RTP and how deposit bonus benefit the casino

geordiecolin

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It appears to me while using deposit bonuses that I hit most of my biggest wins while playing a bonus but then ultimately I still fail to meet the wagering requirements.
I am possibly experiencing this right now while taking up the 400% deal at Jackpot strike. I hit nothing until my original deposit zeroed out and then hit the wagering requirements for the bonus. Now with huge wagering to achieve I am hitting wins that would have had me withdrawing if it had not gone below my original deposit ( Triggering the wagering)
My question is. Are these very big wins during wagering requirements that eventually turn to losses for the player effecting casino's RTP massively in the casino's favour?

Edit. I thought that no casino could allow you to use 1000 auto spins as they are in JATB?
 

spoton

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Right behind you
They don't affect the casinos RTP a bit, since each spin is random. Once one spin is done you have the same chance of winning on the next one no matter if you won 10000€ or not.
 

brianmon

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webby
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May 22, 2013
Location
Cumbria
It appears to me while using deposit bonuses that I hit most of my biggest wins while playing a bonus but then ultimately I still fail to meet the wagering requirements.
I am possibly experiencing this right now while taking up the 400% deal at Jackpot strike. I hit nothing until my original deposit zeroed out and then hit the wagering requirements for the bonus. Now with huge wagering to achieve I am hitting wins that would have had me withdrawing if it had not gone below my original deposit ( Triggering the wagering)
My question is. Are these very big wins during wagering requirements that eventually turn to losses for the player effecting casino's RTP massively in the casino's favour?

Edit. I thought that no casino could allow you to use 1000 auto spins as they are in JATB?

You'll be well pissed off if you hit really big, since the most you can withdraw is 2x bonus (£160)
 

SlotGrinder

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Jan 8, 2016
Location
England
There's no way this particular deposit bonus can benefit the casino because your deposit is treated as real money and you can do what you want with it . Only once you have lost your real money then does the bonus come into effect . How can it benefit the casino if you have already lost your entire deposit ? They can't possibly make more money from you unless you redeposit

Now you can say ah the wagering requirement has swallowed up my big hits so now if I do redeposit then the slots will have a lower rtp but would you be saying that if instead of bonus money you had just been playing with playmoney ? Would playmoney big hits and slow decline then make you think that the playmoney spins had "stolen" your rtp ? Because it's no different except that at least at the end of your bonus money session you might end up with some real cash.

Next time you play a slot the rtp will be the same as it's always been . It doesn't matter what happened the last time you played it
 

mimi26

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Joined
May 17, 2012
Location
uk
One thing that I can never understand is if each spin is random, lets take thunderstruck 1 for example, how is it that you can have lets say 5 lowest paid symbols pay numerous times through out a session but after millions of spins the 5 hammers never show, surely every winning combination should have an equal chance of showing up.

I think I have seen the wilds in a five reel win on these slots twice and never had them myself after 13 years and millions of spins
 

BananaCognac

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Jul 31, 2014
Location
Melbourne
Im a bit of a skeptic to this randomness of spins that has been preached to us.

Unless you work as the person who puts these slot machines together (land based obviously), I dont think anyone can say categorically that its rigged.

I have been playing for close to three years, but many many sessions, and I just dont understand why that after you get a big hit--say 300x bet plus - the game inevitably goes cold for a long time, almost until the game has recouped the win amount you had won not that long before.

Yes--this doesnt happen 100% of the time but I am sure it happens at least 80% of the time - which leads me to question the randomness of each spin.
 

colinsunderland

On a Break
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Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
I am possibly experiencing this right now while taking up the 400% deal at Jackpot strike. I hit nothing until my original deposit zeroed out and then hit the wagering requirements for the bonus. Now with huge wagering to achieve I am hitting wins that would have had me withdrawing if it had not gone below my original deposit ( Triggering the wagering)

The amount of times that happens is unreal. Played on slottyvegas last night, £50 deposit, £25 bonus, RTP for the first £50 was around 50%, was playing 90p spins, balance was £23.90, so just into bonus, got a win of £180, 2 spins later £120. Actually worked out well for a change, as if I had been in cash still I would have withdrew £200 at that point, ended up getting a £390 win on girls with guns with around £100 wagering left and withdrew £600 :thumbsup:, that is the exception rather than the rule though!
 

KasinoKing

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One thing that I can never understand is if each spin is random, lets take thunderstruck 1 for example, how is it that you can have lets say 5 lowest paid symbols pay numerous times through out a session but after millions of spins the 5 hammers never show, surely every winning combination should have an equal chance of showing up.

I think I have seen the wilds in a five reel win on these slots twice and never had them myself after 13 years and millions of spins
Because there aren't the same number of each symbol on each reel!
This is a truly random slot - each reel has an equal chance of landing in any position.

The chances of getting 5 wilds on Thunderstruck is one in 3.96 MILLION spins... so pretty rare!
(I hit it once on the direct clone: Spring Break :cool:)
The chances of getting 5 Hammers (including with wilds) is once in 11,000 spins.

To see the reel layouts, look here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


KK
 

mimi26

Meister Member
Joined
May 17, 2012
Location
uk
Because there aren't the same number of each symbol on each reel!
This is a truly random slot - each reel has an equal chance of landing in any position.

The chances of getting 5 wilds on Thunderstruck is one in 3.96 MILLION spins... so pretty rare!
(I hit it once on the direct clone: Spring Break :cool:)
The chances of getting 5 Hammers (including with wilds) is once in 11,000 spins.

To see the reel layouts, look here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


KK

Thanks KK such a sinple explanation but one that has had me baffled and yes I meant your screenshot when talking about the five wilds, maybe I am due one :D
 

SlotGrinder

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Jan 8, 2016
Location
England
Obviously in slots it can look like you have equal chances to hit the big pays when of course you don't.. like here I expect the graphics are completely disproportionate to the actual chance of hitting the vegas jackpot (or any of the big jackpots)
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
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geordiecolin

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Near Newcastle
If huge wins are obtained during a bonus's wagering,which the vast majority of my big wins occur, and in which I ultimately do not complete wagering in then surely it does favour the casino's RTP requirements because they are not paying out anything?
 

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
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Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
If huge wins are obtained during a bonus's wagering,which the vast majority of my big wins occur, and in which I ultimately do not complete wagering in then surely it does favour the casino's RTP requirements because they are not paying out anything?

If I had my TF hat on I'd say bonuses are looser and give you the big wins early on (a common theme) so by the time you do clear wagering all your 'luck' has been used up, and you're left readdressing the slots RTP over many, many dead spins. :eek:

Very rarely do we see people have a bad start on bonuses, only to peak once wagering is done and going on stupendous runs. Almost always it's the other way round :mad:
 

spintee

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The way I look at it if I am reading right.

Of course the RTP is equipped in with the bonus, Put 100 quid in and win 10, put 100 in with 100 bonus win 10 quid your RTP is going to be half but that still registrar with each spin, If you get my drift.

So in reality that other 10 squid you not win that is still going to the RTP pot, If you belive in RTP, I been playing long time to know RTP does not come into factor, play a 99% rtp or 2% rtp its about luck

If sites was charge foer every spin I Ccould understand but very rar you take a bonus and win, I say win I mean break into he bonus than get good hits fora take out, 90% or more of bonus I took ot than I would of win before hit the bonus and due to the bonus I and up playing ad take more out :)

Once in a blue moon I break into a bonus and take out???
 

geordiecolin

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Location
Near Newcastle
If I had my TF hat on I'd say bonuses are looser and give you the big wins early on (a common theme) so by the time you do clear wagering all your 'luck' has been used up, and you're left readdressing the slots RTP over many, many dead spins. :eek:

Very rarely do we see people have a bad start on bonuses, only to peak once wagering is done and going on stupendous runs. Almost always it's the other way round :mad:

I am sure a mathematician would conclude that there is scope within a bonus play through for a RTP to be higher than expected yet still achieve no cash out. If this is so then the casino must benefit in terms of RTP obligations over all deposits.
 

SlotGrinder

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Location
England
If huge wins are obtained during a bonus's wagering,which the vast majority of my big wins occur, and in which I ultimately do not complete wagering in then surely it does favour the casino's RTP requirements because they are not paying out anything?

I own a casino (in my dreams) and I give you £50 from my own pocket and say you can only cashout if you wager £2000 and you say ok thanks for the free shot . You have some big hits but eventually end up at zero . Next day you go to play at my casino with your own money and you think the slots will "remember" how you did last time ? No they are just slots the same as always.

The wagering requirement/winnings cap is to lessen the damage to the casino , it can't "steal" rtp from the player . Especially when it's a bonus which only comes into effect after your real money is wagered . If it was a bonus that immediately ties up your real money then it benefits the casino in that although they give you free money they set the wagering requirements so that by the time you have completed the wagering you will have expected to have lost at least the bonus money and in some cases both your deposit and the bonus money (when WR is high) . But it's just the money you deposited that they are after . They can't devise a strategy to steal rtp
 

geordiecolin

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Location
Near Newcastle
I own a casino (in my dreams) and I give you £50 from my own pocket and say you can only cashout if you wager £2000 and you say ok thanks for the free shot . You have some big hits but eventually end up at zero . Next day you go to play at my casino with your own money and you think the slots will "remember" how you did last time ? No they are just slots the same as always.

The wagering requirement/winnings cap is to lessen the damage to the casino , it can't "steal" rtp from the player . Especially when it's a bonus which only comes into effect after your real money is wagered . If it was a bonus that immediately ties up your real money then it benefits the casino in that although they give you free money they set the wagering requirements so that by the time you have completed the wagering you will have expected to have lost at least the bonus money and in some cases both your deposit and the bonus money (when WR is high) . But it's just the money you deposited that they are after . They can't devise a strategy to steal rtp

The bigger the wagering requirements of a deposit bonus the higher a RTP during the play through can be obtained without making the play through. Without a cash out then surely it enables a casino to average a return of less that the advertised RTP over a period of time for real money deposits?
I am happy for me to be proven to be incorrect
 

spintee

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Location
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I own a casino (in my dreams) and I give you £50 from my own pocket and say you can only cashout if you wager £2000 and you say ok thanks for the free shot . You have some big hits but eventually end up at zero . Next day you go to play at my casino with your own money and you think the slots will "remember" how you did last time ? No they are just slots the same as always.

The wagering requirement/winnings cap is to lessen the damage to the casino , it can't "steal" rtp from the player . Especially when it's a bonus which only comes into effect after your real money is wagered . If it was a bonus that immediately ties up your real money then it benefits the casino in that although they give you free money they set the wagering requirements so that by the time you have completed the wagering you will have expected to have lost at least the bonus money and in some cases both your deposit and the bonus money (when WR is high) . But it's just the money you deposited that they are after . They can't devise a strategy to steal rtp

The bigger the wagering requirements of a deposit bonus the higher a RTP during the play through can be obtained without making the play through. Without a cash out then surely it enables a casino to average a return of less that the advertised RTP over a period of time for real money deposits?
I am happy for me to be proven to be incorrect


I cannot take to much in at the miunute guys due to consumption of beers, But I belive Grinder is right, (staeling) the RTP is what its called

Put in £10 lose but end up wager 100

put in 10 get 10 free and end up wager 200 but bust out due to wager req, the machine has stolne stolen (give) you more than the RTP but due to bonus your stuffed
 

xxshepxx

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What irk me is that so many of us agree that bigger wins happen earlier on in bonuses so we can bust before meeting wagering requirements.....then we follow it uo by saying tin foil hat statement.


Is it about time to think it isnt? And this is actually pre-programmed to do this? All too many times i have had big wins thinking YES im gonna do this and make a withdrawal...only for the killswitch effect to start working and it goes dead.

I decided to stop playing with bonuses for a while....oh my lord what a difference. I was doing upwards of 800spins on Immortal romance for a set of scatter...which of course paid 5x. Majority of games behaved like this and it bored me to the point I wanted to call it quits.

I now use bonuses again, just for sheer entertainment. I am now getting regular bonuses again...and on the odd occasion a withdrawal.

Now berate me, be-little my comments/views/expieriences all you want. Its my opinion and Im free to voice it.

Bit I am 100% in the mindset that casinos can and do set things how they like, so they make money. Random my arse. Funny how I can lose 100 deposits in a row, but never withdraw from 2 in a row.

I play purely for entertainment now, so it doesnt really get to me.
 

SlotGrinder

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Location
England
The bigger the wagering requirements of a deposit bonus the higher a RTP during the play through can be obtained without making the play through. Without a cash out then surely it enables a casino to average a return of less that the advertised RTP over a period of time for real money deposits?
I am happy for me to be proven to be incorrect

RTP is linked to your wagering not to the amount you deposit . So higher wagering requirement equals more wagering . The rtp doesn't change but the reason it's hard to cashout is that you're forced to do more wagering than you would when you didn't take a bonus . If you have a balance of £500 but have wagering of £2000 to complete then you will wager up to £2000 at 96% rtp . If you cashout then you get the money but next time you deposit and play you will play a slot at 96% rtp . There's no difference to the rtp of the slot . If you're asking does wagering requirements affect how much the casino has to actually pay out in real money .. then of course it does that's why they put wagering requirement on their bonuses . Look what happened at Betfair when they put unlimited bonuses at 10x and got absolutely smashed

The point is , after you have finished the whole bonus and did or did not cashout etc then the next time you deposit and play you are playing fresh . There's no lingering "lost rtp" or anything like that
 

SpinUk

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Location
London
RTP is linked to your wagering not to the amount you deposit . So higher wagering requirement equals more wagering . The rtp doesn't change but the reason it's hard to cashout is that you're forced to do more wagering than you would when you didn't take a bonus . If you have a balance of £500 but have wagering of £2000 to complete then you will wager up to £2000 at 96% rtp . If you cashout then you get the money but next time you deposit and play you will play a slot at 96% rtp . There's no difference to the rtp of the slot . If you're asking does wagering requirements affect how much the casino has to actually pay out in real money .. then of course it does that's why they put wagering requirement on their bonuses . Look what happened at Betfair when they put unlimited bonuses at 10x and got absolutely smashed

The point is , after you have finished the whole bonus and did or did not cashout etc then the next time you deposit and play you are playing fresh . There's no lingering "lost rtp" or anything like that

Ive read about this promotion debacle a few times - was a there a thread about it on here
 

Harry_BKK

Dormant account
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Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
To answer the question whether online slots are random:

- Fact is --> WE DON'T KNOW ...and probably never will.
- Fact is also --> 100% randomness just does not exist in anything mankind has build.

Netent is using Fortuna as RNG which is a secure random number generator, but they do not state how those generated random seeds are distributed.

I look at it as a mathematician and there are umpteenth occasions where my understanding screams --> "it just can't be random" .....

Example 1 - VS battles

This is happening in each and every battle but i will take straight numbers to make it easy to follow.

- 300 players, each spinning 1x / 2 seconds = 9,000 spins / minute
- 100 battle spins are played in appr. 3 minutes = 30.000 spins
- all is totally random, right
- however, in each battle is see players who made 2-5 spins suddenly shooting to the top with some outrageous number and they keep getting more bonus rounds and more high wins, like they are getting piled up on them. I experienced it myself --> 6 bonus rounds in 100 spins, each paying min. 50x bet, on top a few high 5OAK's
- random results means this can happen, no problem with that but it happens in every battle, so where is the randomness??
- that the RNG, which is supposedly 100% random, gives all those high wins to 1, 2 or 3 players out of hundreds and that in every single battle CANNOT be random.

Just to put it in perspective:

- assume you have a giant wheel with 30,000 possible results = the amount of battle spins, of those 20 are the really high wins who get the players in the battles to the TOP3
- that is 1:1500 to hit one of those high wins
- now comes the kicker: in each and every battle those few players are hitting repeatedly exactly those few high results available on the wheel

- mathematically it can happen occasionally but for it to happen all the time comes close to "absolutely impossible" to say it is random.

Example 2 - DOA --> Double 5OAK Sheriff Star


I have more numbers on this slot but will just give this one example. The win is very rare as it can happen only in 2 combinations on Line 1+6 or Line 3+7 .....i assume it happens about 1/15 - 20,000 spins.

Now here are my numbers:

- I took 0.5 Mio spins played at each of these bet levels since i started playing DOA, played a lot more than that but I only took the first 0.5Mio spins at each of those values, obviously it took a much longer period to accumulate those @ $.4.50 - 9.00 .... but I would say that it is a pretty good sample size
- The total hits for that specific win are:

--> 0.09 - 0.36 / 0.01 denomination --> 21x the double 5OAK
--> 0.90 - 3.60 / 0.10 denomination --> 1x
--> 4.50 - 9.00 / 0.50 denomination --> 0x

Now, you can call me a big unlucky git, but those numbers just don't add up if something is totally random. You have one event happening on average every 23,800 spins at one denomination but only 1x in 0.5Mio spins at the higher denomination and never in 0.5Mio spins at the highest.

Until this day, with tons more spins at the 0.50 denomination, I have yet to hit that win once at $4.50 or $9.00. :eek:

Again, looking at it mathematically, it is sheer impossible to say "yeah, it is random"



'NUFF SAID! :rolleyes: :D
 
Last edited:

goatwack

I’ll have the cleavage, I mean the special
CAG
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
What irk me is that so many of us agree that bigger wins happen earlier on in bonuses so we can bust before meeting wagering requirements.....then we follow it uo by saying tin foil hat statement.


Is it about time to think it isnt? And this is actually pre-programmed to do this? All too many times i have had big wins thinking YES im gonna do this and make a withdrawal...only for the killswitch effect to start working and it goes dead.

I decided to stop playing with bonuses for a while....oh my lord what a difference. I was doing upwards of 800spins on Immortal romance for a set of scatter...which of course paid 5x. Majority of games behaved like this and it bored me to the point I wanted to call it quits.

I now use bonuses again, just for sheer entertainment. I am now getting regular bonuses again...and on the odd occasion a withdrawal.

Now berate me, be-little my comments/views/expieriences all you want. Its my opinion and Im free to voice it.

Bit I am 100% in the mindset that casinos can and do set things how they like, so they make money. Random my arse. Funny how I can lose 100 deposits in a row, but never withdraw from 2 in a row.

I play purely for entertainment now, so it doesnt really get to me.

I wear my tinfoil hat all the time, not just for slot conspiracy theories. It's a great look although I fear it may have fused onto my scalp :oops:
 

geordiecolin

Meister Member
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm4
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
Near Newcastle
To answer the question whether online slots are random:

- Fact is --> WE DON'T KNOW ...and probably never will.
- Fact is also --> 100% randomness just does not exist in anything mankind has build.

Netent is using Fortuna as RNG which is a secure random number generator, but they do not state how those generated random seeds are distributed.

I look at it as a mathematician and there are umpteenth occasions where my understanding screams --> "it just can't be random" .....

Example 1 - VS battles

This is happening in each and every battle but i will take straight numbers to make it easy to follow.

- 300 players, each spinning 1x / 2 seconds = 9,000 spins / minute
- 100 battle spins are played in appr. 3 minutes = 30.000 spins
- all is totally random, right
- however, in each battle is see players who made 2-5 spins suddenly shooting to the top with some outrageous number and they keep getting more bonus rounds and more high wins, like they are getting piled up on them. I experienced it myself --> 6 bonus rounds in 100 spins, each paying min. 50x bet, on top a few high 5OAK's
- random results means this can happen, no problem with that but it happens in every battle, so where is the randomness??
- that the RNG, which is supposedly 100% random, gives all those high wins to 1, 2 or 3 players out of hundreds and that in every single battle CANNOT be random.

Just to put it in perspective:

- assume you have a giant wheel with 30,000 possible results = the amount of battle spins, of those 20 are the really high wins who get the players in the battles to the TOP3
- that is 1:1500 to hit one of those high wins
- now comes the kicker: in each and every battle those few players are hitting repeatedly exactly those few high results available on the wheel

- mathematically it can happen occasionally but for it to happen all the time comes close to "absolutely impossible" to say it is random.

Example 2 - DOA --> Double 5OAK Sheriff Star


I have more numbers on this slot but will just give this one example. The win is very rare as it can happen only in 2 combinations on Line 1+6 or Line 3+7 .....i assume it happens about 1/15 - 20,000 spins.

Now here are my numbers:

- I took 0.5 Mio spins played at each of these bet levels since i started playing DOA, played a lot more than that but I only took the first 0.5Mio spins at each of those values, obviously it took a much longer period to accumulate those @ $.4.50 - 9.00 .... but I would say that it is a pretty good sample size
- The total hits for that specific win are:

--> 0.09 - 0.36 / 0.01 denomination --> 21x the double 5OAK
--> 0.90 - 3.60 / 0.10 denomination --> 1x
--> 4.50 - 9.00 / 0.50 denomination --> 0x

Now, you can call me a big unlucky git, but those numbers just don't add up if something is totally random. You have one event happening on average every 23,800 spins at one denomination but only 1x in 0.5Mio spins at the higher denomination and never in 0.5Mio spins at the highest.

Until this day, with tons more spins at the 0.50 denomination, I have yet to hit that win once at $4.50 or $9.00. :eek:

Again, looking at it mathematically, it is sheer impossible to say "yeah, it is random"



'NUFF SAID! :rolleyes: :D

I too have played many battles and I have often wondered if you average out the RTP of every one of the 300-500 players who take part in each battle the average would be way over 100%. I bet most battles would be.
 

Harry_BKK

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Location
Balcony
I too have played many battles and I have often wondered if you average out the RTP of every one of the 300-500 players who take part in each battle the average would be way over 100%. I bet most battles would be.

Oh i am sure the overall RTP in a battle is sometimes over 100%, the max. is 50,000 spins if the battle is full - not superbly much for a slot. What I just found very strange is that concentration of high wins on a few players in each battle. It can happen but it should not in every battle if the results are truly random.
 
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