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Got a spam email today with an offer of a massive bonus. With time on me hands decided to check out the site. Read the withdraw terms ... eye splitting page of endless terms and cons for a withdraw of which I have no idea what it actually means. Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Anyone any info on this set up ?
 
Got a spam email today with an offer of a massive bonus. With time on me hands decided to check out the site. Read the withdraw terms ... eye splitting page of endless terms and cons for a withdraw of which I have no idea what it actually means. Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Anyone any info on this set up ?

Never seen it before and honestly i don't know why they have to make it so complicated.

Although... Maybe this is a way of making the chances of chargebacks (afterwards) smaller... Just an idea :rolleyes:
 
Its just an incredibly long winded way of saying they pay cashouts back to the deposit sources first, and then whatever one you choose.

The casino is owned by Cassava so make sure you dont have an account at any other Cassava casinos or you won't get paid. It's kinda a fun adventure actually because they dont tell you which properties they own!

IMO if a casino has a strict policy like this they should CLEARLY LIST all related casinos in their terms. It is roguish behaviour to expect players to work it out themselves.
 
Its just an incredibly long winded way of saying they pay cashouts back to the deposit sources first, and then whatever one you choose.

The casino is owned by Cassava so make sure you dont have an account at any other Cassava casinos or you won't get paid. It's kinda a fun adventure actually because they dont tell you which properties they own!

IMO if a casino has a strict policy like this they should CLEARLY LIST all related casinos in their terms. It is roguish behaviour to expect players to work it out themselves.

There are subtle clues - this at the bottom of the page:-

SpinWin is powered by Cassava Enterprises (Gibraltar) Limited, 601-701 Europort, Gibraltar.

They also have "powered by 888.com holdings" above this, but rather confusingly refer to CRYPTOLOGIC right next to it.

This may be a good way to check, and assume that this casino IS excluded if the player has an account at any other "powered by Cassava" casino. This may lose the casino some players who ARE allowed to play there, but that's tough - should have been more honest about this in the first place, and players would NOT have to be so damn cautious.
 
FWIW I've had a PAB on the books regarding these guys since 11 Jan, no progress to date though I do have a fine collection of automated "Thank you for taking the time to contact the Operations Department. ... The matter has now been forwarded to the relevant Department" emails.

Unfortunately "the relevant Department" seems to be in the 11th dimension because I've heard nothing back from them other than these oh-so-not-helpful automated responses, except once when they said "yup, the relevant Department is looking into it". They've never even bothered to contact the complainant. We are not amused.
Attach Removed (Old not found)
 
FWIW I've had a PAB on the books regarding these guys since 11 Jan, no progress to date though I do have a fine collection of automated "Thank you for taking the time to contact the Operations Department. ... The matter has now been forwarded to the relevant Department" emails.

Unfortunately "the relevant Department" seems to be in the 11th dimension because I've heard nothing back from them other than these oh-so-not-helpful automated responses, except once when they said "yup, the relevant Department is looking into it". They've never even bothered to contact the complainant. We are not amused.
Attach Removed (Old not found)

Thank-you for the update Max.

It has been forwarded to the irrelevant department....
 
And 888 was being considered for accreditation? I hope not! This group doesn't seem to be worthy.

The current discussion is revolving around the question of how closely tied Cassava is to each of it's software "users", mainly the white labels.

They are currently claiming, and not without some precedent -- look at pretty much every other software provider, though there are notable exceptions -- that they just sold the software to some of these guys but have no involvement in their day to day operations and are therefore not responsible for their activities. On the surface this sounds reasonable enough and one could argue for Accreditation of those of their casinos that operate on the up-and-up and are seeking Accreditation, so far that being 888 and Reef Club.

On the other hand there's the fact that every bit of communication from those other, "hide in the shadows" Cassava-using casinos comes with Cassava's name stamped all over it. In that case it's starting to look more like a Rival situation and a fair argument could be made against Accreditation of any of them.

I believe Bryan is mulling over these very issues given the "Baptism by Fire" status of 888 and Reef Club.
 
Just an opinion, but I don't believe accreditation should be given.

It's just too easy a way around Casinomeister's good standards and efforts to shield players for 888 to say "we're just the software provider."

And in my view it sets a dangerous precedent for other questionable decisions for companies that have made the environment more dangerous for players with their white labels and concealed ownerships that offer no redress. Like Rival.

888 profits from these bastards that are screwing players over in white label operations, along with their questionable promotional activities and suspect affilates.

The licensor is often the only way to reach these concealed owners and call them to account, and I don't think that said licensor's should be given any encouragement to perpetuate a system that is definitely against a player's interests. On the contrary, I believe that at every opportunity they should be encouraged to shoulder at least some of the responsibility for the activities of operators they have supposedly vetted and approved for use of their softwares.

When 888 accepts that it will facilitate complaints against its white labels and thereby ensure players are given some protection would be a more appropriate time for them to be even considered for accreditation imo.
 
that they just sold the software to some of these guys but have no involvement in their day to day operations and are therefore not responsible for their activities.

With these type of agreements between software providers and operators, would it be fair to say that these operators would also have complete control of all the games RTP settings?

If that is the case, what would be the lowest RTP setting they could legally put the player up against?
 
... would it be fair to say that these operators would also have complete control of all the games RTP settings?

Who knows? Theoretically possible I suppose but who knows what actually happens in practice. And I don't expect said operators to be inviting anyone in to snoop around to find out, at least not any time soon.

If that is the case, what would be the lowest RTP setting they could legally put the player up against?

You'd have to check the Terms of the licencing jurisdiction. Some claim to control such things, some make no mention of such at all.

In general though "legal" is not applicable to many casinos because of their licencing and home office jurisdictions -- think Liberian tankers -- therefore the question is not really relevant.

I assumed you would know all this. Is there some point to your question(s) I'm missing here?
 
On another topic does anyone have a snapshot of SpinWin Terms from around the end of November 2010? My specific interest is the "Bonus Policy" page in the "Promotions" section.

If you have such I'd love to get a copy.
 
With these type of agreements between software providers and operators, would it be fair to say that these operators would also have complete control of all the games RTP settings?

If that is the case, what would be the lowest RTP setting they could legally put the player up against?

My understanding is that NO operator has TOTAL control over RTP settings, but rather limited preset options. In other cases like MG the slots have a static RTP.

But then, you knew all that already, so I'm sure you had a follow up question coming or some other point as Max alluded to. Maybe an RTG-related question? :rolleyes:
 
The current discussion is revolving around the question of how closely tied Cassava is to each of it's software "users", mainly the white labels.

They are currently claiming, and not without some precedent -- look at pretty much every other software provider, though there are notable exceptions -- that they just sold the software to some of these guys but have no involvement in their day to day operations and are therefore not responsible for their activities. On the surface this sounds reasonable enough and one could argue for Accreditation of those of their casinos that operate on the up-and-up and are seeking Accreditation, so far that being 888 and Reef Club.

On the other hand there's the fact that every bit of communication from those other, "hide in the shadows" Cassava-using casinos comes with Cassava's name stamped all over it. In that case it's starting to look more like a Rival situation and a fair argument could be made against Accreditation of any of them.

I believe Bryan is mulling over these very issues given the "Baptism by Fire" status of 888 and Reef Club.

If this claim is true, how come we have this "one account only across the entire Cassava operated white label casinos".

Players are repeatedly having winnings confiscated because they had already created an account earlier at a completely different white label casino, and are told to "not open an account at any Cassava property, else even your DEPOSIT will be confiscated". From this, it is clear that ALL Cassava casinos are running as "sister casinos", and information is pooled centrally, and shared between all, even those they supposedly "just sold the software to".

Now, if they "just sold the software to" a particular white label, there is NO WAY they should also be passing on our personal information to such a white label. It is as acceptable as, say, 32Red passing it's players' personal details to Jackpot Factory, to detect whether players have accounts with BOTH groups, with a view to enforcing a "one account across all Microgamng properties" policy.

If these Cassava white labels were truly independent, they would NOT be cooperating to the extent that they would REFUSE a player on the grounds that they had already signed up at a competitor. Far from it, they would be making every effort to POACH such a player from the competitor.

I think we have the same situation as with Rival, a central Cassava "player ratings" database, and with the white labels pretty much run by Cassava, and a structure that does NOT want players spreading their play between a number of white label casinos, which is pretty much what Rival seems to object to, since I have noticed that every player that has been "bonus banned" at Rival has "opened accounts at many Rival powered casinos".

On top of this, we have the complaint that as soon as a player signs up at ONE Cassava property, they get inundated with what the rep called "cross marketing" emails encouraging them to sign up at a number of other white labels. This would NOT happen where the casinos were truly COMPETING with each other. In my example, it would be like 32Red "cross marketing" All Slots and All Jackpots casino to it's players, as well as Dash, Nedplay, and Golden Lounge. They would NOT, since Jackpot Factory are their COMPETITOR, and they would SUFFER were their players to move their action to anywhere other than one of the other 32Red Group properties.
 
My understanding is that NO operator has TOTAL control over RTP settings, but rather limited preset options.


It is my understanding that Real Time Gaming (RTG) software providers offer their operators much more then just limited preset RTP settings. I’ve been led to believe that not only do some RTG operators have complete control of any RTP settings they desire, they could also activate these desired settings in real time 24/7.

In addition I also believe that the accredited list here is getting somewhat watered down. There are presently 106 accredited casinos with 5 more soon to be added. I understand the need for more online casinos then you could find walking the strip in Las Vegas, considering online is world wide. But does the list have to be this large and always getting bigger? Regardless of their software, why not just have a top 5 elite list for U.S. players, 5 for EU, and so on? When I was playing online I usually played only 2 different casinos with an occasional stray. If a session was that bad I’d move to my second casino, and if it continued my bankroll for the day would usually be exhausted after two bad sessions. I’m not sure why so many casinos are listed here, but I do have my personal opinions.

If you’re a bonus hunter I understand the need for so many different options, but it should be obvious to most by now that the casinos have adjusted to bonus abuse and are no longer letting anyone have their way with them with their own casino money. Bonuses offered today for the most part are for the low roller looking to kill time. And should the rare bonus winner slip through the cracks and make a decent strike, there are always the “spirit of the bonuses” protection clauses available to throw at the winner. I think it’s fair to say that bonuses have completed their cycle.

Personally I would prefer a high powered elite list, then throwing a dart at a list this big if I had to choose a casino to play at.
 
It is my understanding that Real Time Gaming (RTG) software providers offer their operators much more then just limited preset RTP settings. I’ve been led to believe that not only do some RTG operators have complete control of any RTP settings they desire, they could also activate these desired settings in real time 24/7.

In addition I also believe that the accredited list here is getting somewhat watered down. There are presently 106 accredited casinos with 5 more soon to be added. I understand the need for more online casinos then you could find walking the strip in Las Vegas, considering online is world wide. But does the list have to be this large and always getting bigger? Regardless of their software, why not just have a top 5 elite list for U.S. players, 5 for EU, and so on? When I was playing online I usually played only 2 different casinos with an occasional stray. If a session was that bad I’d move to my second casino, and if it continued my bankroll for the day would usually be exhausted after two bad sessions. I’m not sure why so many casinos are listed here, but I do have my personal opinions.

If you’re a bonus hunter I understand the need for so many different options, but it should be obvious to most by now that the casinos have adjusted to bonus abuse and are no longer letting anyone have their way with them with their own casino money. Bonuses offered today for the most part are for the low roller looking to kill time. And should the rare bonus winner slip through the cracks and make a decent strike, there are always the “spirit of the bonuses” protection clauses available to throw at the winner. I think it’s fair to say that bonuses have completed their cycle.

Personally I would prefer a high powered elite list, then throwing a dart at a list this big if I had to choose a casino to play at.

Oh geez not THAT old chestnut again. :rolleyes:

We have already been through this same argument when you claimed to have 'ultra secret' information for which your sources were 'paid a visit'. It turned out to be nothing at all and you haven't provided any credible evidence to suggest that operators have full unfettered control over the RTP.

Bryan and others, including those who help design and test the games, have stated that there are three RTP settings available to operators.

I see no reason to take the word of a conspiracy theorist over that of someone like Bryan who who's integrity and credibility has been proven over and over.

The accredited list is a resource for members to use when selecting a place to play. I think its great there is a wide choice. If it were to be pruned back it would IMO give the impression that CM might be 'in bed' with those small handful of operators. At least now you can safely say that isn't the case given how many competing casinos are listed.

If you want a list of five elite casinos, do some further research yourself and narrow down what is there already....at least then there would be no room for conspiracy theoriesabout CM favoring one over another.
 
My understanding is that NO operator has TOTAL control over RTP settings, but rather limited preset options. In other cases like MG the slots have a static RTP.

But then, you knew all that already, so I'm sure you had a follow up question coming or some other point as Max alluded to. Maybe an RTG-related question? :rolleyes:

Was that really necessary?

Oh geez not THAT old chestnut again. :rolleyes:

We have already been through this same argument when you claimed to have 'ultra secret' information for which your sources were 'paid a visit'. It turned out to be nothing at all and you haven't provided any credible evidence to suggest that operators have full unfettered control over the RTP.

Bryan and others, including those who help design and test the games, have stated that there are three RTP settings available to operators.

I see no reason to take the word of a conspiracy theorist over that of someone like Bryan who who's integrity and credibility has been proven over and over.

The accredited list is a resource for members to use when selecting a place to play. I think its great there is a wide choice. If it were to be pruned back it would IMO give the impression that CM might be 'in bed' with those small handful of operators. At least now you can safely say that isn't the case given how many competing casinos are listed.

If you want a list of five elite casinos, do some further research yourself and narrow down what is there already....at least then there would be no room for conspiracy theoriesabout CM favoring one over another.

Again, was that necessary?

Jod is right, everyone has the right to post their thoughts and ask questions, but for cryin' out loud, are these snarky remarks really necessary Nifty? Some posters could say the sky is blue, and you would bring crap up from months ago in a snarky reply. Lighten up for cryin out loud, lay off these people.

Sorry for the derail, but this is really starting to get under skin. I am sure I am not the only one either.

LH
 
It is my understanding that Real Time Gaming (RTG) software providers offer their operators much more then just limited preset RTP settings. I’ve been led to believe that not only do some RTG operators have complete control of any RTP settings they desire, they could also activate these desired settings in real time 24/7.

In addition I also believe that the accredited list here is getting somewhat watered down. There are presently 106 accredited casinos with 5 more soon to be added. I understand the need for more online casinos then you could find walking the strip in Las Vegas, considering online is world wide. But does the list have to be this large and always getting bigger? Regardless of their software, why not just have a top 5 elite list for U.S. players, 5 for EU, and so on? When I was playing online I usually played only 2 different casinos with an occasional stray. If a session was that bad I’d move to my second casino, and if it continued my bankroll for the day would usually be exhausted after two bad sessions. I’m not sure why so many casinos are listed here, but I do have my personal opinions.

If you’re a bonus hunter I understand the need for so many different options, but it should be obvious to most by now that the casinos have adjusted to bonus abuse and are no longer letting anyone have their way with them with their own casino money. Bonuses offered today for the most part are for the low roller looking to kill time. And should the rare bonus winner slip through the cracks and make a decent strike, there are always the “spirit of the bonuses” protection clauses available to throw at the winner. I think it’s fair to say that bonuses have completed their cycle.

Personally I would prefer a high powered elite list, then throwing a dart at a list this big if I had to choose a casino to play at.


Placing an arbitrary limit on the number of casinos that can be accredited does NOTHING to encourage the rest to "up their game" so that they also meet the standards, and can be added to the list.

We should be worried about any watering down of the STANDARDS, rather than the number of casinos that meet them.

If anything, the standards were recently made MORE demanding.
 
Being "Snarky" is not a bad thing. As long as it is balanced with normal interaction. Nifty is a knowledgeable guy, he knows his stuff but sometimes gets frustrated, for whatever reason. Then he becomes "overly" Snarky and that is NOT good.

I believe that is the point you are trying to make is it not, LHofsdal? A little goes a long way? :)
 
Being "Snarky" is not a bad thing. As long as it is balanced with normal interaction. Nifty is a knowledgeable guy, he knows his stuff but sometimes gets frustrated, for whatever reason. Then he becomes "overly" Snarky and that is NOT good.

I believe that is the point you are trying to make is it not, LHofsdal? A little goes a long way? :)

Cmon jod. You've had your fair share of snarky comments over the years.

I get snarky when I see someone ask a loaded question I.e they already know the answer. Just as you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, including me, and I didn't say for a second that anyone else couldnt express theirs. I just happen to disagree with them which is not the same thing.

The first comment re RTG question was sarcastic u got me there.

The second one re finding your own elite casinos was not snarky. I was simply saying that as soon as Bryan starts an 'elite' list the accusations and insinuations will come from everywhere. The strength of CM is that he has a set of standards and you will be accredited if you meet them. No favorites no appearance of bias. If a player wants the best if the best then the CM awards are a good place to start.
 

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