Casinos Switching to Kahnawake and Alderney Licenses: Are They a Rubber Stamp?

[Takemoney201]

Hey everyone,

I've noticed a trend recently where many online casinos are switching their licenses to ones under the Kahnawake Gaming Commission and the Alderney Gambling Control Commission. While these might seem like reputable jurisdictions on the surface, there's growing concern in the community about the effectiveness of these licenses in holding casinos accountable.

Has anyone had any experience dealing with these commissions? It's puzzling because despite being located in nominally reputable countries, there's a perception that these commissions might not be as stringent as they claim to be. Instead, there's worry that they might just rubber-stamp complaints and let casinos off the hook far too easily.

What's particularly alarming is the apparent ease with which casinos are moving from Malta to these commissions, often while being set up in Cyprus. It begs the question: Are these commissions lowering their requirements for casinos to be added to their roster?

For those of us concerned about the integrity of online gambling and the accountability of these operators, it's crucial to understand how we can take legal action against them if needed. But with casinos operating under these new licenses, it's becoming increasingly complex. Which legal territory would be the most effective for filing a lawsuit against these casinos? And how can we ensure that they're held responsible for any wrongdoing?

 

[jasonuk]

It's worth mentioning that Kahnawake and Alderney both have a lengthy history (decades at this point) of offering licenses, and at least historically had a solid reputation.

In the case of Kahnawake, they do ADR in-house and

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. Of the 721 complaints received for 2023, 292 were not accepted (e.g. missing information, out of scope), 325 were closed or dismissed, 102 were upheld in whole or part and 2 were in progress.

Alderney also do ADR in-house, although I couldn't find any statistics. I would say they have one of the strongest policies when it comes to ADR because they will provide mediation in the first instance, then a formal investigation, and as a final step can offer a public hearing.

Contrast with the UKGC where ADR is paid for by the casinos (and so there is an unhealthy relationship), and the next stage would be legal action as the regulator takes no direct interest in player complaints. Given their recurring "asleep at the wheel" conduct in recent years, I imagine there would be a fair shout for the UKGC to be downgraded to a second tier jurisdiction.



I would also clarify that a "rubber stamp" jurisdiction is much worse than you suggest - they are one that takes little to no interest in their licensees at all beyond taking the money. No player complaints, no game auditing, no standards, no nothing...

With the fallout from Curacao, we're starting to see a resurgent wave of these - such as Anjouan, Costa Rica and Panama. These are often framed as business licenses, you pay your licensee fee, you pay your taxes, and they'll leave you alone. Bent games? Don't care... Defrauded a player? Don't care

"Rubber stamp" jurisdictions are a haven for crooks, and should be avoided like the plague...

 

[The Dude]

Kahnawake is one of the tightest run ship when it comes to licencing. We have been in direct contact and have advised them for over two decades. They were there before Malta, before the UKGC got involved with the industry, and they were a poster child of how to properly license and relegate. They are truly player focused unlike all of the rest of the licensing jurisdictions. The UKGC assumes anyone who spends more that £100 per month is a problem gambler and won't deal with player issues - mainly because of their ineptitude from the very beginning. Malta was great at first, but after a couple of years turned into a disaster when it came to dealing with player complaints.

The bottom line is that Kahnawake is one of the best licensing jurisdictions. They are hands on with their operators - always has been.

Kahnawake Gaming Commission

 

[Takemoney201]

It's interesting to hear your positive perspective on Kahnawake's licensing practices. It seems they prioritize player protection and are actively involved with their operators, which is certainly commendable.

However, your mention of the importance of knowing where the head offices of these casinos are located raises an intriguing point. While Kahnawake may have strict licensing standards, it's crucial to consider the practical aspects of enforcement and accountability. If a casino is licensed in Kahnawake but operates from a different jurisdiction where assets are held, pursuing legal action could be challenging.

So, to ensure effective recourse for players, wouldn't it be prudent to not only focus on the reputation of the licensing jurisdiction but also on the physical location and financial structure of the casino operators? After all, the ability to enforce regulations and obtain compensation may ultimately depend on these factors.

 

[jasonuk]

That's a very different question to your opening statement though - given it applies to any remote jurisidiction.

I would generally split it into four phases:

• The fairness of the operator - will they be pro-active in dealing with mistakes, do they have reasonable terms and conditions, do they have good lines of communication;
• The in-house complaints procedure - if one exists, will it be escalated to a manager or specialist team, is there any external oversight or review;
• The external complaints procedure - who handles it, is there a cost for doing so, how reputable is the "ADR" (there's not much point having one if they ignore the evidence and always side with the casino);
• The legal procedure - where is the contract enforced, how easy it is to file a case, what costs are involved (with a particular concern if they can be uncapped).

I agree that knowing the pieces of the puzzle are important for any dispute resolution - for example there was a site recently that was being actively promoted by affiliates as MGA-licensed, they actually held a MGA license, but they weren't using it and all play was routed to Curacao.

So players thought they were signing up for an MGA-licensed casino, didn't read the terms properly, and when things went wrong got the bad news that they were playing on a Curacao site - and instead of having potentially three paths open to them (in-house, ADR, legal) they had one (in-house) who ignored them.

 

[Takemoney201]

Kahnawake is one of the tightest run ship when it comes to licencing. We have been in direct contact and have advised them for over two decades. They were there before Malta, before the UKGC got involved with the industry, and they were a poster child of how to properly license and relegate. They are truly player focused unlike all of the rest of the licensing jurisdictions. The UKGC assumes anyone who spends more that £100 per month is a problem gambler and won't deal with player issues - mainly because of their ineptitude from the very beginning. Malta was great at first, but after a couple of years turned into a disaster when it came to dealing with player complaints.

The bottom line is that Kahnawake is one of the best licensing jurisdictions. They are hands on with their operators - always has been.

Kahnawake Gaming Commission

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion surrounding the complexities of online casino licensing, especially the recent scrutiny directed at Kahnawake's regulatory framework. While acknowledging Kahnawake's longstanding presence and its purported player-centric approach, it's imperative to address valid concerns regarding specific policies and their enforcement.

Skepticism regarding the oversight of certain operators under Kahnawake's jurisdiction is understandable. Allegations against entities like the OLD Gammix group and the Tech Solutions group raise questions about the stringency of licensing standards and the effectiveness of regulatory oversight.

The notion that "suspecting a player is doing something is no real proof" strikes at the heart of fairness and due process.

I am quoting another forum ( not sure if that is allowed) The quoted term "If a customer or group of customers is SUSPECTED of abusing a promotion, Casino reserves the right to void the bonus and any winnings" This was a outcome of a complaint with the commission.

Given these concerns, it's crucial for Kahnawake and other regulatory bodies to uphold the highest standards of transparency, accountability, and player protection.

 

[Jett007]

Kahnawake is one of the tightest run ship when it comes to licencing. We have been in direct contact and have advised them for over two decades. They were there before Malta, before the UKGC got involved with the industry, and they were a poster child of how to properly license and relegate. They are truly player focused unlike all of the rest of the licensing jurisdictions. The UKGC assumes anyone who spends more that £100 per month is a problem gambler and won't deal with player issues - mainly because of their ineptitude from the very beginning. Malta was great at first, but after a couple of years turned into a disaster when it came to dealing with player complaints.

The bottom line is that Kahnawake is one of the best licensing jurisdictions. They are hands on with their operators - always has been.

Kahnawake Gaming Commission

This is great to hear since one of the casinos regulated by them had their payment processor take money out of my bank account from an unauthorized incomplete etransfer...how does that even happen? I'm concerned as I hadn't even logged into my banking details and it went through. Now the casino has made it so I can't see my transaction history for that time period. Is that even legal? Anyone familiar with Payper Inc? I am wondering if the payment processor or the casino are collecting data of banking details from previous legit log ins to my bank. Anyone else experience these issues?
Thanks!

 

[mulven]

This is great to hear since one of the casinos regulated by them had their payment processor take money out of my bank account from an unauthorized incomplete etransfer...how does that even happen? I'm concerned as I hadn't even logged into my banking details and it went through. Now the casino has made it so I can't see my transaction history for that time period. Is that even legal? Anyone familiar with Payper Inc? I am wondering if the payment processor or the casino are collecting data of banking details from previous legit log ins to my bank. Anyone else experience these issues?
Thanks!

They don't have access to your banking login.

When you click through an e-transfer request it adds a cookie with the transaction info and/or puts it inside the bank URL. This gives the bank the information and the direction to immediately open up a transfer with all the info filled out.

Had no issues with payper, I think PowerPlay or Bet99 use that right? Not sure who your issue with but those two sites have been very good and proper in my experience.

 

[Jett007]

They don't have access to your banking login.

When you click through an e-transfer request it adds a cookie with the transaction info and/or puts it inside the bank URL. This gives the bank the information and the direction to immediately open up a transfer with all the info filled out.

Had no issues with payper, I think PowerPlay or Bet99 use that right? Not sure who your issue with but those two sites have been very good and proper in my experience.

Then how do I have an incomplete email transfer email from payper inc? Telling me to complete it but I left it. I didn't signed into my bank details to confirm it because the website wouldn't take me there. I had to hit the back button. The casino already admits there is missing money that they didn't receive and they said it was with their payment processor. It has been more than 3 days. When you don't complete an etransfer it just dies (its supposed to anyways). How did they put through an incomplete transfer that they themselves said is incomplete? My transfer history on the casino is being withheld from me. Why is this? I can open every other transaction except the time period in question. I think I am legally allowed access to this information per their licensing so why is it being withheld? And no it isn't any of the casinos you listed. Furthermore they are also withholding a withdrawal because of this situation. How can they legally do so when they are the ones taking unauthorized money from my account. It may send a cookie asking to confirm an etransfer but you still need to log in to your bank to complete the details and hit confirm.

 

[mulven]

Then how do I have an incomplete email transfer email from payper inc? Telling me to complete it but I left it. I didn't signed into my bank details to confirm it because the website wouldn't take me there. I had to hit the back button. The casino already admits there is missing money that they didn't receive and they said it was with their payment processor. It has been more than 3 days. When you don't complete an etransfer it just dies (its supposed to anyways). How did they put through an incomplete transfer that they themselves said is incomplete? My transfer history on the casino is being withheld from me. Why is this? I can open every other transaction except the time period in question. I think I am legally allowed access to this information per their licensing so why is it being withheld? And no it isn't any of the casinos you listed. Furthermore they are also withholding a withdrawal because of this situation. How can they legally do so when they are the ones taking unauthorized money from my account. It may send a cookie asking to confirm an etransfer but you still need to log in to your bank to complete the details and hit confirm.

Which casino first of all?
It sounds like the casino hasn't received the money either?
Does it show up in your banks e-transfer history?

I'm guessing you have seen money leave your bank account because otherwise everything else points to the transfer being incomplete (casino hasn't received it, processor still waiting on transfer)

 

[Jett007]

Yukon gold. The money has left my bank account. The casino hasn't received it yet. The casino says it is with their payment processor. I have emails from payper stating it was incomplete and then an email later saying it went through without me even logging into anything. The casino is withholding my tranaction history as well.

 

[mulven]

Yukon gold. The money has left my bank account. The casino hasn't received it yet. The casino says it is with their payment processor. I have emails from payper stating it was incomplete and then an email later saying it went through without me even logging into anything. The casino is withholding my tranaction history as well.

Ah okay so not one of the really good ones, just a casino rewards site.

Were you making any other transfers around the same time?

It's possible that after you didn't complete the transfer you had used the bank account for another transfer and the cookie/URL was still present and prefilled the transaction info for this transaction.

It's not possible for the transaction to happen on its own, as like I said, the payment processor isn't actually doing anything it's all done by the bank in combination with information that the processor passes to them and will require you to press some buttons.

The casino is only saying it's with the payment processor as that's the default response for "money been taken from the account but not arrived"

Regarding withholding your transaction history, I've never found transaction history very usable on these microgaming powered casinos,
doesn't work half the time and is antiquated. Also if there's no deposit to the account then it won't appear? I don't think they show initialised deposits only successful ones.

I signed up to Yukon to have a quick look at the deposit options and make sure there wasn't some fancy new interac option on top of the existing e-transfer and e-transfer request. Payper is just the usual request from the looks of it so it's impossible for them to do anything without your actions and once again they cannot access your login details.

 

[Jett007]

Ok now you are on to something. As I said I pushed the back button because the website wouldn't take me to log in. I then proceeded to do another etransfer and it worked. I still don't understand how it could prefill a manual process where I have to choose which account and then hit confirm? I hit confirm for the second etransfer which has a specific ID not the first one that was incomplete?

 

[mulven]

Ok now you are on to something. As I said I pushed the back button because the website wouldn't take me to log in. I then proceeded to do another etransfer and it worked. I still don't understand how it could prefill a manual process where I have to choose which account and then hit confirm? I hit confirm for the second etransfer which has a specific ID not the first one that was incomplete?

What happened to the other transfer, did it arrive?

With regular etransfers it's a fully manual process.
With requests like payper, it's semi automated with URL/Cookie. Additionally if you logged into bank and were on the prefilled page, it times out and you log back in on the same tab it'll probably return you straight back to the prefilled page. This has happened to me before.
I've attached what happens with a semi automated request. Requires two button clicks and no data entry.

It's worth mentioning that if you have never used payper before it would need to be added as a payee first so, if you haven't done that then it would have been impossible to send them money by mistake.

The confirmation email is definitely from payper and not a gigadat/paydirect/wyzia/loonio one?

 

[Jett007]

I have never added payper as a payee. What happens on the casino website is you hit deposit then it takes you to a page to select how much you want to deposit. Then it takes you to a page where it shows how much you selected and then gets you to choose which bank. Then it takes you to a page where you can choose to log into your bank either through an app or browser. You choose one. It takes you to the log in page of your bank. You log in to your bank you will then see a request for money from payper. You have to then choose which account the payment is coming from and then hit confirm. It has it's own ID. So the first one that wasn't complete because I didn't log in and choose which account or hit the confirm button. It too has an ID so I still don't understand how my second etransfer after the first could go through? Btw I appreciate the help trying to figure this out

 

[mulven]

I have never added payper as a payee. What happens on the casino website is you hit deposit then it takes you to a page to select how much you want to deposit. Then it takes you to a page where it shows how much you selected and then gets you to choose which bank. Then it takes you to a page where you can choose to log into your bank either through an app or browser. You choose one. It takes you to the log in page of your bank. You log in to your bank you will then see a request for money from payper. You have to then choose which account the payment is coming from and then hit confirm. It has it's own ID. So the first one that wasn't complete because I didn't log in and choose which account or hit the confirm button. It too has an ID so I still don't understand how my second etransfer after the first could go through? Btw I appreciate the help trying to figure this out

The process you described matches my experience with requests, although I only had one account so never had to specify where the amount was coming from.

When you click through the buttons AND payper is not a payee it will popup to add them to your contacts.

If you go on your bank payees, are they there?

Could you send the email showing that the transfer went through?

Bottom line is, unless other banks do things very differently, a request cannot be completed without adding the payee as a contact

 

[Jett007]

Hi here is my etransfer list. No payper added. Payper sends a request for money and you have to confirm it and choose what account.

 

[mulven]

Hi here is my etransfer list. No payper added. Payper sends a request for money and you have to confirm it and choose what account.

Hmm maybe Scotia let's you do it without adding payee? CIBC would not let me past without doing it.

Moving on from this point, the transfer can't have been done without your actions so it remains to be figured out of you've conflated it with a different transfer or if the transfer has happened accidentally and got stuck somehow.

What did the confirmation email look like?
What does the interac history on Scotia look like?

 

[Jett007]

Here is the email from payper after it eventually went through

 

[mulven]

Here is the email from payper after it eventually went through

If you look in your browser history does anything line up with the timestamp in the email?

 

[Jett007]

I never thought to look...I will try to look.

 

[Jett007]

I wasn't online at the time I received the email and my browser history backs that up

 

[mulven]

I wasn't online at the time I received the email and my browser history backs that up

transfers can sometimes be delayed 0-60 mins so might be around there.

Also just noticed your forum location appears to be a street address, that is publically visible so you may want to change it to just Alberta.

Might be worth taking this to dms to avoid spamming the thread whilst we try to get to the bottom of it

 

[Jett007]

transfers can sometimes be delayed 0-60 mins so might be around there.

Also just noticed your forum location appears to be a street address, that is publically visible so you may want to change it to just Alberta.

Might be worth taking this to dms to avoid spamming the thread whilst we try to get to the bottom of it

How do I do that? Change my address?

 

[Jett007]

I don't know where Dms are lol but sure