Stake, Streamers and Crypto Casinos

[News Hound]

Britain's Sky News this morning took aim at Stake Casino, streamers that stream on their platform and crypto casinos in general

Read the full article here: Stake, Streamers and Crypto Casinos

 

[Webzcas]

Ok, so there are several different roads one could go down concerning this. Stake and their licensing, why do people stream their gaming sessions and why do people watch them, the ethics if any of streaming said content and is it good or bad for the industry?

Add to the mix the proliferation of crypto casinos and those casinos that operate 'offshore' that readily accept UK players no questions asked, even though they do not have a UKGC issued operators licence.

Well if as Sanya Burgess attests that:

Casinos found to be operating in the UK may also be breaking the law.

The UK’s gambling regulator, the Gambling Commission, is now investigating my findings. And a leading charity says what has been uncovered is a clear breach of UK laws and is "shocking".

Seriously, you mean this is the FIRST time the Gambling Commission have been made aware of offshore casinos accepting UK players? LOLOL

Turn it in!!!

If they have been unaware of them up until now, then I suggest they have been hanging out in the Torra Borra caves where one has no internet access. ROFL

The UKGC are all too aware of these offshore operators, many of whom target problem gamblers - Non GamStop sites anyone?

Yet they are powerless to do anything about it. Or so it would seem by their inaction.

In relation as to why UK players choose to play offshore, perhaps it is because the UKGC have over regulated the iGaming industry, but I guess that does not fit Sanya Burgess's narrative. Source of Wealth check and full bloods and swab tests too anyone?

As for streamers. I get it some people like watching them, fair enough. But like in all walks of life, some, not all are alas parasitic in nature...

There I have said my piece. Going to now take cover


Read more about Stake Casino HERE.

 

[goatwack]

It took a hit-piece by the MSM to bring this to the UKGC's attention. Namely, that streamers have gone too far in their pursuits, and that celebrity- endorsed casinos may indeed not be completely legit, all the more so with Drake.

We may now see the UKGC spring into action within the next five years, whilst having already lost the battle.

And as much as they'd love to purge problem gamblers off their books, as players run to the sunny shores of Curacao, the real reason they'd attempt to stifle the scourge of overseas Crypto play is because money is leaving the UK, nothing else

See Related:
Can Cryptoleo Casino be trusted? Find out here.

 

[maxd]

... The UKGC are all too aware of these offshore operators, many of whom target problem gamblers - Non GamStop sites anyone?

Yet they are powerless to do anything about it. Or so it would seem by their inaction. ...

For me the unfathomable part of this is that Stake@UKGC has a clear set of rules to conduct themselves by BUT Stake@Curaçao can do whatever they like while the UKGC pretends that they don't exist. How hypocritical is that!

Policeman stops a guy with a human head in the passenger seat:
Policeman: Sir, murder is illegal. You can't commit murder here.
BlackHatGuy: But I didn't commit murder here, I did it over there.
Policeman: Ah well, you're good to go then. Drive safely, and have a nice day!

You can't bang on endlessly about claiming the moral high ground and stopping something that is nasty and illegal if all you're really saying is "just don't do it in my back yard". I get jurisdictional boundaries but doing nothing -- when you know full well that the same guys that you license here are just crossing the border to do exactly what you say they shouldn't be doing -- is spineless and hypocritical. At least have the guts to tell them "your operation does not meet our standards" and tell them to bugger off.

- Max

 

[kou187]

I finally decided to give B.C games a go a few weeks ago using a v.pn. having seen MR Bandit having a lot of fun there with
quick spins, auto play, bonus buys, etc

it made me curious and excited to try them out...

And i have to say i have had not one issue what so ever in terms of withdrawals etc.
Didn't even need to make an account and you can deposit/withdraw within a couple minutes.
Total opposite of the U.K scene. Having said that, so far i have made a few £50 deposits and withdrew round £500 - £700

I do dread to think what could happen one day if i buy a bonus buy on some stupid no limit city game and win £12000 I dread to think what might happen then in terms of the withdrawal. But that is my only gripe about playing here.
That chance that i could be devastated one day if i hit big here and have loads of issues with k.y.c

 

[FroggyScream]

It might be hypocritical of me, but I think the government should just make sure the casinos (corporations) payout, but not limit the consumer (individual) as to where they play.

If Stake is paying out, leave them alone. The thing is they are both running ads and also not paying out, and it's this 1`-2 combo of stupidity that has a target on their back.

Ig BC.games keeps paying out, I think they'll stay under the radar. History says that it is highly likely they'll get greedy in a few years, though.

 

[slot_zombie]

For me the unfathomable part of this is that Stake@UKGC has a clear set of rules to conduct themselves by BUT Stake@Curaçao can do whatever they like while the UKGC pretends that they don't exist. How hypocritical is that!

You can't bang on endlessly about claiming the moral high ground and stopping something that is nasty and illegal if all you're really saying is "just don't do it in my back yard". I get jurisdictional boundaries but doing nothing -- when you know full well that the same guys that you license here are just crossing the border to do exactly what you say they shouldn't be doing -- is spineless and hypocritical. At least have the guts to tell them "your operation does not meet our standards" and tell them to bugger off.

- Max

The thing is that Stake can, and do, ban any accounts found to be accessing the site from prohibited jurisdictions. They also have a closed door "go away" screen in the face of casual wanderers.

It's only people continuing to sail and pretending to be from Ireland (cough) that cause issues. I fully expect to be caught one day and that will be 100% on me. The site is too good not to continue to chance it in the meantime.

 

[AndrewPearson]

Why was one of the most famous people in the world streaming himself gambling online?

The answer lies in the controversial world of crypto casinos – where beneath the neon lights and high stakes celebrations, lies a web of secrets.

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[Webzcas]

Hi Andrew, we have a thread concerning this already. Will merge your post into it.

 

[Webzcas]

@AndrewPearson also see Stake, Streamers and Crypto Casinos

 

[Reelsoffun]

I finally decided to give B.C games a go a few weeks ago using a v.pn. having seen MR Bandit having a lot of fun there with
quick spins, auto play, bonus buys, etc

I do dread to think what could happen one day if i buy a bonus buy on some stupid no limit city game and win £12000 I dread to think what might happen then in terms of the withdrawal. But that is my only gripe about playing here.
That chance that i could be devastated one day if i hit big here and have loads of issues with k.y.c

From my experience and from many people I know personally, what would most likely happen if you won £12,000 is that it would be in the bank same as your other withdrawals. Certainly at the moment there is no reason to think any different.

I know people that have cashed higher than 20k with no issues.

 

[Webzcas]

It all depends on which operator you are playing at IMO. There are some decent trustworthy crypto casinos around, just as there are many many rogue ones too.

Bottom line is, players need to do their own due diligence and research before they decide to join and play at any site, Crypto or otherwise.

 

[irish-ranger]

From my experience and from many people I know personally, what would most likely happen if you won £12,000 is that it would be in the bank same as your other withdrawals. Certainly at the moment there is no reason to think any different.

I know people that have cashed higher than 20k with no issues.

Dont know if that's the case with all these outfits, there was a guy who signed up to K8? As he seen thon rock in roller guy playing there, low and behold he hit 25k and the casino just blanked the guy wouldn't process the withdrawal and talk to the hand .

 

[satchnz]

I read the article first thing this morning, and was going to post a link to it here before this thread appeared. But I decided not to given it’s a piece written by someone who knows nothing about online gambling, and referred their findings to an authority that knows nothing about online gambling.

Yawn.

 

[jasonuk]

Ok, so there are several different roads one could go down concerning this. Stake and their licensing, why do people stream their gaming sessions and why do people watch them, the ethics if any of streaming said content and is it good or bad for the industry?

Slot streamers have existed for years, so that alone isn't the reason - in the earlier days fake streamers (such as Mr Twat with or without Hat) were kept in check because the vast majority of the community pointed out they were fake and education did (barely) enough... but as the proliferation of fake streamers grew, and previously honest streamers went rogue chasing their own pot of gold, that message became more and more difficult to maintain because fewer and fewer people were mentioning it.

That significant percentages of viewers still believe these people are playing with real money - despite the admission it's fake (terms like "fill money"), they've lost their net worth multiple times over, and they never talk about withdrawals - truly baffles me, I guess they can't admit that their streamer is now dishonest and/or fraudulent.

Saying that, I used to watch both Bandit and Rolla, and their crypto content has been increasingly painful... their play style has changed so much that it's difficult to tell if they're still playing with real money or not. The difference here is they started from a position of being a genuine streamer, rather than the previous category who see it as a "influencer gig" and it doesn't matter who gets hurt - as long as it's not their fault!

Seriously, you mean this is the FIRST time the Gambling Commission have been made aware of offshore casinos accepting UK players? LOLOL

Turn it in!!!

If they have been unaware of them up until now, then I suggest they have been hanging out in the Torra Borra caves where one has no internet access. ROFL

The UKGC are all too aware of these offshore operators, many of whom target problem gamblers - Non GamStop sites anyone?

Yet they are powerless to do anything about it. Or so it would seem by their inaction.

The recent updates from the UKGC have been pretty scandalous - we've collectively accused them of being asleep at the wheel, and it's much worse as they're still asleep in bed having turned the alarm clock off. There is going to be an element of powerless because they're offshore (same with how the KSA can't tackle rogue operators), but for the UKGC to have absolutely no clue on this, 3-4 years into the crypto slots boom, is staggering...

From my experience and from many people I know personally, what would most likely happen if you won £12,000 is that it would be in the bank same as your other withdrawals. Certainly at the moment there is no reason to think any different.

I know people that have cashed higher than 20k with no issues.

I agree that it's important people don't tar everyone with the same brush - we've seen our share of scandals in the UK market, Football Index allegedly behaving akin to a pyramid scheme and the UKGC took no action until they went under in 2021. Actions often speak louder than words, and the most prolific crypto casinos and providers, the ones that are happy to peddle fake money to entice viewers, addicts and even underage players are the ones that should have a big flashing "warning" sign over them... because they can and they will pull the rug at the first opportunity.

<edit>To add to the K8 comment from @irish-ranger earlier, the player raised the issue on rolla's forum 3 weeks ago - been no public statement from any party since on the topic.</edit>

 

[AndrewPearson]

Here is the video.
It says at the end the ASA have said "Anyone advertising Crypto Casinos to the UK is breaking the law"
So how does Chip get round it? His legal teams?

 

[AndrewPearson]

Slot streamers have existed for years, so that alone isn't the reason - in the earlier days fake streamers (such as Mr Twat with or without Hat) were kept in check because the vast majority of the community pointed out they were fake and education did (barely) enough... but as the proliferation of fake streamers grew, and previously honest streamers went rogue chasing their own pot of gold, that message became more and more difficult to maintain because fewer and fewer people were mentioning it.

That significant percentages of viewers still believe these people are playing with real money - despite the admission it's fake (terms like "fill money"), they've lost their net worth multiple times over, and they never talk about withdrawals - truly baffles me, I guess they can't admit that their streamer is now dishonest and/or fraudulent.

Saying that, I used to watch both Bandit and Rolla, and their crypto content has been increasingly painful... their play style has changed so much that it's difficult to tell if they're still playing with real money or not. The difference here is they started from a position of being a genuine streamer, rather than the previous category who see it as a "influencer gig" and it doesn't matter who gets hurt - as long as it's not their fault!


The recent updates from the UKGC have been pretty scandalous - we've collectively accused them of being asleep at the wheel, and it's much worse as they're still asleep in bed having turned the alarm clock off. There is going to be an element of powerless because they're offshore (same with how the KSA can't tackle rogue operators), but for the UKGC to have absolutely no clue on this, 3-4 years into the crypto slots boom, is staggering...


I agree that it's important people don't tar everyone with the same brush - we've seen our share of scandals in the UK market, Football Index allegedly behaving akin to a pyramid scheme and the UKGC took no action until they went under in 2021. Actions often speak louder than words, and the most prolific crypto casinos and providers, the ones that are happy to peddle fake money to entice viewers, addicts and even underage players are the ones that should have a big flashing "warning" sign over them... because they can and they will pull the rug at the first opportunity.

<edit>To add to the K8 comment from @irish-ranger earlier, the player raised the issue on rolla's forum 3 weeks ago - been no public statement from any party since on the topic.</edit>

Were is the post?

 

[interlog]

Very one sided article.

The article doesn't but should have also gone into the other reason why crypto casinos in the UK are now more popular, and that is the draconian measures that the UKGC has taken that puts UK gamblers off using a UK licensed casino. We all know what these measures are, yet the journalist who wrote the article didn't do any research on it and questioned the UKGC / Government about this.

 

[slot_zombie]

I want to live in the Classy Beef house.

 

[Webzcas]

Very one sided article.

The article doesn't but should have also gone into the other reason why crypto casinos in the UK are now more popular, and that is the draconian measures that the UKGC has taken that puts UK gamblers off using a UK licensed casino. We all know what these measures are, yet the journalist who wrote the article didn't do any research on it and questioned the UKGC / Government about this.

Yes, hence I referenced that in the article when covering this on Casinomeister. It is as if the journalist has a one sided agenda and narrative, ie all forms of gambling are bad.

In the main the reason MOST people play offshore is as you state down to the draconian measures put in place by the UKGC. Which are policed with massive 7 figure fines levied against operators. Hence when a player tries to cash out say £50 from Casumo for example, they are made to jump over more hurdles than Sally Gunnell in a 400 metres hurdles final.

 

[jasonuk]

Yes, hence I referenced that in the article when covering this on Casinomeister. It is as if the journalist has a one sided agenda and narrative, ie all forms of gambling are bad.

I think this is where a lot of the problems come from too - where people jump on their high horse and conflate very different narratives as one. This happened repeatedly when Twitch went into meltdown over fake gambling streams...

The opinions fell into roughly:

• All gambling is bad - either full stop (you're going to hate the biggest gamble of them all, The Game of Life) or with opinionated exclusions (and naturally some of those were among the worst offenders)
• Gambling streams are bad - some wanted a blanket ban, some wanted age-gating, some allowing slower forms like betting and poker but excluding dopamine traps like slots.
• Fraudulent gambling streams are bad - closer to the general consensus here, but with the obvious issue of self-policing, which people aren't going to do when they can be dishonest and get the bag instead.

So instead of focusing on the real problem (fraud and dishonesty), it became a rant about gambling and other "non-gaming" content on Twitch... I guess someone should tell Amazon that because they've been streaming TV and Sports for years at this point. ?

Were is the post?

If you mean the K8 comment, the post is at

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- but be aware there isn't much beyond a barebones opening complaint (and they were advised to DM one of the admins, so it's unclear if or when there will be any further updates), the rest of the thread goes off on different tangents about terms and conditions, and misunderstanding the relationship between crypto operators and TGP Europe (explained here on Casinomeister).

Very one sided article.

The article doesn't but should have also gone into the other reason why crypto casinos in the UK are now more popular, and that is the draconian measures that the UKGC has taken that puts UK gamblers off using a UK licensed casino. We all know what these measures are, yet the journalist who wrote the article didn't do any research on it and questioned the UKGC / Government about this.

In the wider picture it's a push and a pull - the push of draconian measures, and the pull of fake streamers promising untold (and unrealised) riches by bombarding their viewers with dopamine hits. A balanced article would discuss both, and while the article looks very pretty, it gets a lot of the fundamentals wrong...

• Twitch hasn't seen a 75% reduction in gambling viewership* - as we've discussed here on CM it dipped temporarily after the rule change, but has largely recovered and is now hidden in a number of secondary categories, with English-speaking streams replaced with Spanish and Russian ones.
• Completely misses the relationship between Stake and Kick, and that many of these actors have been working together for a number of years with Stake.
• Blindly assumes numbers as fact - that $360m figure quoted has already been debunked multiple times, the vast majority of it being casino credits (i.e. worthless), which
  You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
  .
• Of course the casinos aren't operating in the UK, but the affiliates sometimes are... and blindly claiming "promotion of the casino was legal" (referring to Drake) is a big error, given it often isn't. If the UKGC wasn't asleep at the wheel (or as we discovered, completely asleep with the alarm clock turned off), they would be taking action against UK-based affiliates promoting these sites... as other countries have done so.
• All the focus is on the operators, but the providers aren't really mentioned at all - given the amount of money being shovelled into crypto-friendly and monopoly-friendly promotions, and that those providers are always being played by said streamers. A topic we've started to cover more here on CM, and I expect regulators will need to step their game up quickly.

It's important for the discussion to happen, but misleading information only helps the bad guys...

<edit>To back this up - taking a 100k ballpark figure for pre-ban, at this moment there are 32.8k watching "Casino Jackpot", 17.3k watching Slots, 17.3k also watching "Virtual Casino", 4.2k watching Poker, 2.5k watching "Crypto" and a few other smaller categories... that's 75k viewers (whether real or not) right now... and I'm not even cherry-picking an optimal time of day. It's entirely plausible at this point that the number has gone up because the outrage was English-focused, and the current audience isn't... so expect Twitch Gambling Outrage 2.0 in a few months. </edit>

 

[goatwack]

Hardly the exposé we all thought we needed, but enough to get it into the public consciousness.

It sets a narrative from which the Media and the UKGC can launch their crusade against the nebulous Crypto world, of which Stake appear to be its poster child presently.

Trial by media, 'Crypto bad' and some streamer clips do not a full picture make. Nor will there be a shred of self-critique from the UKGC on how this actually came to be. Yet more importantly, it's only hit their HQ alarms to sound out "This is not a drill" because UK money is leaving these lands and being spent elsewhere; everything else is just filler.

Streamers hitting the apex of make-believe and using fake money has been apparent to anyone with eyes for.....ever

Drake being a terrible rapper and dimwittedly accepting lucrative sponsorships without knowing its harmful effects should surprise.....no one

And blotting out 'VPNs' from these pieces is about the worst-kept secret around, given that geo-blocked workarounds are positively encouraged by many non-UK-accepting casinos *clutches pearls*

I await Sky News and co to maybe one day expose the failings of the UKGC and how they single-handedly brought slotting in the UK to heel, and how they indirectly assisted in players' opting to go elsewhere. Might be a while

 

[Smithyy]

I think this brings up an interesting avenue, which I'm curious to see whether the UKGC will follow or not. You've had the likes of Chipmonkz Slots, Fruity Slots, etc, who have been found promoting non-UKGC licensed casino in the past (by accident, of course), and they always appear to have gotten a pass. Now, things have changed slightly; Jimbo Slots and Craig Slots, for example, are "BC.Game ambassadors" - and while they claim to be living outside of the UK, I think it's pretty undeniable that they're targeting UK viewers with their streams. The Bandit, streams at BC.GAME but is clever enough not to directly advertise this (instead, in his videos, instructing viewers to "head to my website if you want to find out where I'm playing, why, etc".

This isn't a bash of these three streamers, either - who, in my opinion, are actually pretty transparent and open compared to the likes of most online casino streamers today - it's more the fact that the casinos they're working with are quite clearly aware they're marketing their services to UK players, and are basically saying "we don't care."

You can see in

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on the Bandit's website, for example, some of the regular members there are pointing out that what he's doing is potentially breaking the law.

As a UK player myself, I empthanise completely with any UK player who wants to find a crypto casino to play at. I can't recommend brands or names, but I myself have played at non-UKGC licensed casinos for 7-8 years, and never once have been refused a withdrawal. In fact, even when one casino found I was in the UK, they still paid every penny in my account to my external crypto wallet - they just shut my account after.

What I do worry about, is that this is just going to lead to even more restrictions for UK players. How long until the UK Gov simply declares it illegal for PLAYERS to gamble at offshore casinos. The UKGC has completely alienated players with arbitrary restrictions. Sure, ban bonus buys - removing autoplay? Taking away Quickspin? It's just ridiculous and just pushes more players to unlicensed sites/those that shouldn't be accepting UK players, but that do.

I also would not be at all surprised if the UK Gambling Commission and/or the ASA come down hard and fast on these streamers. I'm sure many would welcome this move, others (myself included, I think) would be against it. The one area I DO care about is responsible gambling - and while GAMSTOP was an excellent scheme, its usefulness IMO is decreasing by the day as it's now easier than ever for UK players to join crypto sites even if they're self-excluded in the UK. And this is a problem that does need to be addressed in my eyes.

 

[jasonuk]

I also would not be at all surprised if the UK Gambling Commission and/or the ASA come down hard and fast on these streamers. I'm sure many would welcome this move, others (myself included, I think) would be against it. The one area I DO care about is responsible gambling - and while GAMSTOP was an excellent scheme, its usefulness IMO is decreasing by the day as it's now easier than ever for UK players to join crypto sites even if they're self-excluded in the UK. And this is a problem that does need to be addressed in my eyes.

If they are based in the UK, I think they have to... gambling is a regulated activity similar to financial services, and after getting caught out with the previous NFT and Crypto phase the FCA (Financial Conduct Authority) and ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) have been more proactive warning influencers about promoting illegal financial advertisements. An influencer or streamer is still a business, and a regulator allowing a UK-based business to promote unlicensed gambling / financial instruments to UK-based viewers would be a big problem.

I kind of expect that to be what happens - they can't touch the operator (because they're based in Curacao) but go after the UK-based affiliates instead... even though many of them have long left for sunnier climbs.

 

[Guntis]

I read the article first thing this morning, and was going to post a link to it here before this thread appeared. But I decided not to given it’s a piece written by someone who knows nothing about online gambling, and referred their findings to an authority that knows nothing about online gambling.

Yawn.

That Sky article looks like a promo action itself - full of high-lighted keywords, phrases, quotes, flashy gifs, big win moments, and mentions. Free UK traffic to stake.com and those streamers, in other words. The actual content quality is of one who usually writes entertainment stories for kids.