought this type of thing had stopped in the big purge 2-3 years ago when numerous channels were pulled/suspended, including mine and letsgiveitaspin etc. So we adapted to the new YT rules, seems like many are still ignoring them though. While this carries on, naturally you will be seeing new rogue streaming channels almost daily.

YT-violations.jpg
 

colinsunderland

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Here is one: do you feel it is responsible on the casino's part to enable streamers betting more than realistic amounts? The ass with the hat bets EUR100 a spin. That ought to be criminalized if it's enticing Joe Blow player to do the same.
Here's a few of the channels I mentioned in my earlier post, notice they are all almost exclusively Pragmatic Play slots. All doing $10000-$30000 bonus buys

youtube . com/c/ProdigyDDK/videos
youtube . com/c/Fossy/videos
youtube . com/c/WatchGamesTV/videos
youtube . com/c/Drewy/videos
youtube . com/c/TCKEntertainment/videos
youtube . com/c/AyeZee/videos
youtube . com/c/XposedTwitch/videos
youtube . com/c/JuicyFruityyy/videos
 

Wynnalot

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If Pragmatic Play were really concerned about the integrity of their games and commitment to Responsible Gaming, they would firstly restrict the ridiculous size of bonus buys you can make and secondly make representations to the Casinos who host such obvious fake streamers. Instead we get these mealy mouthed posts saying absolutely nothing. Of course this is not just Pragmatic, but there's seems to be the slot of choice for the fakes.
 

flyerskyangle

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With nowadays’ lower RTP ,especially Pragmatic Play games they should be shame,but they still pay streamers promote their “hot games” 100 euros spin and hit 5000x...
Why they can do this!
 

Mouse75

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HI @maxd great post. So for me...

1) Are your conditions favourable so that you expect to make money gambling, or is your profit derived from affiliation and / or casino payouts?
2) If the 1st.... do you honestly think this is responsible and that you should be seeking affiliation money when gambling is EV- and you are in effect taking something for nothing from your affiliates?
3) Have you ever been guilty of promoting a site that you know has rogue or suspect activities?
4) Why the OTT fake reactions when you win 100 - 300 x on something? This is normal slot play. Although i do understand for 1000 x plus hits.
5) Over the last 24 months have your average weekly profits - be from wins or payments - increased or decreased?
6) Do you make more than the average income for your particular country of residence?

Thats all for the mo....
 

slotmaster

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HI @maxd great post. So for me...

1) Are your conditions favourable so that you expect to make money gambling, or is your profit derived from affiliation and / or casino payouts?
2) If the 1st.... do you honestly think this is responsible and that you should be seeking affiliation money when gambling is EV- and you are in effect taking something for nothing from your affiliates?
3) Have you ever been guilty of promoting a site that you know has rogue or suspect activities?
4) Why the OTT fake reactions when you win 100 - 300 x on something? This is normal slot play. Although i do understand for 1000 x plus hits.
5) Over the last 24 months have your average weekly profits - be from wins or payments - increased or decreased?
6) Do you make more than the average income for your particular country of residence?

Thats all for the mo....
It is not max answering questions, it is 2 casino's. :)
 

maxd

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Can you tell us which jurisdiction they are working in without giving away which casino? ...
As I mentioned earlier, I will talk to whomever is appropriate to answer a given question. We know A LOT of industry peole, I'm fairly confident that we can reach out to someone suitable for pretty much whatever we need. One exception might be people __within__ a given licensing jurisdiction's administration, there our options are unfortunately limited.

Specific to your question I forsee no problem finding a casino manager to talk to within pretty much any jurisdiction. Really obscure ones like the Philippines, for example, might be a little tricky because there are so few licensees.

Or to answer another way: no, I won't be sharing their licensing jurisdictions. Like I said, absolute anonymity, and that's not negotiable. If it's a question specific to their jurisdiction then I'll leave it to them whether they wish to reveal that about themselves by answering the question, or not.
 

maxd

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HI @maxd great post. So for me...

1) Are your conditions favourable ...
Ok, these are questions specific to a streamer as opposed to industry people who use streamers. So far we don't have a streamer lined up. I'll see what I can do but no promises.
 

geordiecolin

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Streamers,providers and casinos are coming in for more and more criticism for their practices. If they could would they like to have an industry wide reset of how streaming works? If so how could it be done and if not how do they see live streaming progressing/regressing going forward?
 

The Viking

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well firstly great stuff Max
but i can not see them answer questions about weather streamers are using fake money, capped money etc
and that it is what i reckon most of us would like an answer to.
as the word would spread and they would lose a lot of cash from the poor gamblers through Affliates etc ,that think all this is good and fair.
 

maxd

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... but i can not see them answer questions about weather streamers are using fake money, capped money etc ...
Well, I've had preliminary discussions with some people who can answer these types of questions and there is confirmation from them that streamer play is (often) not regular play. I'll save the details for the article + poll but suffice it for now for me to say your expectations will be (and already have) proven wrong.
 
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